172 Max Stossel: Unleashing the Power of Words and Storytelling

[00:00:00] CK: my guest here today is Max Stale. He's an award-winning poet, filmmaker, and speaker. Recognized by Forbes as one of the best storytellers of the year, is one man.

Show words that move has been selling out theaters in New York City and touring in select locations. Go to words that move.com for more info. Welcome to Noble Warrior Max.

[00:00:23] Max: Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

[00:00:25] CK: So I wanna make this public. I was watching your newest show and I really love the synchronization of your words and the music, and really felt them and gave them lots of goosebumps.

So thank you so much for the work that you do. Thanks for

[00:00:43] Max: that reflection. Um, Yeah, it's been a, a beautiful journey putting that out to the world. It's a, a film of the, uh, it's like a one hour, it's the one hour show that was live and it's turned into a digital special. So it's a combination of film and music and [00:01:00] poetry and it's something really unique and something I love a lot.

And then if you're listening to this, I hope that you'll watch, if you like what you're here today.

[00:01:06] CK: So I want to dive into later on, not right now, but later on the creative process of assembling all of that together. But I want to zoom out real quick cuz you introduce yourself as a poet. So I'm sure you get that question a lot.

You actually have said it, you made a piece out of what do you do as a poem, right? So in your opinion, what's the primary purpose of a poet in today's society?

[00:01:33] Max: Hmm. I think one of the, one of the answers to that question is to not answer that question ah, of like a, the

[00:01:44] CK: meta, meta answer.

[00:01:46] Max: Um, but yeah, like a rejection of the idea that art needs a purpose or a reason, or that we need a purpose or a reason, and whether it's that of a poet or of an artist.

Um, but I think to [00:02:00] steadfastly stand in like, Hey, here's what I am, and here are like, here's what's real for me, regardless of what that is or the quote unquote value that we perceive it has to society or not. Just here's what's happening, here's what I see, here's what I observe. And like without any need for that.

Be responded to in a certain way, make money, whatever it is. Just like here, here's who, here's who I am. I think that's a big piece of what being an artist is and not here's who I am to show you who I am. No, not that just here's who I am, cuz here's who I am. And that being enough.

[00:02:36] CK: Well, but that sounds to me very similar.

Can you nuance that for me real quick? Cuz one is, here's who I am and here is, uh, show, let me show you who I am. So what's, what's the nuance there? Sounds nuance. Very,

[00:02:51] Max: very similar. Yeah. No, sh the thanks for asking the nuance is, here's who I am. To show you who I am is [00:03:00] because I'm trying to get you to understand, um, I'm showing you so that you see me.

Here's who I am, cuz here's who I am. It's just this is who. This is what I am, here's who I am, here's who I am right now. And how you receive that sort of not my responsibility. Um, and I hope you receive it loving. I hope it feeds you. I hope it's beautiful. Like that's what I want. That's my own personal preferences, and that makes me feel good when that happens.

Um, I see. And, but really it's about just like this, I'm not doing it for your reaction. And I think in our social media world, it's very hard to see that nuance. Mm-hmm. Of like for the external likes, the views, the shares, the attention not for that. Just here, here's, here's what's real for me.

[00:03:51] CK: Ah, I see. So, so the nuance for me, what I'm hearing between the line is attachment, here's me no attachment, here's [00:04:00] me so that I get something in return that likes the views or whatever.

Yeah. Is that, is that an accurate reflection

[00:04:07] Max: true, to truly be removed from any sort of need for res a certain type of response or expectation of how that's going to, um, yeah. Be received or what I'll get in return just separate from that, just being Yeah. I think that's the role of a lot of artists and if we can expressing it,

[00:04:27] CK: you know, one of the things, so I'm, shall we say, not a poet, not a poet, not a professional poet, shall we say?

I'm, I use words, but what I, what I see as a role of a modern day poet is to feel and express their truth as unad adulterated as possible. And that's, to me is a beautiful path.

[00:04:52] Max: I love that. And yeah, I think that's, I think what we're saying is similar. Mm-hmm.

[00:04:57] CK: So, um, [00:05:00] how do you manage, convey. This really fundamental truth of being human with your craft of language, you know, in an imagery and, and and, uh, felt experience through your poetry and storytelling.

I mean, that's a super broad question. I got

[00:05:23] Max: something for you though. Um, well, well,

[00:05:25] CK: the, the, the phrase that really caught my, um, attention was simple complexity. Hmm. And to me, that's a paradoxical phrase. So, so that's, that, you know, had my, it was kind of like a Cohen like, oh, what does that mean? Simple complexity.

So, yes, you got something from me. Go ahead.

[00:05:43] Max: Yeah. And no, what you said totally relates to it there too, as well as simple complexity. Um, words are always going to fall short. The actual human experience and what we're pointing, it's like they can point at it, they can point at what's happening, but they aren't it.[00:06:00]

And that's some of my resistance to like saying this is the purpose, is because to articulate what the purpose of this, of this art or being is would not quite do it. It just, the words are going to fall short. And, you know, we're taking, in reality as we see it, something happens, we filter that through our, you know, literal experiences then to thoughts and emotions about it, and then to words that's three steps removed.

It's kind of like typing something into Google Translate, putting into Spanish, then putting it into Russian and then putting it back to English. Like that's basically what we're getting out. Um, and when we communicate it's really far from what's actually going on. Um, and I think there is a way that.

Poetry and my poetry at its best touches that like, oh yeah. Really points to that thing where we're having a shared experience for a moment. And I love it. I love it when that happens. Um, and yeah, and I think like paradox is one example of that paradox breaks the [00:07:00] mind where it's like, oh, both of these sides of these seemingly opposite things, I feel that they're true and huh?

How can that be? It's like, yeah, it sends the mind on a loop of wait, what? That doesn't make sense. But it is. And, and I love the way that paradox transcends, like thought. Um, and I think often paradox is a good gateway to truth. I tell a lot of writers and poets, like, if you, they stumble on a paradox that like, where both sides feel really true, that's a good signal to like start writing or to, to explore that further because paradox is juicy.

[00:07:34] CK: Mm-hmm. I love that. Uh, so LA he wrote the Doo Jing. Yeah. And the opening line was, If you can articulate a Dow, it's not the dow. Yeah. And then he proceeded to write a whole book about it. So I thought that was a funny thing for me. Yeah. But but what you're saying is exactly, words are so unlimited when you're pointing something, it's, it's, it's about the felt experience.

Hey, don't look at the [00:08:00] finger what you're pointing, but look at the moon as Bruce Lee would say. Right. And, but, but that is a very, is that Bruce

[00:08:07] Max: Lee? I have quoted that so many times. I did not know it was Bruce Lee. Don't fall in love with the finger pointing at the moon. Is that Bruce Lee? He

[00:08:14] CK: said it in the movie.

Got it. And that's why being using that, Hey, don't you know, look at the moon, don't look at the finger. Mm-hmm. And I use that in many ways of looking at spirituality versus religion and all these things. And art. And art, exactly. So, but, but that is, uh, how do I articulate this? It's, um, your art is by design.

Um, help people, support people, guide people to feel, you know, a felt experience of something. Right. The truth that you experience. And often if it is done well, it's beautiful. If it's not done well, then it's cliche. Right? So, um, how do you, like, how do you do that because [00:09:00] Right. Like, how do you use words in the most simplistic way to get people to feel a particular

way?

[00:09:06] Max: Hmm. I think one of the reasons I've been able to be successful at that, um, is I think I have a very good, I think I have a very good sense of, or want self-awareness. And I'm very good at not kind of eating my own bullshit. Um, like I have a good sense when I've written something. Do I like this? Cause I wrote it like, do I like this cuz like it just came out and expresses what I'm thinking.

[00:09:33] CK: Well, another person who doesn't know me, who's living their totally their own experience, like their own world, so doesn't know my inspiration for this, where it's coming from, what it means to me. Are they gonna f are they really gonna feel like, are they really gonna feel what I'm pointing at? And in some ways like that is counter to what I was talking about of an artist's role of just like expressing and letting it fall wherever it [00:10:00] does.

And I sort of think there are two different forms of, of art. One, which is just like that pure expression, which is absolutely beautiful. And another where is like, hey, I'm, I'm actually, I'm making this not for me, but for you. Like I'm trying to guide you and to handhold here, like in the most beautiful way possible to show you this truth that I discovered that I want you to see.

Cuz it's amazing and I wanna share it with you. And I think when it's the latter. Than having a deep sense of self-awareness and like, just being really prone to how easy it is to trick ourselves into believing something. Is it when it's not it, and trying to say like, hunt is like, does that do it? Does that really guide them to this light that I'm trying to show?

Or are they not gonna understand or are they gonna, you know, be turned off by this phrasing? And so I think that, and you know, and this show does have a lot of that, that handholding. I think who I've become since writing it, is much more interested and attached to, uh, [00:11:00] just like wanting to express without need for any sort of approval or anything, or being understood.

