My guest is, Keith Montgomery, a principal consultant at CyberOi, who passionately supports the evolution of an inclusive educational system that brings people together to solve the world’s greatest problems and maladies.

As a serial entrepreneur in game-changing technologies, Keith has co-founded and served as an executive in companies focused on business intelligence, cloud, and big data, with clients including McGraw-Hill Companies, Avery Dennison Corporation, and Robert Half International.

Keith creates bridges between organizational and human cultures, and is proficient at building high-performing teams that optimize the use of collaboration and technology.


We Talked About…

  • 8:31 How he uses the mathematical mind and linguistic strategies to make sense of the world #sensemaking
  • 9:05 How he learned 6 languages and a became a highly sought-after specialists for nextGen technologies
  • 19:38 Why the dream world and digital world are getting more and more similar
  • 29:34 Why he is excited to use crypto as a means to give more financial sovereignty for the bottom of the pyramid #soverignty
  • 16:12 How he discerns the cult of personalities as well as the possibilities in digital media and cryptocurrencies
  • 50:53 The 6 ilities of NFT technologies
  • 24:43 The analytical and the fundamental angles he uses to find opportunities in the blockchain space
  • 90:34 The difference between spirit work vs. soul work #shadow
  • 104:57 The exponential benefits of having his own systems in areas that are important to him #systemsthinking
  • 104:18 The specific technique of Whats at risk to make fast and accurate decisions
  • 109:19 The 2 frameworks: kanban and check-in to help him make better investment decisions

Please enjoy my conversation with serial entrepreneur, Keith Montgomery.




Full Episode


Wisdom Quotes

Polymath is sensemaking Click To Tweet If I want to put things together, the only way they can look at is all the different edges of, the world around me. Language learning and mathematics, these are techniques that you, get outside yourself. Click To Tweet Language learning commands humility. And that humility allows me to start to see that maybe these things aren't as disconnected as they first appeared. Click To Tweet The digital world is like a dream. Can you grab ones and zeros that are on your Gmail account? Can you grab a Bitcoin? No, you can't really. That whole world can disappear just like a dream. Click To Tweet Digital technologies can now serve those who who are really not only needing to be served, but when they are served, they add so much to the world. You are adding not just their ability to make money and have commerce, but you're adding a… Click To Tweet All human beings should have the opportunity to see that they're not stuck. Like they think they are right Click To Tweet if I'm a like of sorts and I've been able to turn on say 10,000 lights and each one of those lights, I turn on whatever their greatness is. It's not the same as mine or whatever, but they turn on a thousand lights or 10,000 lights or more… Click To Tweet

So if you've done your work and you understand who you are and what you're about, and you see all these opportunities floating around and you go, what do I lose? So if you do your work upfront, then you can go super fast because you have… Click To Tweet


Transcript by AI

Keith Montgomery Transcript by AI


There welcome to noble warrior. My name is see KLN noble warriors were interview multi-dimensional entrepreneurs about their spiritual disciplines. So you can engineer your life with more depth impact. Meaning if you have any friends who could use more inspiration and permission to take that leap of faith, go ahead and share this episode with them.

[00:00:19] They'll thank you for. 

[00:00:21]My next guest. Is Keith Mongol. Keith is a serial entrepreneur in the area of digital assets, digital transformation, and next generation technologies. We talked about how he uses the mathematical mind in linguistic strategies to make sense of the world, how you learn six languages and became a highly sought after specialist for next generation technologies.

[00:00:45] Why the dream world and the digital world are getting more and more similar 

[00:00:50]and why he is excited to use cryptocurrencies as a way to give more financial sovereignty for the bottom of the pyramid, 

[00:00:58] how he discerns the cult of personalities, as well as the possibilities in digital media and cryptocurrency.

[00:01:06] The six ilities of the NFT technologies, 

[00:01:11] the analytical and the fundamental angles that he use to find opportunities in the blockchain space. 

[00:01:21]Then we get into men's work. The difference between spirit work and soul work, 

[00:01:27]they explanation of benefits are having his own systems in areas that are important to him. 

[00:01:34] The specific techniques of what is a risk to make a fast and accurate decisions. 

[00:01:40] Please enjoy my conversation with serial entrepreneur, Keith Montgomery. 

[00:01:44] CK Lin: [00:01:44] How many languages do you speak? I'd say three. And then maybe six. Okay. Yeah. Yes, Do my list them off. So that way people get a taste of the variety.

[00:01:58] Sure, English, Chinese, German injuring. Yeah. Mandarin, correct. Yeah. And in Spanish, Italian and French. So let's start out with the fascination with language and then use that as a way to break it down into like how you look at the world. Yeah. When you w where's the passion coming from and how do you approach learning a new language?

[00:02:30] I think it always was with me if I hear sounds I'd want to mimic them or something, it's just like a world that was out there. The biggest thing now that you asked that question in high school language was into wasn't my strength. It wasn't a thing that I wanted to do. And and it didn't make sense where, I'm from in Ohio.

[00:02:51] So the the real awakening was when I actually traveled for the first time and I was going to university in Germany and I realized people use German in Germany. And it was just it's, it sounds so silly, but it's one of those things that it, I see this over and over again in life. And I talk about the digital transformations and all these things is when we get around people like us, which is usually who we work with, we drink our Kool-Aid and we don't realize there's a whole world outside of us.

[00:03:23] And. It's the whole world. So the fascination was, Oh my gosh, this is useful. And I need to use this to survive. And then the Germans have this I'm saying called the bookshop conch and height. It means like the sickness of the alphabetical letters. And it means right when you start to read, when you start to actually become, ravenously curious, there's no stopping it.

[00:03:52] And so when you're learning that language where it's you learn German, next thing is, Oh, no. As I was like taking books with me on the, trains and I was just absorbing, And once that happened, once that light was turned on, it allowed me to travel and allow me to do things so much.

[00:04:12] It's so much easier than, colleagues. And, one, one example is where my colleagues were. We had traveled to Eastern Europe. It was like a kind of a weekend trip. And I realized that they had been more in the American schools where they had spoken English with each other because they could I would to, if we're speaking of this right now, it's easier.

[00:04:32] But I wasn't enabled that way because of the way I was dropped off in Germany. It was just a happenstance problem.  It forced me to sink or swim and and I, swam. And so that light came on and, I realized the more a person can understand what the heck people are saying around them.

[00:04:53] You could actually just be along with people, be there with the, with people, connect with them and learn different ways of thinking. And the more ways you learn of thinking them, the more like quivers you have in your arrows you have in your quiver, right? So that you're able to as a psych, okay.

[00:05:09] This problem could be solved this way, or it could be solved this way, or it could be this way. So, I think the fascination and the passion became apparent where it was one of those aha moments that, Hey, I can do this. And and I started getting these philosophies around it too, is I realized it was probably mostly about pride and fear.

[00:05:30] And and I have this saying that I tell people when they say I can't learn languages. And I say if you went to China, let's say you went to Northeastern China where I, went the first time and taught at the university there. And you find a one and a half year old boy or girl or a two year old, and they're learning Chinese.

[00:05:54] Obviously they're speaking Chinese. That's what they use in China. If a one and a half and a two year old in China can speak Chinese. Do you think you at 30 or 40 or whatever it is, cause definitely, usually you're talking to adults and say, I just, I'm stuck in my ways. There's no way with a one and a half year old in China can learn Chinese.

[00:06:13] You can learn Chinese. You just have to get over yourself, understand that it's a language and that was made to be used. And your, brain is much more developed than a one and a half year old, two year old, four year old, even, that would be, it would be fluently moving through and saying mom dad, whatever.

[00:06:32] And all the different things I need to eat and use the bathroom and all the really important things in life that you need to learn. So those ahas allow a mindset for people to go, Oh yeah. Good point. So then the next thing is, it the same thing that happened to me is like, a daily rain that's coming down.

[00:06:55] The same thing goes with ha if you want to learn a language, completely overwhelm yourself. That's how I feel about anything really is if I want to get something new in my life, just overwhelm myself and my brain will rise to the challenge. I like that. So maybe may do a quick recap. So what you said is you start out with a ravenous curiosity in play yourself in a place of single swim.

[00:07:20] And then with the mentality in my. This narrative of pride or fear and then, also the functional practicality of it, the functional skill of allowing you to travel. So all of these combined allows you to learn a language very quickly. And the reason I asked this question, I want to start off with language because language is a little bit more relatable.

[00:07:46] Yeah. Yeah it's a little bit more relatable versus something that's a little bit more esoteric, like cautiousness or men's work or parenting or mentoring or, even like blockchain, these a little bit more esoteric. 

[00:08:01] So I love that we start off with language you had talked about I think it was your a team's mission is to use communication as a way to bridge different worlds together. So can you share with us a little bit about.  Why did you want to use communication or language or Knology as different paths to bring people together?

[00:08:25]A lot of places, but if I just had to come like with my gut, it was the fact that I think most of the world, when I look at it, it doesn't make sense. So it was sense-making and if I want to put things together, the only way they can look at is all the different edges of, the world around me.

[00:08:47] If I want to solve a problem, I don't just go into the problem. I walk all around the perimeter of that problem. And, the other thing is, when we talk about language learning and as a mathematician to it, these are techniques that you, get outside yourself. Language learning is really great because it, commands, humility.

[00:09:10] You screw up all the time. You're not going to be this curated perfection. I would never say that I have all the vocabulary in Chinese or in German or whatever. It's I have accepted a level of mindset or the way they think or way of other culture thinks because I surrender to that. Part of that surrendering is that humility and that humility allows me to start to see that maybe these things aren't as disconnected as they first appeared.

[00:09:40] So the world is what drove me. I think mostly was like, Whoa, that doesn't seem right. And those people treating those people that way, that doesn't compute or that doesn't, work. So what is that? And and then also the things that say I'll see in my local newspaper, in the United States, and I look at a newspaper outside the United States and it sees us very differently or we see them differently, et cetera.

[00:10:07] So it was more of Whoa, that can't be right. That's not us, or that's not them. And and, all of the above seem to be true. So the humility allows for me to go, okay. I'm not too arrogant to believe that I'm the center of the world or the U S is the center of the world or where I was raised or how I was raised as the only way.

[00:10:28] Therefore, all the polymath is just really, to me since making being able to go about life and have a good full life and, be able to impart it to others that I think that's very important too, is it's not just about me. If I find some fire that I can see my way through and I can give someone a torch or a lighter better.

[00:10:53] That, that, that would be better. So that that would be my first gut answer is it's more of a reaction to something where it's like, Oh, this doesn't make sense. And so it sense making, Oh, I love that. So in your bio used this line, Keith uses a mathematician's mind and linguist strategies to allow him to set powerful visions, build high performing team and lead initiative.

