169 Francoise Bourzat: Tapping into Natural Intelligence & Deep Wisdom With Sacred Mushrooms

[00:00:00] CK: my guest today is the author of the groundbreaking book, consciousness Medicine. She is an expert in somatic psychology and traditional healing practices.

She partners with MasTec healers in Mexico to lead life transforming sacred mushroom ceremonies. She has been a guest on the Team Ferris podcast, Sam Harris podcast, Michael Poland. And Gabor Monte had both gave generous praises about her work. If you want to learn more of her work, go to her website, https://francoisebourzat.com/.

Welcome to Noble Warrior Francoise.

[00:00:35] Françoise: Thank you. Thank you, ck. Glad to be.

[00:00:39] CK: So I wanted to first start off by asking you about your book. It's such a beautiful articulation. You know, you take people from the preparation to ceremony, to integration. I just love the way you described it. So why don't we talk a little bit about the creative process.

How did you come to the book? Was it just a divine download, [00:01:00] you just first draft and it's done? Or was it just, you know, over the decades of your work, you started to just put it all together?

[00:01:07] Françoise: Mm-hmm. Thank you for that question. It's so good. Entry. Um, the book came about because I was, um, designing and creating a course at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco, where I was asked to join the ewe psychology program as an adjunct faculty.

Um, and I was asked to teach a class in, um, psychotherapy and expanded states of consciousness. Um, so in. Taking people through the arc of such experiences, it became really obvious to me to, uh, take them through this, um, preparatory phase. Um, and through of course the experiential, um, phase, uh, at least explaining about the experiential phase and then the integration phase and through, uh, the preparation of this course.

Um, [00:02:00] Some student of mine, uh, my co-author, Christina Hunter, uh, who was taking my class, decided that it was really a valuable amount of material that should be recorded, transcribed, and that she would help me, uh, put together this book. Um, my previous, um, manner of articulating had be, uh, through my training of, uh, psychedelic guides and, um, people interested in facilitating those, um, those experiences.

So essentially the material was there, but it was, um, organized for the course, uh, at the academic university. And so, We recorded these talks, we transcribed these talks, and then we fleshed it out with, um, with, uh, stories and nutrition. And, and then my personal philosophy about all this started to appear more intricately, uh, through the narrative that her and I were having also.

Um, the [00:03:00] manuscript was reviewed by, um, uh, my friend Ralph Metzner and also Jim Fadiman, uh, as readers of my manuscript before, uh, before the editing process even. And, um, and they were very, uh, wonderful. I know them well, so especially Ralph Metzner. Um, and so they were very instrumental at, um, giving me inputs and feedbacks and, uh, encouragement, uh, in how to maximize, you know, the quality and the life of this manuscript.

So that was that we did this manuscript. We hired a, um, a first reader, uh, Catherine Hiller, and then this other editor, uh, Isan Matsuda, who, um, then pitched the book to North Atlantic book. Essentially. She thought that was really a good, um, rendition of this work. Uh, the method and the five aspect model and the way it was organized was meaningful and, uh, fruitful to people interested in the field.

So she pitched it to North Atlantic Book who, [00:04:00] um, Was interested, um, immediately, so we didn't really have to knock on doors, which was fortunate. Oh

[00:04:06] CK: wow. Amazing. Yeah. So, so, so it sounds like you already have a lot of material. It's all your brain. It was just more of an intention setting, Hey, let's birth this book into the world.

Let's, you know, hone everything together. And how long did that process take? It took about

[00:04:24] Françoise: five years from the time of the, uh, the class started in 2012. The book was published in 2019. So, you know, it took, it took a little while for the book to evolve, but five years of pretty, um, regular writing. Yeah.

Yeah. So, and what was, what was interesting also is to, um, realize the, uh, very generous support of people, um, endorsing, uh, my work and endorsing my, this approach. And what was interesting for me is that, um, I, I follow what's published out [00:05:00] there. Of course, I follow Ralph's book and Jim and other people in the field, which I really respect.

Of course, I respect all their, uh, creations. And I was not really, um, aware that such a book was so, um, needed in the field in a way. I was, for me, how come? Yeah, what was, I had been talking about that for so many years. It felt like, duh, kind of a normal, um, rendition, but I, I, it turned out that people were really gladly surprised that it came out in the field.

So it was a wonderful feedback in a way of, uh, of the, the, the, the usefulness of such book. Yeah, that was good.

[00:05:37] CK: Mm-hmm. So I'll make it personal. So for me, when I, I'm a framework guy. You don't know me, but I'm a framework guy, so I love that you have. Clear structure. Mm-hmm. Like, here's all the steps you do for prep, all the steps, all the phases that you go through during ceremony.

Here's all the steps you take, you know, doing integration. So I love that. And you [00:06:00] also balance it with a lot of like beautiful, like poetic, you know, language and, and stories. The feminine, you know, expression of who you are. So I love just the balance of mm-hmm. Structure, but also the, the, the poetry that, that you have in it.

[00:06:15] Françoise: Mm-hmm. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I've been, uh, I've been, I'm, I'm very systematic. I'm a someone with very organized in my way of, uh, rendering my thoughts and I have a lot of poetry in me. So that was a good combination. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:06:32] CK: So, so I have a question for you cuz, um, You know, I think especially in a spiritual community, you know, they want this like divine downloads, like first draft and just everything comes up beautifully.

Can you just tell us a little bit, what, is it more of a chiseling process? Like you're trying to get every sentence right, exact wording? Or is it just literally just a download and ta There you go.

[00:06:59] Françoise: [00:07:00] You know, I have to, I have to say that my collaboration with Christina or her precision in, um, articulating everything right, she's very precise and I really appreciate that, uh, really added to my tendency to, or my talent we could say of downloading, you know, I have this download of almost like a, a philosophical angle to things or what I think about this work in general.

Of course, coming from my own experiences and watching a lot of people go through that. And so, um, There was a, in initial structure, I should say, a skeleton, you know, the skeleton of the, of the method, you know, and the, the, like, the skeleton. And then we fleshed out the branches and we fleshed out the branches with stories and detail and really refining the small points of the big, uh, bone, bone structure.

So it was, um, more like, and then, uh, from this addition, then we refined [00:08:00] the, the balance between the, the me the mechanical or technical aspect with the, the why this is working, why the, the more intricate, uh, energetic level of, uh, of how this work really, uh, functions in people's psyche and

[00:08:18] CK: body, huh?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So what I'm gathering is, is very much a chiseling process rather than a divine download. First draft. Yes. Yes, yes. That's it. Yes, yes, yes. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so. Why do you think the book resonates so well for, for people in general? Is it just the philosophical aspect of it? Is it the structure aspect of it?

Is it the stories? Just, you know, from a, the, the, the maker perspective. Mm-hmm. Why do you think the book resonated so well?

[00:08:50] Françoise: I think the method was really reassuring for people. There was a, there was an art, there are steps to take. It's very reassuring. It creates safety in people's, um, [00:09:00] venturing into this field or reflecting on what they have experienced. So the, the methodology is creating a container of safety, which I think is really useful.

Then I think that, or I reflect on your question that, um, my personal sharing in a way, my personal reflections on my life, which I disclosed, uh, quite readily and my, um, My own growth. What this work had done for me as a per first, first account experience and, and testimony was also, uh, I think, um, genuinely convincing for people that I knew what I was talking about because I had experienced myself.

