051 Mike Zappy Zapolin: The Gateway to More Empathy Everywhere

TRANSCRIPT (BY ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. IGNORE ANY ERRORS)

CK LIN  0:00  

My name is CK LIN Welcome to Noble Warrior. This is the place where we talk about the pursuit of fulfillment after achieving a high level of success & starting purpose-driven organizations. 

Today's guest is Mike Zappy Zapolin. We covered many topics in the next 90 minutes. Zappy is a serial entrepreneur who is considered a pioneer in the domain name industry. He has created internet brands such as music.com, beer.com computer.com.  Zappy is also a filmmaker. He directed the award-winning documentary film with Deepak Chopra, and Michelle Rodriguez, the reality of truth. In our conversation, he shared how he transitioned from the pursuit of the American dream to the pursuit of fulfillment and alignment. He talked about vibrating your own frequency rather than vibrating at the frequency that society expects you to. He shared his experience with different types of catalysts: psilocybin, ayahuasca, iboga, ketamine. 

He shared the benefits of these tools at the individual level, including gaining more empathy as well as competitive advantages. 

He also shared the benefits of these tools at the organizational level, including elevating the collective consciousness of the organization and improving work culture to create a disruptive company. He also shared the potential benefits of these tools at the society level. For leaders who have achieved success and are seeking more fulfillment, this is an interview you don't want to miss.

Now a little housekeeping if you want to get one of the most powerful techniques I've learned to get clarity about your greater purpose in a direct and accelerated way. Go to a noblewarrior.com/purpose.

I also want to take a quick moment to talk to you if you enjoy this episode and all the nuggets of wisdom shared here by Zappy. Please take a moment and go to bit.ly/noblewarriorreview and leave us a five-star review. You'll really help other entrepreneurs and leaders like you find us. Thanks in advance. I hope you guys love this conversation with zappy as much as I did, 

Zappy  2:16  

I'll tell you, CK, I'm honored to be here, first of all, because you and I have known each other for a number of years now not like in a close friendship, but just been staying on each other's paths and each other's radars. And for me, life got really simple when I realized that I really had one macro goal. 

When you're younger in business, and you're chasing success, and all these things that society tells you that you should go after, at a certain point, I think when you hit the point where you've done those things, and maybe you're thinking yourself, I should be feeling a different way, right now I should feel more successful, more secure, more happy. And when you're not feeling that way, that's almost when that second mountain happens where you're like, wow, I cannot just continue to do what I'm doing, because it's not bringing me that satisfaction that I was told that I was going to get by chasing this first mountain. 

And so for me, I had done what I said this in the reality of truth, but I did everything society told me to: go to work. get a job, have a family, make money, live the American dream, and that is gonna bring you all the happiness you need, and you're like, wow, I'm going for it and you do it. And when you get to a point where you're like,   “I feel happy. But there's something about myself that I need to dig deeper. I need to understand why I'm doing what I'm doing.” For me, as I was achieving the American dream: working on Wall Street becoming a vice president, becoming an entrepreneur, making millions of dollars, having a family, all these things. I was like, How can I not be 100% happy?

And I realized at that moment that I was going to have to go inside my own mind and discover really, who I was perhaps what I'm here to do, and that I felt like I had searched for all these answers outside of myself. And now it was time for me to go inside. 

Zappy  4:45  

And that's really my documentary - “The reality of truth”. That's really what was that journey. Because I had been hearing about ayahuasca and San Pedro, some of these incredible catalysts that could bring you back to your own frequency. And I realized I'm going to have to go down in the jungle. And I'm going to have to have this experience myself because of the western approach of happiness, fulfillment Is not really a complete picture. 

Now, obviously, in the future when plant medicine comes here in the United States, and people are having these inner experiences that they can add to their outer experience. That's when I think there's going to be the next level of fulfillment here in the United States. 

CK LIN  5:33  

And so quick, so quick interjection real quick, by the way, I'm gonna interrupt and choose to find more clarity on some of the terms that you use. So don't take it personally. You say happiness and fulfillment. Can you define what that means for you? 

Zappy  5:53  

Yeah. So, what I found out was that if you can resonate at your true frequency. When you were a little kid before society, your parents and the institutions around us put an imprint on you of what how you're supposed to think and feel, you have an original frequency before all that happened. And if you can get back to that, you're going to have a lot of fulfillment because I think the problem is people are vibrating at a frequency that's outside of their own true base frequency, because they're mirroring and matching other people in society's frequencies. 

And I was really lucky CK early in my life to have a psychedelic experience where I saw that everything was just energy and that everything was made up of atoms. They were all the same, but everything was vibrating at slightly different frequencies. So when I looked at my hand, and I saw these billions of atoms spinning in my hand, and I looked at it, and I said, and then I looked at my friend and I saw that he was made up of the same atoms, but he was just vibrating at a slightly different frequency than me. And the table that was in between us was vibrating at a different frequency, but it was the same atoms. I was like, Oh my god this is it? It's all about frequency. I would say I was in my late teens. Oh, wow. Okay, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, it really stuck with me because it's you can't unsee that, if I want to close my eyes and see everything at the frequency level, I now can do it, thankfully.

When I was making the reality of truth, I consciously decided to go sit with a shaman with some friends like Michelle Rodriguez the actress, right, some relatives and friends of mine. And we sat with that shaman and I thought, Okay, I'm going to I'm not going to go in there and ask for answers or what's my purpose? And sometimes people bring a lot of questions into these plant medicine or these catalysts that can break you through. And I just said,  I just want to expand my own consciousness. I want to resonate at my own frequency. And I'm not going to take anything too seriously. That was my mantra going in. 

And, when I think back about why people why there's a suicide epidemic, why there are a depression epidemic and addiction epidemic. It's because people are not vibrating at their true frequency and when you're not, you're out of alignment. That's what that whole alignment thing is is your vibrating at society's frequency or maybe your family's frequency or your career frequency. And whenever you're out of balance with your own true frequency, the frequency that you came into this world with, nothing feels right. 

And so I just want to say one thing that I think right now, the problem we're having as a society is we're having an empathy crisis. There is an empathy crisis. there's famine or illness, then you think, Oh, I want to help that person. What can I do, and then boom, the phone rings and you get distracted, you're just you care, but you're not. The difference between caring and empathy is empathy means you're able to actually put yourself into the shoes of that other person and feel that frequency. 

And as a society, we need a critical mass of people to go inside their own minds and come out with more empathy, because we just need a much higher level of actual empathy. And the only way I've ever seen people get more empathy is to have a near-death experience. Or they use some kind of a catalyst, like a plant medicine, to break them through and show them. Let them resonate in present moment awareness. let them get right back to that present moment, awareness, their own frequency. And once they get there, it's a game-changer. And then when they come back out, they have instantly more empathy. And the last thing I'll say on that is that if we had a critical mass of people with more empathy, we could solve any problem we have as a society: feminine, violence, water shortages. 

