142 Ramsay Taum: Hoponopono, Hawaiian wisdom, and finding inner harmony

[00:00:00] CK Lin: Welcome to noble warrior. My name is C Kalen. Noble warrior is where interview leaders thought leaders about the journey to deeper purpose, deeper joy. So you can do the same. My next guest, super excited to have him is a well-respected practitioner and teacher of native Hawaiian practices.

And he is especially effective at integrating native Hawaiian cultural values and principles into contemporary business practices. He's the founder of live enhancement Institute of the Pacific. You are interested if you love what he's saying, go to Bitly, slash truth beyond limits. You'll find all of his future talks and engagements and teachings.

Welcome kumu Ramsey, Tom.

[00:00:47] Ramsay Taum: thank you CK. I really appreciate the invitation and thank you for having me on the show, looking forward to it.

[00:00:55] CK Lin: So I wanna bring back to why I was very [00:01:00] moved by who you are. We were at the anyone gathering and you were speaking about oppo also, uh, Aloha. Yes. And also Hawaii. In these words that we use, what we hear a lot in, especially in the, in the spiritual community.

And, you know, we have certain perception of what that is and you start to articulate what they are. And the thing I especially appreciate is you don't just go into the esoterics and the theoretical, um, teachings. Rather, you brought it to a very personal, uh, encounter with a hit and run driver. And how that triggered you, but also gave you a moment of teaching for yourself.

And I really appreciate that you weren't just a monk from the mountaintop speaking about truth, but rather you made it very human, very [00:02:00] relatable. So could you tell us that story a little bit?

[00:02:03] Ramsay Taum: Yeah. Well, thank you for that. Um, I, I thought that was an important opportunity. One for myself, but for others, because there's a tendency, you know, for us to, or anyone to describe things right.

As we prescribe them, but we may not have actually lived through them. In other words, the old thing of talking out of school so I, I felt it was important to indicate as I have with my students that while I may aware I'm not immune. And it's important for us to continue living the practice, you know, just talking about it.

But if I may, uh, start by, um, saying hello to all of your guests and, uh, allow us to connect to the energy of [00:03:00] that image behind me, this is more on a NOI, the Pacific and where my home is and where I'm from. If I may just say these few things,

a law, a, a law, uh, I start off with that phrase because, uh, it speaks to the connectedness about unifying mind, body, and spirit. Mm. And it is a unification that we become, uh, centered in self. and hopefully a little less self-centered. Mm. The other part of it is to nurture and care for that unification through all time.

It acknowledges that we're all connected you and I, and the space around us and all that occupy that space past, present in the future. And [00:04:00] I start out with that because it goes to your question. Why and what was that story all about as a practitioner of hope? Puno we talk about forgiveness. The Hawaiian practice of hope Puno is a forgiveness practice.

So practice of making right, putting things in proper order. And I say that because it's a little different than saying it's a practice to fix. So look at all the definitions of, uh, you won't find the term to fix it's really about creating a preferred or better condition. so in the process of teaching and sharing these concepts, uh, it could be perceived that, you know, it doesn't happen to us.

It's one thing to, to talk about it, but to really live mm-hmm . So it happened on a, a particular Sunday, um, morning when I was on my way to I meet my mom, I was actually [00:05:00] planning to pick her up and, uh, in the process there were several detours. And so I contacted her and said, I'll have to meet you. Um, in the meantime, I have to take another route and the process of taking that route.

Um, I came to a stop sign and I had the right of way. And as I made the left turn onto the street, the man that was at the stop sign, presumably stopped, continued through the stop sign and struck my vehicle. Fortunately, I wasn't injured. I was able to avoid a major calamity, but in the process of that, that, um, that meeting, he took off.

And so it was a hit and run. And as I sat there, um, I found myself getting much annoyed and [00:06:00] irritated, but before allowing myself to go into that particular space, I drew upon the practice, uh, and really found myself needing to go into that space, uh, for whole one upon for hope opponent. And while I was headed to a place to conduct prayer with my mother, I never got there, but I did conduct prayer.

Mm. And that prayer at that moment was guided by and inspired by this notion of hope opponent to make right. And it was really, um, a basis of clearing myself. I really had to get into a space to release whatever anger, frustration, annoyances that I had. Mm. Um, in order to conduct the rest of my day and move, move forward.

And so the first, uh, phase of that was really to ask for [00:07:00] forgiveness, uh, for my ancestors and myself, for anything that we had done that created a condition that allowed me to be in that place at that time, because other people weren't there. It was me mm-hmm and things had led up to my make decision making that put me there at that time to meet this driver who obviously was in a rush or had some other things going on in his life that not allowed him to hit me.

but also to evade further engagement. So, um, the practice then was to ask for apologies and say whatever it was that we created, that I created, please forgive us in a reciprocity, which is part of the all law principle of giving and receiving I, and my ancestors then proceeded to forgive him and his ancestors [00:08:00] to do the same for whatever they had done that created the opportunity for us to come together for this engagement planned or unplanned.

It is in that reciprocity agreement of giving and receiving the whole opponent intends to make, right, because I could now move forward. It didn't release him of his obligations, but it released me and my ancestors from any ongoing continued aggravation. Of having to deal with that. Now I obviously had to deal with the insurance and all those kinds of things.

But as far as that individual, I was able to release that mm-hmm and in that revealing, there was some healing, not just for myself, but others whom I shared the story with as an object lesson. Mm-hmm because it is in, in that, uh, mindset of recognizing our, our [00:09:00] practice in the contemporary word, you hit me, I hit you, you hit me back.

I hit you back. How many iterations do we go through before we realize that we're doing more damage than correction, right? At some point in time, some someone has to stop, uh, or encourage them to stop. Right. And in the event that you're not. In physical proximity. In fact, the process actually works with departed souls.

Mm-hmm we may want to reconcile with it also works with those who are inbound in dissipation of their arrival, that if we have created any conditions that, uh, could create adversarial relationships that we erase those or begin to work on. So the purpose for doing it one for myself and my [00:10:00] family, the second to share any story was as an object lesson, for those who might think that the process is just a cursory activity, right.

Or that you can tell others about it without act exercising it. So I was hoping to make it a demonstration of how. And when something like that would be utilized, not just when things are hunky do right when everything's fine and the tigers are in their cages and you're in your nice home and you can do your process.

Mm-hmm , this is really about being in the present right? In the space mm-hmm and going to that space of peace.

[00:10:48] CK Lin: I think that's the, the true test. I mean, it's easy to talk about love and wisdom and truth when you are in the four seasons and there's [00:11:00] people waiting on you and everything is comfortable, but the real test of kindness is when you don't necessarily have to.