And, um, I don't know that, as I say that out loud, I, I do, I want people to, to see that truth in that light. Um, I guess I'm less interested than I used to be in like, altering truth in any way, shape, or form so that others get it. So as long as it is deeply true to me, then I feel it is done compared to how when I made that show, I think I was much more interested in, let me make sure that they're really getting what I'm putting down.

So

I'm gonna dive into this sort of the creative process. So what I'm hearing you say is the ability to switch hats from expressing Max's point of view, and also to look at a, I guess, you know, producer's point of view. You know, how does this serve the audience perspective? How, okay, so do you switch back and forth in the process, or you just in the beginning focus more on, uh, [00:12:00] Max's truth to the best of his ability and then as, as you put together the show and put on the producer view?

You know, so the, to you, you're looking at Max as a performer rather you. Uh, like tell us a little bit about how you switch to hat.

[00:12:15] Max: Yep. As I look back on it, um, I think the phases thinking is helpful cuz in when it's first coming through in the inspired moment, it's not filtering at all. The only filter is you or is me, is like the, it's coming.

Th the person it's coming through is the filter and just trying to get whatever inspiration is coming, get it out, like put it on a page, on the canvas, on whatever your art form is, um, and just like get it out, whatever is there, get all of it is sort of the first phase. Um, often because that feels so sacred to me.

It's very, I will and resistant to editing that purity when it comes out. Um, usually I will like, I really have to be de like, feel in my bones that something is really better to make a change to that [00:13:00] first, to that first purity. And so that's in the initial kind of inspiration and creative process. And then as I'm starting to craft it into a piece, There is more of that hat of like, are people gonna get this?

Um, and then I'm weighing that like resistance to changing the purity of what came out with, is that gonna land for people? How could I say this differently? Is this excessive? Does this belong in this poem? Or a different poem starting to put on that, um, that hat in the editing process and yeah, in the production of the full show, there was a deep care and concern for what people get it, especially with poetry.

You know, what an hour of poetry, what I'm gonna sit through an hour of poetry. I wanted to make sure that like, had lots of laughs and funny moments and like things that really made it fun to watch and engaging. Cause I really cared about whether people were taking it in or not for this show. Um, and so yeah, I would say the, the first part of the process, like the only filter being the person that you are or for me anyway, the person that I am.

And then once I'm starting to present it for how it's going to be [00:14:00] received by others is where I start looking at that other piece, that producer hat.

[00:14:04] CK: So I was watching Joe Rogan talking about the standup comedy, how they basically craft, I think it was a conversation between Joe Rogan and I think Dave Chappelle.

I don't remember exactly who, but it was Joe Rogan for sure. He was talking about the act of putting together a comedy special and, and he said it was a experience co-creating with the audience cuz you're grasping at something and then based on how the audience respond, then they can navigate and optimize for laughs.

Right? Because the co-creating with the audience accordingly. So what I'm hearing you say, how that differs from, let's say a poet poetry show is, the poetry show is more personal. More naked because you're really showing, uh, uh, an internal perspective and [00:15:00] then you craft around the performance audience response aspect of it.

Am I projecting too much or can you maybe, um, make, make a comparison, but

[00:15:08] Max: there's a lot of similarities there? Um, yeah, I think it's like, I love standup comedy and I think there are similarities. Um, I think places where I'd say there are differences is that you, like if it felt like if some, again, my laughs are not my barometer one laughs are so much fun.

I lo getting laughs feels so good on stage. It's just like such a wonderful feeling to be standing on a stage and get laughs. I get how standup comics get addicted to this and dedicate their lives to that world. It's fantastic. Um, and, and yeah, for me, like my barometer in the way they're looking at laughs is like, Yeah, like, are they here with me?

Like, are they really taking in what I'm saying? And to me, laughter is one vehicle that allows that to happen more easily. Um, [00:16:00] tears are another, and just like silence is another vehicle where I'm like, okay, if, if I can hear a pin drop, then I've really got them at this point. And what I would, you know, shape or shift in a show would be if I feel like I'm loo if there's a sense on stage, like, is a tension raptured in this moment?

And if it's not, then it is possible that I would reorder things or be like, okay, this poem is too long. Maybe it shouldn't go in this, uh, in this spot. I like, I will rarely just like cut something down or in half to like, to make it work for the show. It feels like hurting a baby. Um, but it's, uh, but I will shift order or remove a poem and add a different, a different one or things like that cuz the shows themselves don't feel like one cohesive thing, not yet anyway.

Maybe the next one will, um, they feel like a combination of different poems, each of which feels. Important to me.

[00:16:50] CK: Yeah. To, to me it's a, it's a variety show. Right. And I also love that you brought, um, performances, uh, in it. [00:17:00] So I, I've never seen anyone perform flow slash poetry and box at the same time. One, I'm impressed that you can actually do that, and two, that you didn't lose breath I like, and then yeah, so, so I'm really impressed how you're able to bring in different modalities, whether it's, uh, dance or, you know, costumes or, uh, digital, you know, visuals as a way to help you articulate the, again, the, the felt experience that you had inside.

[00:17:33] Max: Thanks, man. I appreciate that. Yeah. Was there a specific poem that resonated with you most? Out of the, out of the. Um,

[00:17:41] CK: well the, the one you, you talked about your mom and, and porn and that, that stands out because that was really funny. It was very personal and you made that experience of exploring sexuality through porn.

Um, very [00:18:00] relatable cuz I mean, I don't know how women are, but we're all men. Like that's part of our growth experience in modern days today. So that was very, very relatable. Yeah. But, but there were other, uh, nuanced ones. I think it was the circle, uh, actually watch a lot of your, uh, pieces, so I don't remember exactly out, you know, which is which.

Sure. It's all good. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't remember that, but, but I would say the circle one was very, um, was very beautiful. You know about, about loss and, um, all those things.

[00:18:37] Max: Um, yeah, the porn one is a reflection on my relationship with porn in front of my mom in the audience, which is a fun little, just hearing people listen might be like, you know, your mom and porn be like, huh, what is, what is that about?

Um, but is a reflection on my relationship with porn. And I performed it in front of my mom, which is just always funny for folks. How,

[00:18:57] CK: how has, because to me, [00:19:00] being a poet is even more naked than, say, a stand standup comic cuz Standup comic, yes, it is personal and they're optimizing for laughs. So they don't really, in my mind, don't care about, um, how personal it gets.

Is, is more about the punchline, right? Because they, they know it's a, it is a made up character. It's not real. When De Chappelle talking about you. Puss or whatever, or infidelity your thoughts. These are just avatars or character that he's created on stage Hmm. To, to optimize for our laugh. But in your case, it's highly personal.

Hmm. So can you share with us a lot, a little bit about, um, the transformation that you experience having to go from, you know, working for VA medias, uh, digital strategists, all the way to, you know, being a artist who just shares everything, the most intimate part about [00:20:00] oneself to the world. Like, tell us a little bit about that transformation.

[00:20:05] Max: Yeah. It comes up for me, as you say that is, they're definitely, especially in my, you know, teens and twenties, um, I think like there was a, especially early twenties. Yeah. Like real, a fear of like, Being genuinely vulnerable. I might like being performatively vulnerable if I knew it was gonna be received well.

But being generally genu, genuinely vulnerable. And I think one thing that, and I, you know, in Vayner Media, the in, when I used to work in the social media world, I was still kind of passionate about communication and getting ideas across. That was always interesting to me. But to, I think one thing that poetry gave me was a way of revealing myself in a way that felt the most true and in ways that it was really landing for people.

And I felt really seen through this craft and through this process, and that was deeply rewarding, that I could convey things that [00:21:00] felt deeply true and important to me and have them land and resonate in others. That was a big part of the, I think, the fuel and appeal that kept me going and made me so dedicated to.

To this work. Um, and yeah, there is like a, for sure there's like a nakedness and vulnerability to getting on stage and, and doing this stuff. Um, and you know, it's, it's an interesting observation that like, yeah, comedians are kind of doing, there's like a, a focus on the punchline that is a little bit different than, than sh just like sharing truth.

Also, you know, I love Chappelle so much and he, like, that man is a truth teller. What he's doing up on stage there is telling truth and comedy poetry both like, yeah, they help the medicine go down. It's like, it's so much easier to hear, talk about politics or about any sort of important issues when we're laughing or arting about it compared to just the conversation.

And in many ways, I think the most vulnerable thing would be just to like, to get up on stage and [00:22:00] just talk without rhyme or laugh. Um, you know, I'm, I'm getting ready to release a book of poems, which feels much more vulnerable to me than. On stage, because also, like I know when I get on stage that people are going to like it.

