034 Crosby Haffner: How to Continuously Evolve As Entrepreneurs With Ceremonies and Rituals?

ANNOUNCER 0:00
this episode of the noble warrior podcast is brought to you by CK LIN mindset coaching for entrepreneurs. Whatever mental blocks in your life you want to overcome as an entrepreneur, fears of failure and ability to take the actions you know there is to take the fear of success, three steps forward and four steps back, or even that thought of not feeling deserving. After achieving all this success. Coaching is one of the most valuable tools you can have. It's an investment in yourself, and it can yield some of the highest returns. CK LIN has the skills that will empower you to achieve the most accelerated results you've dreamed of. To help you get started CK is offering podcast listeners a free strategy session with him $1,000 value visit talk with CK calm and schedule your FREE session today.

CK LIN 0:53
I'm really excited to share my conversation with my friend Crosby. He's a business owner entrepreneur, a business advisor, he has started multiple multiple businesses before and why I wanted to have a conversation with him. with all of you noble warriors listening here is that not only he is a business operator, but he is also deeply involved with his personal development. And what inspires me most is about how he carries himself, how he maintained his self-mastery, how he brings that into his relationships, and into his business. So I'm really excited to have you here, Crosby, thanks for being here.

CROSBY 1:40
Thank you, CK, I'm glad to be here.

CK LIN 1:43
So I'm curious, you know, you heard noble warrior a few episodes? And what have you said yes, to be on the show.

CROSBY 1:56
Really getting to know you a bit CK. I certainly for always, I guess I'm certainly in my adult life I have been. It's been important to me to pursue self-development. And it's been a, you know, I can use for all of us, it's an interesting path. But your practice of entering into these conversations, and really pursuing the way that people understand the path of their own and are pursuing truth, pursuing their own gifts. understanding their, their desires, more deeply. Those are all things that interest me and our conversations I've enjoyed, you know, we only know each other a little bit. But I'm, I'm grateful for the conversations we've had. And I look forward to this. And some more.

CK LIN 2:58
Thank you. You know, there was a moment. So how we met, we sat in an ayahuasca ceremony screw that, right. And there was a moment during ceremony. You were the helper in the ceremony we were at. And I was a little bit more self-indulgent on the healing mat. And then, but you are so kind and gentle. And then just kindly remind me that hey, other people want to be on the healing mat too you know, you did it in such a way that with a lot of compassion, versus like a smackdown, right? Hey, you know, time to go. Right. So I thought you did it in with such class, I really wanted to one, I really appreciate that. And to I really appreciate how you embody that masculine care. So were you always this way before?

CROSBY 3:53
No. Okay, good.

CK LIN 3:55
Okay, great. Tell, tell us a little bit about how you cultivate that masculine care, or your journey up embodying that?

CROSBY 4:05
Well, let me say first, I mean, those, the ceremonial spaces are there such, they are such spaces for care. And there, there's such a vulnerability, and now those, that ceremony practice really strips us down. And that's a lot of what a lot of the work of that space and a lot of where the beauty and the lessons come from. But in, in that space, it's such a beautiful opportunity to, to love one another or just to, to, to express to embody care and love for one another and even for, for people that you've just met me, we had just met. And? And, yeah, it's one of the things I really like about that space. But no, I was not there. I think my you know, I think what a lot of people, sort of a lot of men, in the beginning of my adult life, and, and, you know, growing up years kind of coming into that was I was very focused on like, trying to figure out, what do I want, and how do I perform and, and through some of the early, early challenges that I had as a, as an entrepreneur, as a, as a manager, as a, as a business leader, and then also my personal life, you know, I, I had some, some big disappointments in my, in my 20s, and in my 20s, and 30s. And really, really jolted me into first due to a place of kind of loss of faith, a loss of vision for who I was, and where I was going, and what this world that experience is about. And it's really been over the last, you know, 15 years, especially maybe the last 566 years, seven years, that they come back to a place of renewal and seeing more clearly, purpose and, and the way that my own experience and my role in my relationships, and in my organizations, at those things can be something other than transactional. I, there was a point. And if I look back, yeah, six or seven years ago, seven years ago, yes. Now, I was definitely looking to place I've been single for a number of years and had really good people around me, I had really built my life around my company, my organization, I had great relationships with the organization, you know, people that I loved. But at the same time, I would tell people that, because to me that I didn't believe in love. And I was, yeah, I really saw the best way that I can understand who I was, and what I was doing was transactional, you know, like, and maybe myself a kind of a broad definition of what transactional meant, but still very limited. And it's over the last six or seven years, I, maybe the biggest thing is I met my wife, my wife, who I just, we were just married last year. And she brought me back to life. She showed me, she restored me a way of seeing myself, seeing my community See, sense of family. That was that I really lost. And it was a long road. I mean, she stood by me for a number of years where I still like, I still couldn't see any purpose in, in, in commitments in much trust. It was about after two or three about three years into our relationships that through a long through many things, I was finally able to take the smallest step, barest step towards first commitment, endorse trust. And it was terrifying. I looked like a look like a pit look like a black hole to me. So scary. And I took it. And it was, it was actually it was a seed, was there a moment planted into the ground that that brought new life. And that brought all kinds of things.

CK LIN 9:24
Was there a singular moment?

CROSBY 9:29
There was a singular moment of deciding that I was going to take that step. And it was I mean, it was very circumstantial. I don't know that, that. That I can ascribe much importance to the moment itself, except that, except that it felt like trust and like, Okay, I'm going to step into this, and we'll see where it goes. And I had very little faith and go anywhere and scare the hell out of me. But then it, it opened up things I never expected, certainly, but also things I never could have imagined. And that led to more steps into trust. And that really has flourished into a whole life that I really I enjoy so much now and has become so rich between her and I and also our community and our family.

CK LIN 10:26
Was there something that she did that really allow you to trust not only yourself by in her as well as that their entity, that it's the relationship.

CROSBY 10:36
She had trust.  She embodied this, this faith. And this kind of vision for what could be that I. Again, I wasn't me, I had lost that I thought I had in some way I thought I had grown beyond that I was wiser than that. And but she surrounded me with that. And over the course of years, finally, I started to open up a little.

CK LIN 11:10
So I would imagine the people listening to this, and they probably want something like that as well. But what are they looking for? Like what behaviors or words or you know, that that indicates, hey, this is someone that I could really spend the rest of my life with? You remember some of those words or behaviors that she did? Or that you did? Did the reason I asked that question is I believe what you're describing is what everyone wants. But how to get there. So was the light, the pickle, right? So So instead of just jumping over it, I wanted to do pay a little bit more, you know, vivid picture for us?