It's like when you hear those things, you go, oh my god, how are we going to sit back? But the reality is, if we had enough people resonating with enough empathy, we could sit down and say, Oh, Okay, how about the people that are going to live 100 years from now? How about the person on the other side of the world, let's, let's not just consider them but let's step into their shoes and figure out how to solve it. And I think we could solve any problem we have as a society really easily if we had enough empathy. So I'm, as a goal in my life, I want to try to bring as many people as possible to have the experience of breaking out of this current reality that we're in, that has been set for a long time but to give people instantly more empathy, and we can get to that critical mass. 

We don't have to get everybody, we just have to get a critical mass of people and for me, a lot of that has to do with young people. Those are the people that I think if we can focus on getting them to elevate their empathy, there's no limit on what they could do. 

CK LIN  12:24  

So a quick reflection on my own journey myself, I'm trained as a materialist. I have a biomedical engineering Ph.D. So if I didn't actually have any evidence, I wouldn't believe it. And I started my spiritual journey when I met the Dalai Lama, where I felt palpably his presence and then I really got me curious to know “what is this thing that I can't even touch or but I can feel it.” And as you said earlier, I really have to credit my plant medicine journeys to really help me reclaim my heart.

Zappy  13:13  

Your frequency. 

CK LIN  13:14  

Exactly, I jokingly say that I was a robot. And I found my heart through plant medicine journeys. My life is so much richer now. And I have so many more ways to experience life. And I see much more solutions to the problems I can help solve collectively as a whole. And I stopped seeing myself as being separate from the collective whole these days and that just makes my life a whole lot richer. So I definitely resonate with everything you said. 

Zappy  13:55  

And like you said, the Dalai Lama. Sometimes when you're around people like the Dalai Lama, you can feel that thing. And you can feel that affecting your frequency. And that's when you and I think, again, if we were thousands of years ago and you're out living in nature and you're one with nature, maybe you can find that state through meditation or breathing or silence or chanting or something prayer, but we're living in a society right now where there's so much information and media and bombardment happening, that it's very, very hard for people to approach what their true frequency is. And so I think, these catalysts that we have in nature, primarily these plant medicines and things. They're such an amazing tool. They're just like a tool to be able to help you to break out of that bombardment and get back to your original frequency because this is overwhelming. It's not sustainable. And you can see, as the technology increases and they're there, more and more on their screen and more and more in themselves. And they might care quite a bit, but I think their empathy and their ability to resonate at their own frequency, it's very disturbed. And it's so easy to get back there. My goal is to urge as many people as possible to use these catalysts that we have, in order to breakthrough 

and in business, people are starting to realize that this is a real competitive advantage. So coming back to business now the people that are microdosing psilocybin mushrooms or LSD, or ketamine to have a breakthrough. All these tools that you have. These are business tools because right now people are being asked to be very creative and use new techniques and new technology and new technology at such a rapid pace that as Einstein said, “You can't solve any problem with the same consciousness that got you into that.”

I quite frankly think for society that the psilocybin mushrooms in a microdose are probably going to replace all of the antidepressants at some point in the future. 

CK LIN  17:01  

So let me actually do a quick question about what you just said. So you know Maslow's hierarchy of needs. In the beginning, is physiology then security and love and belonging, then self-esteem, then self-actualization and self-transcendence, right? Do you feel that this call for more empathy, this call for more awareness is a luxury problem? You guys are doing great materially. So, therefore, you have the luxury to ask these types of questions. But for us people who have yet to climb our first mountain, we have our day to day things to worry about? What would you say to people like that? 

Zappy  17:50  

Yeah, that's a really good question. I believe that this is so central to your success in your happiness, that even if you have no money you have to figure out how to use some of these catalysts in your life, whether it's psilocybin microdose, which is extremely cost-effective. Probably you could find that for $2 per week, you could be like microdosing psilocybin. for hundreds of dollars, you could go have ketamine experience and get back to your core frequency in 45 minutes. So you don't have to go to a luxury resort. You don't have to go to Peru, you don't have to have an extreme vision quest. You can have a vision quest, right where you are, but I think like they say Oprah Winfrey meditates every day and says that that makes her more effective. And so there's a lot of people who would say, I'm too busy. Um, I got a business. I got employees, all this stuff. I can't meditate. I got no time. Not Realizing that taking that little bit of time that five minutes or that 20 minutes is actually going to make you more effective, and quite frankly, happier while you're doing it. Nobody has less time than Oprah Winfrey. So it's ridiculous for people to say they don't have the time, but that's what they manufacture. 

So to say, Hey, I can't go to Peru, I can't have this experience. Well what, for probably under $10, you could have your own vision quest. There's a lot of places now that are even becoming legal Colorado, in California, multiple Santa Cruz and Berkeley and Oakland, these places are opening up to where they decriminalize these elements. And so for very little dollars, I mean $10 or something like that. You could have an experience with psilocybin mushrooms. That would be so deep it would change the rest of your life and give you that empathy. As I said, these psilocybin microdoses in addition to eliminating all the antidepressants out there, because every time I do a psilocybin microdose I always am like, Oh my god, this is I have so much energy and I'm so, just have a positive spirit that this uplifting experience and you can get there through in your own neighborhood in your own area or go to an area where it's legal for you to go have this experience. So you don't have to go to Peru anymore. You don't have to fly to a luxury resort. Of course, if you can be in the best set and setting possible and that's going to be a great thing if you want to do that.

We're in a really beautiful moment where the Internet has democratized this information and It's not just for the rich, and it's not just for the people who have the time because everybody needs to take a little bit of this time to get back to their own frequency. And to if you want to break through and have new ideas and new thoughts and be competitively above your competition or people that you're competing against even in your own company for the best idea, if you can be bringing these ideas from a different perspective, that's really empowering.

There's like a famous saying, where they say, if you don't have an hour to meditate every day, meditate for two hours. So if you don't have time to go to have one of these catalysts to break through, then you really need to do it because you're not realizing that this life is supposed to be lived at your own frequency. you can experience joy, and you can experience your own success. And I think that that success, what that means to you when you start climbing that second mountain, that's when you really can get a lot of fulfillment from what you're doing and what you're experiencing because you're doing it based on trying to dig deeper within yourself. 

CK LIN  22:23  

So, you famously, well, let me ask you backtrack. So we met, we first met at the Milken Institute global conference, I think back in 2006. And we want to make an impression about you was that you were you famously shared the story of beer.com, creditcard.com. And how you turned $80,000 into $7 million. Right. So you were through and through an entrepreneur back then. And then since that time, we kept in touch briefly, then you start to share with sharing with me your studies with Kabbalah then you started this documentary and the reality of truth. So tell us a little bit about your journey from being a through and through entrepreneur to these days being one of the pioneers been one of the evangelist of plant medicine, these types of catalysts. Can you share with us a little bit of a journey? 