Right. And when you have all the quote, unquote right. Reasons to be angry and all those things, and you have a lot of agreement from people around you, right. Hey, that was right for you to be angry, but you still have the, um, the discern. To bring that inner peace and back to bring that forgiveness back. So I think that's, you know, hence that story was such a beautiful illustration of what could be.

[00:11:36] Ramsay Taum: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I, I did get many comments from friends and associates and even some strangers, um, which may not be strange at all. If we consider the idea, we're all connected. And I had a, um, clerk in one of our grocery stores, stop me, uh, as I was [00:12:00] processing my, my order and she thanked me because she had seen the sharing on one of my posts.

Cause she proceeded to tell me that she even essentially, um, duplicated the process by putting her name in there and. The members that she needed to deal with in their case. And she said that it really led to, um, a lot of internal peace, something that she'd been looking for in this particular situation, uh, for some considerable time.

And so just that exercise. So if anything, it demonstrates, we never know where , where, you know, our efforts will plant seeds and then ultimately grow

[00:12:44] CK Lin: nutrition group. So on that note, let me ask you a quick question. Sure. Cause you're invited as a wisdom teacher and elder that holds the Hawaiian cultural values and, and wisdom.

I'm curious from your [00:13:00] perspective, what makes a wisdom teacher and what makes an elder and are they distinct?

[00:13:06] Ramsay Taum: No, I appreciate that. I, I, I think they are, um, like a glass can hold many liquids, you know, mm-hmm, . The liquids don't define the glass. Right? So I, I think that's similar here. Um, I I'd like to state that.

I think these things that you're talking about have really been, um, imposed or imparted upon me by others. So I don't necessarily consider myself a wisdom keeper. I'm just me. Um, but in talking with people and others, uh, they find that what I have to say or offer is in their definition, wisdom and the same term kumu, for instance, it's a title given to me by my instructors when they believed it was [00:14:00] time for me to move forward.

It is also a title given to me by my students. Um, presuming they're learning anything. The term Kumo really refers to resource. Mm. Um, and I think you and I may have chatted about this, but in my estimation, it's like being the pond and not the spring. Mm. Right. Uh, to receive what is being gifted, uh, maintaining it and holding it for others to draw from.

So in much, uh, in many ways like a, um, watering hole where all the animals come to drink, the pond doesn't determine who drinks or what they drink or where they go with. Once they've drink it. That's kind of how I feel in many ways. Um, my role or my responsibilities are I happen to [00:15:00] be a holding pond for some wisdom and information that was poured into me by these elders before me.

From the standpoint of being an elder, an extension of other elders could be one definition. I represent them now as they have gifted me and said, go on and share this as I will do with others. Um, as a way of passing on the traditions, uh, the knowledge and the wisdom.

As far as wisdom is concerned. Um, I think we're living in a time where we're pursuing knowledge.

There's all kinds of knowledge, all many different ways of knowing, but the pursuit of knowledge may be moving far too quickly in the absence of including wisdom, wisdom, being that, uh, experience the actual application of whatever [00:16:00] that knowledge might be. So I think you can say I know something, but if you've never really done it, do you really know it?

once you've applied it and you can repeat it as well as convey that to others in a meaningful way. Then I believe that begins to bubble up into what we might call the wisdom. Hmm. So in my case, I think that there's been a lot of experience, which then lends to expertise, uh, to be able to do, as you said, just in that story, apply knowledge in a way that demonstrates wisdom, how to apply what it is.

We know in a way that then helps others to do the same.

As far as elders are concerned in Hawaiian custom, the term Kuna it's usually refused to refer to someone, [00:17:00] um, a grandparent in a linear familial way. Someone that is older. and that doesn't necessarily mean just someone that's in your nuclear family by blood.

So anyone, my elder older than I am by age could be considered Kauna. The definition of Kauna broken down in Hawaiian is, uh, resource. The human resource. Puna is a name for resource KU is the name for men that, which stands Kuna then is the resource or the origins of men, which are our grandparents and our ancestors.

So kupuna our ancestors, therefore our elders that came before us now what's important is your question is whether or not all Kuna are wisdom keepers or are all wisdom keepers, Kuna. I think we know by our experience that there are those that have [00:18:00] reached an age. That may qualify them as Kuna and elder, but some of us have not matured regardless of our linear age, chronological age, to really earn the status of Kuna or wisdom keeper.

And so many of us, despite our age, uh, still retain adolescent practices while others have gotten to know a place of maturity that is tolerant of those practices, um, but much more willing to share their wisdom. And so I've had the good fortune of being mentored by many of those individuals who are both Kuna, uh, and were Kuna in both respects, both in maturity, but also keepers of wisdom.[00:19:00]

They found it, uh, appropriate to share what they had with me. And so to that extent, I, I believe I'm an extension of them in as much as I'm creating my own space as a result of that. Yeah. Sorry. Long winded answer to a short question.

[00:19:19] CK Lin: No, I, I would call it comprehensive. Yes. It was a very comprehensive I, which I appreciate another indicator of, um, how much of your teacher, right?

Because in my mind, what is a wisdom teach? I, I love the way you said it. Um, you have the knowledge, you have the experience and your ability to translate that to someone who may not have had the experience. I think the three is very important and I just love the way that you tell stories and you're able to weave multiple topics.

And drop jams. Like it's nothing oh, I appreciate a great

[00:19:58] Ramsay Taum: skill. It's one of the reasons it's one of the [00:20:00] reasons why my, my consulting firm was named life enhancement Institute of Pacific, uh, the acronym L E I, uh, refers to lay like the ones I'm wearing mm-hmm and the lay in many respects is a physical demonstration of synergy of taking things that may not appear to become and putting them on a comment background.

In my case, they happen to become in shes, but where with our floral arrangements, you could have flowers or things that don't look like they fit, but when you put them on the right backing, they become much more than the sum of their parts. So that too is a metaphor, an analogy of what I think, um, I'm aspiring to do.

Which is to take things that don't seem to fit, put them on a common background, so that regardless of [00:21:00] where one is coming from, background, experience, knowledge, et cetera, that they can benefit from experiencing that. So I get to speak in many different places, different venues, different silos, if you would, um, and manage to somehow convey information that regardless of whether you're a doctor, an engineer, a truck driver, what have you that if you're in that same space, you'll walk away with something of value.

Um, and most times I just relying on spirit to guide that , it's not, it's not a mechanical thing. It's just kind of getting out of the way.

[00:21:41] CK Lin: So, okay. So someone who. who is a teacher as well, right? Cause it's Nobel warrior. My job is to to excavate, to curate wisdom and wisdom teachers. And I love what you just said, right.

To listen to the room, listen to what the room needs and [00:22:00] allow spirit or the inner guidance to share that whatever that may be sort of a, a side conversation. So if you can concretize that skill, that would be amazing for other aspiring wisdom teachers.