CROSBY 11:57
Interesting question, because it's very hard to well, you talk about anyone, it's very hard to try to describe what a person is in terms of moments or words or behaviors. But maybe the thing I can say most is that, you know, relationships are intimate voices of all kinds are intimate. And there's this kind of oxymoronic quality to relationships, and it's the people that we love the most is the people who become closest to us, because we love them. Those are the people that we fight with the most, those are the people who see us at our worst and our most intractable at our ugliest. And so here you are, like, oh, like, I found this person, I love this person, I want to spend more time with this person, and that's the person that you're going to hurt the most and that you are going to be hurt by the most it's very, like, surprising in that way. I mean, on the one hand, I think it sounds quite obvious. And that's how relationships work. But it certainly wasn't obvious to me when I was a younger man when I was growing up. I couldn't see that so much. And, and so, I would say, I think what, what people are looking for is a partner who is willing to be in that space with them. You know, really, I mean, deep quality relationships, they take struggle, that relationships where there's no fighting are, those are, I think those are mostly kind of dead relationships. They're avoidant relationships,

CK LIN 13:48
very superficial,

CROSBY 13:49
and in some ways it's superficial, in certainly, if you're on a path of personal development and personal growth, you're gonna, you're gonna run to conflict, and it's in those conflicts is persisting in those conflicts that that, that we grow, and that we learn how to love and that we are rewarded with, with love and with flourishing, and with the thing with all the good things that we want. So funny partner who's willing to be there in that with you? That's, that's, that's the thing. I mean, I think it's that's the, that's a bigger thing than, like, are you compatible? Are your interests are like all the other things that we kind of latch on to of who they want to be with those things? Yeah, they're important. They're part of what draws us to one another. But I think the real linchpin is, are you in it, you got to stay in it.

CK LIN 14:46
Especially when it gets difficult,

CROSBY 14:48
especially when it becomes difficult and so much about the difficulties like, just get through the difficulty and recover from it and return to a place of being able to feel and know that note, remember the reasons that you're there with that person. And, and you go through those cycles. And those cycles, bring you closer together, and they build strength. And yeah,

CK LIN 15:14
thanks for sharing, I appreciate that. I think people have this illusion that when I meet that perfect someone, then life will be at the high points at all times. Really, and for anyone that's been either married or in a committed relationship before. You know, that's just not life. That's fantasy. That's Disney movies, that but the reality is, at least for me, step one is the willingness to actually do the work. Then step two is then how do we disagree in a way that's productive? right towards that vision that we all have?

CROSBY 15:54
Fighting productively is so important?

CK LIN 15:57
Yeah, I mean, if you fight in a very nonproductive way, then then it's easy for people to say, all right, screw you, I'm gonna go find my prince charming, or, you know, the princess or whatever it may be to come together. That's, I think these are two key ingredients, at least from my perspective.

CROSBY 16:18
I think that's right. And I think we also, you know, we live in a society where we have such abundance all around us. I mean, there's such affluence and such choice. I mean, we were a consumers of advertisers is endless, endless choice around us. And the same is true relationships. And so to very, I mean, in that way, our right,

CK LIN 16:41
you can easily swipe left or right,

CROSBY 16:42
exactly right, go just go on to the next one. Right. Right. And it's very easy, I think, for us to think that happiness and meaning and the other things that we want, are located in things that we don't have the next relationship, and the next job in more money in the next success in all these, all these things that we don't have. And I don't think that's right, I think that the things, the places where we can and must find happiness and meeting, or not of the things that we don't have there in the things that we do have. And so that practice of presence, and really, you know, returning to a place of gratitude for, you know, practicing gratitude, which is such a lifelong practice, but something that happens can happen every day in the details, that that's, that's where it's at. That's where those that's where our meaning and our happiness can be found.

CK LIN 17:46
Do you guys have any kind of special practice or rituals, as well? So I'll, I'll share mine with you. So one of the practice that my wife and I do is to do morning gratitude. What are you grateful? First thing in the morning, and the last thing at night? And that's one way we do it? So do you have something like that as a way to practice gratitude towards each other? Or life in general?

CROSBY 18:13
We don't have a daily ritual like that. Together, we, we do we carve out time once a week to really create alignment and to I mean, alignment in both Qatar, the practicalities of our week, and but also in, in areas where we know that there are sensitivities are

CK LIN 18:38
what does that mean?

CROSBY 18:39
Hot Topics, you know, in, in, in relationships, like triggering points, yeah, trigger points, the thing is that we know, have the potential to take us off the rails and to you know, disrupt our the flow of how things are good, you know, in our, in our daily life. So we found that to quite help. But I think, you know, most of what we try to practice is less ritualized, but just is a consistent theme that we return to is being seen, you know, how do we make sure we practice, see one another in the relationship? And, I mean, again, on the one hand, it seems on the surface, it seems very simple. being seen, like this is the person that you know, the most you spend the most amount of time with. But on the other hand, it's in those simple lessons, that those are the ones that are the deepest, those are the ones we can continue to go back and find more good stuff and those lessons.

CK LIN 19:47
But how do you do that? Like, how do you make the other person feel seen? And I don't want to, to bring it down to the tactical level, but for the people, people who are listening, they may want this aspirational, they want it, they're willing to do it, they're even committed to it. But how do you do it? Right? So that's, that's what I believe, is the challenge.

CROSBY 20:12
So much of it is about communication, like really developing and fine-tuning our communication skills. I mean, I, I in many ways, I think I'm a quite a good communicator. But Wow, I've been taught what a shouting can be. And I think there are a lot of, of tactics in that. I I have a good friend who has recommended to me recently, and it's been recommended to me a few times, but I'm, I'm reading this book, which is an old practice, I can't believe I haven't read this, but nonviolent communication, which is not what I expected it to be, but it I'm so excited about, about the insights. And the articulation. This book is giving me it's really, for things that I knew that I knew that I know, it's, you know, giving really good articulation to those things for things that I have been trying to say, but haven't quite, you know, quite really got clearly defined. It's really been providing wonderful language for that. And then whole new concepts. I really, yeah, I'm enjoying reading that.

CK LIN 21:26
Thanks for sharing that. I'll make sure the link to book in the show notes. So since we met at a plant medicine ceremony, can you share with us a little bit about your practice, or how you use the medicine space? as a way to deepen your personal mastery relationships? In your business? Potentially?