Zappy  23:31  

Yeah, absolutely. I think it really comes down to the direct experience because you can talk about something and you can philosophize, but until you have the direct experience, that can be a really hollow thing to talk about and you think about what, what, if you were to talk about which what chocolate tastes like and try to describe that and you can be really eloquent. But at the end of the day, the person is going to have to try that chocolate. And having an orgasm. These are things that you have to experience or it's just a lot of talk. And so the same thing is the case, I believe with these major catalysts, these plant medicines and things that can break you through. And for quite some time, I was talking about wanting to go down to the jungle to experience going inside with a lot of intent rather than sometimes when you're younger and you have a psychedelic experience or something. you're just doing it to try it. It's something to try, maybe it's even fun or exciting, but you're not doing it with the intent of expanding your consciousness. 

CK LIN  24:52  

Right the difference between recreational and ceremonial. 

Zappy  24:57  

yeah. And I come To the point where I was like, I need to be very intentional about going inside and trying to find what really resonates with me. And so for a long time, I kept getting invited to plant medicine ceremonies with ayahuasca in California and I kept putting it off and I was just, I was afraid? 

CK LIN  25:22  

what are you afraid of?

Zappy  25:25  

I knew it was going to be a transformational experience. I knew I was going to have to look at aspects of myself that maybe I didn't really want to look out because they're not super pleasant and that I might be shown some things about myself that I needed to change. And so I just it's something that's unknown.

As I studied as I researched, I got more and more comfortable with the plants themselves but then I said, Okay, I got to put myself in the best set and setting. I got to do this. I got to do this with somebody who really knows what they're doing and not to throw any shade on the people who were doing that in Topanga. I just knew that for me if I could do it in a set and setting where I was in the environment of the plant in the jungle with somebody who is a generational Sharman, who had been trained 5, 10, 100 generations of being a shaman that I was going to have the best experience possible.  So when I set that up for myself and said, Why don't I film this and make it into a documentary, which became the reality of truth? 

CK LIN  26:35  

Pause for one second. Yeah, there is a huge jump between “Hey, I want to do this ceremony for the first time to talking to a few of my friends and actually produce a documentary right”? That's a huge leap there. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because not everyone makes a documentary on that first experience? Yeah, 

Zappy  26:56  

no, you're right.  I think it comes down to where I was at my own life in my own head. I had in my mind really achieved what I was supposed to do that was told to me would bring me complete fulfillment. And when you're faced with that. all of us have been in a job we don't wait for a relationship that's not satisfying or something. You just reach a breaking point. You know what I mean? And you're just like, well, I don't care how much money I'm making. I don't care how it is going to do to my career, I have to take a different step. Maybe that's somebody becoming an entrepreneur going from the corporate world to an entrepreneur, but you reach this breaking point. And when you follow the American dream, and you get to the end of that, and it's not fulfillment where you rise to some level of being a champion athlete or some media star, you get to that point and everybody's like, wow, you must be so happy you're not. And it's a crisis type moment. 

at one point, I was a vice president at Bear Stearns on Wall Street, and in the top 10% of the firm as a producer, and I had to leave that behind, because I was just like, my entrepreneurial spirit.  , I thought to myself, I gotta go out on my own, I gotta do it for myself, I got to be an entrepreneur, I'm talking about all these companies, and I'm presenting these as investment opportunities. I want to be the company that's getting invested in and I don't want to be talking about somebody else's thing. So you reach this moment of crisis where I had to walk out the front door of the firm, even though I was making more money than most people make. I had to take that crisis leap and, and leave and become an entrepreneur and I was very glad I did. 

And so same thing here when I said, Hey I've always done production, I've always had elements of creating production in my efforts, whether that's commercials or social media videos and different things like that. So I always been doing that. So when I got the opportunity, and I said what, this plant medicine journey that I'm going to do for myself, it's, it's something I think I'm gonna have to capture on video, as I've done with other commercials. I've had a Superbowl ad and the 2000 Super Bowl and so I've always known that if you can do something and share it with other people, that it's gonna have an exponential effect. So I thought maybe is my way to pay it forward. Make sure that I have good experience when I do it is to capture it and be willing to share the good and the bad with everybody. I think that'll make my own experience of going inside that much richer. And so that's why I decided, yeah, I'm going to make a documentary film out of this. It was 2012 when we started, and documentaries, they're not what they are today, but it seemed like the best vehicle to get this information out. And you could I could combine the science with the actual romance of going on a journey all the way down to the jungle, and including people like Michelle Rodriguez, the actress because I felt like well if the audience sees Michelle Rodriguez going inside her mind using these catalysts they can think to themselves: well she has quite a bit to lose if this doesn't go right, and she's willing to do it. So if I am a business owner or a father or a member of my community yeah, I have something to lose, but it's probably not as big of a risk as, say, Michelle Rodriguez doing this and allowing it to be filmed. So maybe it could help people to have a breakthrough for themselves. 

CK LIN  31:27  

That's a really interesting point you just made, by the way. So was it an easy enrollment conversation with Michelle or did they require some nudging and pushing and persuading and coaxing for her to say yes, 

Zappy  31:42  

I mean, the universe is very kind and I approached her through a friend of mine and 

CK LIN  31:49  

Oh, so you didn't know her personally. So it was like a friend of a friend

Zappy  31:52  

I didn't know her personally. The person who co-directed on the reality of truth Laurent Levy. He's been a photographer for a long time. And he'd been photographing Michelle for different things. And he was friends with her. And when we decided to go, he said let's go over to Michelle's house and let's go invite her to come as one of the people, and, of course, the universe being as complicit as it is and getting whatever the best agenda possible, put through. She was in a perfect place where she was feeling like she needed to have this breakthrough in her own life. And she had heard about plant medicine and she decided that, hey zappy you set up a really good set and setting for us to go explore this and I want to do it. Like, I literally I think I walked out of her place with her passport as she gave me her passport.

CK LIN  32:55  

It's a lot of trust in one sitting. amazing.

Zappy  32:57  

Exactly. And the most recent movie that I'm finishing now, we're talking to distributors about where to put it out. features. Lamar Odom the basketball player, Kardashian. And everybody knows he had a really public breakdown, he was in a coma from a drug overdose in a brothel. He had, what people maybe don't know is that he had 12 strokes, six heart attacks, kidney failure, liver damage, all these really serious medical issues. 

And what's really interesting about Michelle and Lamar is they're both really amazing communicators, both really funny, both really eloquent, but they're beating to their own drum, because if their agent says, or their manager says, “Ah, don't do that movie. it's about psychedelics, don't sign the release don't let them film you in case this and that”, and they were both like, “Well, what I need to do this in my own life, so I'm doing it.” And so both of those guys, they resonate at their own frequency and they were both willing to pay it forward and share their experience, but they both also knew that they needed to have this experience for themselves. 