[00:22:15] Ramsay Taum: Yeah. I guess the best way to say is get out of the way.

Listen, um, we're essential beings and are responding to our senses of physical senses, sight, touch, smell, sound, all those, but the other senses. The more esoteric, deeper ones. The ones we aren't physically attuned to, I believe are those that I'm referring to some would call a 6 cent 7 cent it's spirit. Um, and it's being moved by and listening.

And rather than being more [00:23:00] interested in what you have to say and much more conscious of what needs to be heard as you listen. Right? Uh, my daughter who I'm spending some time with this week, uh, when she comes to class, my, my Lu martial arts class often she'd ask, uh, so dad, what are we gonna learn tonight?

Actually more appropriate? She said, what are you gonna teach tonight? and my response is usually well, um, I'm not sure yet. We'll see when we get there. And in the process of doing warmups and preparing for the class, I'll notice one or two individuals who may be doing something inappropriately or incorrectly.

And it is at that instant, that moment that the class then revealed itself. So the students having difficulty now becomes the teacher drawing from the [00:24:00] old adage. When the teacher is ready, the student appears and vice versa. When the student is ready, the teacher appears that's a demonstration of being aware, being sensitive to the opportunity in that particular case, the student who is executing a movement incorrectly has the opportunity to learn the correct procedure and in the process of conveying and sharing that with them, then the others around him or her will learn as well.

If anything, how to diagnose the problem. Then how to correct it. And in the process of doing that, then get their own exercise and their own reinforcement. Um, had I come into that class with a particular message, I could have shared that, but that particular student who was already one step behind would be even further [00:25:00] behind mm-hmm right.

And so while there would be several of them who would fall in line and benefit the group at large would not. And so it's also, I think being conscious of the whole and not just the parts. Right. Mm. Recognizing the hole is made up of parts. And if all the parts aren't working together, then you might find a hole in the hole.

Right. Mm. And so we have to fill the gaps.

[00:25:37] CK Lin: I want, I wanna tie it to the theme of noble warrior. Yeah. By helping people get on the journey of finding a deeper purpose, a deeper joy and deeper effectiveness as well. And I think that there's parallel tracks mm-hmm is purpose for me is serving purpose [00:26:00] is serving something that's greater than self.

Yes. And I think a lot of times the beginning part of searching is what is my purpose grasping the, you know, within versus listening for what the outer needs and wants. And if I'm hearing you right, it's to keep the 7 sense open six sense open and then listen for what's around you and how can you serve them and how do at the same time.

Stay in that sense of joy. So you, and then it's through the iteration of that then you, whoever's listening would, would see that, um, that path, yes. Higher purpose. What's your take on that?

[00:26:46] Ramsay Taum: I think we're all in different places and we have different opportunities to experience what we're talking about.

Mm-hmm , um, an example would be, and again, this is an example of a law, the, the [00:27:00] spiritual application, the operationalization of spirit, if you would, is when you visit a family, a friend, or even a stranger that you've taken the time to know enough about them and not just bringing yourself. To say hi, I'm here.

Right? Enjoy me. yeah, the pleasure's all yours. that's great. So it's actually going to someone and bringing a, a dish of food. For instance, if you bring the food you eat that presumes that they eat it too, but you're still thinking about yourself, but to go into a home and know that a particular family, uh, maybe lactose intolerant, that you're gonna bring food or sustenance, that's good for them.

And not just because it's good for you. That's [00:28:00] showing an awareness. So the metaphor here, of course, whatever you're sharing is food for the mine, the spirit. And so regardless of whether or not it's nutritious for me, it needs to be nutritious for those. I'm sharing it with. if it causes them illness, this disease disorder disruption, then really it served no purpose, not even my own at that point.

Right. And the joy at that point in time is seeing and knowing that when you've contributed to someone else's wellbeing and in doing so contribute to your own, if, if for another reason you've now made another friend and hopefully eliminated a potential enemy, right? Mm. So you're building community in that way and not just building self.

And I believe this draws from the law of expansion, you know, as you expand others. So do you expand? Mm. But it requires you to [00:29:00] expand your awareness, expand your, your reach by expanding your sensitivities to the wellbeings of others. And this goes back to, or brings forward. Um, and attitude of we rather.

me. And I think as facilitators teachers, uh, healers, or revealers, that's a big part of the characteristics of being and living those responsibilities.

[00:29:36] CK Lin: I'm curious cuz as a, as a teacher, part of the role is to, um, elevate the prominence of the brand, the teaching, right?

The person, the human. and, but also at the same time, the teaching isn't about the human being. We're, we're merely the vessels, right? The, you know, conduits, this is fluent this, so how do you reconcile? the [00:30:00] importance of branding, right? So, so, so, so, uh, kumu Ramsey is a brand and people come to you for, so then you can serve 'em better at the same time.

Mm-hmm, , it's also not about the personality as well, you know what I mean? So how do you reconcile the importance of

[00:30:17] Ramsay Taum: both? Well, I, I have to admit CK. I'm probably still learning that myself, um, because I really haven't focused on branding and maybe that's my brand. , you know, a brand of no brand.

exactly. I'm Brandless. That's the brand mm-hmm um, because as I've told others, I don't go where I'm not invited. And that's why I thanked you for inviting me here today. I probably wouldn't have sought you out. I say, Hey, I want to be on your show. Mm-hmm , that's not what I do. My underlying attitude is that, uh, when dealing with [00:31:00] native communities in particular, it's by invasion or invitation, the last thing I wanna do is invade someone else's space that said, I recognize that each of us, regardless of where we are in our lives or the world probably has something to offer someone else.

We've all been provided gifts. So to not offer, to share those gifts is, uh, selfish in one respect. And I'm not saying bad or good, it's just selfish. You're just really thinking about self at that point in time. Mm-hmm , but in as much as the other way around is if you're just thinking about self and promoting self for the sake of promoting self.

regardless of what people are getting, then I'm not sure there's balance in that either. Right. But I think about maintaining one's authenticity and being present and being willing and which I ask the cosmos and share it, it says [00:32:00] I'm available, you know, and my availability, uh, then produces invitations.

So that's the Brandless brand for me. And I probably have never put those two words together before until now. But, uh, because I haven't focused on the business of being a teacher. Mm. Or, or a facilitator. Yes. A lot of people contact me. I, I go to all kinds of facilitations and trainings. Um, and perhaps if there's a weakness in my brand or my practice it's that I'm not a promoter.

If anything, others have helped to promote me. And not me promote myself. I'm not comfortable in that space because I don't think it's about me. It is about the content. So I, I haven't, I haven't really spent enough time or resources in [00:33:00] self-promotion.

[00:33:02] CK Lin: I mean, if you think about some of the world's top wisdom teachers of all time, right?