CROSBY 21:53
Yeah. Well, my wife and I, we, we started down the plant medicine road together. And it's, it's been a really rich, generous way for us to connect and to kind of vision for our future and for the ways that we approach our daily life. But for me, personally, like I'm, I'm such a problem solver. And such a designer, I really, really love the experience of design, I think of, I think of designers problem-solving. I think I mean, so much of what design is it's very difficult to design something I think, with upon a blank page, like design happens around existing features, no matter what, whether you're designing a space, or you're designing a pricing model, or, well, wherever you're designing, like, into design solutions happen around other things that look like obstacles or, you know, or fixed features. And, and also, I don't like to compromise, I don't like the idea of compromise in my relationship in my businesses, I don't like to compromise, I like to, I kind of believe that the most, one of the ways that we can engage our, our own creativity and imagination isn't ways to, to look at things that appear to be in conflict or objectives that, you know, seem to be, you know, mutually exclusive in some way and to find solutions that, that allow each to live out their, their, their best qualities. And, and so the plant medicine work has been a wonderful space for me to do that kind of visioning. And how do you do that?

CK LIN 24:01
Like, how do you use that space to help you be a better problem solver and designer?

Unknown Speaker 24:11
It's a, you know, plant medicine work as a container to ceremonial container, which I really like, kind of soak in that imaginative space to like, dig into questions of, like, yeah, okay, I want this or I see that, but what does that really mean? Like to, to kind of peel back the layers of expectation, and, and, and past vision, you know, like, all of the baggage, but all of the structures that we can have our lives, our personalities of the, the the perspective that we bring to something and to take those things apart, and try to see more clearly, what's really at the heart of this, what's the root of drive this for me, and, and once those things are taken apart, and it's much easier to see what the elegant solution is, or how to take away foot make my way forward towards that objective with only those pieces that really are meaningful to that. And I don't know, I don't know if that sounds very tactical, but that's, that's my experience of the planets in space.

CK LIN 25:29
So one of my so because I produce events like that, as well. So one of the participants who went through it, I really love how you articulate this particular mental model said: imagine all your beliefs, from intergenerational to gender to cultural to everything, education, parental, like all your beliefs that you inherited, is a brick wall, like ones lay on top of each other, then you may be aware of the most superficial layer, then plant medicine space allow you to be dissociative and allow you to dig, what is the belief that's built under this belief, or our ability to believe believe, etc, etc. and allow you to actually take an objective view and say, all right, this belief, no longer maybe serve me when I was three years old, five years old, don't talk to strangers as an example. Right. But this is, so serve me as an entrepreneur, now I need to go out and share the message and the product and services, or why I want to do this in the first place. No, it doesn't serve me anymore. So, therefore, let me let go. And I believe in put up a new belief, etc, etc. So, to me, the medicine space is a beautiful space for me to take inventory of my entire belief system. But to the best, as deeply as I could. Would you agree with that, or

Unknown Speaker 26:59
I think that's good, I think that's a good metaphor for what I hear in that is, is a recognition that, who I am, who you are, is not your sense of identity, all of those, all those things. And it's so easy in our, in our lives, to think about who we are in terms of all these different ideas of identity, and there's actually who we are, that is, before all that underneath all of that. And it's a very, very rich, kind of fundamental space. And yeah, I think, like looking at it, objectively, is what you said, in some way. It's it's kind of dissociative, but it teaches us that the true self is deeper than all those things, it's deeper than our history, it's deeper than our generational identity, it's deeper than our gender, it's deep, deeper than these other things. And, yeah, that's, that's one of the reasons why I value that space so much.

CK LIN 28:13
So how has it helped you to be a better human being a man entrepreneurs, a leader, as a husband, as a brother, bringing back to us and share share with us a little bit, if you don't mind, the transformation that occurs, like before I went into medicine that was this way after I went into it was that way.

Unknown Speaker 28:34
So when I was first approaching plant medicine, I thought of it as pursuing the medicine, like the substance therapy experience, not so much the big experience, although I thought those things would come but I thought that what I was pursuing was the material The thing that I was, you know, drinking with the, you know, substance itself. And what I found instead was that the plant medicine was a component of a larger structure around ceremony. And I come from, I come from a religious background, I, you know, I grew up in the church and out of, you know, long, deep experience in that in that community, and I, you know, as an adult, I, I left that, then over the course of years, I was really looking for experience of ritual is something that as an entrepreneur, and as somebody who is prone to biting off more than I can chew and like, just, you know, like really taking, like, just piling my plate too high. And therefore being in you know, you know, constantly like multitasking, busy, you know, just like doing things all, all the time. I was looking for more ritual. And, in originally in my pursuit of plant medicine, I didn't connect the pursuit of plant medicine, with my longing for ritual, they weren't, weren't, weren't connected, and I was so gratified to find those two things together in the same place.

CK LIN 30:23
What are those two things

Unknown Speaker 30:25
ritual, and that was the other ceremony, ceremony, ritual ceremony and the plant medicine that I saw, I now see plant medicine as not something that, you know, you go and you take and, you know, gives you this transformational experience. This is not how I would recommend it to anyone, that's not how I think it's, it can be practiced in this best way.

CK LIN 30:46
Yeah, it's not a silver bullet.