Like I've done this now long enough and yeah, I'm confident enough in the work, like as I do that it's, I've felt people light up so many times that I know that that's going to feel a positive response from the audience. It's very rare that that's not the case. Um, and it's usually I feel like I'm in some loud room where there's so much other stuff going on that it just feels like this isn't a good environment for poetry and why are we all doing this?

Um, but in general, I know how people are gonna receive it or have a good sense of generally what it's gonna feel like performing poetry on stage, but to write poems in a book and she'd be like, here are some thoughts, like here are some feelings, here are some poems, some things that are personal to me that feels scarier than getting on stage.

Um, oh,

[00:22:59] CK: [00:23:00] interesting. Yeah. Well, okay, so, so let's talk about that for a moment. Okay. So, Again, I'll use standup comedians as a, as an example because they, um, their process, my understanding is they go to different comedy clubs, test out their material based on the crowd response. They adjust accordingly and, and really navigate and optimize for that laughter per unit time.

Right. So then they can eventually assemble it all together to a greater piece. So that's a co-creative process. Hmm. Um, how do you assemble your final show? Do you perform in small venues? Again, similar process. And then you're like, oh, this is good. Let me tweak in. And then you optimize for presence, right?

The rapture in know per unit time and then put it together. This, I'm a, I'm an engineer by trace. Cool. Yeah. So, so, so this is how

[00:23:58] Max: I think about things. Um, and yeah, I'm [00:24:00] thinking out la out loud of like, yeah, like I wonder, you know, comics I'm sure are balancing between optimal laughs and the thing they want to say on stage.

So there's like a balance of that, right? It's not like a pure what gets the laugh most laughs formula. I bet. Um, and. Yeah, that is like, I'm all, I'm jealous of standup comics that there are so many venues and places that are like good places to practice and try out sets and material. Um, that's a rare thing for poets.

Like there is, you know, there are poetry clubs and things like that, but to have like a full set in the way that I do a similar set, which is kind of like what standup comics do, there aren't that many just like vent, unless I'm making it myself and inviting people myself for like, that amount of time that I wanna test and practice things.

Those environments don't really exist. So it's been in the shows themselves that I'm testing things out and feeling and yeah, if I had to pick what was I optimizing for, it would be, yeah, like rapture, I'd like your word rapture there. Um, and that presence is what I'm looking for is like, Hey, are [00:25:00] we, are you with me from start to finish?

And if there are places where I feel like I'm losing people consistently, then I probably want to make a change, um, in terms of crafting the whole show together. Um, and also I'm really curious in my, so I'm so excited to have released the show, getting ready to release a couple short films in this book.

It feels like wiping the slate clean to create a new chapter to create the next one. And I am curious if I will care as much about that in the next show because I think I am just at a place in my own creative life where I'm much more interested in, Hey, let me get people together and say what I want to say and deliver what I want to deliver.

As I say it out loud, of course I'm gonna care about how it's received or like that people get it. So I imagine there'll still be threads. I just think that that consumed me once, like I was obsessed with like, is it delivering? And I think so much so that it got in the way of, um, of sometimes my own expression of truth, and I'm excited to create with the scales of that balance to it shifted.[00:26:00]

[00:26:00] CK: How do you strike that line between, because. Again, a lot of respect for poets because you're really pouring the inner most raw experience in the world. And how do you also not letting it affect you, right? Because I actually have, um, a lot of artist friends who, um, it's a very, very vulnerable place. You need to expose your heart and at the same time not letting other people's opinion or, or, or indifference impact you.

So how do you cultivate that resilience? I guess that's the be the best world or, or equanimity to go after it over and over again. You know, being more and more raw and, and at the same time, not not being impacted by, you know, outside opinions.

[00:26:57] Max: For me, I think it's less about, [00:27:00] uh, trying to protect myself from the hurt.

And more about being comfortable in the hurt. Like, so not trying to guard so that other people's opinions or thoughts won't hurt me, but rather to let them hurt me, feel the hurt, and then move through that and come out on the other side and know that like, okay, I was hurt and I am not defined by this hurt.

And how do I want to take the information of that hurt with me and choose from an internally driven place. And so, you know, like you get the one negative comment on a thread like it, sometimes you focus on it and like it does get to you. Um, but I think my intention is to not try and be like, uh, I'm not gonna let it get to me.

No, no, no, it doesn't matter. That's stupid. But like, ah, man, I wish they got it. Like, I wish they connected with this. This did not resonate. That's what they thought. Okay, that's one person and I don't like the way that felt. And we feel [00:28:00] that and keep moving.

[00:28:02] CK: Okay. So it's a very rational process. Uh, uh, I'll make it personal.

So, so for me, cuz I, I do podcasts and, you know, I do TikTok videos and share my thoughts and so forth. And, and that's the, the ability that I'm, the, the skill that I'm honing in my myself and the way I do it today is if I feel a particular charge of, so, I can actually take that charge into my meditation practice as a way to neutralize whatever that that is.

Hmm. And that, to me was the fastest way to, I suppose, um, neutralize it. Yeah. Rather than suppress it, ignore it, overcome it, or rationalize it. Ah, they're just stupid, or whatever, whatever the, the thought is. So that works for me. So I don't want to seem like I'm focusing on processing, but I, but I am curious about how do you

[00:28:54] Max: process that so often?

Like, I do plenty of beating the crap out of pillows and [00:29:00] rage, stuff like that, of processing anger. Like, okay. Just when I like crying, letting myself really cry, like celebration of crying. Like really letting that, the feelings in and letting it be overwhelming, like, not exaggerating it so much, hyping it up, but like, no, really, like not trying to diminish this emotion as it's here.

I have like, Frequent practices of that. Um, and I would say that's, that's most of my process around how I'm processing the difficult emotions. Mm-hmm. And yeah, as an artist, I just like ex expressing, feeling something and express, letting it literally move through me. Um, and then trusting myself to find the center on the other side.

And so, I mean, it's something I'm doing all of the time. I'm not raging and screaming and crying all the time, but letting myself feel an emotion, not diminishing that emotion, like really letting it be. And then they're more, you know, some environments are more conducive to expression [00:30:00] of those emotions than others.

Um, but yeah. And also like I've, I have come to surround myself with people who are really comfortable with that. Like, if I'm crying and someone hands me a tissue, like that's, I'm often like, Please don't do that. And like, please don't, like, please don't like I, there's some part like maybe you're wanting to help and that's great, but oftentimes people are handing a tissue of like, oh, you're crying.

We need to diminish the sadness. Like, you know, it's, it's okay man, don't cry. Um, and a tissue may be a silly example, but if you, if you are very, when you're very comfortable with your own sadness and anger, you notice how uncomfortable other people are with your and their own sadness and anger. And because it's hard to fully be with those emotions, I really value, um, yeah.

I value people who are open to that and I value like the difficulty and courage it takes to like really own those and it's not [00:31:00] easy in a lot of environments. Yeah.

[00:31:02] CK: What I'm getting from where you said is, um, emotional mastery is about feeling it fully. Whatever that process is, you know, to allow the time to feel it fully, fully.

And, uh, and I really appreciate you pointing to that. Hmm, thank you. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, since you came from the world of digital media, do you use digital media as a way to, cuz you, you don't always have a room, let's say, right? You don't always have a menu. Uh, uh, not menu, a venue. So, so do you use digital media as a way to test material?

That's the way I'm using it. I'm curious to know if you use digital media as a way to, you know, test materials and see how people resonate and so forth. I

[00:31:48] Max: haven't used it that way thus far. I'm actually, I'm curious about your experience with that of, um, to me, I so don't trust the, this Scott likes or [00:32:00] engagements or shares or like process.

That if I can't feel how something resonated or didn't, I don't feel like I know how it went. Um, and that's cool. You're using it to test material. How do you go about that process? Um,

[00:32:15] CK: let's say from our conversation from with Max in idea came, let's just use what you just shared, like feeling it fully as the atomic unit of emotional mastery.

Let's just say that's the theme I wanted to share. Okay. I would write something up, perhaps a rough draft before developing to a full thing and then just share on TikTok and see how people respond. And, and you are right, it is not the, it's still a proxy, right? It's not, cuz I don't really know how they receive it.

Is it just a, like, is it some emotional thing? Is it just views, is it just number of share? But to me it's still something. It's better than nothing. Hmm. And, and as I'm delivering it, [00:33:00] uh, I'm gonna share this publicly, now. I listen to my own stuff. Mm-hmm. Like, how do, how does that make me feel as a, as a viewer?

And so that's another data, uh, the data, the subjective data of delivering it, the subjective data of receiving it, and also some, some numbers of, you know, how this helps people or so forth. That's the limitation of digital media.

[00:33:24] Max: Um, I would love to figure out a way that I felt good about doing that myself.