I was really coming from direct experience and sharing. Um, I think also that the, um, the, I may say there is a way that fundamentally I have. Compassion and non-judgment to people's, um, [00:10:00] attempt and struggle, attempt to grow and struggle, uh, as we grow. So I think there's a feeling of acceptance and, and that we all human, there's a sort of solidarity feeling that I was trying to really, uh, share with people that we are all doing our best and it's not easy.

And, and we, we, um, we can step into this level of exploration knowing that, you know, um, we do the best we can. And there's a acceptance feeling that I think, uh, permeates the book and I think make, make people feel seen and, um, that they could too, uh, walk that path of transformation with compassion for themselves.

[00:10:39] CK: So real quick on that note, because um, when it gets to the mind, you know, it's all about structure, then scientific backups or, you know, anecdotal backup or whatever the thing is, can get very, very heady. Right. And often we lose sight of the energetic impression it leaves on people. Cuz the famous quote goes, people are not gonna remember what you say or what you do.

[00:11:00] They'll remember how you make them feel. Right. So was there more of a energetic checkpoint chapter to chapter, you know, as you read it out loud to each other or any, any of that sorts. So then you can basically calibrate Yeah. Oh, this is the, the right caliber that I wanted to, you know, express in this chapter or that chapter and then create an arc accordingly.

Mm-hmm.

[00:11:23] Françoise: Yes. My, my main compass, uh, through the book was really to keep the accent on how humanity our um, Like I said, attempt to be the better person we wanna be, uh, a sense of self-acceptance and self-support and solidarity amongst ourselves as human being. And uh, when I was reading a chapter sometime and things were getting a little theoretical or a little distanced from the direct human experience, I was going back to let's just, let's just say we, instead of [00:12:00] I or you, let's just say we, because we are in there together.

And I think that people, um, I've heard people appreciated the we consciousness instead of me pontificating on something I knew because I'm in the same boat. We all, um, I may have more experience in terms of my years or my actual journey experience, but it doesn't mean I'm a better person. You know, I'm just still myself, uh, having my life and my own challenges.

So I want it to be really, um, I. Unified while keeping a certain, um, how, how could I say, seniority on the experience, you know, I don't wanna minimize my mastery to, uh, make people feel more comfortable, but yet, uh, feel really at the same time a human being. You know?

[00:12:48] CK: I love that. I mean, to me, plant medicine journeys in general, it's a very unifying experience.

Mm-hmm. It strips away any kind of identity. You know, you're entrepreneur, you're an [00:13:00] author, you're this and that. The other thing is like, underneath it all, we're all human going through this spiritual journey as a human. Right. So, right. Um, to me, that's one of the reasons why I love that space, cuz we can all basically embrace our greatest self and also our, you know, human moments as well.

Because when your head is in a bucket, everyone. Is going through the same thing. Everybody's,

[00:13:24] Françoise: everybody's

[00:13:25] CK: the same. It doesn't matter who

[00:13:27] Françoise: you're, how much

[00:13:27] CK: money you have, how many followers you have, just doesn't matter. You're just, you're, you're right there. That's right. That's right. So, so in your journey, I want to ask this que this question.

Is this, did you go through sort of an internal journey of, you know, imposter syndrome? Like, who am I to write this book? Who am I to say all these things? And there are this many other books that've said these things before spiritual text or otherwise. Mm-hmm. Can you share with us a little bit of maybe the internal transformation as you put this beautiful [00:14:00] gift that you, uh, have crafted together?

Well,

[00:14:04] Françoise: like I said, I had articulated this, um, Philosophy and method before for years to people. So it was not the first time I was actually coming to bring this body of knowledge or wisdom in both to, uh, other people. So I had this experience of growing into myself as a person who shares, uh, what I share.

Um, however, um, it is true that this process of officializing my knowledge by putting it in the public stage was, um, a, a, a a, uh, interesting process of, I don't know, self-empowerment or self of a different process of validation of really noticing that in writing. How much I knew, how much I, um, Had to share, um, uh, a valuable, my method [00:15:00] was, and as I was writing it, I was feeling the strength of it, of it, I mean, me, but it, you know, there was a, um, the validity of it and the, uh, the helpfulness of it.

So I was kind of chewing on my own, uh, value. Oh, goodness. Or, or, you know, like saying, yeah, I, I know a lot. And people were reading some chapter and I said, you know, you know so much you've been in this for 30 years. You know, you really have a lot to offer. And, and I was like, well, yeah, I guess, but, you know, uh, let me see how I can put that together.

And so, but, but the, the, the reflection of others were, was really useful. I was getting it from within myself as I was seeing the book grow, and I was, um, Sing back, especially Ralph, you know, I mean saying, my God, this is fabulous. You know, you really are holding something unique that nobody else can talk about because you've been to Mexico and you've had the legitimacy of [00:16:00] working with people in a certain framework that you can talk about.

You've, you can talk that you've guided journeys, you know, for years, and that's really, um, a card that you can play in a way or you can do your field research and share that. And so I was, I was realizing that there was an importance to my role and what my life had been and my experience that was really, uh, valid and important to share.

So give me a sense of, okay, I have, I have things to say that are important. You know, it was an interesting nourishment in a, in a way. Mm-hmm.

[00:16:33] CK: Oh, that's beautiful. So one of the guests, uh, said this beautiful quote, really left an impression for me. He said, there's only one of you in all of eternity. And that's such a statement, right?

Because there's no one ever, ever in the past Youngs, and also no one ever, ever to come for e Youngs to come. There's only one of you. So I'm very, very grateful that you took the effort to summarize that your life's work into this beautiful book.

[00:16:59] Françoise: [00:17:00] Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. It felt like this pro, this contribution was really unique.

And I, as the book was creating itself in a way with his own life, I realized that, um, uh, yeah, my contribution was unique and was singular. You know, that it, it didn't exist before. It might not exist later. And that unique voice of what my life had been and what I, what I could share in my own, uh, my own voice.

Mm-hmm. And

[00:17:27] CK: I'm also asking all these questions cuz I'm putting together my own framework. Right. And then, and then one of the thing that was surprising for me is in the effort of putting together my own life's work, my own life story into a singular framework that's coherent right from, from thing to thing to thing.

Um, there's beauty in using it as a, my, basically my, the highest version of myself and then measure myself against it. Yes. Am I actually practicing the practice that I'm supposedly teaching? Mm-hmm. And that's a beautiful thing for me to just [00:18:00] constantly like, I have a thing that's right there. Am I if I'm gonna teach this thing, I don't want to be a fraud.

Like, hey, do as I say, not as I do, but actually practice the thing like we're actually gaining some kind of mastery. So is there anything like that as you are now that you have this beautiful piece of artifact to as opposed measure yourself against? Yes,

[00:18:21] Françoise: absolutely. I mean, it's been really, uh, high task, you know, to optimize the, the a and the method and then check myself against it, so to speak.

And, uh, it, you know, the, the writing of the book of this years has been really, uh, massaging in myself, the, the very, um, uh, you know, uh, the very principle and the very demands of such position as a, as a person engaged in journeys as a person, engaged in supporting people in journeys who I have to be, to be as aligned as possible with my own [00:19:00] teachings.

So it's been interesting to check on my spiritual practice. So to check on my. You know, how much I am in relationships or what kind of relationships am I cultivating and, uh, my, my relation, you know, all the five aspect model. What is my relationship with my body? Am I really in alignment? Am I healthy? Am I doing the right thing?