CROSBY 30:48
It's not a silver bullet, silver bullet. And I also had to use the metaphor to I kind of think of flatness and like, like gunpowder, like, gunpowder, and yo pile of gunpowder on the table, and you light it up. And it's the god i and but you pack that into cancer, and all of a sudden, it's a firework, or it's a bullet, I mean, like you like it's up, it's a powerful thing, but in it, it, it wants a structure within which function. And, and so the ceremonial space brings me to this place of pangs of such presence, and really paying attention to every movement, every sound that I'm making, the way that I have to pay attention to my mind, my physical body, and my relevant to the relationship of my physical body to the other things in the space that I'm in, and that carefulness and that presence, I found that to be so enriching in my professional world. I just actually, I just had a meeting today with the leader, a team of one of my businesses, and, and it's a business where I have, I have a handful of partners, and they are I mean, it's it's such a beautiful partnership, and these men I, I love these guys, and, and, and over the course of a long process that we didn't think was going to happen this way. Over the course of 18 months, we we opened up the partnership to a new partner. And I just announced to the leadership team in this business that we had, had made this man, a partner in the business. And it's a significant announcement, it's a big, the big thing for this business to have made that decision. But what's so important about about this meeting, and today is not that decision so much, but the way that it's conducted, and the way that even in sharing that, that news and sharing that decision to do so to do that in a way that is inviting to the leadership of this group to observe to really to share the process, the thoughtfulness, the care, and the significance of opening up this partnership in that way. And so there are so many examples of that, we were talking before your segment, the way that I asked you to get off that healing, you felt the care of that, and I'm really glad to hear that, but it's such a small thing. I mean, that was a small couple of few seconds in a long ceremony, you know, long life. And those few small seconds are how we engage with one another are so important. In my professional life, I've always been a leader who has wanted to, to coach and to bring along and to create consensus and and create a shared vision and a shared understanding because  I really believe in collaboration I believe in in the ways that we can work together there's such there's such beauty in all of our differences and all of our all the different perspectives and skills and feeling everything that people bring to anything that they're engaged in. But but so the ceremonial space that helps me the tap into the beauty and the possibility and in an interaction that can happen over just a few seconds. For an entrepreneur who's in you know, these tech businesses like it's fast-moving and with candlelight, Sunder, subscribing and such effort and like looking forward and pushing and pushing, to, to, to have an integrated experience to have that be alongside how it is we recognize each other how does we see each other? I think it's such a beautiful thing. And, and, and I think it's an important thing. As business leaders, I business is such an important part of our society. I mean, it's it's leadership in businesses, a template and it's, it's shaped so much of who we are as a people. And so, if we can, if we can bring these kinds of practices of awareness and have a commonality of our own shared, you know, human humanity humaneness to, to these, you know, sometimes very, you know, very challenging, very demanding environments that are oftentimes a natural part of the business environment. It's I think it's really important. I think that it, it opens up really big possibilities for, for who we can be in, in, in this society.

CK LIN 36:22
So for other entrepreneurs listening to this, maybe they're I'm projecting a little bit, maybe their primary objective is to win. Right? So for them this conversation about Breen, the new ones, tentativeness, the intentionality in these micro-moments may seem unnecessary. Can you speak a little bit about how, why you believe that bringing this level of attention to these micro-moments could be actually a amplifier to their business and their business objective?

Unknown Speaker 37:01
I mean, I would say first, like, let's think about what it means to win. And, and even if winning is like a very kind of one-dimensional things like, Oh, I want this to happen, right? Okay, that's okay. But the desire for a certain kind of outcome, a desire to win. If you have that desire, then other people have that desire to and

CK LIN 37:31
other people in your organization. okay, yeah, just double check,

Unknown Speaker 37:35
yeah, your organization will have that desire to and so to, to learn how to communicate in a way that he engages the people around you, your colleagues, people that report to you that people will report to them in a shared vision for whatever that winning is. That I mean, just as a starting point, without questioning the death of the the object itself, that that process it, it creates, it creates a commonality of vision, and that turns into momentum that can be contributed to by everyone in the organization that that ultimately will help you get to towards that, you know, faster. And also, I think we we can't forget that. Oftentimes, the objectives we set out for ourselves, maybe they're not the most refined, most well thought through objectives. I mean, that's one of the things I think we're all learning is how do we set the best objectives for one another, in one of the most common things that I have said to people who are aspiring entrepreneurs is, you know, entrepreneurs identity, they have an idea, they want to, you know, build a business of this type or that type and businesses, they try to meet needs, they try to solve problems, right. And the world is awash in problems. And one of the most important things is to pick the right problem, you know, like, there are a lot of problems to go out and solve that from a business standpoint, and not worth the time. And so, so there's also something about if you if you can really define what it means to win or define what that objective is, then you, you and communicate that in a way that invites other people into that project, then, in a, in a certain sense, you also invite them into, into a space of thinking about, is that, is that right at the right definition? And there aren't very many cases when fewer minds are better than one, right? So so there are plenty of places in business where singular focus and like really, like blind or determination, like there's a place for that. But there's also a place in the gaps between the sustained, blinder effort to really check-in and make sure like, what are we doing here? How are we doing? What are we doing here? Are we doing this in the best way, in whatever best means? Those things I think they better thinking about

CK LIN 40:41
thanks for sharing that. Before I started all of this entrepreneurial effort, I was the head of culture in a company. And we were one of the things that distinguish as they had a culture is that people will often come back with a promise of success, what that may be an exit in x years, and you know, whatever multiples this revenue number, all these things, they may come for that. But ultimately, people stay because of the humanists. And also often people leave because of the manager that you didn't jive well with each other just didn't like how they were micromanaging or whatever it may be. So to me injecting this attentiveness, this intentionality in the micro-moments to me is what is why we're doing all of it. That's my perspective, right? Not the truth by my woman's perspective. And when you have everyone with that shared vision and communicate in such a way that you know, we can really understand each other's context and then reached me true understanding very quickly that to me is what a celebrate you know, business success that entrepreneurs want as business scale, you can probably speak more on that, but as business scale the more humans you add to it and when ization the more unreliable we may be therefore, the more important having the right culture, the right communication style, the right touchpoints, the right rituals is becoming more important when you have a team of two/three people may not be as important quote-unquote, right. But when you have a large organization, if you do want to scale and when ization is so important to pay attention to these intangible things, like share understanding, like communication style, like the micro-moments like, like sharing an important company update with we care, right?

Unknown Speaker 42:54
Yeah, and I mean, I do think that's so true. I think it's, it's, it's funny, it's interesting, when you think about the way that organizations go out to find talent to find new people, like the way we just went, right job descriptions, it's all tends to be skill set and experience based, right. And those things are really important, you know, organizations need to find, you know, people that bring a certain skill set in a certain experience, but but those two axes overlook most of the human part of a person. And hiring is the most expensive thing that people that organizations do, and hiring the wrong person who's not a good fit. I mean, let's face it, not everyone is the right fit for a particular position, no matter no matter how perfect their skill set and experience might be. If If who they are, where they are in their life. And the thing is, they want to be in that organization, are not going to get met for one reason or another, then the time the next that an organization, you know, expense to train that person and try to integrate them into the organization. It's, it's a tremendous loss. And so, so yeah, and also opportunity cost to execute I'm huge opportunity cost. And huge Yeah, loss of time and, and time attention from everyone else who's around that person and in the organization. So, yeah, taking the time to really think about, you know, what, what are the cultural values in this organization? And how do we think of our people, not just in terms of how, you know, how they can contribute to the practicalities of running this organization? But how do they contribute to the culture to the ethos of the community of people who are your engaged in the project, that business? Definitely an important additional dimension to be paying attention to

CK LIN 45:06
do you have a framework to help you clarify and then communicate and reach me to understanding of your organization's purpose, mission, core values, and hiring criteria of all these intangible

Unknown Speaker 45:23
I wouldn't say that I have naturally don't have a structured approach. You know, one of the things that's really great about the time that we're in is there's so many good personality tests out there. And you know, there's being used more and more by organizations that that's really helpful. I think the most important thing is for the leadership of an organization to be thoughtful on on these matters, and to really to have a way to articulate themselves, what these intangibles are, and to then think about, okay, now that we've got that define for ourselves, how do we communicate that in the hiring process? How do we test for that in the hiring process? What are the some of the characteristics that we would say no to? And what are the characteristics that we would say yes to?