The Buddhas, the Jesus, the, you know, whoever that, you know, that you think about, I can't fathom how they promote themselves. it's yeah. It's the, the, the potency comes from their words and also their embodiment. Right. So it's not just words. Right. But like how they live their life, how they, you know, treat other people from the micro moment.

You know, if let's say, if we transpose them to 20, 22 today, I can't imagine them be like, You know, look at my name and put it their name on a, you know, building or something that would be weird. Right,

[00:33:45] Ramsay Taum: right. Yeah. And it, it seems like all the interpreters, the salesmen are really the one that are doing the promoting, right.

The salesmen of the particular brand or, or product they're selling themselves to sell the product. Whereas [00:34:00] individuals, like you're saying they were the product, they were it. Right. Yeah. I I'd be really interested to see the marketing team behind Jesus .

[00:34:11] CK Lin: I mean, he did have 12 disciples who yeah. Right.

Great stories and narratives about the man or, and the being the person. Right. So yeah.

[00:34:20] Ramsay Taum: You think about that. That was an after effect, right? It wasn't like, yeah. I'm, goingly let him know I'm coming. Right.

kinda like, oh, he was in gal last week. Wait till you see the next line. What does that think? Right. Oh, we heard about. Right. And so that's word of mouth, but I mean today with, you know, all the capacity we have today, we can do that. But yeah. Nice observation.

[00:34:46] CK Lin: Um, yeah. Uh, I, I was just curious more, more than anything else.

Cause because in my mind, I think where I grapple with as a, I, my job is to help mm-hmm and [00:35:00] facilitate the wisdom teachers that I see that I, that I, that I appreciate mm-hmm so then they tell their wisdom and stories and narrative more so more people can be awaken, more people can live a healthier and thriving life.

More people can find their purpose and find deep joy regardless of what's going on in their circumstances. Yeah. I believe that's my darn path. So

[00:35:25] Ramsay Taum: it's something that I similar similarly, I think that's kind of where I am in terms of the information, uh, that has been shared with me. Um, it's not for everybody.

So, consequently, I'm not gonna deliver pizza so people don't eat pizza. so great metaphor at, at some point, you know, if, if you want it here, it is. Um, but not so arrogant to think that I'm the only source of it and that you're not gonna learn it unless you talk to me, which I think I've seen others do. Um, I think [00:36:00] all of us are tapped into the grand source of wisdom, knowledge information, and it comes through when it's ne necessary and needed.

Consequently, that may be in the moment in as much as it may be in the future, but the ability to access it is probably more important,

[00:36:19] CK Lin: right? The ability to access

[00:36:21] Ramsay Taum: those person, access, whatever wisdom information is necessary. So when you're in the moment, you may not never have experienced that particular thing in the past, but you're able to draw upon.

The universal guidance. Mm-hmm because you have a way of plugging into it or accessing it in the same way that a fish is in the ocean. It doesn't create the water around it, but it sure has access to the oxygen in it. Mm-hmm I think manna, uh, life energy is like that. And I think knowledge, uh, is the same and wisdom is that at the right appropriate time and the appropriate [00:37:00] mindset, we all have access.

Uh it's just whether or not we know what to do with it or how to, how to apply it. Uh, so I know a lot of people can, can open a jar, but they don't know what to do with the contents.

[00:37:14] CK Lin: So on that note, , uh, couple of, yeah, I want to double click on that. Um, I believe that wisdoms all around us opportunities are around us abundances all around us.

the key is whether or not we could see it. That's one and two, whether or not we can internalize it. That's two. Right. So what kind of practices have you, uh, discover in your own journey of many decades to one be able to discern mm-hmm right. To have that discernment and awareness and also to, to then internalize it better.

[00:37:53] Ramsay Taum: Good question. Um, I, I would pick up on the idea that we all have access more importantly, we're all caring. We're all [00:38:00] knowing wisdom keepers to a certain degree. Mm-hmm um, I think part of it is knowing what you don't know or more importantly, knowing that there are things you don't know yet, right? Mm-hmm and that's being the term lifelong learner, but it's also requires a sense of humility that some of us who choose this path, uh, haven't learned yet.

Um, because what we're just talking about is that if there's a term for it, it's humility. Uh, and that means that you're not thinking about yourself, uh, or less about yourself. Just thinking about yourself less often, right? Mm-hmm as thing going, because you're, you're paying attention to what others have.

And if you know where your blind spots are, if you know what you is, you don't know to [00:39:00] be aware when you're in the presence of someone who has that right now, oftentimes they may not know they have it. So in the exchange it's revealed for both of you, they reveal their information and knowledge because of the questions we pose to them, right?

Knowing that we have a need or desire an opportunity. to fill in that gap and that that's when a relationship occurs. Right? Mm. The other part of it is recognizing you don't need to know all, you don't need to know it all. You don't need to be the, the Costco of knowledge.

[00:39:43] CK Lin: the Costco of

[00:39:44] Ramsay Taum: knowledge, right?

The whole failure of knowledge and wisdom. Right. And only keep what's in stock that people want. Right. Yeah. Which is their practice. Right. If they buy it, we'll keep it in stock. If they don't get rid of it. Um, that's kind of [00:40:00] how I'm seeing a lot of people entering this space. They wanna be the, the wisdom keepers of all things.

Mm it's. Different than having access to the library of all things. When you have the library card, you can go in and search, right. Mm-hmm uh, the librarian doesn't know all information. He or she just happens to have access. Whether they read every book in the library. Now that's another story. And, and, and this is inspired by, um, queen Le LAN our last queen or the queen who was deposed or were thrown in 1893.

Her statement to everyone about OA was, um, this spirit of law is to see without looking in one and I'm paraphrasing and to feel without touching. And more importantly to know the unknowable. [00:41:00] Now, some might translate that last name is says. So does that make you know-it-all? right. No, not at all. If anything, the concept of, to know the unknowable really suggests if you know the source of all things in this case, God, the creative forces, the librarian.

If you have access to that, you have the library card, then anything that you require or need you can now access. Mm. And so I think the discernment is to one, recognize that as many gifts that we may have, we don't have all gifts. And I think the gift of discernment is one of them, right? Mm.

Not everyone operates from discernment. Some of us have gone beyond discernment to being discriminatory, right. Mm. Or prejudicial, which is rooted [00:42:00] in discernment, but perhaps moved to a much greater state. Right. I'm no longer discerning between a, uh, ripe apple and a rotten one. I'm just choosing to think that all apples are rotten. That's when I think discernment and moves into being prejudicial.

Or discriminatory. Uh, so I think that's an important concept that one needs to be aware of. So if there's a short answer, it's, self-awareness learn being more aware of one's self, both gifts, strengths, weaknesses, and opportunities to,

[00:42:44] CK Lin: to so double, so double click on that. Right. Cuz I don't wanna just lead people with develop more self-awareness cuz that's great advice.