They had to have it. Michelle, at that time, she had to have the ayahuasca. And Lamar had never gone inside himself at all. Lamar had been, told by society, as an African American man, not to go inside his mind because if it went bad. 

Even within psychedelics where we need to create environments that are nurturing set and settings for everybody. If you're a white person, and you have a bad experience on psychedelics when you're a teenager, you're going to go talk to a therapist and your whole community is going to be behind you and be like, “okay, now,” but if you're an African American kid and you have a bad experience and you flip out you could be shot, you can be put in a mental institution the rest of your life. And so this is like, dangerous and unfair to minority communities.

CK LIN  35:22  

serious consequences. 

Zappy  35:24  

Lamar recognized that he really had no other choice. He tried everything else. And he said, I'm willing, Zappy, to let you guide me and go inside my mind and I want to give him some ketamine treatments, low dose ketamine, which has been shown to break depression, addiction, suicidal ideation. And when you got comfortable and stable with that, I brought him down to Mexico to do an Ibogaine journey, which is an African root that is known to be able to break heroin addiction or a meth addiction in one session. 12 hours can break those difficult experiences. 

And so he had such an incredible experience that  48 hours later on that car ride back to Los Angeles from Mexico. He told all of us in the van that he felt so good that he thought he could play professional basketball again. And his bodyguard trainer was with us and the guys said “take it easy Lamar,  you have to work out four hours a day, you can't be smoking marijuana.” And Lamar was like, “I know what I gotta do. I've done it before I'm doing it”. 

And four months later, he played in his first professional basketball game in a tournament in Dubai. And it was just like such an amazing, Rocky comeback story. To see this guy who possibly wasn't gonna walk again or even die after he came back out of the coma and stuff, maybe never be the same. And here he is playing basketball again, with no fear. 

Because he said, that's what happened to him and his experiences with the ketamine and Ibogaine is, he lost his fear. So he nearly wasn't the same player that he was. Now he's 40 when he is he was when he was in his 20s. But he almost died. Like, who cares? Like, it's just, it's having fun, he's fulfilling part of himself that he wants to explore, and he's doing it without fear because of these catalysts that broke him through. I'm really excited to share that with 

CK LIN  37:41  

how did it make you feel to be the curator of such a transformational experience? 

Zappy  37:47  

 It's just really satisfying. It's hard work and that's why not everybody does it or not even not everybody, wants to even guide people because it is. It's a lot of work. It's a deep dive. And it's not always the most comfortable situation. 

But I've been putting a title on myself because I've been trying to think about what it is that I'm doing these days and I came up with a term. Of course, I bought the domain name, but I came up with the term "psychedelic concierge". And I feel like that's what I'm doing meaning I'm not the Shaman and I don't have total expertise in these plants. I have no business giving these to anybody. I don't want to give them but I'm like a concierge. When you go let's say you're at the hotel and you're in town you don't know and you say, Oh, I want to we want to go to dinner. Where should we go? And so that concierge is going to ask you some questions. He's going to say, Well, what kind of food do you like? Okay, do you want to have a lot of people watching you want it to be romantic? Are you interested in wine? Do you want to see a show with it?  What's good for you? And then you answer those questions. They go, Ah, okay, you're gonna go here. 

And so I have enough experience now having sat with hundreds of people and having these different experiences for myself that when somebody comes to me now as a psychedelic concierge, I could say, Aha, okay, this person needs to get stabilized. And then maybe they're disconnected from nature. So they should do San Pedro. Maybe they need a hug from their mother or their grandmother so they should do ayahuasca. Maybe this person has an addiction profile or something like that. Maybe they need to do Ibogaine, or maybe they should be just micro-dosing psilocybin, but to get basically understand where they're at quickly and then make the right determination about what balance of things they should do. 

This feels really good to me because I get so much satisfaction after the person does it. because with plant medicine and with these catalysts, that the transformation is immediate. It's different than if you're following somebody who's on a diet program or health routine or something, and there have been several months or years to get to where they want. This could be one hour, one day, they transform themselves, they get back to their own frequency. 

CK LIN  40:26  

I love it. That's awesome. So would you say this is your second mountain?

Zappy  40:34  

Yes, I would say this is my second mountain. And one of the best advice I got when I was going into my second mountain was Joel Olsteen, the preacher and it wasn't advice. I thought he was going to give. I thought he was going to be closed-minded about psychedelics and all these different things that I was talking about, and he really wasn't. It was really amazing to me. 

He was very resonating with his own frequency. So he wasn't afraid to talk about these things or to contemplate whether something I was saying could actually be right or new information. But what he said to me when we hung out, he said, “zappy I thought about it,” he goes “you're gonna have to approach getting psychedelics out to society, the way I approach getting people to come to what I do with Christianity,” “I'm Christian, and I have a lot of Christians that don't like me, they don't think I'm telling people, they're going to go to hell enough. And here we are, we're all Christians, and they don't like me, they actually don't like me. And it's like, so what you have to do is you have to recognize that there are 25% of the people that love you. No matter what you do, they're on your team. They love you. Don't worry about that. You think you have 25% of the people that hate you, no matter what you do. If you cure cancer, they're going to say you're putting cancer doctor out of business.” He's like, “so forget about that. It's like, but you got this 50% in the middle that you could bring over to your side, and you have your critical mass right there. He's like, so just forget about all the people that love it. And the people that hate it, don't worry, just go for the middle.” And for me, the middle is the youth audience.  The young people who can they're, they've been taken out of their original frequency, but they're not so far gone, that they're in the 25% that are just completely jaded. That 25 % they'll come along in the end by osmosis and change of everybody else.

It was such good advice because I used to get frustrated, I'd say, “oh, everybody does plant medicine.” And people be like, Oh, so and so to do it. Now. I was like, you know what, I don't need so and so to do it. I just need the people in the middle to come over and check this out, have the direct experience, increase their empathy. And that's how we get to this critical mass. And I don't have to think one more thought about those people that aren't on the squad are never going to be on the squad or not on the first way. So as soon as I got that information, it freed me up going into my second mountain, I said “I'm going to be an advocate 1)for going inside your mind, 2)for trusting nature and 3)for not taking anything too seriously. Those are going to be my three pillars of getting up that second mountain. And that it feels really good and 

at the same time as that second mountain for me now I've got to get even more granular in what my approach should be. So for a while, I came back from Peru and I was ranting to everybody you got to go sit with a shaman and people were like, Oh you're nuts Zappy. My family's not gonna let me go down to the jungle and sit with a shaman, they'll Baker Act me they'll put me in a mental institution if I tell them I'm doing that. 