[00:11:17]So I like that. So break it down for me. Let's say if I'm me, I'm taking this new crypto stuff and NFT, because I think fundamentally shifts something.

[00:11:28]Break it down for me with your mathematicians, mind linguists strategies to help me make more sense of this new technologies and the possibility that lays had. Okay. So yeah, it's I actually mean something when I do write it too. It's not some kind of blurb, so a mathematician's mind.

[00:11:50]They're different types of mathematicians, but one of the, again, the opportunities is a mathematician is to pick apart why the math. Works. And so you have to do these proofs, right? You learn logic and you learn all the different tools that allow you to think through how did someone arrive at this simple equation?

[00:12:10] And so when you have to go through a proof or you have to go through solving equation for X and X is a very complicated thing to do, and you find yourself solving paper, you're basically trying to write it out. And 20 pages later, you're coming to the wrong answer. And somewhere in those 20 pages, you have to have some level of rigor around, around understanding how you went wrong or where you went wrong.

[00:12:37] And and I wouldn't say I'm the most detail oriented. That's not my mindset, but then there's, I have this pattern capability where I zero in to that's a problem. That's a problem. And so I think what's important is as if you, want to fly or whatever, say that you were talking about cryptocurrency and I don't, see it as a cryptocurrency.

[00:13:01] I see it as a FinTech evolution, and evolution of how do we use technology to enable better behavior, more, be more, people winning, et cetera. The problem is in this space is it's filled with what I would consider a lot of promotion. And and if you're in any kind of executive role or any kind of role where you're running a company, you always know that when people come in the door, like a salesperson comes to door, they're going to give you the upside.

[00:13:31] They're always going to give you upside. But so I always start with what, give me the downside, right? Give me how you arrived here and what could go wrong in all these different things. I know you're going to give me the upside. I got it. I got your brochure. I got it. But tell me the other side of the story.

[00:13:46] And I think the rigor around that as a mathematician and in the mindset of let's look at this whole thing, let's examine this and let's see how you came to your conclusion. What I find is more and more the, amount of innovation that has come into this, space, because it really is about money or about finance and wealth.

[00:14:14] It starting to move a lot of people to actually create something that is solving for some kind of X. And that gets exciting because when someone promotes, it says I've solved for X, then you can go back and go, did you, and then could you use another technology to do it? And more and more, you're starting to see actually wait, this technology as is useful.

[00:14:36] And it is something that is not going to be You use the cloud or use other different technologies that you could just basically do it so much less expensively, so much easier and probably more secure. So, yeah, that's what I mean by that. And then the linguist, I was already talking about that, the level of humility to look at it from a child's mind or from a mind of emptiness of every time you start to learn a language, you start like almost like an empty tablet.

[00:15:07] Yes. You have structures in your brain that are set up and all these things. Yes. We do know there, there are methods that are there, but the fact is, the more you can wipe that slate clean, the more you can accept another grammatical the way syntax works and language like in German you put the, verb at the end of the sentence, there's a level of delayed ratification to understand what the action about this sentence is.

[00:15:32] And it forces the person to have a level of rigor to go through that. And as in Chinese grammar, there is grammar everybody. There's a lot of people who don't understand Chinese has a lot of grammar. But if you. If you come at it from we're speaking English and I say, this is the grammar.

[00:15:49] It should be. Then I completely start to superimpose my, mindset or what my understanding is on something that is not, it has its own history. It has its own way of thinking and has all the cultures that are part of it. So when I think about finance, when I think about cryptocurrency, when I think about all this, it's extremely esoteric, it's dangerously.

[00:16:12] So it's cult level esoteric. And what I mean, say that, what did you say that Colt level esoteric say more about that? Because there are different things. When you look at a cult, there are different signs that you're in a cult, or this is a cult and it's not just a cult for religion. It could be a corporation, it could be anything it's a, there's a leader, right?

[00:16:35] And without that leader, everybody's lost and there are certain levels of control. If you don't do such and such, you are ex-communicated, you're out, right? So you basically, I give, I joined this organization and I give up my power and please don't kick me out because my identity is you. And so there are different things that occur for people when they're promoting things that they start to really drink their own Kool-Aid, which is from a cult, right?

[00:17:00] The idea of the Jim Jones called in Africa, that what had happened, people drank Kool-Aid if you, know the story of between behind the Jim Jones thing and what, I'm saying. So the very dangerous thing, when things are esoteric, This is why digital transformations. I see them as very different than, Hey, I'm going to, we're going to look at a corporation.

[00:17:19] We're gonna look at ourselves and we're going to put all these technologies in there and you guys are going to be just amazing, right? Everything's going to be working so much better, and you're gonna be able to track everything from knowledge management and you'll be able to execute all these different things.

[00:17:33] Those things are taking technology and running the business better or running your life better. But now you're getting into the place where you're saying I'm putting my entire livelihood, literally it's currency. It's, going to be wealth in this world that the majority of people have no idea and understanding what it is.

[00:17:56] And so all the promotion is it's great. It's whatever. But if you've ever tried to use a wallet in cryptocurrency, you better go through a very strong process of security, like cyber security. You better go through a very strong process of just the computer code itself, understanding how this matches this and that.

[00:18:16] That is not a swipe, the credit card moment that most of people in the world, or I look in my pocket and I have a few dollars that I can give you for excess. Like it is not the user-friendly environment that's being promoted. And moreover lots of people are hacked. Lots of people are losing all of their livelihood that they put in that wallet.

[00:18:38] So this is why it's so important. To have that mindset of how did we get here to this? What was promoted, who is handing us Kool-Aid and then back in and say, but there's something good here. There is a reason people went here, they needed something, they wanted something. And so when you start it back into it, you start to actually see what could be very, useful to people in their everyday lives versus hype.

[00:19:06] And me by now, most things are hype. And I know that drives a lot of markets and things like that, but I think it's also a very dangerous thing. So I bring up the word cult because there are personalities that drive this hype and make people think this thing is great, right? Is all ready to go and just wrapped up in a bow and it's Christmas time or whatever, holiday you celebrate, it's ready.

[00:19:32] And, so it's not it's, a work in progress, but it's a very important work in progress from the fact that we are no matter what we think we're moving from that physical world to trusting the digital world and that digital world is. So as, you use the word esoteric, intangible, you can't grab it.

[00:19:51] A friend of mine, who's a long-time mentor. This is. He's opened my mind in so many ways. He's in his eighties. And he's definitely at the end of his life. And, he's been a friend for over 20 years, a deep friend, and he what he talks about is, so it's so simple and yet it's so powerful is he'll talk about I go to sleep at night.

[00:20:17] I have a dream and I dream about amazing things and things that I'm able to acquire a million dollars in a bag. And I swear, it's real. I swear. It's real. And I wake up and I, look for it. I look for the bag in my, on my pillow, on my bed. And there's no bag because the dream wasn't real.

[00:20:37] It was this esoteric world. The digital world is like that. Can you grab ones and zeros that are on your Gmail account? Do you, can you grab a Bitcoin? No, you can't really, that whole world can disappear just like a dream. And, you don't necessarily have like capacity to do that. Now I can go in depth about that.

[00:21:00] Bitcoin's a little stronger in some ways about that, but the digital transformation, this is why it's easy to get lost along the way in the dream or the dream state. And that's why cults that, that, that's why I brought that up. You, drop a lot of gyms and may actually underline a few things.

[00:21:20] So you talked about my mathematicians, Myra, looking at things systematically, it really trace every step of the way, the logic on the way, then linguistic strategies, keeping an open mind without super impose your existing mindset or framework around it. So that way you can learn the hidden rules, the grammars underneath that.

[00:21:43] So let's start there. And then you talked about the powerful vision that people set and you, a cautiousness really just buying into drinking the Kool-Aid and so on Leaving something that's more ready than it actually is. That's roughly what you just cover it. Yeah, roughly. We can make the assumption that we will get the upside from everybody out there in the system.

[00:22:08] It's our job to start to actually get to why did they solve for X and is this solving for X and the best way. Okay, perfect. Great. So looking at a new problem again, we're going to get a little meta you and I were one of the reasons I'm excited to talk to you because you and I were systems thinkers. So we can speak in more meta terms , but also please remind me to bring it back so that way.

[00:22:32] Sure. Yeah. And a new problem. How do you go about identified the 80 20. The 20% of the thing, the concept or the tool, or the understanding such that we basically grasp crock 80% of what's happening. How do you go about really just like me jumping into crypto or FinTech or tea, go ahead and identify.

[00:22:58] Here are the 20% that's going to make eight 80% of the concept so are in science, right? A lot of it is the experience of just seeing people say things and it doesn't pan out and you start to see those patterns. So there's an art there of just instantly seeing this looks like that pattern.

[00:23:23] It's starting to look like that. My, my answer is I go back to the feet on the ground. So we talked about, let's not be meta. Let's talk about how people who are in a cold culture, like where I've come from in the winter, it can get to 20 below zero. And if you get in a car and drive somewhere, you have to have a project manager's mindset.

[00:23:51] You have to have the things in your trunk. If you break down in a car, cars, break down

[00:23:59] Stuff, happens. You don't survive. There's a very tangible thing. That's very, it's very real. You're not in the matrix. You're not a simulation. You will freeze to death unless you get someone to come to you right away. And this is how I think it's very important. Same thing. If you go, if you come from farmland, if you plant the seed and you were able to take care of that seed in the way that it needs to be taken care of you have food and you could feed the world, right?

[00:24:27] The bread basket of the world type of, concept. So I find that one of the most important things is to never drink that Kool-Aid so much I, get excited. I am a visionary along with you and other people, right? We want to create and blaze trails, but the real 80 20 comes from do my cousins who are not they might not have the technology background or whatever would they use this, matter, does this really matter?

[00:24:58] And it becomes like a UX experience, but it's not the theoretical Silicon Valley UX experience. It's like really matter. Will this withstand the test of time? So my father always told me, right? It's look at things. Things will come and go. Lots of things, fads, cults, whatever. But something that has withstood the test of time should look at it.

[00:25:21] Whether you like religion or are you like this? Look at it because it was stood the test of time. For some reason it, fulfilled something. And, so that 80, 20 moment where I look at it and go how would a farmer look at this. How would that really help them? Or how would a person that really just is living their life and trying to date or trying to do this, or whatever, like really, why would they want to do this?