Am I, you know, emotionally supported and sharing with myself? So, you know, this has been a, a measuring factor as, uh, as my life has unfolded and kipps, uh, Kipps being quite present for me. So it's been really stabilizing that check checkpoint, you know? Um,

[00:19:40] CK: mm-hmm. So I would, I'm, I'm re I'm reco recounting, um, Aubrey Marcus, you wrote a book called On the Day, he shared that, hey, I'm now is perfect, this is basically perfect, do all these things, and oftentimes I'm not perfect.

So, um, what are some of the moments for you [00:20:00] to say, all right, I'm falling off the wagon, I'm not following my own practices. Mm-hmm. What do you do to pick yourself back up and so then you can continue the path and keep moving forward? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:20:11] Françoise: Yeah, there are ways that I catch myself, I've caught myself as, as you are, right?

We keep, it's a, it's a, it's a practice of being in balance. You know, we never really perfectly in balance with everything. I mean, there are moments of life and ebbs and flows, and sometime I'm traveling the world and I'm, uh, you know, needing to be more solitary at some moments cuz I'm so, uh, outbound and, uh, so I noticed the imbalance there.

And so I catch myself back having to carve solitude moments. Uh, or I'm, uh, you know, it's, I don't know, I'm busy with the, you know, podcast or interviews or the client's work, and then I'm not in the garden enough, you know, I'm at the computer too much and I can, I can feel, I mean, my, my system has been pretty, um, how could I say?

[00:21:00] Mm. Uh, sensitized to catch and capture the moments where I'm not in balance. Again, we're not looking perfection, but looking like balance. And so I catch myself, I'm in the computer a lot. I'm gonna close it all, stay outside, get some flowers, get some, uh, you know, put my hands in the soil and really being more quiet in, in the earth so I can, I, I measure and I catch myself, and I do the right thing to help myself be more in balance.

So it's an ongoing process. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:32] CK: So for someone who is watching this right now, they may not have the sensitivity, shall we say, of the awareness of different, you know, mind, body, heart and spirit, environment relations, like all these different acuities that you had talked about in the book.

Mm-hmm. What would you say to someone who is more obtuse. What can they do to, uh, I suppose, cultivate their sensitivity so that they have that fine refinement to [00:22:00] come back to. Mm-hmm. You know, that equanimity, that harmony, that, that balance that you talked about.

[00:22:05] Françoise: Mm-hmm. Well, I would suggest that people find one practice in each of these aspects of the body, emotions, spirit, community, and environment.

They, they, they, they pick, they keep, pick one thing that they consider nurturing for them, that they consider being, uh, something that uplifts the spirit and make them feel that in a healthy place, a place of contentment, a place of feeling well, and then they, um, gear themselves to maintain that one thing that they do or they pay attention to every day.

So it can be simple. It can be drinking more water, it can be drinking less coffee, it can be eating something more or less. It, it just, just maybe exercise a walk, just one practice for each aspect that they feel, I can do this, I can maintain this. And the intention, I call it [00:23:00] attention to intention or intention to attention, you know?

So they, they, they stay aware of the, uh, willingness or the effort, uh, to balance their life. And the fact that, that, that intention is oriented is already a big step and then the rest is practice. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:21] CK: Beautiful. And, and for those that says, uh, CK is doing so great, Francois is doing so great. I am nowhere near that, you know, that comparison, right?

Yeah. Uh, what would you say to that person?

[00:23:34] Françoise: Uh, I say I struggle like everybody else. I may have more practice because I wrote the book because I stayed for years in this thing. You know, and I'm sure you have skills that I don't have. I'm sure you are very, very, uh, evolved and skilled in some territory of life that I have very, very little clue about.

So we each have our tendency to mastery or, uh, you know, a territory of knowledge. And yeah, [00:24:00] I am in, I am in the process of growing and I'm not better. I just have more skill in one specific department that I can offer. And you can offer your skill if I need to have. You know, acupuncture treatment, I'm gonna go to na acupuncturist, and I don't understand very much about that.

And that's okay. I lean on the expert, I receive the expertise, and I don't have to own that expertise of acupuncture. It's okay. I don't have to be perfect on that level, but I can lean on someone else's knowledge and, and, uh, and receive it. So, you know, I'm in, I'm a work in progress like everybody else.

You know, maybe I just have a little more practice on that specific skillset.

[00:24:37] CK: Thank you. Thank you. Um, I, I really feel you, the, the humility that you have, so thank you very much for, for embodying that. Mm-hmm. So you've been doing this for 30 plus years, you've been going through the ups and downs, the difficulties as well as the, the wins and all these things.

Mm-hmm. What, what would you say is the, the source of this motivation? Why do you continue forth going on this, [00:25:00] this, this medicine path? Right. The, the path of being a healer, because in my opinion, that's, That's one of the harder path in my opinion. Right. So why do you persist or continue to do this? Uh, after 30 years?

[00:25:15] Françoise: You know, I was raised into a family that really valued solidarity and human support. Uh, it was very prevalent in my family of origin, how my mother and her sisters supported one another when the kids were born. The, you know, I was raised Catholic in a, um, a community that was very generous and very sharing and very collaborative and the, this human support was touching.

You know, it was really something I absorbed early to be showing up for other people and, uh, being a good human being, uh, in loving and, uh, compassion and help if I could. So I think that that really is the [00:26:00] foundation of my work. Maybe we could say and that, um, Helping other people while helping myself and receiving help as well.

You know, I don't just, you know, put myself superior, but, but you know, the, the, the, the, the fact that we can help each other with different skills, with different approaches is really what community is about for me. We share different things. You know, I can buy my bread from the bread maker and I'm really grateful he knows what he's doing and I can do something else for someone else, and they're happy that I know what I'm doing.

So it's a matter of service, of creating, um, the human family. And I. And I've been going through a lot as my book describes at the beginning. And so I have a sense of suffering. I have a sense of pain, I have a sense of what it's like to carry baggage and wounding and, uh, what it was for me to, what it was like for me to receive really the support of other people who knew what they were doing.

And, and [00:27:00] offered, uh, a, a skillset, set a knowledge, a wisdom, a love, um, to help me overcome and heal myself or creating the context in which I will heal myself. And, and that was very touching for me. And when I, when I realized how much I was able to overcome, understand, heal, uh, grow from my buyers, you know, um, I realized this is a, this is a powerful, uh, angle of, uh, of, of, of, of support.

And this is a powerful healing, healing method that I want to, uh, Harness or offer or learn about, um, so I can be a, be a better instrument for other people's support. Hmm.

[00:27:48] CK: I love that. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for sharing it. So, which is actually the perfect segue to, you know, a lot of people want to know about psychedelic medicine, plant medicine and all these things.

And, [00:28:00] and you and I, we talked previously that, um, you are quite familiar with M D M A, sacro mushrooms and ketamine. Mm-hmm. So for those that are considering, hey, there are those, all this menu of healing modalities. Mm-hmm. Why pick one over the other?

[00:28:16] Françoise: Hmm. Yeah. Well, uh, these three medicines actually very, um, interesting because they go from, Uh, M D M A being, I'm gonna say that like, it's gonna be, I have a lot more to say on M D M A, but, uh, I'm gonna leave that to other experts maybe that can talk about maps and all this.

But M D M A is more of an ego builder. Hmm. People who are insecure about themselves, so don't have a sense of self-empowerment or self-validation. People who have a lot of trauma and a lot of, uh, difficult stories to narrate or, uh, feel, uh, re reminisce, uh, do well with M D M A [00:29:00] because it helps them take their, their past or their present situation into a place where they can have empathy for themselves.