But tactically speaking, what kind of practice could you share with them such that they let's [00:43:00] say journal or whatever the practice may be. So then they can be inspired by you, but also go try it. Some of these modalities.

[00:43:08] Ramsay Taum: Yeah. So, you know, there are so many different ways and we call them meditation and, and study and listening those kinds of things.

I think a lot of that is important. Um, But a big part of it is recognizing what we call ACA, AKA ACA, which in Hawaiian is a reference to mirror shadow. Uh, so the shadow to follow someone whose wisdom or knowledge is inspiring to you, right. To be in their presence and learn through observation listening participation.

The other is to mirror, right? Not mimic that's different, but mirror, uh, to find and recognize that those that we've we find sitting in [00:44:00] front of us, or we sitting in front of them somehow are mirrors to one another. Yeah. To the point that the things that annoy us about ourselves can often be brought out by someone sitting in front of us.

I don't like what he did, but really they just demonstrated what you don't like about yourself. Mm-hmm . And so understanding that perspective, um, and the exercise of being open and aware of that every time you sit in front of someone or you're triggered by something someone says or does, is that before you start judging the activity, begin to scan your response.

Now that's not being self-centered, that's being centered itself. Acknowledging that the guy next to me wasn't triggered by that, by that comment I was mm-hmm . So the question that I would ask myself at that point is what is it about me that allowed me to be triggered by that, [00:45:00] that caused me to behave the way I'm behaving now, because I brought that to the room, right?

This person that's outside of me is like that, regardless of whether I'm in the room or not, right. Other people have found. Comfort in his or her conversation. And yet I'm annoyed by it. What, what is that? What did I bring? What was in me that got annoyed by that? And I think that's a, an important question that reveals these other things.

So what is it about me that I can then let go refined, refine, right. Improve upon then allows me then not to be triggered in that way, especially if it's a negative trigger mm-hmm so I think that's an exercise. And I think if people become more aware of that and, uh, challenge themselves to go to that place now that's not to put fault or blame on oneself either.

Mm-hmm, clarify that mm-hmm , mm-hmm in other, it's not, why am I such a [00:46:00] bad person? Cuz there are people that go down that path, you know, I'm not worthy that type of thing. It's not about worthiness. It really has more to do with, um, Your grandmother packed the bag for you. And she packed the bag for the terrain that she was most accustomed.

Once you leave that terrain, you have to be confident enough to say, thank you, grandmother, that calf Dan, or that blanket you gave me was wonderful when it was cold, but now I'm in the desert and I need to Dawn something else. So be grateful. So gratitude is part of that exercise being grateful for what it is we have, but also finding gratitude for the opportunity to seek something different, uh, in the right time.

So these are attitudes [00:47:00] as much as their attitudes. Yeah. That I think each of us can begin to subscribe to.

[00:47:06] CK Lin: I love it. Uh, I'm reminded of, uh, Mental, uh, exercise that I was taught once. Uh, imagine someone who comes up to you and say, Hey, I really dislike your blue hair. I really hate it. And obviously you don't have blue hair, so it's like, oh, okay.

He just like Teflon right water off ducks back. So to speak, cuz it's like, it's not me, but if you're trigger by, you're too tall, too short, too big, too small, whatever the comment to you. Yes. There's a part of you that believe that that's why it was trigger. So what, what you said is perfect. Like what's within me, that has me being triggered by this and what an opportunity, what a teacher this moment is to myself.

So let me think about it and [00:48:00] look at it and also do it in the sense of gratitude. Also do it in the sense of, um, from the place of being a, a objective observer, a scientist, looking at this rather than. I'm a good person. I'm a bad person this way or that way. So yeah, if I

[00:48:15] Ramsay Taum: may see case, I think there's, there's also, uh, I think the difference between assessment and judgment mm-hmm and I think if we live in judgment all the time, whether we're judging others, usually if we're doing that, we're probably thinking others are judging us.

Mm. So when you release the judgment, but apply assessment, all of a sudden that think that begins to shift. So I'm less concerned about what others are saying, uh, as judgments, but it's indicators of improvement. Mm-hmm , uh, or an indicator that I've now left the road, and I'm about to crash into a [00:49:00] tree.

Right? You could ignore the signs to your folly. So sometimes you have to say, if enough people are saying something. Then maybe I should pay attention to it. Um, but if it's a one off, well, maybe it's not something you need to worry about. But take note of that. I think the greatest opportunity for us is to consider the idea that we not be driven by externalities alone, I think is important to scan and know your environment.

But if you're, if your life is being guided by externalities, including the thoughts of others opinions, then to a, to a certain extent, you're setting yourself up for victimhood them hood. If you're reliance, if our reliance on others to feel good about us enables us to feel good about us. [00:50:00] I'm doomed when they leave the room and I have no one to feel good about me.

right. And so at some point there needs to be an internal compass that allows us to navigate the world regardless of what maps we may find or what terrains we find ourselves in.

[00:50:18] CK Lin: So on that note real quick, quick interject. Yeah, go

[00:50:21] Ramsay Taum: ahead.

[00:50:23] CK Lin: In one of your Ted talks, you said, instead of thinking about, I think, therefore I am think I belong.

Therefore I am right. Mm-hmm I love that message. Mm-hmm it seems a little paradoxical in what you just said as well, because I belong. Therefore, I am part of being, uh, it's very primal for human beings who want to belong to, you know, a group that's how we survive or two, you know, 250,000 years mm-hmm and it's, it's a core fear that we have to be ostracized to not belong.

So at the [00:51:00] same time, we want to be comfortable with oneself, not needing someone's external approval and validation. So could you say a little bit more about how do you reconcile be okay with oneself and at the same time, you know, I belong there far. I am and so

[00:51:16] Ramsay Taum: forth, please. Yeah. Well, um, belonging is a huge part.

I agree. I think many of us, I think the world today is in, uh, pursuit of that sense of belonging to be a part of a membership to a certain degree. And in most membership there's criteria for membership. And I like to suggest one of those memberships and for a community, like the one I come from is being aware of the needs of others and not just your own.

So to the sense that I know myself. it's relative to the person next to me or the tree next to me or the animals next to me. It's not [00:52:00] just me. I'm part of a whole, but as a result of being part of that hole, I need to know what I'm either contributing or taking away from that whole. And that's why I need to know enough about myself.

Be comfortable with what I have, uh, to be a part and contribute a contributor, not a detracted from that whole mm-hmm mm-hmm . So I belong to this tribe, this group, this concept, this principle, because I subscribe to and exercise the things that allow us to be in community. Um, the indicators of community that tell me I'm no longer in community, you need to know what those are, right?

And so if you belong, you'll learn that if you don't belong, you may be running a foul of all the. Accepted practices.