Um, thus far for me, um, I feel, I feel the right word. I perceive such a difference between like the actual felt sense of taking something in and what we receive as content creators on the other side of it. That feels so disconnected from the sharing and sharing of the message that it's so hard for me to engage frequently with these mediums.[00:34:00]

Um, that's just like true for me. I, I hear you. I'm like, oh, this is cool that you have a process around that that feels good for you. I'm jealous of that. And jealousy, often appointing is something that we want. Um, and the it's cuz yeah, for me of like even just like, okay, like the way you identified, okay, there's a kernel that's a kernel I wanna share, I'm gonna write up a thing and I'm gonna share it.

Like, in my mind I'm like, oh, like so much energy loss in the transfer of medium, like throughout that. And then the biggest energy loss is the one where we put it into this little fricking box and send it out the other way with so much like energy loss of the thing I'm trying to communicate. And honestly, Steven just talking to you here has been insightful for me of recognizing where I'm at, just in that process of caring about the delivery of the original energy.

Um, And I think as I'm just talking here with you, I think it is true for me that I have, I care so much less about, um, what other people think of [00:35:00] me or think of what I'm saying than they used to. And I do care tremendously that the full energy transmission has reached. Whether you take it or not, it's not for me to decide.

I really want you to get the, to feel the fullness of what I'm expressing. And it feels really hard for me to actually do that on social media. The point of making these films in such high production of that I have is to try to keep that full energy transfer into this ecosystem and the ease at which you just described a colonel, I'm gonna write something up about that and I'm gonna talk about it and I'm gonna share it.

Like, oh, I crave that ease. And there's also something about it for me that doesn't feel like. The full transmission of energy that I want to give. And also it's so totally okay that you and I are different and now we go about this. Um, I'm just noticing that as I hear you reflect.

[00:35:53] CK: So, uh, how do I articulate this?

So there's an idea of the artist [00:36:00] approach and the engineer approach. Mm-hmm. The engineer approach is of mvp. Right. Minimal viable product. Throw it out there, how useful it is, and then you hone it, hone it, hone it to eventually craft into something. Mm-hmm. Whereas an artist, you protect fragility of an idea, you nurture it, you wanna develop it fully.

And then once you feel like it's ready, another question I want to ask you, how do you know it's ready? Uh, then you release it to, to the world. And that's my experience of how artists typically approach, um, pros and cons in both, uh, the, the pros of the engineer approach is you get feedback. You know, more frequently of how useful this thing is, this utility, this tool, this experience is, and, and the, the, the pros of the artist approaches, you protect the integrity of the idea and develop fully.

Um, but it also comes with the cons as well, cuz you don't have that [00:37:00] feedback loop of how it actually make how valuable, how, how useful a practical it is for the, for the receiver. And

[00:37:08] Max: I love the, the focus on value. Like, I think you nailed it of like, uh, because yeah, it, I think art is inherently not about value.

It's inherently so paradox it is so valuable and inherently not about value. Um, of like, I think if we're, when we're so caught in, like in be specific.

If we take the engineer's approach with our art, I think we end up creating something that other people wanted, but not necessarily our expression in our art. And I think one of the roles of art in society is to stay true to that. Like, no, here's the transmit here, this thing. [00:38:00] And then also, frankly, to feel the pain of people didn't get it.

People didn't get, get the thing that I transmitted. No, I didn't wanna do it this way where I tested it out with people. And that's not to say that feedback isn't helpful or important, but a lot of great artists and art teachers will talk about trying to not take in feedback too early in the process.

Mm-hmm. Cause it is so, you know, it starts to get in and get in the way of what we're trying to do as artists. Um mm-hmm. And yeah, value is an interesting, is an interesting concept with, uh, you know, with our. It reminds me of a piece actually that you might like, you wanna hear one? Yeah, let's do it. Um, so it was about like, as I was thinking about value and how much this work means to me, and also thinking I have battles with self-worth and self-doubt.

This is sort of older now. I'll have to try to remember it and get in touch with that head headspace. Um, but [00:39:00] yeah, I was constantly wondering if I was worthy of following my heart, of worthy of pursuing my art, wondering if my wording was worthy, worried. I'm not worthy of working on creating beauty. I am constantly wondering if I am creating any beauty, if there's any substance to these fleeting words, anything.

It's really worth anything that changes after people hear my work. And there's been no change as far as the eye is concerned. So I'm concerned that at the end, my life's work won't have been worth anything. I'm afraid the world would be a better place if I replace the time I spend on stage with walking out into the streets and doing literally anything.

Do words matter when they don't make matter? Do ideas need to take matter to matter? Cuz to make matters worse, I don't wanna be out there. I wanna be here sharing words that seem to so very quickly fade. My art doesn't exist in physical, tangible space. It comes and then it goes away until we're left with this [00:40:00] nothingness, emptiness, consciousness that I so desperately want to lift.

But when I look around at this, it won't look any different than when I started, unless we are different than when I started and we won't look any different as far as the eye is concerned. So I'm concerned that none of this matters. Then again, do we matter? Nothing but this miraculous accumulation of matter, miraculous organization of matter, seeing matter being matter, breathing matter.

We can't actually make matter, but we can make matter matter. We can turn matter into things that matter. We can give matter value. Are these words valuable? Is that measured in dollars and cents? I guess logically, maybe that makes sense, but if we were observed by aliens, they'd probably wonder why we spend so much time and money on things that don't matter.

They'd be like, why don't you value value for its value? Why not create a [00:41:00] world where value is actually built on your values? Planet Earth can be the thing you call heaven with an adjustment to your attitudes. Isn't that a beautiful idea? And isn't it something that an idea can be beautiful and maybe that's enough?

I want so badly for it to be enough. For what I create in hearts and minds and souls to be enough, I feel like I'm hurling stones into this giant pool of consciousness, and I finish each poem with a splash, and for a moment there's a ripple over. There's vast pool of thoughts that we've collectively amassed and then it fades as ripples do without a care for me or you.

That stillness is resumed and as I gaze at this beautiful natural view, can't help but think it looks the same as it was before I threw, and I know the lake has my stones in it now, but if I'm being [00:42:00] brutally honest with myself, is that change? Does that matter? And no matter how much time I spend crafting the perfect lines, it won't stop my time on this earth from its inevitable decline.

Since birth, I have been slowly dying, losing my arm, wrestling match with father time. And it might look like I have my shit together as far as the eye is concerned, but I'm concerned that I'm wasting the only thing that matters, that I'll look back from my deathbed knowing deep down that it didn't matter, that I'll return to the earth, nothing but mere matter without having made any more than a ripple, at least as far as the eye is concerned.

And so that was a piece I wrote probably about four years ago, and it was like born out of my relationship with self-doubt. Like really wanting these work to matter, to measure the success of people getting it. Like what is the value? And I think today, I'm so confident in the ripple. Like in that the way that we touch each other [00:43:00] of like has this ongoing impact in ways that are, that, you know, we will not see in our lifetime.

The Lin Manuel Marin Miranda quote, I love of like legacy. What is the legacy planting seeds in a garden we never get to see. And it's like, yes, the garden for all of us. And I'm so confident in the ripple of sharing truth and self-expression and like love in its fullest form without needing to see the outcome that I am a zealot for trying to help others who care to do the same.

[00:43:29] CK: Mm. So many places I can. Yeah. Over your heart I can respond to this. So there's a lot of visuals that comes to mind. Um, I'm gonna quote two people. So one of my guests is Jeff Spencer. He is known as the cornerman for the likes of Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong Bono. And he said this quote, I really landed for me.

He said, there's only one of you in all of eternity. [00:44:00] Not before, not after. There's only one. And, and I'm gonna quote my friend Nick, laborer, another guest. He said, life is a lot like a comet flying through empty space. What we see is the, all the ice crystals of the comet. So what you just share is a little bit of that ice crystals that you share and that only you max can never made.

And that's beautiful and that's valuable in itself because there's only one max in all of eternity. So that's what I got in what you should deliver. Thank you so much.

[00:44:41] Max: Yeah. Thanks for that reflection. Yeah.

[00:44:45] CK: I mean, press actually how you can just, you know, Like, Hey, ed did this four years ago. Here it is, bam.

In the moment. That's beautiful. That's awesome. Thanks Pam. Uh, was it a home skill to [00:45:00] be able to memorize or is it ally Jason Silva, like improvisation in the moment? Like how do you

[00:45:09] Max: It's often, it's funny, I was on, we talked a little bit about psychedelics. I was on mushroom once and a friend's friend asked me to share a poem and I was so clear.

I was like, oh, I need to find it. Like, I'm looking around, like I'm looking around in my brain to find that poem cuz if I can find the beginning. Then it's like, then it, it flows from there. But I have to find the place it starts and then once it does it's, you know, was so core to me at some time where I was writing it and then writing it, going back over it, editing things, changing it where you repeat it so many times that the memorization comes a little bit more easily for me, much easier for me to memorize something I've written than something I haven't written.