[00:25:48] Not because they were sold, not because of the promotion, not because everybody in their friends were doing it at the time. And all of a sudden five years later, this whole thing is just everybody woke up and went, Whoa, what were we thinking? But it was more of, Oh my gosh. So I can take certain things like the blockchain and I can start to make it travel.

[00:26:14] Meaning like we talk about NFTs or we talk about different things. I can actually start to empower people. Let's say people who weren't banked and different countries, like a lot of the world's unbanked. And I can not only empower them, giving them a currency. That's one thing they've had wait, back up one sentence on bank financing.

[00:26:35] They don't have a bank. To put their money or their currency. Is that correct? Correct. Yeah. A lot of the world is unbanked, which means they don't get to take loans or put their money in a bank. They go, they work, they cash their check with a local person who takes a big chunk of that. But they are performing services for them.

[00:26:55] But they're, not in this scenario where it's like, Hey, I want to take a loan to buy a house. I have some consistency or a loan to buy a car or alone, alone to start a business. And so they're outside of that system. And so they just that's the system that they live in and the way the system is currently money is not smart.

[00:27:19] Money is not it doesn't have any utility. Other than the things I just talked about, a bank has only three basic utilities. I can take and hold your money. Like a vault. I can loan you money. I can have something where I can loan you at  a certain interest or whatever.

[00:27:42] And, so what, I was getting to with the unbanked side of things is. It can't look like the old world, we know has a system that has, been created. And that's where we are right now. We can say, Oh, that's sucks. And we're going to do, we're going to bank the unbanked in this way.

[00:27:58] We're going to create, we're going to use this old system, but we can't get to the new way before we like understand that there are things in the old way. Great, really great. We've evolved. The systems of systems has evolved, but then there's a new way of being able to say, what if I were to make money intelligent?

[00:28:18] What if I were to put program in money so that if I had something like a, collectible or, I was mining something in some country no longer would another country just come in, take that and then make a lot of money with it. Now I actually can put something like a crypto currency against it. And I can also start to incentivize everyone who is in that value chain.

[00:28:43] Now that's not meta at all. The ma the value chain is who found the oil, who found the gold, who found the, whatever they get incentivized because they're inside the the, compensation trail, right? And, the same thing goes all the way down. So that one person doesn't end up being the most.

[00:29:06] Wealthy in the current system. Cause that's how current money it's, dumb. It's a dollar just travels and does its thing. As opposed to I can program that dollar. Now it gets interesting because we can utilize the old way. This is back to 80 20. You don't want to throw out the baby in the bath water together.

[00:29:25] Just because the bath water is dirty, we're still here as people babies. So that's what I was trying to say is you can now serve those who who are really not only meeting and be served, but when they are served, they add so much to the world. So you are adding not just their ability to make money and, co have commerce, but you're adding a whole level of, dignity to, the life that they can basically be part of, everything that's out there as opposed to being pariahs in some ways I, it sounds weird, but it's like to a system, not to people, but to a system, so you said a lot of concept again, let me actually backtrack a recap. Okay. So what you said is when you look at a new problem, 80 20, is you, instead of buying into the hype, you really look at, the, core of it at the, core of it, what is the first principle thinking, right?

[00:30:38] What is the, utility value that my cousin or this everyday person use this thing? Because there is the utility value and there is the perceived value, all that stuff aside perceive value aside all the hyper side utility value. Could this person use it? And then you started to really look at it in, in, in terms of crypto as a, as an example this is nothing more than a more efficient mechanism to allow money to travel.

[00:31:10] In addition to the, old way of looking at money, loaning money, holding money passing money and et cetera to now, you can then embedded in itself there's smart contracts. So that way the everyone in the entire value chain, there's a more egalitarian type of approach more, trackability approach, and thus unleash the power from the bottom of the pyramid.

[00:31:40] Give them back more sovereignty, so to speak, dignity, so to speak. So that way they're not no longer beholden to be to be outside of the current system. Is that roughly what you just said? Yeah, that's roughly how and I liked that. Use the word sovereignty. I use it as well. It's, a heavy word, but I think that it's a powerful world word.

[00:32:03] If a person has experienced a level of freedom that says, I can say what I want, as long as I'm not hurting somebody, I can do what I want. As long as I'm not hurting somebody. There's a level of. Wow unleashing a human being so that, that sovereignty is there. And human beings use money to see that as sovereignty.

[00:32:24] I don't think it's the only thing for sovereignty is matter of fact, I think the mind is where most of the, most of it all goes when it comes to you could have people in a prison and they have their own sovereignty and freedom more than a person way outside of the prison, the prisoners of war, for example, playing like all kinds of things in their mind that they're so free compared to your normal person that's an incorporation that's I haven't been I'm, a a slave to the system or I'm whatever.

[00:32:54] So, yeah, I think that sovereignty is a very, powerful word to use and it is, it's a good goal to have, but along with that sovereignty, it needs to come that level of, responsibility. I love that. So I'm very curious about where does drive to empower others to do that because with every interaction I have with you, bring a lot of, there's a core desire to really empower others, to to be free, whether it is in your mind or financial 

[00:33:27] so where did that strong desire come from? I think it was when I learned the language, it was this No, I wasn't even in Germany and Austria that long, but it was just life altering for me. And when I, came back, my father said how was it? And I said I would, give up years in prison for the last five months because I, experienced a level of freedom that I've never experienced before.

[00:33:59] I I, was a kid saying that in college, of course I would never want to go to prison. And never even want to imagine what a human has to be going through when they go into prison. But it was a, very serious statement for me to make. And I talk about this matrix and I talked about the matrix way before the movie.

[00:34:25] Cause I thought about in math, a matrix that looks like tic-tac-toe like a, lot of basically lines that you're, trying to solve again and make it much more efficient. And you're following flows of energy or flows of, numbers. And, when I S when you see them, they're all related in some ways like, so to Sudoku, is that the game?

[00:34:49] How you say it? Yeah. It's like you, you see how things can be related. And if you're one of those numbers in the middle of this giant multi-billion numbers, Sudoku game, How do you get free to see outside the game? And I was freed to see outside the game. I was, I saw another culture. I wasn't beholden to all the rules of where I came from, even though come from good people and all this there's great rules, great people, but they have their flaws.

[00:35:21] They have, everybody does this. This side has its flaws too, but now I was free to look at and go, Oh my God. I was always worried about doing this, like being this way in society because these people would react and these people would react and, get back to my father or whatever. And I was stuck in this matrix.

[00:35:42] And so being able to pull out of one matrix to another matrix allowed me to have that level of, freedom. And when I realized that was possible, I said, geez, all human beings should have the opportunity to see that they're not stuck. Like they think they are right. They're not, it's like human beings are like, I, it sounds dark, but I think we're barreling down the road to really extincting ourselves.

[00:36:08] Really? This is, a zero sum game. Even in the universities and places where you think that people are supposed to be collaborating and all this stuff, it's like a zero sum game. And then it's like barreling down the road that way. And, there's a point where if someone can just.

[00:36:25] Allow a person to get outside and go, wait, there's this big picture here that you're stuck in that other world. That if you just pull out, you realize this isn't the only way this isn't the, this isn't the the zero sum game, isn't the only way to exist. And so, I think the biggest thing there CK is that if a person tastes that level of freedom, it was like, it's almost a, it's a weird feeling, but it's almost a duty or some kind of compelling because it's like I don't know how to describe it.

[00:37:08] It probably how people describe religion. I'm guessing it's like, Hey, I found this. I found God or whatever. It's I want to, it's I, don't know. I'm not smart enough to understand God and, religion, but I can be smart enough to know that I did experience something where I was free from a matrix for a small period of time, which allowed me to think differently and allow me to understand that there must be billions, if not more, matrix matrices that are out there.

[00:37:38] And they all are all stuck inside there. Multi-billion SU so Sudoku, I always say it wrong. So whatever they're, stuck in there. And they don't realize that every time they make a move and like in a spiderweb it, it, affects this thing over here. And over here they're, stuck because there's so many layers.

[00:37:56] And the older, the culture is as different cultures have ancient histories, that's even a longer matrix. So you're even stuck inside a generational matrix and, S and matrices of matrices. So it's, like, how does a person truly get free from that? There are ways, and that's the, thing that all my methods and the way I go about things it's that bookstore in cotton Heights you really have, it's a, real ravenous curiosity of how what's another way or another thing we can learn that will turn on the light over here.

[00:38:29] Turn the light on for this person. Because the theory I have is if I'm a like of sorts and I've been able to turn on say 10,000 lights and each one of those lights, I turn on whatever their greatness is. It's not the same as mine or whatever, but they turn on a thousand lights or 10,000 lights or more right now you have a mentality or a mindset that isn't about I'm the light, it's more of how do I turn on lights?

[00:38:58] And then people that get out of their own traps, right? How to then what do you do? So then the question becomes that it's so if someone knows that you were in a game, let's say the life like game of life was a game and you won the game, then what? It's that moment where you became president or whatever it is if you've seen was it Robert Redford movie, the candidate?

[00:39:29] I think it is. He rises to the point to that. He and he, like shockingly all of a sudden becomes, I forget, what would the, what the role was? I don't think it was president but, there was at the end of the movie. It was now what, yeah, I won the game and I'm now this important political figure. Wait a minute.

[00:39:49] What's next? And I think that question is such a great question for people to get to. And so if you can get people to that question, they realize they've won some game and there's nothing more powerful than a person having that level of sovereignty and going, Whoa. Okay. Let's, go to the let's see what's next and in, and be able to enjoy life better.

[00:40:12] Yeah, man. Yeah. You really touch upon the core of why I started Nobel warrior in the first place. Because ultimately what we're coming at this freedom, this sense of freedom, that sense of sovereignty from multiple angles and I interview different people when they touched on it. Did they never arrive?

[00:40:35] There's always the, it's a, it's an infinite game. You when you, achieve financial freedom and go after consciousness, when maybe when a Bernie man or you have some creative epiphany, the game doesn't end, it continues forward. But when we ask different people with different capital questions, come on really grasp at it, really come and come at it, talking about this eternal Dow basically, right?

[00:41:03] Like what is the sense of freedom that's available to us at any given moment, whatever it is that you do. And then, more lights gets turned on. Yeah. And one thing that occurred to me after having done about 120 episodes and I have had 120 similar conversations is this, it's also this whatever ripple effect that we made when we have a conversation with someone turn on a light, as you said earlier, it's it's it's it's, intergenerational, it doesn't stop.

[00:41:43] So, it keeps going whatever impact that we make. So, thanks for sharing that bringing, it back to why I wanted to do noble war in the first place. So with that said let's let's make it even more concrete. Crypto to me has that financial incentive built in.  If, freedom sense of freedom is ultimately what we're going after and unleashing the creativity than a dignity of the bottom of the pyramid and really everyone what mechanisms or in terms of fine tuning, the incentives that you have come across that shows real promise to this idea that we're talking about.