[00:52:55] CK Lin: Wait, wait Z up one sentence one more time.

[00:52:57] Ramsay Taum: Yeah. If, if you're running, [00:53:00] if, if you're not aware of what those practices are, and you're just operating off of what I want, what I need to do, you could find yourself outside of the community, despite your perception of being in it, because you're now in opposition or out of sync with the community practices, right.

Or belief systems. So whatever you belong to, or your sense of belonging once you're there being is the next part. How do you be in community now that you have a sense of belonging there and being requires an awareness, a discernment again? So the, these concepts we're talking about, aren't independent of one another they're interdependent and oftentimes.

We look, people are looking for singularities well, he said belonging, and then he said this, there it's all encompassing. [00:54:00] Right? And it's a matter of order relation structure, not as singularity. Life is dynamic as we are. If you try to stand still, and this is nothing against my friend in the monastery, but to your point earlier, it's great.

When you're sitting in the monastery and all the wars going on outside the walls to find peace. But can you find that same peace in a room where there's war? Uh, that's that's a different thing. So it needs to be inclusive at some point in time.

[00:54:42] CK Lin: Yeah. One of the realization that I had is at some point, I thought about.

you know, wouldn't it be great to live a monastic lifestyle? And I realized it's actually harder to be a householder cuz we're in the world where we're, [00:55:00] we're we're of the world. We're not above the world. So, so to me, what a, what a, what an opportunity to really practice all of these teachings and wisdom that we learned from books.

Yeah.

[00:55:12] Ramsay Taum: As a householder. Yeah. Well I think we all just kind of experience a monastic experience the last two years. Mm-hmm we all got to sit in our homes and communicate with the rest of the world through mediums like this. So I'm not sitting on a mountain, but I'm in an ocean. right. Mm-hmm and I have to leave my ocean sometimes, uh, if anything, to learn more, but also to share.

And so the internet. zoom and all the various technologies have allowed us basically to stay in our little monasteries, but at the same time, get outside and experience the world. So we're in an interesting time. Um, [00:56:00] but it's all perspective, right? It's all point of view.

[00:56:04] CK Lin: So I have a curious question, and this is I'm a technologist and, uh, formerly trained PhD, biomedical engineering, uh, you know, academic research mm-hmm

So I'm very much came from the world of cutting edge. Tech is the best that was in my twenties. And then I came to realize the folly using your words of that way of thinking, oh, there is value in lineage tradition, wisdom. So I'm coming back to to, to appreciate lineage tradition, but I also see. there needs to be a harmony in the middle, right.

Because there's harmony in the middle there's there's pros of cutting edge technologies. There's pros of lineage tradition, wisdom as a teacher, as someone who is a modern householder, [00:57:00] how do you reconcile the polarities of these, uh, these poles.

[00:57:06] Ramsay Taum: That is a great, good question. I think the operating word you use is harmony, you know, and what does that feel like? What does that look like? And I think it's in pursuit of that, compared to what the question would be peace in and of itself or balance those two things we define in different ways. But I think what really defines peace and balance is harmony.

When things are in proper balance, there is harmony when things are in peace, when there is peace, true peace there's harmony. Um, but I could be in, like you said, in the monetarnastery experiencing peace, but outside there's war, I don't think that's [00:58:00] harmony. Things are not harmonious at that point. So my inner sense, as well as the external world experience outside, if I am walk, if I am finding a sense of calm and I walk outside and there's calm there's resonance, mm-hmm

But if I walk outside in my calm, while people are throwing stones at one another, and I continue walking in my calm right. That's ignore. That's ignoring. Mm, the first would've been ignorance. I don't know they're going nuts outside. I'm just being calm inside. But when I go outside and I expl, I see this disharmony, but choose to be in my own harmony and walk by it, not do anything about that, that may just be ignoring.

And I think there's a difference. I don't think you ignore. [00:59:00] I could choose to say, I'm gonna stay in my harmony. I'm gonna stay in my peace and let you guys fight it out. That's a choice. Right. But I, I live my choices. Are, is there things that I can do then to contribute to that harmony? What is it? I go back to the early question.

What is it that I've contributed consciously or unconsciously that is creating that discontent? Despite the fact that I'm feeling my own heart, my own peace right now, because I'm witnessing that. I'm seeing that I'm aware of it. Therefore I must be part of it. Otherwise it wouldn't be in my awareness.

Here's a good example or an example how good it is. That's further to determine I, I work with a number of people who are in conservation work. Mm-hmm and interesting enough, I was in a meeting where they're talking about, we need to save the forest [01:00:00] because every time we go to the forest, we're robbing the Gibbons, the Oranga tanks of their home, because the minerals that are in the soil there is helping us to create these things called cell phones.

Mm-hmm . We have to stop that. Save the GI. and my question is, so how do we plan to do that? We're gonna send out emails and we're gonna do an internet campaign and we do this. And so how do you reach plan to reach everyone? Well, we'll get on our cell phones and send out emails.

I'll make some calls on myself. Oh, you mean the thing that's causing the Gibbons and the first you gonna use your cell phone? It makes a lot of sense to me, right? It it's those kinds of things that we, sometimes we get so deep into what it is. We think we're doing that. We completely miss all the signs that we are part of the problem and not just the solution.

I think that's a level of discernment. [01:01:00] That's where harmony begins to you. See if I'm relying on the very technology to end the use of the technology, or at least the extractive practices that fit into this technology. How do I do that? And if I can't do it, if I'm not aware. right. And so for me, that's a big part of it is really acknowledging what is my contribution, how I'm I contributing to the problem as well as to the solution.

And that's where balance starts to happen. Right? It's a balanced view of things. And if I'm looking for peace for the Gibbons and their tanks, that their piece is my piece. When I know that they're sleeping well in the tree that has not been uprooted for the soil underneath it, for my cell phone, then I have found harmony.

[01:01:56] CK Lin: Right? Yeah. What, what I'm hearing you [01:02:00] say is, well, first know your own terms, what what's okay with you. What's not okay with you yourself before you venture out to impose, um, such value onto others by advocating for the solution of cell phones versus the preservation of the rainforest.

That's what I'm getting.

[01:02:25] Ramsay Taum: Yes. Um, because if we take the truth, the definition of harmony, uh, it's not one note and I'll draw from the musical experience. Mm-hmm , you know, if you look at the music, the spaces, the notes of FAC and E learn that well as a kid face at face value, those notes are different notes.

One is an F one is an a, but [01:03:00] played in proper order, or maybe at the same time to get a chord to be in a chord is harmony. But to play the notes at the wrong time or to play the flats, maybe not so harmonious, but they're all in the same place. They're all in the same measure, right. To be a good musician.