Um, just like in me, you know? And, uh, and then yeah, often in the shower I would just like go through it and then find the places where I'd be like, oh no, I think that's not quite right. And then return to the [00:46:00] text and do the parts that are hard over and over again. But I'm far more likely to forget like an entire stands there, like paragraph than I am like one word.

Cuz once I'm in it, there's like a rhyme and rhythm to it. And it's a, it's like a flow and a thread that if I can find the beginning, then I mostly have the whole. Wow. So,

[00:46:19] CK: uh, I'm jealous. Number one.

[00:46:23] Max: So we can be jealous of each other in these small,

[00:46:25] CK: yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, it's a particular skill, right?

If I really want it, I can probably hone my memorization skills, but that's an excuse that I have. Like, ah, I don't need to memorize it. I just get the concept and flow in the moment, kind of a guy, right? Mm-hmm. So, uh, I'm big on capturing ideas because I'm all about mental mastery. So capturing ideas, curating it, processing, and synthesizing it, eventually have it come out.

That's my mental process. How do you. Manage the [00:47:00] content of the brilliance that just flow your way all the time? All the time. All the time. Do you take a notebook? Do you put in Rome research? Do you, you know, use, uh, what's his name? Uh, Ryan Holiday note card system. Like how do you,

[00:47:14] Max: um, straight up Apple notes on my phone, pull it out and I've forgot this big thing of disorganized notes.

And in some ways I could probably use more organizations and structures in my life. And the first thing that comes to mind when you ask, when we talk about capturing ideas is that I'm more interested in setting ideas free. Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, yeah, I have a big resistance, just structure. Like I've got some rebellion against structure in me of want, like feeling like sometimes when I structure things I make them small.

Mm-hmm. And really wanting to, to unleash these things that feel so important to me and to give them their fullness. And I have written, you might find this interesting of. I [00:48:00] probably, over the course of being a poet, I've probably written three or four apologies to creativity. Mm. Like, and those apologies were like being like, I'm sorry that I, that I made this about me.

Like I'm sorry. And it's, I did it again. It's then as it happened again, like I did it again, I apologized and then I did it again, which is a personal like scar and point for me if I really do not like empty apologies, like when someone, when I apologize, I really want to make sure that I change the behavior.

I try to only apologize if I will not do the same thing again, otherwise I will not apologize. And yeah, noticing that time after time that I feel these sparks and this aliveness and then I try to craft it and structure it into something that is valuable for Max my career, my whatever, as opposed to setting it free and.

So much beauty is just in like, the freedom of it. And yet it's also so hard for me to like stay [00:49:00] true to that and remember that because Max has a big old ego too. And as that thing gets in the way and tries to make it about me, um mm-hmm. And so I've, yeah, I've written several apologies to it for trying to capture and organizing with a thing like, Rome is not making it about you, that's organizing.

But I just do have a, a resistance to to structure as opposed to letting it be whatever it wants to be without trying to make it anything, if that makes sense. It does.

[00:49:30] CK: So do you just keep all these ideas flowing in your mind or do you know, like, so you have no process of like, well let's get

[00:49:42] Max: down from bride for a poem for like writing a poem?

Yeah. Well, yeah. So when the poem starts, I pull out the notepad. Put it down and then as much of it as I can get there in that note. And then I will revisit that note. But I do not have, and you know, and then every once in a while [00:50:00] where I'm like, oh, is there another show here? Maybe then like a Word doc or something like that of just like, okay, maybe these ones together and then it turns into a script and then might move things around.

Um, but you know, for this show, I never had a script until I had to turn it into a film. Like, which then it was like, oh, we need a script. It was, yeah, I guess it was sort of all in my head. I just had the bullet points of Insanity, Luca, politics poem, Barbara poem. Um, like I had a list of nine and that was the outline of the show.

And then I would have all the poems, you know, they were written down on notes somewhere, but they weren't all in one. Mm-hmm. And frankly, like I could probably use some help with organization. I mean,

[00:50:45] CK: that's why you had that director, right? That helped you curate like, Hey, move this here, move this there,

[00:50:51] Max: whatever.

Erin, Erin is wonderful. Uh, she's a friend and, um, and incredibly talented creative person. And I also, and it's interesting within like the, when is it [00:51:00] time to release, you asked about that. I, I have been hoarding too much, been holding onto poetry and different creativity. This book being from, you know, some of it from years and years ago, this, these short films, I've been holding them for a while and I wanna get better at like releasing things as they move through.

I also am wanting to hire someone whose job it is to just like, literally just help these pieces get to the world in whatever form like, I would pay them monthly, but with no, like, monetary incentive of where these things go. Just like, are you helping these ideas get out to the world? That process is very challenging for me.

And if there was somebody who's just really good at that, I would love to work with that person. Um, awesome, awesome.

[00:51:44] CK: Um, I wanna share Jason Silva's creative process. Do you know who that is?

[00:51:48] Max: Yeah. We shared stage once in Mexico. Awesome.

[00:51:51] CK: Great. I I love to hear your thoughts. Uh, you know about Jason's work, et cetera.

Sova, uh, I met him in Burning Man and don't, you're a burner, right? [00:52:00] Perfect. How many times? How way? Four. Amazing. Great. So I met him and then I'm a fan and then I'm in awe of his ability to channel, to improvise whatever way you call. Um, and I asked him about my, about his creative process. I was like, oh, okay, do you just walk around all day and be able to channel?

He is like, no. Like, it's actually, takes him a lot of creative energy to do it. So he shared with me, um, that he would, he's a fan of cannabis, so he'll fix, he would, he would, you know, taking a fixed amount of cannabis and then put himself in that creative peak state and go to an environment like Burning Man or some beautiful nature or places like that.

And then just, um, and then allow him to just channel in the moment. And then, so the stuff that we see online is the capture moment of his peak creative state. And I don't know h how or what he performed [00:53:00] on, let's say the TED stage as an example. I don't know if it's prepared or is purely improvised. I don't know.

But just like that's his priming, uh, experience. To be able to do those kind of performance. And, and he always has audio recording and then he always has a, a, a camera person with him ala you know, Gary V. There you go. Yeah. Whatever he is. Inspire. Hey, capture it. Let's go. So that's, that's how he does his stuff.

[00:53:26] Max: I gotta say, I really do, I respect people who have built systems around themselves that way of like where, okay, here's the ways that I'm most creative, or most like where it flows and then have built, whether it's a camera person or like built the structures in their lives or the, um, the, like the support systems in their lives to help channel what feels most important to them.

And that's something that I, yeah, I'm in the process of. And I appreciate when people have done that well.

[00:53:54] CK: So you had mentioned writing apology letters to, [00:54:00] uh, creativity. That reminds me of, uh, Elizabeth Gilbert's TED Talk around creativity. She essentially look at creativity through a, a human, like, you know, sweeping her temple, showing up at nine o'clock and then the muse will visit her effectively.

That's, that's her language. Right. So do you, what are your ways to cultivate a closer relationship, a devotional relationship to creativity? Hmm.

[00:54:31] Max: Um, one, you've mentioned a whole bunch of people on this podcast that I just love from Chappelle to Elizabeth Gilbert of just like those Elizabeth Gilbert. I would probably fanboy out if I ever saw in person, was one of the few people I would really just lose my mind for.

I think she's so brilliant on the way she talks about this stuff. Um, and the Rick Rubin book is also very much worth taking on. If you haven't, uh, if you haven't done that as well. And some ways I do it for myself, um, are. [00:55:00] A sort of artist prayer as I get, as I sit down to write in the moments that aren't purely inspired and just being like, thank you for the opportunity to show up for you today.

Like, I love you and like just thank you for the opportunity to be here at all. Um, and yeah, I have found that creativity most visits me when I'm taking care of me. It's like a, it's a very symbiotic relationship that the more that I am taking care of myself and like health and spaciousness and rest like that is when creativity is most likely to visit.

And so, um, yeah, like I, I believe like love, art, God are all forms of the same thread and that when I'm loving myself and so like feeling touch, getting in touch with my intuition, what wants to happen right now, like trying to live artfully or live. In touch with that like inner [00:56:00] voice that might not be about logic or reason.

That's one way I would say that I like try to stay devoted to that force to really make sure that it knows it is in charge of my life. Beautiful.

[00:56:13] CK: So I, I hear that there is, so one thing I want to distinguish for people who are watching, there's a difference between being committed to something, to being devotional, to something.

Being committed is, I am committed to the craft, right? And being devotional to something is I'm offering my vessel, my energy, my bandwidth as a gift to whoever, you know, I'm devoted to. So what I'm hearing is there's a flavor of devotion to like, this is, yes, I'm committed to my craft and I'm devoted to, to you creativity.