Possibly for other people, uh, but also a sense of inner strength, a sense of capacity, a sense of inner structure that can actually survive and be, uh, strong in the face of, of their ordeal. And so, M G M A, I call it an ego builder in a positive way. Ego being a positive things, uh, a sense of strength and agency and identity.

It's important to feel strength. A teacher of mine, Ron Kurtz, from the Hak Method, used to say, uh, you can only lose an ego once you have one. So, you know, uh, the idea of dissolving the ego with ioes mushroom or L s d whatever is, is, is valued as long as you have one to dissolve. So you have to build, you have to be strong in your ego.

And MD m a is a really good medicine for that. Of course, as [00:30:00] we know in the research that's being, um, unfolding now, it's a very potent medicine for trauma resolution, exploration and shedding. So this is an important piece. The, um, mushroom is, um, is a medicine, uh, that, that tends to, um, soften, sometimes dissolve the edge of the ego.

And so there's more of a leaning into the sublayers of the unconscious, uh, landscape that we hitch have inside ourselves, as well as the bigger landscape of the unconscious that Yung would call the collective unconscious, the collection, the unconscious of humanity, right? And, um, Mushroom is more of a, um, circulator.

It's, well can do that too, on the level of traumas. But, uh, mushroom is more energetically circulating things that have been stagnant at the bottom of our pet, uh, the unconscious, and really bring that to the surface [00:31:00] and circulate the material that has been un dealt with or unacknowledged, uh, or buried in shadow, uh, zones of our inner selves.

And for that, the mushroom is a really, uh, beautiful, um, transformer. It sort of, uh, mm, recycles and reclaims the difficult parts of our history into strength and spirit. Mm-hmm. It's really, uh, a transmuting, um, modality. Mm-hmm. And the ma spoke speak of that. They say that the, the suffering becomes strength.

And the pain becomes love because we are transforming this inner difficulty into something that can support our lives. Um, also the mushrooms are very much a medicine of prayer and of spirit, and of greater, um, cosmic consciousness, uh, is [00:32:00] way beyond ourselves. That's why it's called a transpersonal medicine, uh, ver versus the M T M A, which is very much a personal medicine.

MDM can solely transport you into great peacefulness of the, of, of, of space and sky. But the, um, the mushroom is really about transpersonal what is beyond yourself. So it takes you to what I said, the, the collective consciousness, but also the Cosby consciousness and the great eternity of, of energy, of transcendence, of, uh, consciousness, right, with a big sea.

Um, and that is a very powerful experience for human beings because essentially that's where we're coming from and that's where we're going back to. Um, so the great sense of belonging to a larger picture is what? Reassures us profoundly as human being and we find a, a sense of plugging into source. We plug back into Spirit Source during those experiences and they [00:33:00] fuel our, not only our spirit, but also our life as human beings.

We, we, we get strength, we get a spiritual fuel in how to walk this life here. Academy, ketamine, ketamine is a, the transpersonal of the transpersonal, which is it really? Uh, in high dose of course, and that's what I to be familiar to. There's a lot more mm-hmm. Uh, titration now of dosage and practices and application.

But, um, ketamine is really, uh, taking you, uh, to a place where there's no identity anymore, but there's no sense of. I, I'm having this experience. Whereas in the mushroom, you can still feel sometimes that you have a name. Still in the ketamine you don't have a name. There is an experience unfolding and you become that.

You become the blue, you become the, um, thema or you become, uh, eternity. You know, it's, you become a principal rather than a a, a concrete, uh, a [00:34:00] concrete, uh, it's, it's beyond spirit, even I should say. It's, uh, it's, it's, it's further than spirit. So for some people it's a, it's a really, um, powerful. Um, like my teacher used to say, my teacher Publish Sanchez used to say he used, he used Ketamine a lot actually as I was starting this work.

Um, it was a rehearsal for death. Mm-hmm. You know, ketamine is a rehearsal for death. You really go way beyond. What you can even conceive of, you know, to go into a, a zone that is so, um, far from imagination that is becomes like a dying process and uh, to surrender to that magnitude of effect is quite an experience.

[00:34:49] CK: Hmm. Yeah. I'm actually quite curious about the M D M A experience cuz I've had some experience with ketamine. Mm-hmm. Lots of experience with mushrooms [00:35:00] only beginning to explore M D M A. What was interesting for me about the MD m a space, cuz I'm doing basically comparison studies within myself, right.

The M D M A experience for me dropped me into a deep, um, meditative state where there's no content. Whereas let's say mushroom Maas, there's a lot of content. Mm-hmm So I thought that was really quite interesting of a space. So hence why I'm exploring that space a lot more, cuz in my mind, if I can essentially get into that deep meditative state.

Chloroma, samma, whatever the case, whatever words you use to, to describe that, where there's no content. Mm-hmm. Then I can use some proven, uh, meditation protocols, enlightenment techniques, and so forth to explore that further. Mm-hmm. So, um, do you have any comments you wanna make about that space? I

[00:35:49] Françoise: reflect, yes.

Will I reflect on what you're saying? It is true, and I know from my own M D M A experiences that the space of BLE and of contentment and of, [00:36:00] um, deep wellbeing is an amazing restorative space that can be very much, um, bridging into, uh, the mushroom space that can also be of that nature. The thing is, I feel like we each are given or are allowing ourselves to be in an experience that is appropriate for that moment and, uh, M D M A can be extremely restorative.

M D M A can be very evocative. And I've learned, you know, in my own way, having, I took m d a not that long ago, that some places are very, um, they're very unique. You can have an md I mean, maybe that's what you have had, and I hear that, but sometimes M D M A can be surprisingly churning and sometimes surprisingly blissful.

And I see how, uh, it's pertinent to my life and it's pertinent to what I need. And you know, [00:37:00] it's pertinent to, if I have a blissful place, which I'm glad, certainly I welcome this as the right food for me, or the right level of consciousness that I ought to contact. And if I have a place that's churning, then I'm saying, oh, So I need to look at this territory of my life and that topic, or that challenge, or that relational field, or that personal relational field.

So I feel like the journeys are right at the moment for where, where we are and who we are in our lives, considering all these different elements that are around. So I tend to, I mean, I appreciate your findings and your collecting data on yourself, and I get that. And, uh, at the same time I'm finding myself, and maybe that's only my, my take on this, that I can't do that.

You know, like my, my journeys have been so, I. Diverse and so un not following a track. Mm-hmm. Um, so that's curious for me. I'm curious [00:38:00] about what you're, what you're noticing and you're finding for yourself, which is absolutely what you need. I mean, I'm not contest contesting that at all, but I realize for me, you know, I have a journey here.

I have a journey there, the same medicine, it's the same person, more or less the same life. And, and I go different places, you know? Mm-hmm. So that's interesting. Right? It affects us. So dif uniquely, huh? Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah.

[00:38:22] CK: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so on that note real quick, I'm known to be the guy who takes notes.

You enjoy Uhhuh, Uhhuh. So some people advocate for that. I mean, I'm one of 'em, and some people say, no, no notes, just experience so you can be fully present. My argument there for me is, uh, hey, if I don't take it down, I'll try to remember it. Then I'm no longer present. Yeah. So I need to do it. So for me, that works.