[00:42:30] Have you come across anything? I think it's certain to peek its head out. But I think it's mostly a if you think about a kid who has a new toy and they get to play with that new toy and has all these facets, I think that's what we're seeing right now. And we are seeing people become wealthy and crypto whatever that means.

[00:43:07]Have I seen something that really can deliver on its promotion? I have to say and I'm going to, it's going to be hard and I'm sure some colleagues and friends, or what are you kidding? But we have to be hard on ourselves because the stakes are very, important here that we are pulling the old world and we're building a bridge to it, which we've built tirelessly to, protect people, to help people, et cetera.

[00:43:41] And I still see that. It's so new that people are mostly playing with this. So you have collectibles, you have these things, I'd like lots of play, lots of people trying to reinvent a bank. I'm trying to do things that find out. The thing about it is in the systems that are out there, they, you have to, in order to make them work with regulations, people do all these backflips and all these different things that are, you have to use this token to this token list and this thing, and this unlocks this, and then therefore you can pull this in and you're like, what?

[00:44:23] Cause it's I can just imagine how it works and who doesn't have any background in technology or just any kind of systems thinking. So I'd have to say that. I don't see there are a few projects that have promise. So let's talk about Ethereum it has some real drawbacks still, and we can talk about those because they have to be solved, but there is really something to be said around how it's decentralized, if you're really going to use de-centralization and that, that concept.

[00:45:09] And not talk about distribution, right? A distributed systems. It's decentralized systems. And you, can get to a place where a country really can't control it or an entity can't control it. That's an, interesting experiment that's gone on, right? Cause Bitcoin, can be like you could have a bunch of miners in one country such as China, right?

[00:45:33] And if you have that capacity, you can have, what's called a 51% attack. You can essentially do something untoured when it comes to that network because you have a Bitcoin's purpose is to move a Bitcoin. That was that's, what its smart contract or it's real purposes is to be able to move and transfer on a ledger Bitcoin.

[00:45:58] And I simplified it a lot and people will say, Oh, but suffice it to say, it's not programmable money. And it's not pro programmable systems as well as it is a very hard to they call it mining. But it's you only have two, you have one specific type of computer and you have to be upgraded all the time.

[00:46:20] It's a called an ASIC chip computer. And so all those are basically built in China as well. So you have. And, I'm not, anti-China Chinese, as I lived there, I taught university. But you have one place. That's centralization. You have one place that basically builds all the chips that mind's it.

[00:46:36] You have one place that basically has most of the miners because the electricity is inexpensive. And honestly, I think they the people in China were way ahead of the game and understanding the value of this thing. But but, then you have this Ethereum thing and that you can mind with your phone.

[00:46:54] You can mind, you have to have powerful computers as well, but not an ASIC. Cause the AC kind of goes at the speed of light. It just does one thing and that's all it does. And it solves that one mathematical equation that cryptography, then you have, it sounds very much like the Chinese culture really.

[00:47:13] Oh, I would have to think about that statement. Very, intense to just do one thing. One thing really, well. Yeah. Yeah. So valuable to the world that so many perspectives that I've learned in China, but to not take that tangent bate the, project would be, I think that is around true decentralization where they can start to solve the problems.

[00:47:43] That are caused by that. So if your listeners and people listening to this, aren't, don't have the technical background. There are problems that, cause for example, it takes an immense amount of electricity to use the, network, the decentralized network, it's called proof of work. You prove that your computer did the work and your computer to do the work because you're pumping out a lot of electricity and different systems like your GPU's and your, graphic graphics cards and things like that, they take a mince amount of work for example, let's say 950 a, was it a watt?

[00:48:22] So if you have nine and a half, 100 light bulbs burning all the time, 24 seven you're, bringing that level of energy in, in, in the system. And and that's just one computer, right? So if if you have several of these, you have these farms of these, you could just guess how much electricity is being used.

[00:48:40] It's a problem, but it can be solved because more money gets put into this. The more innovation can happen, but you still, you can't look away from it and say no, but because a general processing unit, a GPU or whatever you can use a regular computer. They could be all over the world. One country is not going to have the market on it.

[00:49:07] And so you might have some things around electricity, but for the most part. You have a decentralized system that actually could function. And that's what it's done in some ways where people have built like businesses on the Ethereum network. And that's why I see it as a very powerful system.

[00:49:26] And am I espousing people go and invest in the theory of know they have their problems. There's all kinds of things that are there. There's all kinds of other things that are coming along the way, but nobody has really done anything that allows this promise of decentralization to, really happen except for Ethereum, in my opinion.

[00:49:49] And, I think there's better technologies, honestly, but they just don't have the user base. And therefore I've seen this over years the decades technology comes and goes, it could be the best out there. It doesn't, mean it's going to win it. It matters if people are adopting and working with you and innovating on your network and doing the things that are necessary.

[00:50:10] So I guess if I had any answer, which I probably shouldn't it would be something that would be useful utilizing the whole point of what blockchain is trying to espouse and, make it useful. Yeah. Obviously you're not here to tell the future was just speculating, like everyone else, you know what, we're looking at it from a systems thinker point of view.

[00:50:36] So let me backtrack, let's look at some of the unique properties of blockchain. Let's look at fundamentals. And then you mentioned maybe it's worthwhile to mention some of those interoperate interoperability, some of those things. Can you mention, yeah. Yeah. In, in technology, like in cloud and when you're building different large enterprise systems, the ilities are is it scalability, right?

[00:51:06] Is it is it inter-operable interoperability and security, even though it's not an ility what, are they things that you need in order to make sure that system functions in the way that the users will be able to actually work with? So scalability blockchain has that.

[00:51:26] So if you have a copy of whatever the ledger is across every computer in the world can that scale and it's proven it can scale enough. And, so therefore all people can continue to build their businesses or build on new ideas and these smart contracts all over the place, all over the world doing all kinds of different things, because all smart contract is as a program saying, I'm giving you instructions when you come to me and something is met, like a behaviors met that you can move through and, execute on these instructions and it's complete meaning it's, they call it touring complete.

[00:52:08] And the idea is that it's the, next ility would be immutability, right? What that means is once it's touring complete, it's like compiled code it's out there, and there's no kind of tearing it back. You ha you could say, I'm not gonna use it anymore or whatever, but you basically have created this being that is sovereign, if you will, and goes out there.

[00:52:32] Now, I think it still is not as immutable as everybody thinks. However immutability is one of the ill abilities. And so the concept of blockchain is that the more we put blocks in the blockchain, the more secure it, it can become. Because you are calling back to different blocks in that blockchain and you have to solve for X again and again and it just gets, further and further layered.

[00:53:00] So what does immutability mean is, Hey, once it's on that blockchain, let's say something happened a year ago on the Ethereum network. I could go to ether scan and I could check out that transaction and I don't necessarily need to see the person's name, but I see the wallet address. I see the technical address that happened from this to that.

[00:53:19] And I can see what, occurred, meaning it's on a ledger, it's a big ledger in the sky or whatever. It's like this thing that is forevermore. So it's immutable in, in theory. And so I keep saying that because can it be hacked maybe? But if it's not hacked and the know the security is getting better and better, and you know that the ledger, you can count on it, then you start to realize, Hey, nobody can fiddle with the numbers like you can with a centralized system.

[00:53:51] And so if you're in a centralized system, say, I don't know if you've seen like movie office space or something where the guy has a server and he changes some parts of it. So he gets a fraction, of a penny that's sent to his bank account. So no one necessarily notices he's doing that from a centralized server.

[00:54:08] He's going in to the program and he can change databases. He can change people's names. He could change things in systems. Yes, there are controls and corporate environments, but. So, hard, you could change things. It's not immutable, right? Let's not go down that rabbit hole. Scalability, immutability, what's next interoperability.

[00:54:29] I think that's going to be the key one. As a matter of fact I can't probably come up with all the ilities in the morning here, but interoperability because let's say you have you have the ability to use these smart contracts. As long as someone has a, technical system, like they call it a wallet, but it's not like your bill folder or whatever. It's not that kind of wallet. It's a technical program that allows you to recognize and basically hold your ledger. Your copy of your ledger. So that you can say to the world, I can interface with the blockchain. You can recognize me, but that's really important because if you've ever traveled in other countries and you try to use a credit card that you can use the United States and you can't use your credit card in that country, you're really in trouble.

[00:55:21] Do you have their currency? No, it didn't bring any currency with me. It didn't do any exchanges. Oh, what do you do? Cause you're not interoperable. You don't have that ability to, travel. So, when you have yeah, you have this. Traveling capability and describing it, th they have these different standards, right?

[00:55:48] So ERC 20 as a standard, if you have a wallet to the ERC 20, you basically use that standard to inter-operate interoperable B inter-operate. And let's use the NFT world. For example, let's say there's a marketplace, I'll lot eBay, but it's its own marketplace that is for NFTs. And I list, I create a smart contract.

[00:56:15] Basically I create an NFT that's ERC 20 compliant, but a theorem, it's a theorem network. I can list it on that marketplace. If I'm not satisfied with that marketplace, all my data and listing I could take and put it somewhere else, or I can sell it to someone else outside that marketplace, as long as it's still my property, if I put it in the marketplace and it gets resold, that's a whole other thing. But the point is that you have freedom because I'm not just stuck with, if I listed on Amazon, I had to go through all this stuff I listed on Amazon. It doesn't come out of Amazon and go on to eBay easily. It doesn't come out of eBay and go on to Etsy or whatever it doesn't.

[00:56:58] These, are different centralized systems that don't allow them to inter-operate with each other. In this case, I can take this entity, this asset and move it. So if you take the other ilities that you're pointing out before is liquidity and tradability liquidity just says, are there people out there doing this?

[00:57:17] Are there people that are actually trading it? Is there enough people in this network where they're buying what you're selling? And if there's not, you're not liquid. So therefore you created this great thing. Oh my God, it's the greatest technology in the world, but nobody's using it. This is what I was saying about why Ethereum is so important.

[00:57:31] There's so many people using it. There's so many people interacting with this thing. They're building all businesses on this thing. So, if I know that's the 

[00:57:40] Keith Montgomery: [00:57:40] case, and I know that people are out there buying it, now I'm liquid. And, I can have these marketplaces where I could put it on a marketplace and if it's not working, it's not liquid enough.