So I was I was really frustrated. I gotta find a western medicine approach to this. And all of a sudden, I was shown ketamine and ketamine is an FDA approved medication. Yep, it's the number one anesthetic used by oral surgeons on children. Yes, that's very acting and it's extremely space. It's just your respiratory system. But they found out that if you give somebody a low dose of ketamine over a 45 minute period, it can actually break depression, suicidal thoughts, anxiety and even affect the addiction. at the end of the day, Addiction is all about some trauma that people are trying to cover over. They're not really just like addicted to the drug itself. 

So I was like, wow, I got to try this ketamine I wound up trying it and I realized that this is the gateway for Western culture to have a conscious experience in a western medicine doctor's office, you go in there and the ketamine, they give it to you in either an IV over 45 minutes or they give you an intramuscular shot of ketamine. over 45 minutes the experience lasts. But what's beautiful is after that experience is over 16 minutes later, you're totally fine. You can go walk out and go get a smoothie and an hour later or whatnot, go back to work or hang with your kids. Go exercise, whatever you want to do.

It's got to complete experience within this very tight clinical one hour. And when I realized that I was like wow, this is could be the gateway to plant medicine to Western society going as deep as they need to to get back in touch with their frequency. 

And I say that because when you experience the ketamine which a lot of people think even plant medicine people like all that synthetic blah blah blah, it's not synthetic, okay, it's a crystal and you put some salts and some minerals together and a new crystal forms, which is amazing because as we know, crystals have a very clean slate. You can put positive energy on them. But what's interesting is putting some salts and minerals together and forming this new ketamine crystal is no different than an ayahuasca shaman, taking the vine of the ayahuasca vine and putting it together with the chacruna leaf, right and boiling those two and making ayahuasca

It's just a modern approach to move around energies and frequencies. And so when you do the ketamine, and you have that experience, it's very peaceful. But what happens is you get put into what I would call present moment awareness, where there's actually no future. There's no past, you're just in that present moment. And when and most people never get there, even if they meditate in a cave for 30 years, never mind, walking around in 2020.  Western culture never gets into that present moment awareness with no fear of the future, no regret of the past. And when you're in that present moment for 45 minutes, you can live 1000 lifetimes, and you get to look at your life and some of these things that happen from a third party perspective. And when you come out, you immediately have more empathy for yourself and for everybody else. 

And the fact that we can do this in a Western doctor's office with an FDA approved medication is such a godsend because this is what's going to bring a critical mass of people to go inside have this experience and come out with more empathy. Yeah, I am really excited about it. I mean, I've sat with hundreds of people now who've done ketamine, some of them were suicidal, they had like bandages on their arms where they tried to kill themselves. Some of them had come back from extreme PTSD and in Battlefield situations, some had horrible car accidents or illnesses or death in their family, things that just disrupt your ability to function.

and in one session, by getting into present moment awareness, by being in that God-conscious moment for yourself is incredible but also the ketamine has this almost like advanced technology, where, when you're in there... usually when somebody is suicidal, they think, “okay, I am going to keep doing what I'm doing or I am going to kill myself, those are the only two options I have.” But when you're in the ketamine, all of a sudden you see a dozen options, and the person is looking at and they're going, Wow, what I can do that which might lead to that, or I like doing this, and maybe I could do this and this and that would and you just follow their option sets are open. And so when they come out, they're not suicidal, they're like they're on to do their second mountain. And it's so fast and so effective and so clinical that I really believe nature's very intelligent and it's coming out with these plants, and it's coming out with catalysts like crystals and we're at a point now as a society where we understood science and biology and language and all these things that we can finally tap into some of these things and measure their effectiveness and combine elements to figure out what the best catalysts are. 

But it turns out that ketamine is really it's the ultimate triage right now. It's the ultimate way for a Western person who's really comfortable with going into a doctor's office taking an FDA approved medication that's been shown to be very safe, and go in there for depression or addiction that kind of thing but come out with enlightenment and increased empathy. And when that happens, it totally changes your whole life. 

And most people don't have to do as many treatments as a person who has treatment resistant depression, which you University said is to do six treatments of ketamine over a couple of weeks. And then to do one booster treatment every month or few months based on where your depression is. 

What is happening in the ketamine is they've shown scientifically that when it metabolizes it builds new neural pathways in the brain around trauma and depression. So you're actually building new brain matter, new neurons, fixing broken ones and a lot of us neuron patterns in our brain that we may have inherited, or maybe they came from a traumatic experience, but there are loops in the psyche that people have where they say, Oh, I'm a failure. I'll never work out I'm a loser. I can't work. Nobody's gonna love me. They have these patterns. They filter everything through those patterns and ketamine breaks that pattern bill new neural pathways around those patterns that aren't real anyway and not productive. And now you're building up these pathways that are your own quit because the ketamine absolutely everyone who does it describes that frequency that when that hits you, it's very calming, it's very peaceful, but you come out the resonating at your own frequency. And that's to do that and 45 minutes that's why Cleveland Clinic called ketamine, a top 10 medical breakthrough. And it was the only mental health one, which means it's basically the biggest breakthrough in mental health. That's happened in the last hundreds of years. 

CK LIN  52:43  

Hmm, beautiful. So let me recap you said a lot in the last 10 minutes. So let me recap real quick, the number one thing that I took away so you started your journey back in 2012. And then now you stumble upon ketamine As a gateway to solve PTSD, depression, anxiety overwhelm, especially for those who are not adapted or well-tuned to the world of psychedelics, and it's a fast treatment 45 minutes FDA approved very safe, Western, a custom type of setting. So, therefore, you're really focusing on those areas and using ketamine as a way to really solve this problem in the area of mental health, specifically, is that a good way to recap?

Zappy  53:43  

perfectly accurate and I would say, Well, what I decided to do, along with a business partner named Warren Gumpel and I started something called the Ketamine Fund. Warren was involved with me with the Lamar movie and helping Lamar to Have those ketamine treatments and Warren said that ketamine saved his life he had depression and he was on all kinds of medications for years and years and nothing was working. And he finally found the ketamine and after just a couple sessions, it is he felt in his entire life. And he realized that he needed to advocate for this. 

And so, we came together and we started something called the ketamine fund, which is a nonprofit dedicated to bringing down suicide rates by 75% using ketamine. And those numbers come from doctors in ketamine space who say that this is over 75% effective against suicidal ideation. And so Warren and I decided to try to focus on it rather than putting it out on all of society to begin with. 

We thought let's focus on veterans. They really need it. They deserve it. And they're in extreme situations of suicidal and homicidal ideation. And so we put together a ketamine fund,  501(c)(3), you can check out ketaminefund.org. We put together 400 free treatments for veterans with like a mini clinical trial. We fill out a standard mood monitoring assessment each time they do the ketamine and it's called a Ph.Q 9 and we so we've been putting these veterans through and some of them were on 20 plus medications from the VA somewhere suicidal somewhere abusing recreational drugs just to numb the pain and they start getting the ketamine treatment they get put into present moment awareness. They vibrated their own frequency, and they've got new neural pathways in the brain.