So as a facilitator, as a practitioner, as a, as a student, What's your opinion about note taking, doing the journey experience? You know,

[00:38:58] Françoise: it varies. I'm sorry, it's not a [00:39:00] very clear answer, but there are some people who love to catch, they don't wanna grab as much as they wanna catch. They wanna catch a thought or remind me, I wanna talk about this, or, you know, write it down.

I'm, I'm having this insight and I, I do that, you know, I'll do that for them. Or they'll do that for themselves. And some people like grabby and grabby is different. They don't wanna, they don't wanna miss anything and they don't wanna, they can. And then, and then if we do that one day, I suggest the next time, just let it go.

Let let it go. Cause your mind is, is sort of controlling or monitoring the process in order to remember it. Mm-hmm. And can we have a journey where you trust that whatever is remained. At the end will, will remain. And that that's the important thing to, to work with. And, and they come out of the journey saying, I was a lot in my journey and I don't remember all of it.

And I said, that's okay, because the [00:40:00] medicine has worked on you. And the fact that, you know, you don't know what has happened is somewhat irrelevant. Mm-hmm. Somewhat irrelevant. It has relevance, of course. You know, and maybe things will reveal themself afterwards in the next days. So next weeks impressions of the journey, remembrance of the journey.

But the point is what you remember, what you need to remember and what you don't remember. It's okay because the, the, the, the journey has happened and has informed and impacted you. So it's not like it's lost. Might be lost to your mind, but it's not lost to your process.

[00:40:36] CK: I love that. Yeah. I mean, ultimately it's the mind, body, heart, and spirit is super, super positioned on top of each other.

Right. So it's not just about the mind, as you said, grabbing something. Yeah. Let me hold onto this thing because what I realized for me, make it personal. Now if I grab it, then I lose everything else. Gotcha. And that's, that's not conducive. Right. So my note taking really, and this is not me being [00:41:00] public about this, it's not about actually reveal like line by line copy editing.

Like, oh yeah, this was really insightful. Check. You know, it is really more just so then I can be present. And I was contradictory, paradoxical. But that's ultimately why I do what I do. I hear

[00:41:16] Françoise: you. And that it's working for you. It's really, it's really fruitful for you. And you don't do that out of grabbing, you do that out of catching.

Which is, which is great. You know, I had a, I, I've had people doing journeys where they have so much material, so much material at the end they don't remember a thing. Mm-hmm. But then the physiology has changed. Their body healing has, has been, you know, really set, set, set in their, in their, in their flesh.

And they have less of that symptom and they have less of that disease, or they have less of that addiction. And, and whatever has happened on the image and emotion and memories is erased because everything has landed into a physiological, uh, landscape. And that's fascinating, right? I mean, they [00:42:00] wanted to remember everything I said, don't worry.

And then they talked to me and I said, I don't remember a thing really. I mean, vaguely. But what I'm noticing is that my body has changed. Mm-hmm. And so and so, you know, we don't know what happens in the journey, happens in the journey, and then we notice how we are transformed on the other side. That's another piece of mm-hmm.

You know, why do we do journeys? But that's

[00:42:23] CK: another topic. So actually perfect segueing, because you've done about 2000, right? These type of, uh, psilocybin type experiences for people. So you must have seen all kinds of, uh, manifestation of, you know mm-hmm. The journey then, and before, during, and after. Right.

So for you as a practitioner, as a therapist, what do you look for of like, alright, that was a, a good journey. It worked, you know, has transformed this person, helped this person in some way, shape or form. You had alluded to one already, which is the somatic [00:43:00] psychosomatic release of some physiological phenomenon.

Mm-hmm. Are there others that you, you know, pay attention to, have your antenna catching? Well,

[00:43:12] Françoise: I, I believe that everybody's, uh, Transformation takes place in the journey, and it takes place on different level, just like the holistic model suggests. Um, every journey works. Now there is modulation in that, in that statement.

Mm-hmm. Some journeys are completely transformative, like opening the emotional dam or mm-hmm. Killing the body of an illness or, uh, connecting with spirit for someone who is, you know, not at all, at all in the, you know, in the, in the sphere of spirit. So there are some journeys that are radical and then there are some journeys that are needing to be digested, you know, and needing to be, um, felt in life that don't.

Pen out in the journey [00:44:00] itself because there people don't remember, or it's too vague, or, well, they felt this, but they don't know how that works for the intention. You know, there's, there's a lot of confusion sometime in journey, but I do believe that every journey has the perfect outcome, the perfect, um, purpose, the perfect, uh, function.

Uh, some journeys are powerful and some journeys are kind of seemingly less powerful, but the result afterwards, the how we are delivered at the end of the journey is always perfect. And that's part of the work that I think the art of the psychedelic experience is to see that, to see who we are on the other side of an experience.

People are very attached to the content of the experience. You know, they kind of. Materialistically focused on the actual experience and I'm interested in that, but I'm more interested in, as a practitioner, supporting people. I'm more, or, [00:45:00] yeah, I would say more interested in what they become on the other side of the journey.

Hmm. Cause people come to me. People come to me for transformation. Mm-hmm. People come to me because they have something in life that, you know, they have a bad relationship, they have an illness, they have an addiction, they have a past that is really heavy. They have, uh, symptoms of something, you know, even if they're curious, you know, they come here, they said, you know, I heard about this.

I really wanna experience this. And I say, okay, tell me about your life. What is calling you this, in this place? What is inside you feeling that there is a pool towards an experience that could. Hopefully transform you or tr open your mind, huh? To change your mind like Michael said. Right. What, what is the, what is the, what is the calling inside?

Why are you here? And inevitably, [00:46:00] the intention that gets, um, formulated, defines the journey and defines the other side of the journey. And that's what interests me the most, the, the process of transformation. Mm-hmm. Naming it, naming the wish before, how it works in the journey, what really happened, what really got undo opened, and then who they are on the other side.

I love that. I love this arc of, of examination of the, of the process and the result.

[00:46:33] CK: Yeah. In my opinion, um, the journey begins when you set your intention. So you may, I mean, not you, but whoever generic you. Mm-hmm. You may come with like, oh, I want a, you know, million dollar business. How do I get an answer for that?

Or I really want to manifest a life partner. Like, that's fine. And what, what's the why underneath that? What is it that you [00:47:00] really want to experience? And I think in the psychedelic experience, in my opinion, it's beautiful because you may get the, the tactical answer that you seek, but then the medicine continue to ask.

Okay. So then what? Then what? Then what? Then that's the, the blossoming of, um, then what's really underneath. Do you have any opinions about that?

[00:47:23] Françoise: Yeah, I mean, you're right. I think that the intention, the, the intention set is a big, um, is a big, um, focusing, uh, moment. And I, like I said, I think that the, um, the moment of.

A feeling that they wanna do a journey is the key for me. Mm-hmm. Is even a, I agree. The intention setting, of course, is very important. Noticing what do I want out of this experience? You know, what do I want? But even before the, the moment they contact me, or the moment they feel like they wanna contact me, or, you know, there's a, there's the [00:48:00] pre-contact, the place in them that stops to generate the, the, the calling.

You know, it's almost like it's, uh, on the subconscious level. There's something at work that starts to orient towards that

[00:48:13] CK: flame. Do you help 'em put words to that desire? That core, maybe not the superficial. Okay. So can you walk us through how do you get to that core desire of like, I don't know why, but I'm called to do this and what Yes.