However, to figuring out that harmony one must know what order there is, what sequence must timing. And sometimes when to be quiet, right? Silence is quiet is, is music too. And so it's, I think that's all part of it. It's not one note. Life is not one note and I may be the carrier one note. And when I find those others with the notes that we can begin to create music together, then so be it.

But it's acknowledging that I'm not the one [01:04:00] carrying the single note. Mm. There are others out there as well.

[01:04:05] CK Lin: I, I appreciate your saying. Um, Using the musical, uh, metaphors, because for me, I like harmony, but then I also realize there is a time and a place for dissonance, you know, that's particular, you know, serves a particular jarring experience for some, like, for example, when I sit in, let's say the should people style of Ika, they play a lot of dissonant notes.

Right. And it serves a particular function. I was like, oh, interesting. So, um, you want to, yeah, go ahead.

[01:04:41] Ramsay Taum: No, no. I mean, uh, I think that's when learning happens at which that's when change happens. Right. Uh, as I look at the image behind me, uh, a calm ocean is great on the surface, but there's a lot of activity going underneath it.

Mm-hmm and one of the [01:05:00] places that is difficult to be in, but probably the most exciting is where the waves meet the land. Right. Where the sea meets the land that churning all that activity, uh, as disconcerting as it may be for someone being tumbled around in the shore break, it can lead to a better future.

If you learn how to swim right. Or how to get past, get past it either, or just stay out of the water. Right. But it's that dissonant that place there, where everything's happening. That's when you come to a decision, do I get in or do I stay out right. Yeah. But you don't know that you just, I'm gonna try walking on water today.

Right? So, um, again, it's all part of it. Everything has a part of the whole, and I think we need to respect that, that, uh, as one elder told me, [01:06:00] the light breeze that you feel on your face is part of the hurricane. That's out at sea. Mm, it happens to be where you're located. Mm. You know, and recognizing that, can you place yourself in the cool breeze or in the center of a hurricane that might be a choice.

Right.

[01:06:22] CK Lin: So on that note, uh, you reminded me of the time I was at Sandy beach, you know, I thought I could hang with the bigger waves I brought my board and I was being toss about in the short breaks and I learned, I learned, all right, my swimming skills is not strong enough. I better keep out of the water if I wanna stay alive.

So,

[01:06:46] Ramsay Taum: and you could have left that and thinking that, yeah, I, I can do it. Right. But until you get tossed around, then you begin to, well, maybe I, I have something more to learn, so, yeah,

[01:06:56] CK Lin: I agree. So on that note, you [01:07:00] consider yourself a community builder, a social engineer, Right. You put yourself consciously in a position of, shall we say friction, conflicts, disagreement, you know, as a way to bring reconciliation and then, you know, trying to find the solution that would bring harmony to everyone there.

Could you tell us a little bit about why you wanna do that? You know, cause one may say it's not a most comfortable place, right? Yeah. Being the shore breaks, being the eye of the hurricane. You, but you run towards that. So tell, tell us a little bit more about the

[01:07:38] Ramsay Taum: yeah. Those choices. Well, I think for clarity purposes, you know, I, I'm not looking for these things.

Right. Okay. I don't go around saying, show me a car accident. that's about to happen. Let me get between those two cars. That, that that's the last thing I wanna do. [01:08:00] most times people are contacting me after the accident happened. Right. Mm-hmm uh, cuz now they're trying to get through the wreck. That's very different than trying to mediate two people from getting in a collision.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't go where I'm not invited. So what happens is people recognize that I have a skill set or at least it's a demeanor that helps them come to terms with their and as a third party, uh, not having any dog in the fight, if you would, right? I'm not there to prove one person right or wrong, but to find that space where they all work.

Um, and for me, like you said earlier, harmony is a preferred place. So wherever I can go and if I can be in harmony in that place, I'd like there to be harmony. And if people are seeking that out, that's what I'm looking for as well. So the higher order is harmony, not [01:09:00] fixing problems. Higher order is creating a condition where these, these conflicts don't exist.

So I'm not looking at fixing conflict. Right? What I'm hoping to do is create a condition where conflicts no longer required to achieve what those two people are trying to achieve, which seems to be harmony or peace. Right. Um, I think we can fix problems and never eliminate the source of the problem, which means the problem's gonna happen again.

Right. So that's, that's kind of the, the guidance and direction that I, I take. Um, it's the old attitude. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight, right? So I'm, I'm not looking at getting into fights. Maybe there is a story. And that that story I could share is, um, about two tribes. [01:10:00] There's a tribe of chairs and the tribe of tables.

The chair of tribe has been trying to get tables, to become chairs. While the tables have been trying to get the chairs to become tables. It's been an ongoing feud between the chairs and the tables. And then one day somebody came in and says, I'm gonna throw a party. And they contact the tribe of chairs and the tribe of tables and invite them to the party.

And when coming together, the tables and chairs recognize that together they've enhanced the party. It's a network together that their identities were really clarified. They needed one another to make the party a party. So for me, anytime there's a dispute through a party

it's in the recognition that we all have our role. and at some time, if that's [01:11:00] all it is, my role is the role. We tend to miss the value and import that someone else can contribute to me, living up to my role in this case, the tables gave meaning for the chairs in as much as the chairs gives meaning to the table.

Um, that's what I try to do. He said, what is the end in this case that said, you don't wanna force the end. If there isn't one, there mm-hmm . How can you be this while there that without requiring either view the change, but just respect the fact that there is a chair and there is a table, right? That we may not, we may not see eye eye on this, but I can respect the fact that you see the world the way you do.

unfortunately, if that means that you're gonna continue to attack me, then I'm gonna have to do something to protect [01:12:00] myself. And I think we find ourselves in some of those situations where we just have not been able to reconcile that greater space. And if there's ever a pursuit, it's that, how do we eventually find what that is?

Right? How do we create that space? Where you have enough? I have enough and more is less.

[01:12:27] CK Lin: You had talked about the importance of, let me actually see the exact quote that you said one second. Yes. Learning martial arts is a path to peace. A peace. It reminds me of a quote by Jordan Peterson's is a harmless man is not a good man.

A good man is a very dangerous man who has that under volunteering control. So interested.

[01:12:53] Ramsay Taum: Yeah. Say that again. Say that again for me,

[01:12:56] CK Lin: a harmless man is not a good man. A good man [01:13:00] is a very dangerous man who has that under volunteering control. Hmm. It's another way of saying, uh, it's better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war.

Right? So as someone who is a martial art practitioner, as someone who advocates, learning, martial arts is a pastor PE. Um, is there anything you want to say about that?

[01:13:27] Ramsay Taum: um,

the inner piece that is required to be a good martial artist? Uh, it's not easy to come by because the art itself, oftentimes their practice is inspired by doing harm to others. if it is focused on fighting alone, if there's a focus on protecting [01:14:00] then the skills that are using the intention is different.