You can see some videos on ketaminefund.org, where there are veterans talk about after the first time they did it being in a whole new state of mind. And I just want to say that the ketamine, the new science out on the ketamine is that it works on the default mode network of your brain, which is like an ancient area of your brain. And what it does is there's a mechanism in there called your lateral habenula (LHb) and your lateral habenula (LHb) records all the stress that's ever happened to you in your entire life. And when it gets overwhelmed, it gets to a tipping point, it goes into burst mode, which is another total brain state and it shuts off your dopamine production, which is the source of your happiness and your motivation to do anything. And so it shut down. And the ketamine The first time you do it, it takes your brain out of breath. mode. So you immediately start getting your dope in the mat. 

And the doctor in Utah is running our clinical trial with the veterans. Dr. teamster(?), he says he used to think that depression was like a really complex thing. And he's like, it's actually really simple. You're not getting your dopamine and the ketamine turns back on your dopamine. So you're walking around smelling the flowers, instead of looking for the tiger to come out from around the corner. It's like a better way of life. And so we want to get this. 

Our goal of the ketamine fund is to prove this within the veteran community to bring this out to the rest of society. And we can bring down suicide rates by 75%. We have 120 people a day in the United States committing suicide. The numbers are actually a lot higher because a lot of the overdose that happened is intentional. But that let's say 120, that's 50,000 people a year. If we could use ketamine very cost-effective, it's incredibly cost-effective, and disrupt that by 75%. I don't need to save all those people, but you save their family and their co-workers and their community from having to go through that drama. And you're, you're talking about totally changing society just by doing that. And then you also make these people a productive member of society.  

we talked about how we met at the Milken global conference. Well, Mike Milken main philosophy is that we need to invest in human capital. That's where you get the most return on your investment is in human capital. So if you can take somebody from suicidal homicidal affecting their family, their workplace, in their community, to a thriving member of that community, you've just tipped the whole balance of human capital and you've got a whole incredible mind army that can bring out this, this empathy and get down to solving these problems that we have. 

So we're in a great time. This couldn't have happened years and years ago when the internet wasn't democratizing media and we didn't have basic medical science and data and the things that we have today. Now we can look at your brain under a ketamine treatment using an MRI and they can actually see the area of the brain where depression and addiction take place. They can see that periaqueductal gray, they can see new dendrites forming on there. So this is beyond anecdotal, this is science.

Thankfully Western medicine discovered ketamine.  A long time ago, what was happening was they were using it on the battlefield. And when people were getting amputations because they wouldn't have to have an anesthesiologist, or they were just giving the ketamine and the person would just not feel the pain and then they could do their operation safely. And the next day, these guys who just had their arms or legs cut off or some horrible thing, are in the infirmary and they were joking around. And the people were like, wait a minute, this guy hasn't joked around in two years, and he just got his arms cut off. Now he's joking, like, what's up, and he realized that it had something to do with ketamine and Yale University did a huge study. And they realized that low dose, not a high dose where you put somebody to sleep. But in a low dose, you could actually build neural pathways and break depression.

One other thing Because I know probably some people have heard about ketamine and they've heard that people use this recreationally. They call it Special K, right. And it's used in nightclubs and things like that. But what those people are doing is they're actually snorting ketamine. So it's going through their nasal passage and sending their opiate receptors and their own they're getting it in a totally different delivery. And they're not able to do the work while they're in there. And they're not able to get that metabolized proper metabolization that you get in a low dose over time. And so those people that are recreationally using it are not getting the same benefit as somebody going into a doctor's office getting a low dose in the right way and metabolizing it properly. So it's kind of been vilified in the past probably by moneyed interests like the pharmaceutical companies that want to sell you their antidepressants. And though Xanax and Zoloft and all that stuff.

When the reality is if somebody did low dose ketamine got back to their original frequency, increase their empathy and built neural pathways in their brain around whatever trauma they have, that's a much better holistic solution than putting you on some pill that's going to dampen your spirit and ultimately give you side effects that are going to require other medications and eventually you're gonna be in a miserable place. 

CK LIN  1:02:44  

So zappy, you started this journey back in 2012 when your own search for fulfillment and meaning with ayahuasca, and now you are an advocate for ketamine in the US. You’ve set up this Ketamine Fund, right? So you're quite open and in public about your advocacy for these life-changing catalysts. How has life shifted from for you personally since 2012 till today?

Zappy  1:03:17  

that's a good question I   I feel like since I got back to my read the frequency and I will want more instead of wasn't important for me is that I Ibogaine treatment on myself because I just I wanted to experience it I couldn't understand for myself having already been sort of a psychonaut and trying a lot of different things. I was like how could something break a heroin addiction in 12 hours that doesn't even make sense. I gotta try this.

I wound up trying the Ibogaine. It's a very powerful experience. It comes from an ancestor based religion in Africa where they use to communicate with ancestors and get back to basically their original frequency. And they have been giving it now for heroin addictions and meth addictions. And I wanted to try it, I tried it out. It was, it was one of the most intense experiences of my life. But at the same time, I was able to look at things within myself that maybe I needed to change that toward things that didn't resonate with my frequency, and I had to accept that and it was a great experience, there's a physical reboot that it does on you, in addition to the mental reboot that it does, and so, that was really a great experience. 

And then when I found the ketamine I feel like I'm as creative if not more creative than I've ever been in my life. The solutions that are coming to me, the things that are happening seem to be enhanced by the direct experiences I've had with some of these catalysts. When you're an entrepreneur and you're on the cutting edge there's a lot of pushback. And if you're not resolute in your belief and your own frequency, you're going to be pushed off the mark. 

I'll just give you an example. When I first started getting into the domain space, I was like, wow, this is incredible. You could internet you're going to be able to track your results and people can use these domain names and they're going to have more credibility in the future. And so I was telling everybody Hey, you got to get a domain and the domain name and I would talk to somebody, a real estate agent, let's say and whatever Greenwich Connecticut and I'd say hey, you should get   realestateGreenwich.com you should get Greenwich.com. You should get realestateConnecticut.com and they were like I don't need it. I already got a website. My business is referral based. I don't need it. I don't think this Internet's gonna be whatever it's supposed to be? Oh, my God how do they not see it, but I just kept going forward. And then people started to think that people who were supposedly technology experts said, Oh, yeah, domain names, those are going to go away. People are just going to search and there's not going to be domains anymore. It's all going to be apps.

it's things that they tell you that could disrupt you. Either disrupt your enjoyment or disrupt the path that you're on, you can get distracted and disrupted by people when you're on the cutting edge. And so but knowing who you are and having conviction in, in what you're what your belief is, the stronger that is, as an entrepreneur, the more effective you're going to be. 

So, even though yeah, I could hear the top guy Google might have said, or, some company, yeah, domain names have over, it's all apps or it's all direct search or it's all navigation, this and that. It didn't mean anything to me. I was just like, well, that's your opinion. But I keep seeing that. More and more people are coming on the internet and direct search metal continues to be domains that have credibility beyond just search combined. So, in my own experience, I wasn't taken off the bat. 