[00:57:49] I pull it off the marketplace and I put it on this marketplace. So I can do that. Or someone else in say, China has a wallet that has ERC compliant. I can go ahead and they, can buy it easily and put it on their wallet. So it's none of this kind of like a problem where it's are you in Yuan?

[00:58:09] Or am I an us dollar? Are we in the UN? But it's, not, that it's like it, you basically have this consistent network, and then you bring up tradability too. Let's take a step back when we talk about tradability there's the fungible world and the non fungible world.

[00:58:26] And for people who don't know the difference, there's a way to easily describe it. A fungible token or a fungible currency is consistent. I know that if I give you a dollar, you can give me 100 pennies back. I would not prefer that it would be heavy or clunky, but I always know that a hundred pennies will make up that dollar or four quarters.

[00:58:51] You could give me four quarters. It's fungible it. I know that I can, trade you this for that. Whereas the non fungible world is really, it stands on its own. So that means if I have a ticket to a what's a concert, what's a group you like in music, 

[00:59:12] CK Lin: [00:59:12] whatever, let's say yes. Do 

[00:59:15] Keith Montgomery: [00:59:15] you wonder under concert?

[00:59:18] That's great. And, Coachella he's at Coachella this year, right? And so I got this ticket and and so that ticket is worth so much to you so much. You bought it for a couple of hundred dollars, $400 or whatever it is nowadays, right? What it's worth. It's not, it's like the old credit card company.

[00:59:38] I forgot who it was just priceless. It's if, those, if there were only so many of those tickets sold and you knew they were all sold out and someone come to came to you and said, Hey, man, I'll give you 10 grand for that. Cause it's a subjective, right? This is the non fungible world it's subjective.

[00:59:55] And you're like, no, I wouldn't take a million dollars for this. Because it's so valuable to me, I'm going to go to this thing. So now you have a non fungible world. I can't break up that, that Coachella ticket. I can't say, okay you know what, if you give me million for half of it, we're good.

[01:00:12] And instead of the pennies in the quarters you have the dollar, it's not going to be able to be broken up. So it really travels as this tradable asset, this thing that trades and it trades in a way where whatever the market says, it's worth it. You follow me so far. For sure. Yeah. So, when tradability is there, it's is this tradable and how is it tradable if it's tradable as a fungible thing?

[01:00:38] That's easy like Bitcoin Ethereum. So Bitcoin is a great example. There they're broken up into Satoshis think it was the pennies of Bitcoin. You get, there's always a certain number of Satoshis per Bitcoin. And so I can trade you numbers of Satoshi's for numbers of something else, but mostly it's just, it's fungible.

[01:00:58] It can flow people back to linguistics, right? Currency, current. Flow you have there's this, aspect. That's there. That's why when people say NFTs are non fungible token currency, I go wait, It's not about currency. It's about that ticket. It's about that collectible. It's about that.

[01:01:22] Maybe a deed to your house. It's this thing that you can't break it up. But you still can trade it. So back to the, idea of interoperable and in liquid, now I can actually put it out there and I can trade it for something else. So I don't necessarily need to say I'll trade you us dollars for my Coachella ticket for Stevie wonder, I'll trade you a Bitcoin or I'll trade you.

[01:01:51] Other ticket that I didn't realize was even more valuable to me, but it was less valuable to you. So barter system. Okay. So there's a trade ability factor there. So the ilities are so important because when you put them all together, either now you have left the world that I was talking about earlier, which is the, system that we currently reside in is money.

[01:02:12] Doesn't do anything. This, the dollar bill that I'm looking at right now, it's dumb. It doesn't know what it's supposed to do. It just sits there. And I give it to somebody and they give me candy or they give me something, they give me some food. And in this case, now I have a system with all these ilities.

[01:02:32] I have a system also. Where I can program that money to say, when this particular person receive or this type of person, and this business receives you, then you release these many things or you give them this, and you also are allowed to train that person when they have it are allowed to transfer it and make money on this.

[01:02:55] And Oh, by the way, that person will always have a royalty to you. If you're the original creator, let's say you were creator of art so I can program my dollar. 

[01:03:07] CK Lin: [01:03:07] Yeah. So, real quick, let me do a quick recap. Cause we covered a lot of ground just now, right? It's super nerdy. I know that guys who was watching this super nerdy but, what Keith is pointing to, and this is the reason why I wanted to focus on this very specific features of the blockchain technologies, this the founder of wax, a willing to quickly ask the question of how do you evaluate the possibility of what blockchain does and he's he, gave a very cryptic answer.

[01:03:39] He said, Oh, you just look at what blockchain allows you to do better than traditional. Occurrence. 

[01:03:51] Keith Montgomery: [01:03:51] That's a very smart answer, actually. 

[01:03:54] CK Lin: [01:03:54] So, then what, that actually reminds me of what you just said, these type of ilities, cause those are the unique features of the blockchain technology, what that allows.

[01:04:04] So if you think about it from these are the features, what are the combination of these things that allows the everyday Joe Schmoe to do something better with their life. That's when new application, new possibility new discovery, new innovations happens. That's why I'm spending so much time.

[01:04:24] We to ask this questions of, Oh, what is unique about this particular technology? Is that a good recap of where you just said? 

[01:04:33] Keith Montgomery: [01:04:33] Yeah. I think William said at one sentence, what, I just spent 20 minutes saying one of the things back bringing it back to why math and thinking if everything in math is well, cryptography is math uses math.

[01:04:51] And I remember when I was studying linguistics, this is going to be helpful. I know I, guess it is nerdy. I just, I live in my world sometimes, but yeah. 

[01:05:04] CK Lin: [01:05:04] Speaking to a fellow nerd here 

[01:05:07] Keith Montgomery: [01:05:07] In linguistics, there was a fellow is wrote a lot in the space and he also started writing a lot in other spaces, which was interesting, but his name is Noam Chomsky.

[01:05:14] I think he's still alive. One of the things that blew my mind was let's say you're in a language and it only has 10,000 words or a hundred thousand words. So English, I forgot how many it has. It has a lot of words, but some languages have a lot less, but he pointed out combination theory.

[01:05:33] Like the more variables you have and the more those things can be mixed up, the more chance you have an infinite, like literally he, he pointed to infinity. So in English language, there's infinite ways I can make a sentence. Therefore he said the probability of someone uttering the same sentences. I just uttered are very, low because we're, swimming in infinity.

[01:05:59] So the more ilities that you have, the more you can mix them up in combinations. So to your point, some things like cloud and eBay. Yeah. They're tradable and the New York stock exchange. That's liquidity. You have these ilities in different places, but do you have the programmability. Do you have this do so when you put all those together and you can start to put them in their own little recipe, right?

[01:06:25] So you have the combinations and you realize that combination has a use, like William said it's a, it has a use that you go, wait, cloud, can't do that. And this can't do that. So therefore this is different. Then you ask the question, does anybody care? 

[01:06:44] CK Lin: [01:06:44] That's right? Is it, functional? Is it, does it offer utility 

[01:06:49] Keith Montgomery: [01:06:49] value?

[01:06:51] And most of the time, no, it's you have a bunch of people who can market it well, and influencers jump in and do lots of great things. And everybody goes Whoa, And then it's the off to the next thing. It's like that shiny thing. And then you're done and you're moving on onto this other thing.

[01:07:05] So most of the time, no one really cares. It's not really valuable at all. And and then, the other thing is, in order to make it work, they have to centralize things more and more. So you lose that. And so there's that, idea of don't look over here, the man behind the curtain, but look over here.

[01:07:22] What I told you is the valuable thing that we're doing say the key is, that if you could make that recipe work right. And the combinations that are necessary and someone actually cares, like it's really valuable. Then you're in an enabling all the things that we talked about such as when we talk about problems of the unbanked or all the real problems that human beings truly face that they don't have to be super technical, but you realize you help them solve problems.

[01:07:49] CK Lin: [01:07:49] Actually this reminds me of, if we have, let's say we have six different ilities, as you said, let's just say, if that's the case, we can essentially do a permutation of all these different combinations. And then look at all of the projects that's out there and put an under the different really use that as a way to brainstorm like, Hey, we can put this in this bucket, then which ones actually have the most traction, the most user base.

[01:08:16] And it use that as a rubric as a way to say, Hey, that may be an emerging thing that we should pay attention to. Let's put some energy resources people or whatever, research behind it, such that to help it grow along the way. Are there people looking at this in, that systematic way, or are there better ways that systems thinker can actually ride the wave or help the wave or pedal before other people do 

[01:08:47] Keith Montgomery: [01:08:47] well?

[01:08:47] That's obviously a critical thinking exercise. I'm not, I don't know if people are doing it for their analysis. It would make fun and make it fun as an analysis because as critical thinking we don't have to do critical thinking when we only have two options. But the more variables you use, the more chances that problem has no real solution.

[01:09:08] It has variance of, weighted solutions, right? So when you're talking about these variables and you can start to look at the different things you're talking about, you could have a critical thinking analysis process that I think would be very interesting to see that you start to see wow, 80 20. It looks like programmability and interoperability are really key or whatever.

[01:09:29] And so the projects that are associated with that are these, and look what we took off and look what didn't take up to take off and then do some more critical thinking analysis about what parts of that allowed things to take off and not take off. So you start to see patterns across the board, and it can be very fun to see that kind of critical thinking analysis done.

[01:09:47] But no, I don't do that. I don't do that. I look at what I think again, I try not get lost in as you call the nerdy stuff. And I try to get back to the feet on the ground farmer or person packing the car and it's gonna be freezing cold. Why do I care in real life? And most of the time, I don't, most of the time, as I said, hype junk not, really valuable.

[01:10:16] The beginning of something, the hope like a star Wars thing, like the new hope or whatever it is like, it's like very, early on and lots of people playing with new toys. 

[01:10:29] CK Lin: [01:10:29] Let me ask you a question about as assistance thinkers and as a, as an architect and really looking at cause you're looking far ahead, you're looking like secondary effect, tertiary effect. And how does that actually not just satisfy it? The curiosity the, toy playing up the leads by rather actually how does it actually benefit a farmer in Sub-Saharan Africa, things like that. How do you go about doing that?

[01:10:58] Do you sit and think about the secondary tertiary effect that way? Are there, are you in regular communications with people in terms of network of conversations that they may have maybe, there's a particular community with pent up passion and then you're like, Oh yeah, here's maybe a widget right.

[01:11:19] Made by blockchain that can potentially help unleash that passion. Like how do you go about thinking about these types of things as a, systems thinker? 

[01:11:28] Keith Montgomery: [01:11:28] Yeah. There are definitely methods that I use. There's some critical thinking just a moment ago. I think a lot of times it's just going around in the world and seeing problems. I've been that way since I've been a child. And so if I see a problem, it's not necessarily just a problem, it could be an opportunity.