CK LIN 46:14
Yeah, and I mean, that that part is, if you're not clear yourself as an entrepreneur, how can you expect middle managers or your hiring managers to understand what it is you're just going to multiply the confusion down the line? That's right. Yeah. And then, and then you're going to complain later on, like, hey, why did you understand what I'm trying to articulate to you? Right? Yeah. Because you don't understand yourself? Beautiful, that's great. Man, there's a lot of different ways that I can go into our next conversation. But I'm curious to know, how do you inject the purposefulness into organizations? How do you operationalize,

CROSBY 46:57
operationalize purpose purposefulness? Yeah,

CK LIN 46:59
purpose founders or values? Because, you know, it's one thing to have things written on the wall posted in in kind of expect everyone to rise up to the occasion, right? rise to the occasion, is another to actually operationalize into one business, as you as you said, the hiring process. But what's beyond the hiring process? What else is there? Is there anything that you want to speak about that?

Unknown Speaker 47:28
You know, I'm not sure I, so much of it is just about how did how does a business conduct its interpersonal interactions? And then there's lots of ways that that can be operationalize I mean, in the hiring process is one way and how meetings are conducted? In?

CK LIN 47:49
How do you guys do it? How do you guys hold meetings? So one of the things I tell everyone, any hiring managers or people who wanted to hire me as a consultant, is show me on meetings, and I show you a culture, because in that meeting, I can basically tell what kind of culture company so I'm curious to know, from your point of view, how do you hold your meetings? Because meeting is an important ritual that all companies have, right? How do you actually hold that?

CROSBY 48:19
I think that so organizations are also this interesting balance between recognizing one another as human beings, and then that sense where peers, we're all peers, right. But organizations function based on hierarchy. hierarchy is really important. I think, I think, I think hierarchy and the quality of leadership is really important. So in meetings, on the one hand, I think it's important that the leader of a meeting, leadership is present in a meeting, create clarity around what supposed to, and in this meeting, like, what are our objectives? How does everybody here understand why we're here and what we're trying to get out of this time together? Right. And so in that sense, there's something that is something that that leadership sort of defines. And then, and then, the other thing that I think it's got to happen in meetings is listening, listening is not the easiest thing to do. It's so easy to show up with a predefined understanding of what's going to happen and how it's going to happen and to have that block, true listening. And so and so, I mean, and I think the reason to have people in the intermediate is, is to, is to create alignment to create a common understanding, and that common understanding, it's hard to, it's hard to cultivate that if you just have one person who's like handing down instructions or teaching or whatever, right? There, you is much easier to achieve that when there's dialogue. And when there is a back and forth. And when you are asking people and people are feel free and comfortable to, to articulate back, you know, here's what I'm hearing, or here's how I see this. I think we as human beings, we you know, we have a desire to be understood, we have a desire to be to contribute. And we have a desire to be recognized for that contribution. And so, so on the one hand, I think a meeting requires structure. On the other hand, within that structure there, I'm looking for space for the participants in the meeting to actually participate and to contribute and to be heard and to have the other participants in that meeting. respond in a way that acknowledges what has been presented by one of the members.

CK LIN 51:00
Do you have a particular practice to do that? As in? Here's the intention that you call on people who recreate what you just said, and things like that. I mean, engineers, I'm very framework. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 51:10
I mean, I think it's, it's very simple. It's, a lot of it is, I will ask people to, to really articulate, like, tell me what you heard night, tell me how you understand it. Right. Like, tell me what you think the problems are? The challenges are and what's just been laid out? I, I really value people who in a in a business context, I value people who, who can bring a kind of analysis that says, well, in my experience, or in terms of in terms of what I see, here's, here's how that's going to work well. And here's how that's not going to work. So well. Right? or hear that hear the challenging areas that we need to really pay attention to. I'm, I'm looking for engagement and contribution at that level. And I'll I mean, I I can just ask for directly asked for contribution at that level,

CK LIN 52:08
how do you create that safe space where because you're, you know, the founder, or the top guy, of course, you have all this psychological safety. So you please tell me, whatever you think, but in reality, maybe maybe they're in a higher hierarchical point of view, they may not feel so safe to really tell you the truth, per se, right? Because do still want, you know, there's that underlying desire still, hey, I like my job. I want to make sure that whatever I say doesn't offend Crosby, you know, how do you cultivate that safe space, so then they can, as much as possible share how they real, how they really feel, feel about this particular issue or problem?

Unknown Speaker 52:52
Yeah. Well, I think that's, that's the key word safe, right? There, there needs to be a sense of safety, and it and the larger an organization gets, the more level levels of hierarchy, there tend to be, and the more distance there is between the leadership or the leader, and the staff level person. And with that distance comes intimidation and apprehension and fear and like literally not screw up, and let me not say the wrong wrong thing. And, and that that can really lead to like, I'm not going to just kind of, like sit here, I'm not going to do anything or you know, because any move could be you know, might be might be judged, it might be analyzed, and so. So in the communication process, and this is I mean, this doesn't, this can happen in a meeting, and it needs to happen in a meeting. But it's something that accumulates as part of the cultural practice of a company, or an organization is for, for the leader or for leadership, to invite. And in some cases, that can actually turn into a kind of demand, like, actually, I am asking you to show up in this, what I'm asking you to speak and as you just share, but then upon that sharing upon that speaking, like to be gentle, right, and to find the places to reassure and to compliment and to recognize what is what's right, or what's good, or what's insightful about what has been shared, while still and then to find a way to fit it into the framework that the leader has already established, or the solution that has already been defined, because then somebody because somebody can speak and show up and say something, and it could be completely off base. But good leadership can take that and find a way to recognize that for the contribution that it is or has attempted to be right, right for the goodwill that's in it, if nothing else, right, and then fit it into the structure that is what is going to come out of that meeting or war war, the structure that is the direction of the momentum of that organization. And that right, there is a kind of coaching. It's not like direct teaching, oh, no, that's not the way to understand the function of this way. Right? It's, instead, you're taking the gift of that person's time articulation, imagination, whatever, you know, all the things that lead to here, I'm presenting this thing. And to Yeah, to incorporate that integrate that into the larger picture that that the leader has defined or or is so oftentimes is still leader is, is crafting right there and meeting it's a you know, it's a it's always a work in progress, or best organizations are always a work in progress.