What series of

[00:48:29] Françoise: questions? So I said, yeah, you're called to do this. So what happened? What, what was it in you when you heard about that possibility? When you found out about me through your friend or your family member, you know, what, what was happening in you in that moment? And they say, well, I was scared, or I was excited, or I was hopeful, or I, I realized how much I needed this.

You know, there's a kind of a, um, the sh the, the shade of intention that starts to shape up, you know, it's almost like it starts [00:49:00] to, starts to orient them and they start to feel something. Yeah. You know, when I heard that it was a possibility and I was talking to a friend, and then I, I realized I can do that.

I felt, I felt like, oh my God, I can do that. I felt scared, you know, like their psychi already was working, even though they hadn't called me yet, you know, and we hadn't talked about intentions. So it's important for me to start to, um, validate, uh, the, the call of their soul, I wanna say. Mm-hmm. You know, there's a, a seeing of something that oriented them that was deeper, that they could formulate.

And it's a seed, you know? It's a seed by the time they call me and by the time we talk, and by the time they set the intention, we way into the work already. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Way into the work. So I'd like to catch the, the moment of orientation and what that feels like for them.

[00:49:52] CK: I love that that is the artistry of Venus Space Holder.

So thank you for demonstrating that. Mm-hmm. And that's beautiful. So I want [00:50:00] to double clicking on mushrooms since you know that's your expertise. So what are some of the misconceptions that most people have about sacred mushrooms? And I wanted to offer to paint a little context before you answer. Your mushroom is relatively easily accessible.

Um, is pretty affordable, right? So it's not, hundreds of dollars is like pretty, you know, tens of dollars and then you can actually acquire whatever mushroom that you want. And, uh, so most people probably start off there be just because the accessibility. And so what are some of the misconceptions that most people have about sacred mushrooms?

[00:50:38] Françoise: Hmm.

I think that people, um, again, I generalize here, right? Because I don't wanna, there's plenty of people who orient themselves to, with mushroom differently, but there's a bit of, um, um, extractiveness or. Uh, [00:51:00] I will venture to say maybe a lack of respect towards mushroom as a easily accessible, we can buy a bag, bag of shrooms, you know, and we can drop shrooms and be with friends at the party or even do something, uh, you know, ourselves.

And the fact that it's accessible and easy, uh, for some people tends to, um, overshadow the deep sacredness of this medicine. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, it tends to be too easy. Um, you know, if it was hard to get and you need to brew the thing and the jungle, or, you know, you have to actually, it's, it's hard to acquire or you don't know, you know, it would be considered more with more Oh.

But because it's, uh, it's an easy, you can grow them, you can buy them, you can, you know, it's, it's cheap, you know, it tends to be, uh, a little bit objectified. So it's a bit of a, that, that misconception, that is easy. That is an easy medicine. It's not an easy medicine. It's a very complex medicine. [00:52:00] Mm-hmm. And it's a, it's an ancient medicine, as you well know, from different movies.

It's a very ancient medicine that is fundamental to our planet. And so connecting with mushroom is a big ordeal because it really takes us back to our origins and our, our making of, of, of life on this planet. So it's a, it's a deep venture. It's a, it's a deep venturing on, on how we are human beings and how we are.

And then there is all this, you know, principles of the mushroom connectedness and, you know, my consciousness and all this. And when we eat mushroom, the misconception is that we're eating a medicine, but we, we, we often forget that we really connecting with a, a massive intelligence of earth. Mm. And so the the concept misconception of her, okay, we're gonna take some mushroom and we're gonna fly, or we're gonna go into, um, you know, [00:53:00] cosmic land, or, um, have good time with some friends over, you know, campfire and sing songs and, which is fine, which is fine.

I'm not saying it's disrespectful necessarily to be with friends and have an intentional, you know, uh, experience. But the misconception is that's gonna be easy and light. And Russians are always so easy and light, they, they can take people into very, uh, deep places. Like Sam Harris was talking about his experience on this podcast with, with me.

He was talking about that, that he was. You know, it was not an unintentional journey, but it was very scary and it was very powerful and very, it was not prepared for it. So taking lightly something that is really mighty, fundamentally, uh, you know, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it can really, uh, yeah. It's a misconception, you know, that the easy and you can take mushroom and that's, that's cool.

And it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a powerful

[00:53:59] CK: [00:54:00] undertaking. Yeah. It's similar to a spark, right. If you don't tree a spark with respect Exactly. It's gonna create a burn down the whole force. Right. Exactly. It's,

[00:54:11] Françoise: you're right, it is very similar to that. Right. It's, it's a big deal. It's a big deal to take mushroom.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:54:16] CK: So, so somebody who has guided people over 2000 journeys and who have had hundreds of journeys yourself, um, you know, mushroom really, really well on a deep level. Right? You've been doing this for 30 plus years and so. From a black belt's perspective. Right. Somebody who is doing this for a long time, give us a glimpse of the, the, the, the grandiosity, right?

The, of what's possible of the power or the wisdom that you had talked about earlier.

[00:55:00] I'm gonna

[00:55:00] Françoise: answer that with maybe a, a, an answer that I don't know. You'll see if that fits your, your question, but Sure. Um, when we take mushrooms, we become mushrooms. Mm-hmm. The entire, the entire proposition is to die to ourselves, to become the organism that we are consuming, to become that sacrament of earth to us human being, and to remove ourself from our identity, our thoughts.

Our attachments, our human nature to become, to ship shift and to become the mushroom and understand who they are, what they do, and why they're here. And then when we are them, we are informed by an intelligence that is so primordial to this planet that we understand our human beingness. [00:56:00] Um, the landscape of the mushroom, the colors of the mushroom, the fundamental bridge between the depth of earth and the luminosity of the sky is what we are walking as human being.

And when we understand the, the bridge that we are, you know, we are a bridge between the depth of darkness and the brightness of light. Right. And this, that's what the mushroom teaches us. It, it's a lesson in being human being. It's a lesson in incarnation. And we are taught by being them who we are as human.

And so, you know, having an organism that is essentially underground, right? And that it's informed by the mystery of what we cannot see and [00:57:00] show up above the ground for our consumption. So we will penetrate the depth of our inner self and the depth of earth and understand the message that is the same of our inner self and earth is the same.

It's the hidden, um, mystery of the un unknown and unseen. And, and we don't have to know and see everything, but we can rest in what we don't know. We can trust what we don't know and don't understand. And that's what the mushroom teach us. And when we, we have these principles and concepts downloaded in us by consuming the mushroom, we live different lives as human beings.

We surrender to life. We trust the signs we track. We are becoming more receptive in a way. We are becoming more an animal. We recover our, uh, nature that is connected with earth. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So [00:58:00] the mushroom, for me, this is what it is about. It's about, um, spirit and matter. It's about being a, a spirit person, being a matter person.

And how do I balance this razor's edge of life between being a spiritual being and being an earthly being. And how do I, how do I remember both worlds? You know, the night and the day and the. You know, this, this oscillation between who I am and for me, this is what the mushroom fundamentally pass on to us, transmit to us.

Mm-hmm. Um, now we know that this is the message that I feel I understand in my own version of that. I'm not saying I have the wisdom of the mushroom down, you know, but this is my understanding, this is my experience that I can share over repetitive journeys and repetitive download that seem to have confirmed something for me.

Or that's where I go, let's put it this way. Mm-hmm. Maybe [00:59:00] someone else would've a completely different theory and a completely different sharing of what mushrooms really accomplish in us. This is only my, my experience, and again, I'm, I'm saying that really with, um, How could I say the limitation of who I am as a, as a person?