[01:11:53] And so the more people that I talk with, especially people in business or in a place where people are trying to get something done. So I've been lucky enough to be able to consult with lots of businesses or work in lots of businesses and, experience different ways of getting things done as well as all the problems that they're trying to solve to be able to sell something.

[01:12:18] Or usually when you're selling something, you're solving something, hopefully if not, you will be around for all of whatever months and it's going to be over. But yeah, no, I don't think I come at it. Yeah. From a, some kind of scientific thing. I would say that life itself is just this a lot of things where I'm learning constantly keeping my mind open constantly back to linguistics.

[01:12:50] I'm, well aware of the lacking nature of any form of human language to, really, to grasp what's going on. Like the, real, stuff that's happening in the real ability to communicate. They're all through a whole communication theories out there that say human beings never have communicated.

[01:13:09] Which is really interesting, but they're there they should be they should be, understood. And the fact that it's very, hard. To build, to actually understand what each other may be saying. And especially when there's a problem being expressed. So I think more of, because of the way I've overcome problems that I've talked about.

[01:13:40] That it's a a factor of when I find a way where I see the, that there, isn't a way that communicating to the others they're coming after me or whatever that's the case. So I don't think I have an answer for you when it comes to, I have a tried and true process. I'm just living life as how I'm meandering through life, but I am living life and I'm definitely picking up all the pieces I possibly can to sensemake.

[01:14:15] And then when I sense make I share it. Yeah, 

[01:14:19] CK Lin: [01:14:19] certainly that was more of a Socratic inquiry, more than anything else about what does it actually take to come at it? Because in your, buyer, you had said Keith creates a bridge between organizational human cultures. One of the things that's really clear to me, this reminds me of a quote.

[01:14:41] I can't remember who said this about Arthur was really brilliant. He says, commerce is the ultimate language for peace. 

[01:14:49] Keith Montgomery: [01:14:49] Huh? I Joe, no is commerce the ultimate language piece. It might be 

[01:14:57] CK Lin: [01:14:57] that's one man's perspective, right? A one person's perspective. And, to me that makes sense in that if it, aligns the incentives, right?

[01:15:09] So if, you can actually create prosperity and then that's, what's gonna maintain peace, ultimately in my mind. It's in the most simplistic sense. And then your passion for FinTech for blockchain creates that bridge, that mechanism between different cultures geographic or otherwise, as a way to create this collaborative environment.

[01:15:35] So 

[01:15:36] Keith Montgomery: [01:15:36] yeah, I think at commerce you have to qualify things, right? Cause when lose commerce, no that creates war in a business with someone that they think that you, lost, they won and that's how they play then. Guess what. You're the puller in business and they're suing each other, or so I would be careful with certain types of saints statements I think it was Milan Kununurra what he wrote the unbearable lightness of being right. And his purpose was to make sure they help you understand that when you're cause it's about cults. I think the way I read it but it was the aspect of human beings or human systems are not analogies and metaphors, even though metaphors and analogies are extremely important to use, to be able to get the point across.

[01:16:24] Because again, we're lacking in communications, unfortunately, languages that idea of, making sure that we don't make it too simple is very, important. And I think it's it. And he was pointing out that there was a reason that bad governments came in and it was, I think it was communism he was pointing to at the time or was basically took people's freedom.

[01:16:44] And they did it by causing people to have these, analogies and saying, man is like a chair. And it was like, no, man is a man. But as soon as I got you into that world of metaphoric Metta it got you into this, space the dream space, I can do a lot with you. This is back to, I think the digital transformation is so important to have the right architects and the right guy or whatever in it, because you can absolutely go way, off-kilter.

[01:17:17] If you're, not just not careful, if you're not. Vigilant every step of the way, right? If you're not like I've gotta be on this, I gotta be on this. And, so who is like that in life most of the time it's cruise control. So yeah. Commerce is peace or is the best way to piece. I think it's a, nice beginning, but I also believe that back to all these ilities, let's start giving it flavor.

[01:17:45] Let's start expounding on what type of commerce. So if we create systems that if you mess with those systems, you destroy the, fabric of civilization, that might be something right. If you create something between say countries that are at loggerheads right now, China and us, whether yeah, they are going to be real loggerheads or they're not.

[01:18:14] But you create a system for the two where their interests are aligned and commerce wise so much that everyone does this or that does that. They really, fall that's right now that those ilities, that can be programmed in that system. Now that's interesting, right? That now that has that's useful.

[01:18:35] It's useful because then you and I will know, Hey, we're not going to be bombed and we're not going to be bombing and all this crazy stuff that human beings like to do with each other to figure out, I guess I often don't understand completely, but whatever, why people go to war, if you really dig into it, you're like, are you thinking, yeah. It's 

[01:18:53] CK Lin: [01:18:53] more about ego then than, actual the collective value creation ultimately. And when I said what I said why, even brought it up? That's what I have in mind, this intertwined synergistic coexistence, because ultimately we all live on this planet as you were pointing to earlier, if we actually destroy the ecosystem, just so that we can have the maximum monetization or whatever, it's really dumb because you live in the same lifeboat.

[01:19:23] Keith Montgomery: [01:19:23] Yeah. Let me give you an example. It's very dark. But it's, a very true thing is like what's some of the best con I'm not the best, the most successful commerce out there is not good, right? It is. So with human trafficking especially with children this is a, this is people see it as an asset.

[01:19:48] So, that's commerce, right? But that does not lead to a good place. If you're enslaving the human being to do whatever you want them to do. And it's a big, business. That's why I want to qualify those things. Just like Milan Kununurra talked about the importance of qualification.

[01:20:06] And there is something to be said about systems within systems, but back to the mathematical mind, you're solving for the simple equation that someone arrived at Plaza Pascal or, somebody arrived at this equation. But along the way, man, you really do have to have the level of how did we get here?

[01:20:26] And it's I use this Axiom, this corollary and this mindset, and I break it down and I say we can switch this thing out with this. And all of a sudden I've proved all I got from point a to point, whatever Z. And so I would say that point a is commerce is leads to peace. Maybe your point Z is whichever it is, but it's very important to understand that you need to qualify.

[01:20:51] CK Lin: [01:20:51] Yeah. So if you don't mind, let's actually segue a bit because then that you're hugely passionate about men's work consciousness work. In addition to technologies, what are some of the ways, because one of the things that we do talk a lot on this podcast a lot is we make what we are, ultimately, whatever we make externally technology business, when is ations effort projects otherwise stands from.

[01:21:16] The way we think whatever we make would be a amplification of, our consciousness. So for you curious to know I know you're deep in consciousness work and, what are some of the ways to really fine tune your own consciousness, as well as the consciousness of an organization such that you could be, as you said earlier, vigilant always to make things from a conscious space, rather than just in cruise control, as you alluded 

[01:21:48] Keith Montgomery: [01:21:48] to earlier. So that's a long subject, but it's it's one year, as is very important because most of life is human beings are in this irrational state because we're in a body and we're animals.

[01:22:03] And we have the things that, you know come up with animals from fighting, fighting sex, all the different things that human beings go through. And, the interesting thing is if we were to be just in our heads, we probably would be always moving five steps forward. But then all of a sudden we break up with someone and there's 10 steps back.

[01:22:22] So the emotional world is so important to completely can just atomically bomb. The, mental or the the, nerdy world as you were calling it before. 

[01:22:39] CK Lin: [01:22:39] And then, the most loving way, cause I'm a nerd myself. So that's cool 

[01:22:42] Keith Montgomery: [01:22:42] though. That's all good. Hey labels are, cool.

[01:22:46] And I actually honored to be called that. I, don't see myself as that. I often see myself as very, dumb because I just don't understand everything. And so everything doesn't fit together and, I'm like, I just feel stupid all the time. But I don't beat myself up for it. I just go, okay, then let's let's try to figure this out and do some sense banking.

[01:23:08] And so part of that, the men's work and part of that whole how do we, how do you look at even Buddhism? And, cause we were talking about what is in your brain manifests as your destiny, right? There's an eightfold path in Buddhism that is very important that you could start again. It's just like a mathematical proof.

[01:23:25] If you start here and it's a thought and it becomes a word, then it becomes a deed. Then it gives a destiny. Those are all great, but the power of, life is experiencing it in my opinion. And, it's I go back in high school we tried it. They tried to have us read Shakespeare.

[01:23:49] I hated it. I w I was like, what is this right? The slings and arrows of life and the blah, blah, blah. And because I hadn't lived life, I don't ha I didn't have those experiences. This is very deep put into Shakespeare. And so you have all these adults coming at you going to the kids, you've got to understand Shakespeare and blah, blah, blah.

[01:24:11] And you're like, what the heck are you talking about? And then you live life. You go through breakups, you go through things and get fired from a job, whatever happens. All the things that happen to people lose parents lose someone special, or gain someone special, all those things. And you start to experience them directly and you go, Oh God, Shakespeare's really cool.

[01:24:33] There's something here. And I think that one of the problems people have, or I have had, I've had as well as trying to understand something that I don't, and I've not experienced. And, then, getting advice on it that's even better. Like you have coaches let me, coach you it's what have you been to that mountain before?

[01:24:54] No, but I can coach you to get to the top of the mountain. What's at the top of the mountain. I don't know. But it's like, what kind of coach are you? It's okay, you're a coach to make me work out so I can get to each plateau, the mountain. That's cool. But if you're a coach, if you're saying you're a coach here, we've just drank our Kool-Aid and I get it.

[01:25:15] You had to hit your website up, but let's, not, play this game with each other. So, men's work. There are different movements that have happened through life. There was a women's movement very, important. And so there was a reaction how the world would behave. And men started to start to look at themselves in the behavior they had and some of the very, very negative behaviors they had and examined them.

[01:25:46] And, they became almost the other pendulum. A lot of, people that had a reaction to the women's movement had a reaction over here and they quashed or squashed or whatever the, other parts of being a man. So what happened is they went all the way in this pendulum, which made them like they call them the new age man or whatever.

[01:26:06] There's all kinds of labels, but the point is, they weren't being authentic. They weren't being who they were. And so the men's movement grew and the men's movement was, it said, what is a man? Is this macho thing that some cultures say that I'm in pain? Oh, I'm not, I'll never know.

[01:26:25] And I'll never go to the doctor and I'm too strong and I'm forever this, and I'm, virile. And I'm going to show you pictures on Facebook because I'm really feeling problematic. So I'm in the gym and I'm here. And I'm is that what a man is? Or is that a is that, somebody who basically is just trying to live the caricature of what a man might be at the same time.