CK LIN 55:57
Actually reminds me of a story by Maria mayor, former CEO of Yahoo, former Product Manager of Google. She is super smart, obviously. And she actually have thought about all the different permutations of different solutions. And chances are she's right. So when she first started, as a product manager, leading our team should always just say, bam, here's what we aregoing to do. You guys go do it. And she was the coaching that she received was: be the last speak, allow everyone to share their point of view, analyzing the problem this way that way, but just like hold her tongue the entire time, and then be the last to speak. Right. And I think over the years, I mean, what you share is is effectively that be the last and speak but also acknowledge people's contribution to what they share. So they feel that, hey, they're actually contributing to this overall vision and problem solving. Rather than just, hey, go do this thing that I tell you to do. Because what happens if you do that consistently, then people just going to be quiet and just wait until you give them an order? And then do the thing that being told what to do, then ultimately, then what's the point of hiring really smart, motivated people into the organization?

Unknown Speaker 57:17
Yeah, the then you both haven't tapped into their talents and intelligence and may perhaps more importantly, you haven't engaged them in a way that that creates investment and increase consensus, like just handing down the right answer. I mean, that's really good. Whoever the coach was, it was giving her that advice is really good advice. Because by speaking last, not only has there been time for others to air their perspective, but what she hopefully did could do, is in presenting the right answer, when when we're presenting her answer, she can say she can say like this person, as this person said at that person said, like, she can start recognizing the the the other insights that were there in the room, and how those are manifest in what she is presenting. And that, as you said, that makes people feel like they have contributed, and it and that that creates engagement. And that develops that. That kind of consensus that that I'm always looking for.

CK LIN 58:23
Beautiful. Thank you. So new topic. You're a serial entrepreneur, you've been starting businesses since How?

CROSBY 58:32
Oh, my first business, I guess, was when I was 21. Beautiful.

CK LIN 58:39
So one of the things that I came across serial entrepreneurs, especially is when you are striving for something, there's always hope. Right? And at some point after maybe their first exit, or the second exit, the question, the existential, existential question will come to mind is they're all there is? Do you know after have all these accolades been on the cover of magazines, and all this money and all these employees? That is there, you can go on and do it again. It's a repeat, but you know, so have you ever experienced that existential question to yourself as you create all these businesses?

CROSBY 59:23
Well, so first, let me let me correct you a little bit. So serial entrepreneur is is true, in a sense, okay. And my first business Yeah, I was 21 years old. But I started that business with, with to weather with a friend that I knew from college and his best friend from childhood. But in some sense. My my partner, Terry, my friend, Tara, he was the true entrepreneur on it wasn't my vision. And at that age, I didn't even have any particular ambition around. starting businesses, I wasn't in tech, I had a science degree, but I hadn't really touched the computer that much. And for the first few years, I was not that invested in being an entrepreneur, entrepreneur, that wasn't really what I was about. It was only later when the business really started to grow. And I, I learned just in practice that I had a, I had a skill and an enjoyment in, in training people and in management and in organizational development, that I started to really live into the idea of entrepreneur. And so that's the first question. The second direction is that I've been in a lot of different businesses. But I've only started a handful between that first business, which was part of the.com, boom and bust. The main web 10 years ago, when I started my second business 13 years ago, now, I was a turnaround CEO. So I wasn't starting businesses, I was parachuting into troubled tech businesses, on behalf of secure investors in order to fix problems. And it was gratifying in a lot of ways like you, you, you get put into a situation where there's a lot of problems, and you're going to solve some of them. And it's always a lot more fun to solve other people's problems and to solve your own. There, right. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

CK LIN 1:01:41
Because it gives you a little bit more just dissociated from problems rather than

Unknown Speaker 1:01:46
Yeah, I think that I think one of the challenges for, for entrepreneurs is, you know, anything that you do, when you I mean, anything you do making anything, whether it's business or anything like that, by doing it, you're invested in it. And that investment can be a beautiful thing. And it leads to a real commitment, but also you there can be a loss of perspective. And it's oftentimes a lot easier for fresh eyes on a problem to see a solution that's right there, the person who has been wrestling with it for months or quarter to years, just cannot see, too invested. But so I did the turnaround, CEO work for about five years. And those those, those were rewarding engagements. But they were short ones, you know, they were each about a year long ago in a strip organization down there to try to find its fundamental components, rebuild products and services out of that and rebuild the staff. And then I'd hire a mentor, Tina, and I move on to the next

CK LIN 1:03:01
I see.

CROSBY 1:03:04
And so after about five years of doing that, I really wanted to get back to long term organization building, because I, that's what I enjoyed. And and I also didn't want to, I can really see in that position as a turnaround CEO, just how much overhead there was in supporting a financial partner.

CK LIN 1:03:37
Right? What does that mean, actually unpack that a little bit?