[00:56:50] Max: And one way that shows up is, uh, I mean, I'd say in every choice that I make, I have gotten pretty good at checking in with intuition, just [00:57:00] like stopping at, like checking what's happening right now, what's going on in my body. Like sometimes literally asking the question in my head like, like what wants to happen?

Like what is here? Getting pretty good at differentiating? Well, that's anxiety talking, that's fear talking. That's not intuition. That's, uh, like, and then asking when I hear a voice is that intuition, listening to what happens from that too. Um, but often the answer I get will not be something that makes sense or is logical or like fits to the mind and I abide by it without question.

I am yeah, truly devotional to that voice when it speaks. And that is one way that I really show up for, for, I would say for creativity, for love, for God, for art, for whatever we want to call it.

[00:57:50] CK: So I wanna make it personal now. So for me, I came from the world of science, right? If it doesn't, I'm measurable, there's no data.

Mm-hmm. It doesn't exist. I don't [00:58:00] believe it. I dismiss it. So for any decades, I dismiss the likes of feelings, emotions, body sensations. So what are those? It's not important, you know, it's focus on the mind, the content. And then the more I do this type of work, and the more I realize like, oh, they're actually all important in my life.

And these days I optimize, uh, optimize that work, but I listen for joy. What does joy want me to do in this moment? You know, even, even if it does, it's not logical. It doesn't really make sense. And that's, that's what I follow. So for you, from coming from digital media, right, it's all about strategies and the mind and what's logical and markets and all these things to being devoted to.

Creativity and listen to your intuition. How did you cultivate this faith, this trust in [00:59:00] this more, you know what I mean? Does that make sense?

[00:59:04] Max: Does that make Yeah, my, to put a single word on it would, would be love. What does love want right now? Um, for me, and I'd say the way that that first showed its head or not first, where I first paid the most attention to it, it's probably been shown its head for a way longer than Si Little Max has noticed.

Um, uh, yeah, it was a, a very big, intense, beautiful love with this woman named Ilana. And in a way that in the community that I was in, that was, she was dating a friend of mine and I tried my absolute best to be as respectful as I could for all that and communicating things to parties and all of those things.

But like there was just something exploding out of my being that was not. Gonna be stopped. And, um, and then eventually, like I tried to not tell her for a long time, and then eventually that just wasn't [01:00:00] gonna happen. Like, and the destruction in my own life that needed to come from expressing how I was feeling was such a tremendous wave of like, relief and goodness and so clearly on obviously my path.

Um, I was pr, I was basically ostracized from that community for doing so, and I kept looking for ways like, I must, everyone's so mad I must be wrong. Like, I must have done something wrong. Like I must have messed up. Like I must, like where, let me find the way that I could have done this better. Or like, that I could have done this cleaner or been more l like I must be fi missing something.

And then after a while, like I just like went to this deep question of like, should I have not told her? Like, should I have just kept this to myself and like gone on my way and just like, And then I really tried to be with that question. I started laughing hysterically of like, that's just not love. Like that's just not loving anyone, myself, her, [01:01:00] my friend.

That's not it. And it was through that process, that was probably the first and biggest time that something that felt so deeply true and loving in my intuition, which went against the norms of my world at the time. And that was probably the, the one of the biggest times that I just trusted it and leapt for it.

And then since then I have noticed it in much smaller ways and just honored that. And I've gotten enough reps in listening just being like, okay, that might not make sense or seem like what is wanted from me, from the outside and I'm gonna listen to it. And basically, I honestly can't think of a single time where trusting my intuition has not led to like a more loving outcome, not just for me, but for everyone touches.

Hmm. And. So like you just, it would be very hard to convince me that, uh, it'll be very hard to convince me that that's not a force to dedicate my life to, because it seems to see [01:02:00] more beautifully and clearly and deeply than Max sees. And I have seen example after example, after example of that. And even if things, even if there's pain that's created, even if it doesn't go the way my mind wants it to, which it often doesn't, it's still like there's so much beauty and love and learning and growth on the other side of it.

And yes, I am devoted to that force. Mm.

[01:02:25] CK: Yeah. There's, um, say payoff is probably not the right word, but that's, that's what comes to mind right now of being true to oneself, whatever that is. And in your case, is love. Mm-hmm. Right? Versus, you know, going against that and, uh, trust logic or whatever the thing and, uh, or outside opinions.

And, and become more, shall we say, spiritually bankrupt as a result of that. You might get what you want, but it's, it's not, it's not what you want

[01:02:57] Max: in quotes, what you thought you wanted. Yeah. Correct. [01:03:00] Correct. Um, yeah. The payoff is life and fullness and aliveness and That's right. All of that. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. And whether it goes your way or not, it goes your way. Life is right.

[01:03:12] CK: Yeah. So, um, you, you mentioned actually quite a lot in psychedelics, uh, about psychedelics in your, in your words, that mo movie. So could you share with us a little bit about your experience with it? How has it helped you experience that aliveness, the fullness, open up your mind, open up your heart even more.

Can you share, uh, with us

[01:03:37] Max: about that? Um, Yeah, the fir, the uh, the time, the laughter I just described to you of like being like, it, like really looking at this. Like, was it like, should she and I have not connected, like, is this wrong? Like it was on psychedelics That allowed me to really fully look at that and where it was just so funny to think of that as the case.

Um, [01:04:00] and the first time I took it, I was 23, um, and it just felt like all of my anxiety just melted away. And I was looking at the world for the first time as it was compared to all the thoughts and stories that Max had about it and. It was like all this fear and anxiety that I was riddled with, sort of melted in the moment.

And I could look at you and be like, oh my God, you have a nose? I have a nose. That's amazing. We both have noses, like what are the odds? Um, but just like with this ease of, okay, like, let me look at what's here now. And psychedelics have been a beautiful gift and like an embodied perspective shift towards presence, openness, love, and um, yeah, and absence of judgment and acceptance of what is in all of its many forms.

Um, and you know, there's, if you're a prone to psychotic breaks, be a little bit more careful if, uh, and if, uh, you know, like set and setting are very important. There's a lot of [01:05:00] sort of research to do, I think, before diving in for the first time. But I also do recommend anyone or may or maybe not like, or maybe if you, if your gut feels really drawn to it, like trust that, um, but it's been one of the most profound.

Teachers in my life. I think there's very little that can create an embodied sense of perspective shift like that. Mm-hmm. Psychedelics, heartbreak, um, near death experiences. Those things seem to be the, the greatest teachers and embodied perspective shifters that I've witnessed.

[01:05:34] CK: Is it, uh, one and done? Is it a regular practice still?

How do you, how do you use this particular experience slash tool to support you to be the most authentic version of

[01:05:47] Max: yourself? Um, I probably do it like a couple times a year. Um, I actually think I've gone a full year without, or no, in April. Last [01:06:00] April was the last time I did a journey and so that's the longest that I've gone without doing it in some time.

I usually try to do it a couple times a year. Um, And I'm a lightweight, so like I'm very sensitive to a lot of these things, so I don't do very heavy doses. Um, but I fully like have, I think, similar experiences to folks who are doing higher dosage amounts. And I've never tried microdosing in a regular fashion, but I'm curious about that.

Um, and yeah, I just am hopeful that in 10 years it'll be a much more significant part of like our culture and lives and medical process, and that we're not looking at it as this illegal scary thing as opposed to just like the benefit to consciousness that it can be.

[01:06:46] CK: I mean, I think personally one of the reasons why I talk about this openly is the more people talk about it, the more normalized it would be because it is, in my opinion, a tool, a powerful tool, a tool not to [01:07:00] be taken lightly, but nonetheless, it can really enhance our, uh, mental mastery or awareness mastery.

You know, and I would've never, if without let's say my ayahuasca experience, I would've never gotten to the depth of my consciousness, my ability to see truth and also illusion. So hence why, you know, I really appreciate when people just talk about their own experience. It's, it's, it is really, really

[01:07:26] Max: helpful.

Yeah. Thanks for bringing it to the forefront. I noticed myself have a reaction to the word mastery, along with it as the experience of psychedelics for me is such a clear, such clear evidence of how not in control we are. I was like this totally of like, oh, whatever I thought I was in control of. There is so much more than that.

And we're in control of our own actions and decisions and our own responsibility. Like, I like love, radical accountability of my own lives and surroundings, and just the idea that I am a master of [01:08:00] it in the context of psychedelics is sort of, It brings a smile to my face of like, I kind of think the universe is in charge and mm-hmm.

We're our best to keep our own side of the, our own, our own side of it clean. So,

[01:08:14] CK: okay. So since I'm talking to a wordsmith Sure. I'd love to hear how you were nuanced that, so here's my perspective around it, right. Please. My perspective around it is I'm a martial artist and I look at the world through skill acquisition.