[01:26:51] What was valuable, what was really valuable about being a man? So those things they're not taught to us. We usually go through life fathers try to pass on the sons the best they have of knowledge and wisdom, but it gets lost because the father wasn't perfect and the father had their issues and they passed on their issues.

[01:27:16] And, so the tribe of men do have a need to have their their ability to be with each other so that they can actually say, what does this mean? And what are your feelings about it? And, realize that vulnerability and feelings could be more powerful than I am. The guy who's super aggressive and I don't smile and I don't do all those things.

[01:27:40] So how do you get to that place? You own your emotions. You sit in a group of men who call you out when they see you not being authentic, they're not mean about it, but they're like, look, you've given me permission to call you out. And I'm hearing you tell me this great story about how wonderful you are or how wonderful life is just wonderful.

[01:28:00] You've used the word wonderful, like 15 times in the last three sentences. What's up with you. What's just wonderful. And what was that one fellow that wrote that one book? If you see the Buddha on the side of the road, kill him. No, it's a great book, basically. It's the man who sits there and he's got that smile on his face, but it's so inauthentic.

[01:28:22] He's got that Buddhist smile and everything's okay. Everything's just, okay. And so the movement was there to say, look, check in with yourself that smiles, maybe you're in raged, your freaked out your whatever, but you're, acting like I'm going to go cut my flowers and I'm going to go do this.

[01:28:40] And I'm just, everything's great. And I'm just at peace. I'm going to go sit down and my field of pretty flowers and I'm just going to contemplate the universe. And so it's the that's BS. Life is messy being a humanist messy. That's what Shakespeare was about being all. This is really messy. So how do you deal with that mess?

[01:29:02] If you have a tribe or if you have a place that you could share your mess with, if you will, or people can actually help you call out that mess, then you start to become realizing that you're telling a story. We talk about telling stories, like, why are you caught up in the story when you should be caught up in your feelings, check in with your feelings, what are you feeling?

[01:29:20] And we talk about mad, sad, glad, fear, or shame. It's I feel these other feelings. You know what? Let's put you in a box a little bit. What are you feeling? What's a real feeling. And then you realize fear, total fear or anger or people who haven't grieved properly sadness. But that was the same person.

[01:29:37] 15 minutes ago is going wonderful. Wonderful. How wonderful. And then you dig in and you realize this person is in a very bad place in life for themselves personally, and have a ton of money. They may have whatever, but they're so sad or they're so angry and they don't have the mechanisms to deal with it regularly.

[01:30:02] It's not Hey I, finally saw my sadness. I'm healed, I'm enlightened. And it's done. No, Tomorrow you show up and life happens to you again. And if you don't have that mechanism to check-in, it can just build up and build up and then life is just wonderful. There's not. And so, you follow this other consciousness movement for me again, is back to feet on the ground.

[01:30:30] And I know you'll do you like to do the recaps? I think that's really cool. So let's, get this, idea here is there's soul work and there's spirit work. Spirit work. Yeah.  Spirit work is sexy. It's the thing that gets put on the big billboards.

[01:30:49] It's believe this thing and you will go to this place and the sky or wherever, it's it's really good spirit work is that's really cool. And I feel wonderful and we're all together. And we're singing mankind and womankind is together in a circle dancing around that spirit work.

[01:31:04] We're doing all the spirit work is like feeling thing. And going to that soul work is in the mud, the dirt to the guts, the. Paying the, real ugly, parts of that stuff that we deny repress our hide, what Carl union talked about as being the shadow, work and, so soul work, it's just as it's the opposite of spirit work.

[01:31:29] It's like unsexy. It w it's like a man, if he's in a circle of men and he's screaming his mouth off and he's cussing, and he's just as that's soul work, that's getting to your soul and really getting it out and understanding what's going on with you. Where are you? And are you going to die before you actually face the fact that your soul is in torment?

[01:31:51] Why is your toll soul and torment? Because you're sitting there smiling. Are you sitting there telling people a story or showing people a story on your Facebook or whatever that you know is not true is not authentic and not aligned. So both work is very important. Of course the human work is very important, but I find that the soul work just like in the crypto space and all the stuff, that's where your feet are on the ground, that's where the BS walks.

[01:32:16] And if you get yourself in a community that allows, you've given permission to, say BS, then you have a, real fighting chance of having a life. That actually is well worth. It. Lived.

[01:32:31] CK Lin: [01:32:31] A real fighting chance. That's well lived. Can you qualify what's wall lift? 

[01:32:36] Keith Montgomery: [01:32:36] I think that what Socrates said is what is the point of life and a life well lived or something like that. Qualifying it is know thyself. What that says is it's a forget, which is at the foot of the Acropolis, is it wherever it is in Greece?

[01:32:54] And what it's really saying is don't know myself Hey, I'm a doctor. I'm these things, no, that shadow know who you are. And therefore you're going to you're actually are going to inhabit that body. So white a life well lived is where you're not sitting there trying to go on some trip, right?

[01:33:12] That's the spirit work where you go on a trip off into the ether and Hey, you travel through the cosmos and all these things that people in spirit work do. It's okay. Wow. Wow. That's amazing. I'm not even from this planet. It's wow, that's amazing here. It's tell me which planet you're from. It's it's spirit work.

[01:33:29] I'm just, I'm able to go across the cosmos that's cool soul work is like, all right I got to go to work and I hate my boss and or whatever. And so it's I'm I got to walk there. My car broke down and, so I have the dirt that's there. So life, a life that is well lived is you have a reality check going, okay, I'm here.

[01:33:54] I'm now. This is my life. As you said, it manifests exactly how my brain and what my thinking process is. And if I'm clean and clear about that, if I want a different life, then I know what to do. I'll change my thinking process. I'll change where I walk, I'll change these things as opposed to spirit work, you can't do that.

[01:34:12] And spirit work by the way, is rife with the cults soul work. It's good luck. Cryonic trying to sneak in there because you're constantly re examining yourself and each other all the time to just make sure that whatever is on expressed, it has its opportunity to be there so that you can be present of what, you really are and who you really are.

[01:34:36] Yeah. 

[01:34:37] CK Lin: [01:34:37] So a quick recap, what you said just now to me, I can't remember who said this life on examines, not a life worth living 

[01:34:47] Keith Montgomery: [01:34:47] yeah. 

[01:34:47] CK Lin: [01:34:47] So to me Very much about introspection personally, his wife Nobel warrior has started just really with the desire of what does it actually take to live and to create a future of fulfillment and impact on salts.

[01:35:04] And to me, that's more, it matters to me. So I talked to various people to really examine, as you said, it the light and shadow work right there. And w to me, and it reminds me of the Buddhism principle of the source of suffering is not accepting reality is it is rather as grasping for the positive motions or averting the negative ones that you don't want.

[01:35:31] So there's a great parallel to what you just said, and actually, how do we actually live our life, embracing all of it, feel it, all of it. So, I really loved how intentional you are really about as you call it, the soul work, the shadow work really embrace all of it, versus just pretending that it's not, they're denying that they're ignoring altogether.

[01:35:56]What you also said is you put yourself in a community where the men that you're with the community, that you're with are willing to take that risk, to shine a mirror on you and say, Hey, here's what's really going on from a compassionate space now from the judgmental space

[01:36:14] here's what you said that you want. Here's what you say you're committed to. But are you seeing these things that you're now aware of? Yeah. Is that a rough recap 

[01:36:23] Keith Montgomery: [01:36:23] being in service to other men? That's right. That's right. 

[01:36:26] CK Lin: [01:36:26] That is great. Why do you think this is important for Visioneers, for visionaries, for people that are building the future of society, technology, organizations, and communities and so forth.

[01:36:41] Why do you think this work is important? I have my opinions, but I'm curious to know your thoughts. 

[01:36:49] Keith Montgomery: [01:36:49] A visionary as a leader and Lee this is an ancient I don't know where it came from, maybe China, but it's three monkeys. Like one has his hands over his ears. One's over his eyes and one's over his mouth and it's the speak and hear and see no evil or, something to that effect. I always think about that. It's like a monkey. See monkey do. Human beings. If a person, if you see people who have children and they tell their children not to do this, but they're doing it, the children would grow up to be just like them. No matter what humans want to believe.

[01:37:34] When they look at leaders, they look at parental figures. It's just how they operate. Now. Sovereignty allows them to operate outside that more and more, right? When they start to have that freedom that you don't necessarily need a father figure, but leaders are that they have your attention. They are blazing a trail and should they live a life that they say that their life is very different than what they're selling?

[01:38:02] No matter what they're selling, the people will follow that life. Okay. So you can have this is where the cult of personality comes from, right? So all these different things. So I would say that I think the most important thing for leaders when you're saying you're checking yourself is to understand that no matter what you say and whatever is out there monkey see monkey do what can they, then it begs the question.

[01:38:33] What kind of world do you want? Do you want a world that is stealing each other's ideas, backstabbing going from one relationship to another and and then going out there and being cool, right? Is that the world you want, cause that's, who's going to follow you. All your influencers will be created that way.

[01:38:56] Every people will follow your lead. And, so if you're a real trailblazer and you say, what kind of world do I want live? This is where the men's work came in. It's like model be the model, be the monkey that says, I'm going to walk this talk. I'm going to be in places. And that allow me to reflect even when I can't see myself.

[01:39:25] And I'm also going to be in a, place where my business model is going to be one that people can see, me, what I'm doing so that when they copy, I don't create in a world of absolute chaos and zero sum. So that's hard to come by. As first you have to do your work. You personally have to do your work.

[01:39:48] If you want to play as a trail. And most people I'm not done doing my work I think I'll never be done, but the point is, that. If you have the Olympic torch and you never let it go down, you never want to go out. So on a, base a day by day or minute by minute basis that you're thinking this way, then other people will, you're modeling that behavior.

[01:40:14] And other, people will see, Hey, you seem to have an okay life. You seem to be happy. You seem to be actually truly okay. Like I'm looking for that. So I want to be like that. And then there's that. But unfortunately what leaders have often is the the promotion and you look behind the scenes and you realize, Oh my God, this person is not somebody I would, like, I think I told you that it's like, if you go into a some place, if someone says do you trust them?

[01:40:44] It's I wouldn't trust them with a room of whatever 15 year olds or something. And you know exactly the type of person you're dealing with. It's Oh, and so human beings have this this is who I'm showing you. And they don't realize who they're showing really is showing their shadows and people will follow it.

[01:41:06] It's it seeps out. 