Unknown Speaker 1:03:40
Yeah. So I go into these companies, a couple of them were, you know, small public companies, you know, and the public public is a whole nother kind of overhead. Right. But when you have a business is financially troubled, which is why I was there in the first place, then the, there's a lot of anxiety around that business. So you know, is it going to work? Is it worth it to continue to put money into this thing, like, you know, where's it going, there's a lot of anxiety around the financial performance that business by a financial partner, what I mean by that is some, you know, people and organization is not in the day to day operations, they're just evaluating the company, from the outside. And so organizations in that place, whether you know, any organization that's taken venture capital, or most kinds of debt, many kinds of debt, maybe not most, but many kinds of debt, certainly in this tech entrepreneur world. Third Party financing means that you're supporting a financial partner who wants reporting, the wants to understand what's going on is to know if you are on track with your plan, he wants to know how it's going, right? And there's a lot of overhead that goes into communicating what's going on, right? And providing the assurance or telling them what's going on. And, you know, trying to explain how you're tackling those problems, right. So when I started my second business, actually, that whole process was really interesting, because I I, at that point, I thought, I go, Okay, what am I looking for? What do I want here, and I actually wrote down, I wrote down a list of really unreasonable, unrealistic characteristics, you know, things like I want to, I wanted to be in the data business, because I, I could see that in the data business, you can sell the data, and then tomorrow, you can turn around and sell it again. And I wanted to be in a business that didn't require a financial partner, like, that's what he needed to cash flow pretty quickly. And it needed to not not require a you know, big slug of seed capital. There's another thing that I looked at this list, and I just thought, okay, that's great, interesting list of what you want a business, but then I can't happen. And then it did. And it was, it was very interesting. It was an impactful experience of manifestation of just like by defining what you want, by taking the time to really carefully defined and be able to articulate the characteristics of what I'm after, I can put me in a much better place to actually see that happen. Right. So I had become a bit disillusioned with running and fixing other people's organizations. So I went back to building my own organization, and that organization was in the ad tech space

CK LIN 1:06:52
Before you go to the ad tech space, you said this illusion, do you mind diving a little deeper on that, this kind of describe the disillusionment? Well, like, have you ever experienced a central prices that talked about or even just the stress level that that empty void, that one feels

Unknown Speaker 1:07:14
that's what led me to wanting to get back into long term business building, and, and in some sense that, that long term business building, building my own company, again, address that, but then I just uncovered the next layer of disillusionment and dissatisfaction. So I was glad to be back building my own organization and without a financial financial partner, because it's such a luxury beat to be able to devote all of your time and attention just to business building, right. And, you know, that business, you know, we started out, you know, a couple of people. And over the course of a few years, couple of years, we were, you know, 15 people, and that business eventually grew to be about 70, little over 70 people. Not as big as my larger business had been, but I didn't want to run an organization that large anymore, you know, it was a good size. And that business, I loved the culture of that business. I love the the community that was there and the the ethos of staff development that we had in that business. And now it's beautiful, beautiful community. But But two things happened. One was I realized that the thing that I loved in that business was that community and was the building of engaging with the staff and, and all the things that came along with it, and I didn't care at all for the business model. I mean, we were in advertising and like, I don't care about advertise. I mean, it was, it was a business model. And it was one that, you know, was fruitful, it paid the bills that enabled all kinds of things. And there's a lots of good things in that. But But when I saw that, I was like, Okay, so now I'm here to I'm just here for the organization, the organization development, and but then that business fell apart. And I ended up having to take that organization apart. And that was very disillusioning.

CK LIN 1:09:36
Painful,

CROSBY 1:09:36
it's very painful. And it really made me question, it really made me question what I was doing in business, what I was doing as an entrepreneur, because I also could see that, I mean, like, everything, everything, businesses have a life cycle you're getting, and there's a middle and there's net. And there are very smaller businesses that have continued for, you know, decades and even century. But it's a very small number, right, you know, most businesses, they have a beginning, a middle and an end. And, and starting to recognize that made me really have to have to think about well, okay. My vision, then, of what organizational development is all about, has got to shift somehow, because so much of how my orientation even in all the good things of developing those organizations was about growth and expansion. And, and actually, all those things come to an end at some point. And even if we hadn't had the end, that business hadn't had the end that had, if let's say we had gotten sold at some point, well, then you're still taken apart that organization at some level. And so I really had to think about what one of my doing here, and what do I really want out of this at these businesses and out of my own life. And so it was at that point. This is now actually it was when that business was coming apart, that I met my wife. And so that point that a lot of things were were changing for me, and I was kind of asking these existential questions about what am I doing here, and like, I know, I picked some goals for myself that are going to last more than a few years. And, and so initially, I, you know, I stepped out of business, you know, I bet that company had, I've made a few acquisitions along the way, I, I stepped into more of an advisory role rather than operational role, I actually, you know, at somebody who, as I said, before, puts too much on his plate, I really spent a lot of time just trying to kick things off with I played, and to try to create space in my life to, for I didn't know what but just to do that do something that was different. And, and so it's that it's that journey that has led me to a place now where I have two things. One is kind of, like we were talking about before really paying attention to people and paying attention to the meaningfulness are the ways that small and big interactions can be meaningful in daily life and in business, they be important to those things and really trying to, to honor that, and to highlight that as a way of cultivating awareness and, you know, organizational culture and in the companies that I'm involved in. But it also, it led me has led me towards organizations that are more explicit about values. And so at that time, with a kind of a, some misgivings some a little bit of jadedness, I stepped into a couple of nonprofits. I had some judgments about nonprofits. judgment from afar, though I had never been on the inside of a nonprofit. So I decided to explore that. And I stepped inside of a couple nonprofits, and I was involved in both of them for a few years, I'm still involved in one. And, but that that whole journey, which is still ongoing, has really led me to be much more focused on and really see a lot of value in thinking about values, values within businesses, but just values within our culture within our society at large. So much of our society is focused on problem solving, and policy and growth and not on values. And I think that, I think that that's a big missing component. We are we're not who we are, as a people, we are the side society, we're not talking to each other about our values. And in order to in order for us to make our way out of some of the really big, apparently intractable problems that we see in our world, in our political system, in our economic system. In our social structures, I really think we need to begin talking to one another about values, stop fighting about policy, stop fighting about who has the best solution, start finding common ground around very simple, fundamental values. And that is what has allowed me to make my way out of that place of disillusionment, and into a place where I really, I'm so grateful for that path, because it It, it, it, it, it gives me this experience of something that I think is very deep, is very universal, very common to all of us. All of us, as a people, I mean, all of us on the planet, as human beings, other people like to like to be able to really think about the things that we have in common as human beings. And, and, and I really believe that it's, it's that that is the way of developing new structures, new way of seeing things and communicating with one another and working with one another. So that we're not just fighting about our differences are actually we're actually coming together in our, in our commonalities. And, you know, at this point in human history, with all of our science and our technology, and all of the power that we have, there isn't very much that we couldn't do. If we actually put our, our minds and our effort to it as a people like as a global people, right? It's not very much we couldn't do we just can't agree on what to do. Correct. And so I really, yeah, so I'm now like, fully engaged. I'm really excited about the next chapters in my life of, of working on those things. Yeah.

CK LIN 1:16:49
So do you plan on getting because I looked at your LinkedIn profile, you're involved like five different boards, right? Or something like that. Really real high number? This is the visor and then you're on the board for like five different nonprofits and plus a gallery right?