Transcribing that, translating that, right. I mean, I'm sure Terrence McKenna a different narrative, or Ralph had a different narrative. You know, people have a different narrative because we're unique being, this is my narrative, right? Uh, again, I don't mean to tell the truth of the universe, but, um, but what's happening also, as we, as we ingest the mushrooms, you know, we realize that the mushrooms are doing a melting, the melting things inside us, as we very well know it on a physiological level.

Right? That's pretty obvious. They melt our, um, contractions. They, they liquefy us. Mm. They, um, they're mushrooms, you know? They eat us, they eat us, they compost us. You know, they, they actually reduce [01:00:00] us to nothing. Because we need to die again. We need to be chewed by the mushroom in order to reappear, in order for the, for the wisdom of the mushroom to reveal itself.

We need to die. And the mushroom is a, is a dying, um, compound in a good way, you know, but also in a scary way. You know, I, I know I've been dying on the mushroom and it's not funny, you know, but, um, this, this feeling of really melting into the ground, you know, melting into nothing and being, you know, chewed and liquified is, is really what, um, permits the emergence of something else.

So mushroom is a dying process, you know? It's a dying impermanence, revival, rebirth. Uh, it's, it's a very fascinating, um,[01:01:00]

Work, it's a labor of, um, of dying and being reborn really every time. And it's, you know, you would think, oh, well she's been dead and reborn, you know, 50,000 times. But, but no, every time it's the new thing. Every time there's a miracle in this feeling of disappearing and blending into the ground because that, that moment that I soak myself into the earth, I become her and I become that intelligence.

You see, I disappear from my mind and my thoughts and my whatever, and I become nothing. And that nothing is where the wisdom is poured into my spirit. And then when I come back, when the mushroom ends and my, my self regroups, I become informed with a message. So for me, this is how it

[01:01:52] CK: works. Hmm. What a beautiful articulation.

I so appreciate the metaphors as you're speaking. [01:02:00] You know, the image comes to mind where you're playing with your garden right in the soil. Mm-hmm. And the image of the being on the razor's edge of in a spiritual person, a spirit, and also matter melting into the ground. Um, I can really feel a lot of, um, respect, reverence that you have with mushroom.

And it's so different than my, cuz I j I didn't have that, so you were literally, maybe not literally, but blowing my mind in the moment, like, oh wow, you know, what a relationship to, um, to have with this sacred, um, plant the mushrooms. So thank you so much. I really, really,

[01:02:43] Françoise: yeah. I think it's really important, you know, as we consume these organisms from earth that we really realize Earth is growing them.

And what does she has to tell us through her little plants or mushroom or vine or leaves or gra seeds, you [01:03:00] know, and I think I end my book like this, um, because that's the most potent message we can possibly draw from all this sacred medicine, you know, grown on earth. I'm talking now natural medicine is that this is, this is the intelligence and the wisdom of earth for human beings.

This is what she gives us to heal, to heal our consciousness, to become better people, to love one another, better to treat our, you know, to understand her power. And so we need to, I think, as people consuming natural organism to really understand where they come from. They're not just in the vacuum, you know, okay, we have bag of mushroom, or we have a cup of iosk, but like, Where does that come from?

Who is producing this? You know, how, how are we blessed with the intelligence and the wisdom of this planet as an organism to generate this, [01:04:00] this organisms, you know, this, this, this medicines for our conception. How, how wise, you know, how helpful and how gener uh, how intelligent that is, right?

[01:04:14] CK: Mm-hmm. I came across a beautiful articulation of the current state of affair that we are have today.

Mm-hmm. Uh, I'll, I'll do my best to articulate it. Uh, the, the sentence says something along the line of, we have caveman emotions, myth, evil institutions, and God-like technologies. Mm-hmm. Go. So, so, so from your perspective in terms of the evolution of the collective consciousness, the individual consciousness, how do you feel mushroom play a role in helping us evolve as mm-hmm.

You know, individuals, community, society as a whole? Because, um, you know, we have a lot of [01:05:00] guideline technologies now that could potentially wipe us out, potentially, hopefully that doesn't happen. Right? So in my, my consciousness work is so important. So do you have any opinions about how Mushroom is helping us evolve, either individually or collectively?

Mm-hmm.

[01:05:16] Françoise: I think the, the, the knowledge of what Mushroom accomplished with fantastic fungi or with, uh, you know, Michael's, uh, movie, how to Change Your Mind, and maybe, I'm sure others, and, uh, wrote, uh, Marilyn Childress book, Ang of Life, for example, um, are really, um, informing society on. In this case, what mushrooms can really, uh, accomplish on the level of, uh, the planet, on the level of, um, our interconnectedness, uh, through understanding the interconnectedness of the natural world through, um, um, mycelium, uh, inter interchange.

So I think that as this, as this [01:06:00] information permeates, hopefully the social, uh, mentality, we can start to understand the, the value and benefit of what mushroom can accomplish on the level of society by making us more, um, so, you know, in solidarity with each other, but making us more equal by making us more compassionate or mutually supportive or forgiving or, um, attentive.

Uh, and I think the. Um, yeah, the, the, the presence of mushroom as a healing modality, as a healing organism is, um, can make society evolve, can make society be a more intelligent and hopefully compassionate, uh, uh, territory for evolution. You know, um, [01:07:00] after all, like I said earlier, we come from mushroom.

Maybe we need to return to mushrooms to evolve, you know, so to lean on mushroom, to lean on them, to, to, to remember where we come from and, and learn again, look back to where we're coming from, if we want to evolve in a way that is informed by wisdom.

[01:07:24] CK: Thank you. So the name of the podcast is Noble Warrior.

As you may have guessed, I have a martial background, right? So, coming from someone who is a black belt who's led 2000, you know, ceremonies, what would you say to someone who's compelled, who's enrolled, who's like, yes, I wanna learn more about mm-hmm. Mushrooms and the wisdom that he has to offer. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. What would you say to that person? Is it, I would just throw out some options to microdose all the time so you can, you know, throughout learn, learn about it throughout the [01:08:00] day. Is it heroic dose, you know, every three months, you know, to learn more about mushrooms. So from a practitioner knowing why you know today, what would you say to someone who wants to learn more about the wisdom that the mushroom has to offer?

[01:08:13] Françoise: Mm-hmm. Well, first of all, I wanna, I wanna name or reflect on the name of your podcast because I think that a warrior, a noble warrior is a very beautiful word, terminology because, um, it applies certainly to martial art and many different practices, but it really applies to the undertaking of, um, psychedelic journey with mushroom because, you know, to have the courage to go inward and cross the barriers of fear and cross the barrier of history or cultural oppression requires a lot of courage.

And it's a warriorship path to go inside oneself and really face the ordeal. It's really the, it's really the hero's journey, right? [01:09:00] And so, uh, it takes a lot of warriorship to, to have the courage to face oneself. It's probably the most scary thing there is. And it creates a, a, a sense of nobility, you know, to, to stand.

To stand in the face of fear and to move forward anyway with a sense of, uh, in hopefully internal compass and internal, uh, anchor with the support of masters around to, to walk that path of warriorship. You know, it's, it's it forges strength and it forges courage to walk that path of psychedelic. So I just wanted to reflect on that because, um, it's very much a path to warrior.