[01:41:08] CK Lin: [01:41:08] So you were saying, wait, what I'm hearing is no matter what to our best effort to hide, people's you right through you is what you're saying. For the people with discerning eyes, they could see right through one of our masks that people take on. 

[01:41:25] Keith Montgomery: [01:41:25] Yes. Yeah. It might be blinded for a while.

[01:41:27] We talked about, so crypto is a great example or different places. People could be blinded because it's like, Oh my God, this is so amazing. The promise is so amazing. And you see the people representing the promise and you go, wait, what? So they're promising freedom, but then over here it's not, or they're promising this and they're, they live their life this way.

[01:41:48] And it's so the it's just like our politicians, we see it, but it's we do this, like in Germany and they do this, it's just even though I see it, I'm blind to it. I have, I keep my eyes open. I'm just this I just keep I go right through it. We know that politicians do the things constantly that we see that they're doing.

[01:42:16] And we go, Oh my God, I'm so upset that they cheated on their wife or blah, blah, blah. Or that it's there's this poems about this like ancient poems. This is what happens when people get into different positions. Now people that do their work are different, but they're few and far between.

[01:42:34] And they're really important to be the trailblazers and the divisionary is that you're talking about being, 

[01:42:38] CK Lin: [01:42:38] so here's a follow-up question for you. And this is, I want to make it a lot of personal for you. I am a systems thinker, and I am very discerning. I like to think about things from multiple angles.

[01:42:50] Cool. And, one of the criticisms that I receive from my more entrepreneurial friends who was all about, just don't think too much as do it, and the criticism to me is, Hey, K is more important to take action. When the window of opportunity is there when the actual impact is there versus really trying to take a very discerning space, because then it's easier to miss the opportunity altogether.

[01:43:20] It's easy to get into analysis paralysis, right? So the people that are Meyer a lot is here's a cliff. I'm gonna just land a man on the moon, without really knowing how am I going to get there. They're very bold. They're very courageous. They're willing to just declare what they wanted to do and just do whatever it takes to get there.

[01:43:41] So I'm curious to know, as a fellow systems, thinker, as someone who is also very discerning about doing the right thing, and then in doing the moral thing, per se, how do you go about just, you just be more bold, be more courageous, be more just Hey. Let's throw the hat over the wall. I'm mixing metaphors a lot of a place, but you get what I'm saying?

[01:44:08] How do we just do that? Is there any sort of practice or disciplines or things like that you cultivate it over time to just, yep. We shall be there. 

[01:44:18] Keith Montgomery: [01:44:18] I talked about them. Yeah. If you do your work and all the things I was talking about, all that's upfront. So yeah, there's a lot up front, but once it's done, you ask yourself the question, am I willing to take this risk?

[01:44:34] There's a technique called war. What's at risk. I won't go through the technique itself, but basically it's, your life is the way it is here. And you want it over here. You want this different life and how do you get there? So actually there's something standing in between.

[01:44:49] There's a risk what's at risk. Then you ask the key question. Are you willing to take that risk? That's not a thing that takes a long time. So if you've done your work and you understand who you are and what you're about, and you see all these opportunities floating around and you go, what do I lose?

[01:45:06] What's at risk. And when you take it, go take it. Don't, it's and you, find your way through it and you might find that there's a new risk. That happens, same process. And then you don't lose yourself because it's easy to lose yourself. It's just throw caution to the wind.

[01:45:23] Yeah, no. Because. There's so many reasons. No but moving fast isn't as a matter of fact, I think there's a one mentor of mine that always said slow down to go fast. So if you do your work upfront, then you can go super fast because you have a system by its nature. When I, train people on systems, right?

[01:45:55] What does a system? If I have one thing that impacts another, I have a system now the chances are likely the other will impact another and it will impact another. So there's this level of impact, but also systems have aims. Why is that important? The clearer, your aim is what you want. The more chance you're going to create a system that will support that aim.

[01:46:23] The less clear you are, the more chance you're going to have a dysfunctional system, because your aim is wherever you're like shooting arrows and you have no target, just throwing them right up in the air and hoping something hits hopefully not a person somebody's pet right. Systems have an aim.

[01:46:45] And if you could take on that kind of principle, cause it's a real principle is then. You should make your systems that matter. Not all things need a system by the way, but things that really matter and think about them, think about what thing leads to another thing impacts another thing.

[01:47:01] And this person, if you say this and all that stuff and how you can work that system and the same thing goes for, I think in what your question about commerce and business opportunities, it becomes, what's your aim, right? And if you have this aim, that's clear, then you create a system for it and you just execute, just click a switch as much as that is, just go do it.

[01:47:23] But if your aim is unclear, you're gonna have a dysfunctional system. Yeah. Like a relationship, the same thing. If you don't have an aim for that relationship, if you don't have a system with that relationship, chances are, you will have a dysfunctional relationship. Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:47:41] CK Lin: [01:47:41] One more question, and then we'll complete if you don't mind.

[01:47:45] Keith Montgomery: [01:47:45] Yeah. 

[01:47:46] CK Lin: [01:47:46] So, one more question is, so what are some of the tools that you've come across a philosophical idea, maybe like getting things done or is that Ocasta and your own things like that? That's the latest thing that I'm geeking out about because it hours me to create a container, a system and then look flexible, very minimalistic.

[01:48:06] So what are some of the things for you to be able to contain this consciousness that you have and, as a way to empower you to build the future that you want to build. 

[01:48:16] Keith Montgomery: [01:48:16] Yeah. Yeah. There, there are definitely systems, like if agile systems and lean systems thinking something called Kanban, you can create a board like a Trello board.

[01:48:26] Don't overthink it, but it's the idea of how you could track getting things done. And then when you have a ability to take some of the learnings that you have from the things you get done, you can put them into a system like subtle, custom or a notion or different systems that are out there.

[01:48:43] But at the end of the day, it's just, how do I track and find knowledge that's in one place. I still haven't completely figured that one out, because knowledge is all over the place. You have this document or these places and all that, but at the end of the day, it's still, it's like being in your house and knowing exactly where that item is.

[01:49:04] That's how I live my life. So I try to, like someone says, Hey, where is where's this thing that you used to have 10 years ago I can go right into my garage. I can go right into the place. I grab it. Here you go. And they go, what the heck? And that's the same kind of attitude. So the agile system, Kanban system staying focused on doing one thing at a time like we're doing right now.

[01:49:26] Kanban has a rule. Like you only can do one thing at a time. So, you have a board, right? And a board is Hey, these are all the things you want to do, but you don't have a plan. Then you have a column that says, these are the things I have planned to do today. We'll make it these done. I'm gonna commit myself.

[01:49:41] I'm gonna gain trust with myself because I'm going to get my commitments done. Then you have the in progress like we're doing right now. Only one thing gets in that box. What is in progress? What that forces is so many behaviors and methods. One part of the behavior that it forces is focus. So I say, what am I focused on?

[01:50:08] And I look at all these things I could be focused on and I'm doing this well, wait a minute. This is not very important. This person's ah, wherever it's important. They're saying it's important, but yeah, not. So it focuses me to prioritize too. So priorities. Isn't like just a method. It's a method that gets forced by saying, I'm working on this one thing.

[01:50:28] Is this the Mo if I checked out right after this, task, if I basically died right after this, have I done what I needed to get done for? Did I just basically do this? Cause it was easy. It was I was avoiding this other stuff, you're right. So that's a great method for that. And and I would I would swear by every human being on earth should have that training.

[01:50:54] That's why one of the non-profits that I'm part of is the five Saturdays program. We go into schools are eight year old, nine year olds are high school kids and we teach them project management skills. Because we know it's going to last them for their entire lives, how they collaborate with each other and get things done.

[01:51:11] So getting things done is key. Getting the right things done is key. Understanding how the system works together. Like how one thing impacts another, like your time you don't get it back, right? Some money you can make that back. You can make it time. You will not get it back. So how you look at your system needs to take in consideration that whatever you spent, like we spent this last two hours, it better have been worth it.

[01:51:36] We better have gone through a journey together. We better be set turning on lights together. And some ways that other people can turn lights on together those types of things. So there's lots of methods. The other method I think, is very important as check-ins not just with yourself, that's easy to do.

[01:51:54] How am I feeling? I'm feeling okay. It's when you're with a group of people that are that matter to you and do that regularly, where you check in, like in a circle and you say, and it's, different rounds. So the first round is what am I feeling? So each person just that's it. They don't go into story.

[01:52:13] Cause I was like mad, sad, glad, shame, some feeling I'm feeling this overwhelmed kind of a judgment. You can let it happen and let it slide. But everybody checks in. So now you've got the real feelings out. Now what's up for you. Yesterday this person did this or we did this. We argued here or whatever, and it allows a person to get it out.

[01:52:33] Process it with everybody. It's not a long time you go around the circle again. The third circle is checkout and I'm checking out now with I'm still angry or no, I'm now happy or whatever. And so those methods, as simple as they sound, they can save relationships, families communities, societies, if you do this correctly, it doesn't take a lot of time and it allows people to speak their truth.

[01:53:02]CK Lin: [01:53:02] For people that wanted to follow up with you and your work, where should they go 

[01:53:08] Keith Montgomery: [01:53:08] on LinkedIn? And so you just see me Keith Montgomery and the company, cyber Ojai, it's a transformation company I was talking about.

[01:53:17] And yeah, you Google me. There's, a lot of things I'm involved with. You'll see, my name is attached to different projects that are out there. Some the blockchain space that we're talking about, some artificial intelligence I would go to mostly LinkedIn. All right, 

[01:53:33] CK Lin: [01:53:33] beautiful.

[01:53:34] So let me take a moment to acknowledge you, Keith, we went to a lot of different spaces. Thank you so much for being here. So generously and spend the two hours with me and my audience. So we started from your love for language. We started from how you look at language. We start a farm looking at mathematical mind, as well as linguistic strategies.

[01:53:57] Now we zoom out to looking at using dos rubric to look at a new technology like crypto as an example, and how we actually evaluate different opportunities and then create something that's brand new for people who are the regular Joe schmoes, right? How do we actually use that to benefit their life and recombine the different ilities to create something new, something of value.

[01:54:21] Then we talked about consciousness, right? The source of everything. How do we actually do not only the light work bowels, the shadow work, such that we can remain sovereign, be ourself and thus create a whirl. And when visitation that we truly want to invest in, then we talked about some of the tactical daily disciplines that you do as a way to hone your own sovereignty, your own mind, such that you can go out and create the kind of future that you wanted to make.

[01:54:50] So I so appreciate you just the way that you show up and I can talk to you for hours. You're a fascinating man. Thank you 

[01:54:57] Keith Montgomery: [01:54:57] so much. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. 


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