CROSBY 1:17:03
Well, the gallery was a long time ago.

CK LIN 1:17:05
Okay, gotcha. All right. So is that the plan is to bring that business rigor into these type of nonprofits, or, at some point, there's a bigger vision to, you know, help these organizations, companies to bring more value be more value oriented?

Unknown Speaker 1:17:26
So yeah, one of the things that's happened is that my, what initially was just like a holding company that held my business assets. And I, you know, kind of supervise them as an advisor from the outside that has that's become more well formed over the last year. And I started to build out that team, I had really a great a great team. That, actually, for the last four or five years, I was I have a team here in Los Angeles, that does what I call back office services for all of my businesses, and backup services. Are these these disciplines that are requirement for any business, but are kind of independent of business model. So there's finance and reporting, and legal and HR, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And so initially, was just just practical, I wanted a back office team, because I didn't want I wanted a common set of reports to look at. Right, right. But, but that team has become more well defined and more fleshed out. And we have started to, to really think about what we do in the US kind of venture services model. And we've we actually just started to begin to provide those services to businesses that are not my businesses, right, and to provide them as services. Sure. And so that's one piece of what what happened next. I because of my business background, anything that I do, you know, inevitably I'm going to bring my my business hat to it. It's just that two superpower. Okay? Yeah, it's I mean, it's what I've spent my career doing, right. But I also recognize that's not the place by itself, where I'm going to find meaning and, and the kind of reward that I'm looking for. So, so I have a team that can provide services that are kind of the services are more on an operational level, my my advisory work, which all continue is work that I can do very flexibly and I can do the advisory work on a, you know, both multiple, you know, multiple organizations kind of in parallel, that works just fine. But where I intend where I hope to see more and more of my time and attention really located is in isn't focusing on supporting and building values based organization, and a lot of that is around, curating and spotlighting, holding up people that are engaged in practices that are in alignment with with that kind of work. That might be a more elegant way to say why I'm, you know, talking with you here is that I am very interested in. I mean, there's so many people out there in the world, they're doing good work. And there are and there are always a organizations out there who were designed at lifting those people up and and creating more exposure for them. But there's a lot of room for more of that. And like I said before, I really believe in collaboration, I believe in a community approach to the things that matter for matter to us most. And things that matter to us most, I think, you know, it's not so much the newest technology or widget or the you know, it's more about who are we as a people? And where are we going in this society? And let's, let's, let's talk about that. And let's lift up. I mean, we, we live in a world that is so wondrous. Let's, let's celebrate that. There's, there's such a tendency to focus on problems. Let's focus on how like, what a wondrous place we are in this planet. And what a wondrous people we are, even with all of our challenges we are there's such beauty and possibility in our you know, incredible diversity as a people like that. Those are things that that a lot of people doing good work in all kinds of corners of Science and Industry and so forth. That kind of work and be lifted up. Beautiful.

CK LIN 1:22:13
Do you mind if we ask you some rapid fire questions?

CROSBY 1:22:16
Sure.

CK LIN 1:22:18
So if you you had recommended nonviolent communication. Yes, nonviolent communication is one of the books any other books that you will recommend to other entrepreneurs who are listening to this who was eager to let go of their lower self, and then in service of their highest self in service, the highest value? Any books that you recommend? that comes to mind? The first three verse two that comes to mind?

CROSBY 1:22:46
You know, I don't tend to love business books. Okay. Although I was talking to somebody recently, about this, I think business I said, the whole self help boot, you know, category, which business books are definitely in that category is definitely becoming better than it was 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. I mean, I rapid fire questions. I liked creativity, Inc. I thought that was a really good story of that of that. At demo. Yeah. Yeah. I have to actually go through my audible list in order to recall I'm not great at that. So kind of thing. But But yeah, I'm cool. Um,

CK LIN 1:23:37
what are your daily habits, their morning rituals, evening ritual, anything like that as a way to best cultivate your sovereignty, your self mastery, so that you are operating from your best self.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:48
I mean, movement is a big part of it, you will find a movement, civic. I mean, I'm a runner. So yeah, I'm runner and I love yoga. I'm actually just getting back into yoga after a long hiatus, but any specific kind of yoga. Yoga? Well, I, I've been learning more about Kundalini Yoga recently. But really, the yoga that I practice and love the most is just, you know, the hoffa flow style yoga. And I don't really think I don't think of yoga as being about a type, I think of it be as it being about a Teacher, teacher who can create a space that allows me to close my eyes and focus on a voice and creates a flow of practice that really supports you know, just timing breath with movement, which is so much about what I think about yoga that that's, that's what I look for.

CK LIN 1:24:45
If you have a billboard that you can showcase in front of millions of people, what's what's one word or one phrase you were put on the Billboard, billboard? Yeah. The Tim Ferriss question?

CROSBY 1:24:58
Oh, is that right? Yeah, half as I'm listening to podcasts, either. You know, I, presence or being or something to like, again, our, in our society, we are so much about looking for the next thing like striving for the next thing. Anything that practice in my life that I try to cultivate are really to remember to take time out, even just for a moment or two, to practice some awareness and some presence.

CK LIN 1:25:32
Beautiful. Crosby, thank you so much for being here, I want to acknowledge you for a few things. We had talked about plant medicine, we talked about relationship, we had talked about your journey in growing a business or being a turnaround CEO, we had talked about how now you have this newfound purpose injecting and bring more value into organizations into businesses. So beautiful thing I look forward to well, I'm a fan. I'm also looking forward to how I can help. So for any of the listeners who are listening to your story, and they inspired by it, where can they find you? Where can they follow you We can then off data support in what you're up to a specific place you want to send them to?

Unknown Speaker 1:26:18
Oh, I mean, LinkedIn is probably the only the only kind of commonplace right now. And let me say two things. So first, you know, I've had a couple of seconds to think we know what i would i would put on a billboard, I would put something actually that's very different. When I said before, I think directives, I mean, like make something, make something because tapping into our own authorship, our own creativity and just to make anything in the world, write something down the glue something together, anything like that. I really think that creativity is so much about who we are as a human being tapping into that, more that in our world. That's a first thing. The second thing is thanks for this conversation. I really appreciate the thoughtful questions. I appreciate just being in the space with you and being able to think about some of these things in a way that I don't normally.

CK LIN 1:27:16
You're welcome my friend. All right, guys, go out and make something Thank you.