I believe we can gain mastery about everything that we do. And then here's one example. People think that, oh, the goal is to get a black belt. No. The goal is to learn the different skills from white belt to black belt. And the journey begins after you. You know, you achieved some competency in the basic skills, and so the journey ultimately is the horizon.

It never ends. You never arrive to something. Mm-hmm. So that's my, when I use the word mastery, that's [01:09:00] what, you know, want, wanted to communicate. So it's not a sense of

[01:09:04] Max: finality. I'm someone who is always open and, and learning and who has Right. Um, and who has a, like a strong skillset set of mm-hmm. A strong practice skillset.

Mm-hmm. If we're using that term for mastery, then, then I'm down. Um, when I think of mastery, I think of someone like, and I hear the, the energy of that word. I think of people who are like, I have mastered this. Like, I am, I'm done. Yeah. I'm finished. I'm finished and, and I'm in control of it. Yeah. As opposed to the Yeah.

Almost. There's more like a Buddha like nature of what you're describing, of like always being open to, to what is new and applying our fullest. And best self to it. And yeah, I don't know what a word for that is, but I would like it, whatever that one is. Well,

[01:09:53] CK: if it comes to mind by the end of our conversation, please let me know because, uh, that's the sentiment, that's the spirit [01:10:00] I wanted to communicate.

Not finality, but rather, hey, we are all on this journey of towards,

[01:10:06] Max: you know, honestly, the, the, the word that comes to mind is, uh, and what was the phrase you used? I want to use it with the same phrase you said a master of, do you remember, uh, skill acquisition? No, no, no. It's like a ma a master of your own consciousness maybe.

Or a master.

[01:10:21] CK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Consciousness awareness. Uh, that's, that's what it used. I

[01:10:25] Max: think it would probably be a dancer of your own consciousness.

[01:10:28] CK: Mm, okay. Awesome. Great. Awesome.

[01:10:33] Max: Um, I like that.

[01:10:36] CK: Well, let's segue a little bit to the work that you do with the students. I know that you are a poet, but you also are, uh, the founder.

Is that correct? Of, uh, social awakening, is that correct? That's correct. So can you share with us your intention of working with the students, with the schools? What is it that you're intending to deliver [01:11:00] to them?

[01:11:00] Max: Um, I'm trying to help the next generation have a, like more dancey of their own lives. Mm-hmm.

Um, and, uh, I think it's very hard for them to be their own people and live internally driven beautiful lives in the age of social media. Um, I'm trying to help them have healthier relationships with technology, with their devices and with themselves and with each other. Um, we're seeing massive mental.

Challenges among this generation, especially seam of quite related to the rise in social media's popularity. And I get to come in not as their parent or teacher, but as someone who used to work in the tech industry and say, look, I'm not here to tell you what to do. I am here to show you how this is designed so you can see the ways that you're being manipulated by some of these platforms, and you can make your own decisions and make better decisions about how much and how often you want to use this stuff.

And I show them some of the specific ways that that's happening and kind of open their minds to. Like, Hey, when are we, in what [01:12:00] ways are we doing this on purpose? And in what ways are we actually totally just caught in this messed up thing that none of us would ever actually choose? Um, and so yeah, I'm a, I'm a very good perspective shift and kickoff to like a different way of thinking about this stuff.

And then afterwards there's like some follow up resources and lesson plans and things like that of just like thinking a little bit more deeply about how social media is steering our lives in relationships. And I have spent a lot of my time this year doing that work. It's very busy. There are a lot of schools who are looking for, for this and yeah, I've given, what is it?

It was, I gave 15 presentations this past week. Um, wow. I get 21 the week before that and wow. I'm heading off to another, um, another nine in this next week. And so it's, it's quite busy. Um, and yeah, and I'm learning to balance that work and my art work life. And it also feels like a duty in something that I have.

Uh, a lot of, [01:13:00] like, I'm effective at it, and so I, I'm committed to it,

[01:13:04] CK: so thank you for pointing to that. And that's the trend that will continue to, uh, emerge and evolve, uh, along the way. I, I don't see it going that way any, anytime soon. Right. You had said somewhere in your, your, in your show that you know something about changing people's minds.

So what's effective, and then, um, let me ask the nuanced question. So the demand is there, especially from the parents, from the school part, but I am curious about whether the students want that.

[01:13:39] Max: Yeah. So your questions go hand in hand for sure, because the key, the way that you effectively change people's mind is basically, You don't, they change their own mind.

Like you help people change their own mind if they want to and when they want to. It works when they want to. Mm-hmm. And so that is very much my approach and my strategy is like, hey, [01:14:00] like what do you want? Like, hey, like all of you, what do you want in your own life? And there's a couple of powerful moments.

One is when like I ask them, I say, raise your hand if you use Snapchat. All their, oh, how do I get on camera there? All my hands are up. All their hands are up. Keep your hands high. If you have Snapchat, streaks going, all their hands are up. Keep your hands high if you like Snapchat, streaks, all their hands go down.

Um, and so they get to like recognize in the moment, okay, yeah, we're doing this thing that we don't like doing. Like maybe this stuff does work on us. And so I think a big part of the value I bring to school is, is just opening kids' minds. And not everyone, I'm not reaching every kid. There are plenty of kids who are sitting there rolling their eyes at me and being like, this guy is trying to tell me how to use my phone.

Um, but I am pretty good at opening the, opening the door so that kids can. Be like, yeah, you know, I, this isn't working for me and I do want to change my relationship with it. A lot of kids will delete some of the apps like in the room, um, when I'm like, when I'm there, like I ask them like, whatever that one app is, there's one app on your phone.

Like, I don't know what it is, but [01:15:00] you know what it is, it's either a huge time was or terrible for your mental health, but you don't delete it cuz you're a total addict. And then like they get out their phones and they're like, it's like if you want to do you wanna 'em delete that app and then probably like 25% of them delete the app right there.

Mm-hmm.

[01:15:16] CK: Okay. So, so I'm gonna, let's see, advocate for the voice of the skeptic real quick, if you don't mind. Sure. I agree with you. I think that's a worthy effort and I now I'm gonna advocate for, you know, the, the skeptic. Go for it. The, the, the force is so great, right from the advertising, from the brand, from the billions of dollars going to designing these apps to be so addictive.

Um, You came in with a moment of awareness, awakening, right? To like, all right, I don't like this. Let me delete it. But then after you're gone, then the force of the, you know, all the billions of dollars and then all the designs and just the, the culture, the [01:16:00] peers, it was gonna pull back. It's gonna seduce the students back to their addiction with their phone.

So how do you help sustain that moment of inspiration to actual behavior change so then they can be free, be liberated from their addiction?

[01:16:18] Max: For sure. And also, by the way, I would love to say that I come in for an hour in their lives and cure them of this ale, and that is not the case, for sure. Mm-hmm. It is a spark and a first moment.

Um, some of the different things I do are one, like there's follow up and continued conversation and exercises or groups of to keep it going. But two is like during the hour I focus on like, Hey, if you are interested in changing your relationship to this, like you're gonna feel like cravings, like straight up withdrawal symptoms.

Like as you don't have it, you're gonna feel the moment where you feel called to, like, whether it's boredom, loneliness, anxiety, you're gonna feel called to start scrolling. So what you, one thing you can figure out for yourself is like, [01:17:00] what do you wanna do instead? In that moment for habits to stick, we're gonna need to figure out like something else that we're wanting to do in that moment.

Also, like, are you alone in this? If you're doing it by yourself, and a lot of people will tell me they deleted it and then three weeks later, They're sitting around with their friends. All their friends are just on TikTok, and they thought, all right, fuck it, whatever. I'm just gonna go on TikTok. Um, it's probably easier to do this together in groups.

And, you know, also of one question I got from a teenager the other day was like, Hey, how do I, like, how do I deal with, like, when I de I, I really like deleting the app and then like all my, like, I feel like I don't know what the trends are, my friends are talking about, and I feel self-conscious to like ask them.

Um, and I say things like, Hey, like I think you might be looking at, you feel like a burden when you're asking them to explain this. It's like, but actually, like what if you were a gift to your friends of that? Like, you know, everybody is on their phones all the time doing this thing that they're not actually enjoying a lot.[01:18:00]

It's like maybe you lean into it and be like, okay. What if you said, Hey, can you explain this TikTok trend to me? You are not allowed to use any videos. You're not allowed to show me. You have to explain in words what this TikTok trend is to me. Like go and then have everybody get together and try to do that.

You're probably gonna have actually a pretty enjoyable experience doing that because they're ridiculous. And so it'll be like funny as they try to explain it, you'll laugh together as you figure that out. And so like trying to help them like recognize some of those differences and create more actual fun moments in their lives.