And I think as an entrepreneur, if you're not vibrating at your own frequency, there's a lot of experts who can tell you why what you're doing is wrong. And then when you fall for that, you might give away your big home run winner because you got disrupted by somebody else's limited reality. 

CK LIN  1:07:53  

One of the things that I learned from my Ph.D. days is that in the beginning before my Ph.D. days, I found All right, whatever the scientist or the expert says must be true. Then from my own study, I realized that you can always find research results supporting your opinion that you wanted to have so you always kind of find support everywhere. So, regarding the naysayers of your venture is you always find it that way. So, on that note, being a public psychedelic advocate, what kind of push backs are you experiencing? Because you're very public, are you getting any kind of pushback from other people?

Zappy  1:08:44  

I think we're in this empathy crisis moment and if you look around in society, I have celebrities come to me to help guide them. I have top business leaders who if I say their name, your jaw would drop that, oh my god, they needed this experience.  family offices, people coming to me just, wealthy industrial families. These are now the generation that is taking over and they're like,  what, I don't know why I feel bad about the position. I mean, I don't know how to help. I don't know how to do the best with this. I think I need to have some type of experience to help me align with what I'm supposed to do. And so I've been a psychedelic concierge guide to these people and on a public-facing front. We have Lamar Odom and Michelle Rodriguez and Tim Ferriss and Michael Pollan, and all these Joe Rogan's and all these intelligent, thriving people talking about how they are using these catalysts. It's getting easier and easier.  Years ago, people would be like, "Oh, God don't talk to that guy or don't invite him to that party because it's gonna go bad" but now it's like, I don't care where I am, I could be in a startup company, I could be in a wall street private equity multi-hundred billion dollar firm, philanthropists, celebrity and all of them immediately say, they tune in to what I'm saying and, and all of them want to have some level of experience and direct experience with these catalysts. Now, it's out.

CK LIN  1:10:44  

So from your point of view, very little pushback, most of them are welcoming, if not curious at least about your personal experience or research you've seen and the other people's testimonials as well. Is that an accurate way to reflect back what you said?

Zappy  1:11:03  

Very accurate. And I think the difference right now between us using these catalysts in a positive way, and maybe what happened 50 years ago when these things became illegal is that back then there used to be only three television networks:ABC, NBC and CBS and only a couple big newspapers or magazines that carried any credibility. So if they wanted to make this go away or sound like hippie, trippy things, they could do it. 

But now with the internet democratizing information take cannabis, for example. There's enough people now who've done cannabis who never would have, but now if the establishment or some study comes out and they say, oh, cannabis might not be good. Well these people are like, well, it's working for me and I feel better and might help seems to be better. So I'm just going to continue to do it. And there's enough information Behind that to support their belief. 

And so I really believe nature is very, very intelligent, and it recognizes that people are very stressed, and they're experiencing new types of diseases that we've never had before. So it's bringing out these natural elements cannabis, ayahuasca, Iboga. And it's recognizing that almost like through the marijuana and cannabis by not being ubiquitous within society, and people having their own direct experience, that for the first time they're saying, Oh, well, this seems to be good for me. So all the stuff that I was told about it being bad, I realized that that wasn't true or it was incorrect. And so what else are they incorrect about? These catalysts like psilocybin, ayahuasca, or ketamine. Could this be something that could positively affect my life? Without having to be a taboo thing that they do in the private set and setting. It's very public. 

And I think I want to tell you one quick story. There's a CBD company called hemp lucid in Salt Lake City, Utah, and I am friendly with them and they are a part of the treatment that we gave to Lamar was integrating CBD into his life as well. And as I got to know that I started to bring a few of the executives to the ketamine places that we have a relationship with. And they started to get rid of a lot of their PTSD and trauma that they had and started to feel more resolute in their conviction and their vision for what was happening in business life. 

And then Chase Hudson, who's the CEO, became so compelled by what was happening with the people who had done ketamine that he decided to offer the ketamine treatments to everybody in his, in his company on top management. So he gave to 20 people who went to do multiple treatments. 

And now as a unit, they're thriving their work. They're working as well as they ever work better and they're just they're thriving at a much higher level the business as a totally exploded, and they're thriving because they're all resonating at this frequency and they understand what other people have. They have empathy for their other people. So there's not any backstabbing anymore. There's no competition. It's all a very focused energy on getting their product and their number one initiative out.

I think that's like the future of work in the future of being an entrepreneur and having employees Or in corporate culture having employees? It's used to be just yeah, you pay him or you give them health insurance, right? But now you have there's so low unemployment so low that you have to attract these people and keep them in a way that's going to be satisfactory for them. And that includes now meditation, breathing rice, different catalysts, could you bring them an experience that's gonna really solidify them with the group and strengthen them as an individual so you get the most you can out of them. And I think this is the future of work is paying attention beyond the work environment but having to bring something to the table for everybody on a mental and spiritual well-being level. 

You are talking to a former head of culture for a startup that grew from 20 people to 200 people from an idea to valuation of 9-fig plus. So you are definitely preaching to the choir, I can't wait to really see companies offering a benefit, like what you just described because, in my mind, we make what we are. So if we individually as well as collectively as a team are more aligned, the product services that we offer to our clients are definitely a lot more aligned in more onpoint. couple more questions. One is for those people who are psychedelic in their psychedelic closet, what would you say to them?  , from someone who has now been super public super, and then advocacy about their psychedelic use. You even started a psychedelic concierge organization, what would you say to those who are passive participants in their psychedelic closet?

Yeah, I would say really, this is the time to embrace it. Because if you embrace it publicly, and this becomes recognized for what it is, which is an incredible tool in the toolset of mental health, in performance-based lifestyle, that if you're early to that, you're going to have your own strategic advantage. And you're also going to be recognized as being at the forefront of this. And I think if you wait till later to become part of this community of people that are talking and sharing this to be part of that it's so fulfilling. It's so rewarding to be talking to people who are like-minded You and I. 

We don't know each other as a friend from college or something, but we have this part of ourselves through this plant medicine that we're so aligned on that I, I can have a conversation with you for three days, I can align with you immediately in business because I don't have to question where your intention is, I don't have to wonder if you're if I'm reading you properly, I just know that I am based on our shared frequency experience that we're we're having. So there's no reason not to embrace it now, especially kind of like if you embrace cannabis in 2012.  Obviously, right now, nobody's going to say that that was a negative thing. 