So that was for my reflection on your title. Um, as far as dosage go, you know, um,

[01:09:51] CK: actually the question was how does one walk the path to learn more about, um, you know, the wisdom of the mushroom? [01:10:00] So yeah,

[01:10:02] Françoise: Microdosing is a very interesting entry point as far as getting into a relationship with the mushroom as an entity, as an energy, almost as a color, and has a, uh, our bodies invite that, um, medicine to find its way through our, our subtle energies.

So, I. Microdosing and I like to suggest people to microdose because there is a, a sense of habitation to a frequency almost. It's almost like doing flower essence, right? Or different, um, uh, different herbal approaches that are very, uh, um, topic and yet potent on other level.

Um, so microdosing is a very good approach and I feel like it's actually quite potent. Um, I use it myself. [01:11:00] I suggest it to other people. I have protocols that are, um, That I've created in order to invite people into this space to really look at what is happening for them, look how they, of course, do the ingestion and the dosage and all, and then look at the EF effect and impact of the microdosing cyber whole protocol that I've created for that, because I feel, um, responsible for supporting people through this microdosing, uh, arc.

It's a very powerful, transformative, um, process. Um, people who want to explore a little deeper, the edge of having their consciousness or their perception being altered, uh, can benefit from, you know, a light dose maybe, I don't know, a gram, uh, mushroom to o of course in a ritual way, and with intentionality and with a good set.

Um, uh, maybe someone present on the premises. Maybe not necessarily in the room, but on the premises in case, you know, [01:12:00] there's some little material that flares up. Um, So, uh, a light dose can be really beautiful in getting to know how to open up and how to agree to let the mushroom work with our bodies and welcome the images or the emotions that, or the material that emerges.

Uh, it's very interesting to track the how things are appearing from inside our heart almost, uh, in those, uh, places of light dosage. Um, and as time goes, someone can amplify the dosage again with maybe a little more, uh, support ahead of time, a little, maybe someone on board to see them through, uh, the preparation, the journey, and some integration, some unpacking and looking at the material.

Of course the, the hero's journey or whatever the heroic dose is a, is a, it varies from people to [01:13:00] people. I mean, some heroic dose can be light for some people and, you know, massive for others, um, you know, high doses of mushroom really require a very skilled, uh, guide to, um, assist, monitor and track tracking is, is accessible to, to people who have a lot of experience.

If I, I can track what's going on in someone's journey. I know what's going on in someone's journey, not the image they have, but I know what I, I can feel what they're going through. I can feel if there is fear, I can feel if they are open, feel, if they are, I can see even people showing up. I can see that their mother is in the room.

I can, I can track things that requires a different level of, uh, expertise. Of course. Um, But, uh, uh, high dosage, uh, require someone to be there to track and contend the space. Um, and, you know, high dosing. Um, and the [01:14:00] effect of high dosing is more positive when there is someone on, in, there is a guide who has gone deep themselves, who has done a lot of work because that wide space or massive container can really allow people to go deeper into their own journey.

The trust, the subliminal trust and the reliance that is present in the room allows for the depth of the journey. So that's a factor that I consider important here.

[01:14:31] CK: Beautiful. I so appreciate you. Um, well, before we complete, first of all, I wanted to first of all, thank you so much for sharing your valuable insights and experiences with us.

It's very evident to me that not only you're dedicated to do this, to walk this path, but you have made significant contributions to this field and, um, um, I, I feel that it's really important for us to touch upon it maybe a sensitive [01:15:00] topic that has come to my attention to my research. There has been some accusations of misconduct involving, you know, you and what's going on with your husband.

So is there anything that you wanted to address those concerns, to share your side of the story? Mm-hmm.

[01:15:16] Françoise: I know that these accusations have been, um, challenging for me, certainly, uh, in the face of my. Dedication and contribution and effort to be in the field in a, the best way possible.

Also realize that, uh, the people bringing up these acquisitions, I, I I, I, I feel have been dealing with a lot of personal pain and I appreciate that and respect that, of course, and, uh, acknowledge that, um, some things have been difficult for some people in the field of maybe our work or the field of psychedelics in general.

Uh, what it brings up, you know, is, um, The importance of, uh, looking at the role of a guide, the dynamic between the guide and [01:16:00] the person doing the work. Um, uh, the theme of consent. Also, what is possible, what is agreed upon, uh, before journey, during a journey, what is discussed after a journey That, that sometimes the, the difficulty during a journey that can be, uh, challenging both for the client and for the guide that are really being fleshed out afterwards and really processed to the satisfaction of everyone.

So I think that there is a great, um, and very unfortunate but powerful lesson in how to really have a, a more, uh, detailed dialogue and conversation around power dynamic content. Uh, What is, uh, appropriate or not appropriate to intervene with during journeys? Um, uh, the shamanic path is a path of intervention.

Um, in Mexico, there's a lot of intervention on physical bodies and energetic bodies, and it's considered normal there In our culture, you know, we, [01:17:00] we, we are in a different culture and interfering with people's physical self can be considered, um, challenging in, you know, intrusive. And, and sometime it can be really involving.

And, and so it, it, you know, we need to talk about it some more. And I think the topic is valuable for the psychedelic field. And I know that after this, um, accusations went out, a lot of concern and a lot of conversations happen in many different psychedelic milia, uh, which, which I think were, you know, challenging for everyone, but also very fruitful.

We need to reassess that. I mean, we need to look at that very clearly and really make sure that nobody is, uh, Ending with pain or a feeling of being transgressed or, um, you know, we need to really assess this power dynamic that is very tricky in those fields. So, you know, I regret the acquisition. I regret the impact that it may have had on my life.

Um, and I regret the pain that has been, uh, clearly [01:18:00] felt on the other side. And I hope that this is bringing a teaching, you know, that can benefit

[01:18:06] CK: the field. Thank you so much for your, for your honor's reflection. Mm-hmm. Um, well, let's, let's bring it up to a close. Yes. What is one thing if people are listening to you, they're inspired by your dedication, your contribution, what's one, and they're, they're in, they're curious about the possibility of, you know, receiving wisdom from the mushroom.

Mm-hmm. Is there anything, what's one thing you want to leave them with? Hmm.

[01:18:40] Françoise: I wanna say, make an altar to the mushroom and make an altar to the mushroom in your heart. Let the mushroom reside in you. Let the mushroom, uh, be in your life as a torch, as a light torch into [01:19:00] dark places. You can make an altar physically, you know, a little something, a little place that's dedicated to that medicine to keep it present in your mind as you walk around.

And then you'll find the mushroom altar inside you that is deepening and broadening and informing you.

[01:19:23] CK: I so appreciate you just, again, I, I say this throughout the podcast, but I'll make it super clear. Just really appreciate you walking this path of being a noble warrior. Right. That continue to persist in spite of whatever challenges, whatever accusations, whatever personal or business or otherwise come your way.

Um, like I said earlier in our podcast, the, the path of a healer, in my opinions, one of the more challenging ones of any professions that one can take. So I really appreciate you just walk your path with humility, with integrity, [01:20:00] and with honestness, with earnestness, and you have so demonstrated that in our conversation together.

So thank you so much for being here on Noble Warrior. Thank

[01:20:08] Françoise: you, CK thank you so much for inviting me. It's been a pleasure talking to you and, uh, finding myself saying things that I hadn't quite said before.

[01:20:16] CK: Oh, amazing. Yeah. Mission accomplished.

[01:20:19] Françoise: Yeah, you're good. You're a good, uh, listener and a good interviewer.

[01:20:22] CK: Thank you