The energy's different. I'm here to protect and not fight. Now somebody says, well, you're still slash his throat. right. But I'm slashing and he's attacking. I didn't go after him. I'm protecting the space I'm in. I have no intention to hurt anybody any more than a hamburger or a meat grinder intends to hurt any of meat.

It's just a meat grinder. It's just being what it is. If you don't want to be ground, don't stick your hand in the meat grinder. Right? Um, same as a, I think a martial artist I'm learning to protect. If you don't want to get hurt, don't enter the room with intention to hurt. This room is being protected by, you know, This practice.

So I think part of it is having enough peace within oneself and always being your own guardian. That's [01:15:00] the one thing I find most challenging is because, uh, when you achieve a level of, uh, experience and expertise like myself and others who have studied, trained and practiced, as long as we have, uh, you could argue for premeditation right.

You've done something a thousand times knowing and visualizing what you're doing. That's kind of premeditated. Uh, so when you exercise that, it just comes out. It's no thought at that point in time, you have to apply thought, is this the right time? Is this the right place? And you can't do that from a place of turmoil.

you have to go to a place of peace. You have to go to a clean place and, and logically work that through, which seems weird. You're operating in an illogical condition, relying [01:16:00] on logical, you know, approaches, it's a full economy, um, which , um, which I think we see in, in our laws today around self defense and those kinds of things, but 12 people have to agree that if they were in the same situation, they would logically have arrived at the same condition.

Mm. Or the condition was illogical. So how do you come to a logical answer in an illogical condition? And I'll be find 12 people to believe you or agree with you, right? Is, is there's just so many things that just seem in opposition to one another with that said martial arts is in many ways about taking those opposites a left or a right.

And combining them and finding peace in the middle, as we say, in the arts, uh, the push is to be pulled and to be pulled is to be pushed, be neutral. [01:17:00] Don't push don't, pull, just be, and is from that being that you can now respond versus react. So again, long story to your short question, but I think it's, that is how do you find that place of emptiness?

Because you have all this other stuff around you that you can draw from, but it's really about being empty at that point in time.

[01:17:26] CK Lin: Yeah. Uh, this is my perspective. I was am I don't know how to what's the tens , uh, practicing martial artist and, um, the beginning part of my martial art career, shall we say practice?

I was very much drawn by the adrenaline. Right. Mm-hmm, really excited, really fast and couldn't really control myself. Mm-hmm and over time it got a little better, right. I'm sure there's always more room for improvement, but it got a little better. I'm just not as [01:18:00] thrown out, uh, by, let's say a punch on my face or something like that.

Just like, oh, okay. I can breathe and let's keep going. Um, my perspective is this kind of exposure to adrenaline, to this primal energy, um, helps me lengthen this space between stimulants and response. Yes. So that I can not react with anger or, uh, yeah. In primal impulses rather it's let's think it through, what do I want to do move wise or, you know, for the purpose of the exercise.

So, so that that's. I can take that capacity, that spaciousness to other areas in my life as well. Let's say when I'm trigger, get it on, you know, someone who annoyed me or did something to me, I can at least breathe through, give myself some time before I choose what my action is gonna be. It's gonna be, [01:19:00]

[01:19:00] Ramsay Taum: yeah, well, you know, they have, um, it, it is one of those old statements of wisdom.

Grandmother's wisdom, if you would, right. Stop, count to 10, right? Take a breath. I think all of that contributes to that same creating time distance between the infraction and the response or the reaction. Right. And I think that's the funny part of it. Right? Duration and intensity. If a weight longer, it's a response.

If I react, if I respond quickly, it's a reaction. So how far away from a particular impact or incident does that become a response rather than a reaction, right? Mm, I think that's part of it. What you're saying, um, in the native world, there are [01:20:00] communities that had war, war, chiefs, and peace chiefs, and you would sit in the circle together, anytime, a decision to go to war or need to go to war or conflict came up.

So together, they would say, do we really want to go to war? What did you prefer? Peace. And sometimes the peace chiefs would have to say, in order for us to keep the peace, you're gonna have to go to war. Right? Mm. Because they know what that looks like, and that there will not be peace until we end this right.

And that may require us again to do, which is the fighting part in order to protect. Right. So it's not clean, it's not clear, but it's about having the ability to find balance harmony. Yeah.

[01:20:55] CK Lin: I'm curious about, because this is the noble warrior [01:21:00] podcast. And when you first got the invitation or first heard the phrase noble warrior, what goes through your mind?

What's your definition?

[01:21:09] Ramsay Taum: Well, that's interesting. Um, because I think I subscribe to that concept. Maybe not in those words. Mm-hmm um, again, for me, the warrior is one who protects mm-hmm while a soldier is one who fights mm-hmm and not to say that one is better than the other. I think there there's a soldier in every warrior, um, the noble warrior.

Is one who is holding these other things greater than himself or herself, right? To the extent that if one has to fall on his sword in order to maintain the peace, then that might be the action that has to be done to protect. Hmm. And let me be clear about that. [01:22:00] It it's the notion that if I have been assigned to a protection detail, and I discover that I am the target of someone else's anger, and if they start to attack me, I have to be noble enough and aware enough that I have now put my protectee at harm.

And to say there, Don, I have to stand here and protect this guy, this person, this thing, that's the higher order. And ignore the fact that I am now a target and therefore a threat to my protectee. I need to have the ability to step away and say that I can no longer protect you because I am myself, am my under attack.

Mm-hmm now that's different than he or sheeping attack. And me stepping in the way to redirect that attack to [01:23:00] protect them. I think that is what a noble warrior must address. That's just one example.

[01:23:11] CK Lin: That's beautiful. Thank you for that. Yeah. The reason why this, uh, podcast is called noble warrior for me, the warrior part is the willingness, the courage to lean into discomfort.

And the noble part is our higher self, right? For the sake in service of our higher self. And that's the reason why podcast is named noble warrior.

[01:23:34] Ramsay Taum: Well, I, I can see why and thank you for that.

[01:23:37] CK Lin: Who mosey, I really, really appreciate you, uh, sharing your wisdom, your perspective, your narrative, uh, and just really who you are, your transmission, um, super practical, very grounded, and thank you for being UN noble

[01:23:52] Ramsay Taum: warrior. Well, thank you for having me on the show and for, uh, acknowledging me in that way.

Uh, and likewise, [01:24:00] um, for you in your practice and continuing that and revealing to others, uh, what could be very much a part of their own experiences? It's just a matter of pulling the curtains back and looking deep enough. Yeah. Hm. Looking in. So thank you CK for the time. And I look forward to future conversations and opportunities for us to, to work together.

[01:24:23] CK Lin: Yes, absolutely. And for those of you who love what, um, KU Ramsey shared go to bit Lee four slash truth beyond limits until the next time