And I think, if even in the corporate cultures, and I call this Internal engineering, what it is that you're trying to do, you're trying to internally engineer yourself to, and your company to have a really solid frequency and foundation. So if you can, everything you're experiencing on the outside is based on how your how things are resonating internally. So the best thing to do from a corporate culture standpoint, whether you're 20 people or 200 people if you can set a corporate culture that includes tuning into that frequency, group effect, be that meditation or taking your group to do a legal cacao ceremony, or taking a retreat and doing a plant medicine experience with your leadership team, more funding ketamine for everybody because everybody has some PTSD. And then you benefit, just like Oprah Winfrey, she taught her 200-person staff to do meditation because she knew that that was going to create this collective consciousness that was going to be much stronger than anything else. 

And I think here, what we're talking about is, of course, in a vacuum years ago, and decades and hundreds of years ago, just sitting down and meditating and being in nature probably would be effective. But we're living in this culture where all this bombardment of media and just all this advertising and everything's coming at you. And if you, your employees, and your team is not strong, you're going to be disrupted at some point. And you're definitely not going to get the most out of your people. 

But if you could just align everybody's frequency and that's what this internal Engineering is all about is just getting everybody on the same page of understanding what that number one most important reason for being for the company is and align with that and also be resolute in their own frequency. There's, I mean, that's how you create a behemoth from a little company and you can take on anybody, but if you're running around trying to deal with things in a regular approach it's gonna be very difficult to keep employees and you're certainly not going to be thriving on the cutting edge. 

That takes a different level of thinking, and thank goodness now we know that there are these catalysts that can very gently take people to that path and that thought process and that creativity, and you can unleash it for any company regardless of size. And it doesn't have to be an expensive thing. These are a lot of things that you can do very cost-effectively. But the results are so huge that It's incredible And quick

CK LIN  1:22:13  

for sure. I mean, one of the things you really think about is just even hiring one engineer and minimally, you're spending six figures, right, maximally, seven figures, right? So what is the ROI, if you're able to unleash your percentage of their creativity so that's just one person, not to mention their entire payroll. I mean, so for anyone that's really listening to this obviously, I'm a little biased, but I'm a huge advocate for everything you just proposed.

Zappy  1:22:47  

Yeah. And, and even like when you have when you're projecting what your company's worth if you have 100 engineers, you could probably justify why that's 100 million dollars plus enterprise. Just based on that, and so how do you keep those engineers there? How do you keep them from leaving? How do you keep them from being distracted? because something happened at home or in the business or in their life or health-wise? And how do you keep their eyes on the prize? Now we know we have these tools where we can focus everybody's attention.

Ultimately I'm really looking forward to the day that psilocybin micro-dosing with psilocybin mushrooms is a regular everyday kind of thing like fluoride in the water because I think when people are vibrating at a high frequency has a lot of energy, and these psilocybin mushrooms are doing all this incredible healing that that's just a better way to be walking around in society. And if everybody's walking around at a high frequency with a lot of empathy things that used to seem like a problem are actually an opportunity.

CK LIN  1:24:04  

Absolutely. zappy Thank you so much for sharing, I acknowledge you for sharing your journey from selling beer to now helping people alleviate suffering. That's awesome to watch from a third-party point of view, watching your growth and projection.

Zappy  1:24:31  

I appreciate it. I just believe in sharing these things and now with cell phones and everything, so easy to share that when you do have the experience yourself and you share it it really is like it accelerates the benefits that you're getting. So I'm psyched to share it. I wouldn't know what to do other than to share it because I'm so excited about it. It's just great that we now all have the tools to share the things and we can do it cost-effectively and we can help somebody else. 

CK LIN  1:25:04  

Beautiful. Absolutely for those people listening, who want to follow up with your story, your narratives and as well as what you're up to, where should they go to follow what you're doing.

Zappy  1:25:21  

So I can definitely direct them maybe to Zappy.com where you could find some of these elements, I would definitely tell you to watch the reality of truth on YouTube or on amazon prime or Gaia network. It's been we've now had over 7 million people watched the reality of truth. And it's a really great way to get a lot of information and see a lot of people's direct experience in one hour and to make a determination and a decision from there about how it resonates with you. And then I would say Definitely check out Odomreborn.com that's like the website for the Odom reborn documentary. And then lastly, I'll say check out ketaminefund.org. You can see some of these videos of these veterans having these incredible immediate transformations. And some of those stories and learn about ketamine for yourself because everybody's got some trauma. And everybody has PTSD, quite frankly, if you turn on the TV and watch the news, right now, you're gonna have PTSD. So you're gonna have to break yourself out of that someway somehow, and possibly ketamine. If you're living in this Western society could be a great way for you to explore that. So I would check out those resources.

CK LIN  1:26:49  

So actually, quick question. One thing I did forget to ask you. Some people who let's just look at severity as a benchmark, somebody who is suicidal ideation, they know, they have depression and anxiety, PTSD. So they're actively seeking help, right? And some of the people who are listening for this there may not have that level of severity. 

What are some of the symptoms they would see? Let's say if we were watching the former you or whoever you have helped on a movie screen? What are some of the symptoms they would see on the movie screen? For them to say, oh, okay, so these are behaviors that I should watch out for?

Zappy  1:27:42  

Yes. I mean, I would say if you're feeling anxiety if you're feeling not fulfilled if you're feeling a lack of hope, a lack of joy.

CK LIN  1:27:58  

Yeah, but those are emotions. It's hard to point to and say, “okay, that's the kind of behaviors I should watch out for.” So, if we were to watch the people that you have helped on a movie screen, what would they see?

Zappy  1:28:15  

They would see that everybody's a human being they would see the human side of these people. And what they would see in that movie is you can look at the energy of Michelle Rodriguez at the beginning of the movie, then you can look at her energy after she did the San Pedro. And then you can look at her energy after she did the ayahuasca. And then you can look at her energy after she came back and let's say her friend, Paul Walker died during that time. And then you can look at her thriving in the latest installation of the fast and furious and you can see her evolution of her energy. 

So when you're watching that, looking at this, just look at those people's energies, it will be very apparent to you that their energy is vibrating at a much more true frequency to themselves. And, and that you can see on screen, it's bringing them joy, it's bringing them fulfillment and their everyday life because we all have to fight battle today and fight it again tomorrow. And when you see somebody doing it with satisfaction, joy. You can't emulate their energy; You have to find your own frequency. And then when you get to that, you can't help but radiate positive energy. 

CK LIN  1:29:44  

I appreciate this. zappy thank you so much for sharing your story once again.

Zappy  1:29:48  

You too, appreciate what you're doing and sharing this. it's always been cutting edge in this is I 'm happy to be part of it. So thank you.

CK LIN  1:29:58  

Awesome. Now a little housekeeping if you want to get one of the most powerful techniques I've learned to get clarity about your greater purpose in a direct and accelerated way, go to a noblewarrior.com/purpose. I also want to take a quick moment to talk to you. If you've enjoyed this episode and all the nuggets of wisdom shared here by zappy. Please take a moment and go to bit.ly/noblewarriorreview and leave us a five-star review. You really help other entrepreneurs and leaders like you find us. Thanks in advance.