And yeah, you're right that like I'm not solving this, like when I come in it does not get fixed. Um, and frankly like I would like to get better at what the follow up looks like and how to continue to support in an ongoing way cuz there's billions of dollars and huge industries that are committed to this.

Um, but what I've gotten really good at so far is the awakening is the spark. And then often, you know, the communities themselves, the schools, the groups, Like they will continue the work. [01:19:00] They're, they use it as the spark and try to help it keep on going. And how effective is that ongoing process remains to be seen, but that's the process right now.

I

[01:19:10] CK: really see that there's a, a really, um, I suppose budding, but an important niche here. And I'm, I am curious amount about who will pay for this, right? The students definitely need it, but in my mind, I suppose this is perhaps a limiting belief that they don't necessarily want to pay for this, but perhaps the parents, perhaps the schools willing to pay for a ongoing coaching program.

[01:19:35] Max: Um, yeah. The schools are, I mean, the, my work is funded by the schools and like there are budgets for this stuff and mm-hmm. Yeah. The question I think right now is less about does, you know, I think if there's a program that's really working mm-hmm. There's no, there's no shortage of demand or funds, I think, to get that done.

Mm.

[01:19:54] CK: Great. I think, um, Hey man, uh, I'm, I'm rooting for you. Is [01:20:00] it much needed? Yeah. I mean, I think going and neutralizing are addicted to behaviors is an important thing in whether you are addicted to candy or social media or alcohol, whatever the thing that you're addicted to or in Netflix. I love, by the way, I love that I was gonna watch one episode then it sounds six hours later, like that line was like, ah, so good.

I relate, I

understand. So, but, but it how you, how this hooks the students in one thing, but it, it translates to many, many other areas in life is such a critical skill to.

[01:20:40] Max: Yeah, there's a, a lot of need right now for ways of man managing and battling addictions, whatever they may be. It's never been easier to fall into the addictive thing.

We carry it around 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It is often deeply ingrained in our actual lives. It's a really tricky addiction. Mm-hmm.

[01:20:58] CK: Hey, let me do a heart. [01:21:00] Right. I'm curious to, to know about your perspective around this Chachi p t as a creative, what's your, what's your perspective around Chachi p t?

[01:21:08] Max: I'm still playing. Um, I had the thought today, I was like, I wonder if in the future, like things that people are writing and creating will almost be like the organic food of content. Okay. Um, where it's like, what does that mean? It's like farm to table of like the creation itself was not put into the ai.

Like, oh no, this was a natural farm to table creation that I'm taking in compared to. The synthetic, the Processed Creations. Um, I had that thought of like, oh, I wonder if that's how we'll look at it in the future when there's such proliferation of so many of these AI tools and where it gets better and better and better.

Hmm. Um, I've, yeah, like visually, I've been loving it. The, the book that I'm really seeing has a bunch of illustrations that I made with Mid [01:22:00] Journey and like, I'm not a visually creative person and so to, to enable me that way. I've loved that, the ease of that process. I notice it doesn't feel like I'm actually making something when I do it.

Like, it just, it, I don't feel like I created something like, it doesn't have that, even though I typed in the prompts or changed it a bunch, like just doesn't have that same creative feeling for me. Um, I've yet to use it in writing in any way that feels good. It's possible that as it gets better, I will, um, just today because there's enough of a presence of me on the internet that this worked.

As I'm thinking about, like releasing other things, I typed in. Like, Hey, what are 10 publications that would be likely to be excited about Max Staal's new video work? And it gave me a list of 10 articles and 10 people that I could reach out to and contact. And I was like, okay, that was cool. Um, and so it's helped my process in that way so far.

And yeah, and you know, I'm, I'm nervous about the, the [01:23:00] speed of it and the way social media has already done a number on our shared sense of reality. And people post on social media, whatever they already wanted to believe, and finding evidence for their, you know, like, look how, look how the world is exactly the way that I told you it was all along.

And taking everything that happens in the news to be examples of that. Now we'll be able to create evidence for what we already believed, and then people will share it as though it's true. So I think it's gonna do a number on our shared sense of reality in a way that makes me really sad. Um, and yeah, I'd say those are, that's my read right now.

Okay,

[01:23:36] CK: so what I'm getting from you is you're cautious about the creative process, right? You still want to protect the, the creative integrity, the artistic integrity I farm to table. This is not done with any kind of AI tools. So that's one angle. Another angle that you look at is, what else did you say? Um,

[01:23:58] Max: illustrations from a [01:24:00] book.

[01:24:00] CK: Yeah. So, so you do use it for illustration purpose, but the last thing you said was the, uh, oh, right, right. The, the possibility of weaponizing or amplifying and the echo chamber effect. Like basically people are just gonna go out and search what, uh, augments their point of view, and then now they have this super tool to to to, to depo, to polarize what's already polarized, even.

[01:24:28] Max: Yeah, I think often we're, yeah, we're searching for things that fit our beliefs. So now, if one person has created this story, like, you know, with Ill intention perhaps to make a certain group look ridiculous, the people are just waiting to see the proof that that group was monsters or evil or whatever it was.

And then now we even see it with my own eyes. I can see, I saw him say it. Don't tell me. He didn't say it. I saw him say it. Oh, deep, fake deep fakes. Or it's even article, the article written from, uh, I don't know, extreme liberal, extreme [01:25:00] conservative perspective about X on transgender. This, like, see there are people who believe this.

Look, see? Yeah, I saw the article just like it's, I think it going, there's gonna be a lot of darkness too. Mm-hmm. Um,

[01:25:14] CK: I'm actually, uh, a optimist around that. Yeah. Yeah. So, so for me, the way I see it is, Uh, these AI tools is a forcing function for us to be even more human, to be even more creative. Mm-hmm.

Because there may be things, so I'll use, I'll use my personal, uh, example. Um, I'm not the best when it comes to capitalization, grammar, subject, object agreements, you know, all these, you know, segues, transitions, all these type of things. So now with these tools, I can actually focus on the idea itself rather than trying to shore up my shortcoming.

As an example. So it actually helps me, um, to, in [01:26:00] terms of artistic direction, like I may have, I may have an idea I want to express, but I don't have the skills necessarily to really refine in such a way that communicates and lands to Max. But now I have a way to say, this is the visual, artistic, direction wise, what I'm trying to communicate, or this sentence, this paragraph is what I'm trying to communicate.

So I'm excited for the possibility for that. Thoughts

[01:26:26] Max: response. Yeah. There's something interesting about, like, it basically becomes the AI suggesting like, Hey, did you mean this? It's like, did you wanna say this? Is it like that? And then we sort of are picking more Yeah. Kind of like that. And then, or maybe, or not quite like that.

No, more like this. I know that I didn't just, there was a lot of this and that words in that, and there wasn't, there wasn't very much substance A what? But the, uh, I think the process of creating something, of formulating a thought and idea and expressing [01:27:00] that thought and idea, like back to the energy transfer and loss, I think the ease at which it will be, will be able to be like, yeah, kind of that, um, as opposed to really birthing something.

Hmm. Um, and so I'm worried about the, the loss of what we're birthing and very grateful for the things that it makes easier. Um, but the, you know, as AI tends to steps on the not measurable, it steps on the nuanced, it steps on what is hard to see, um, because it's operating entirely on things that are measurable and ones and zeros and data that is inputted inside of it.

Uh, so yeah, there's like the, I like to use this example of the Fbu lens, which is a term that I use, especially when talking to very scientifically minded people who, uh, where it's like, all right, you're taking the fbu lens [01:28:00] into account. And they often first look at me confused because fbu don't exist, which is very fair.

Um, and the reason that I bring it up is because things like that, wait, wait, what does that word mean again? Exactly. So it doesn't mean anything. I made it up, but what I'm making it mean mm-hmm. Is things like bacteria in medicine, things that absolutely, fundamentally measurably change an entire industry in very clear and obvious ways.

But before we know that they exist, we just operate and proceed and build systems without accounting for them. Mm-hmm. It's not that. Bacteria doesn't exist. It's that we didn't have the ability to measure it until we did. Mm-hmm. Um, and the fbu lens to me are the things that in five, 10 years are absolutely very much real and there and critical to our fields and processes in whatever sort of area.

But we do not yet, we don't yet know how to measure them or see [01:29:00] them. Right now, they're flins, we don't have any idea what they are, but they will exist in five, 10 years. We'll be able to measure them in five, 10 years. And so I'd say one of my biggest concerns with the rapid pace of technology is the fbu lens, is that it is not accounting for very measurable, real, tangible, important things that are existing in our reality that we don't yet know how to see or measure.

And we are proceeding at light speed without taking something as important as bacteria into account for what we're building and growing at. Um, and so that's. That's my main concern with the speed of ai. Hmm.

[01:29:39] CK: So, in my mind, there are two responses. If I oversimplify everything right. So one response is, yeah, it's good enough.

Let me just ship it to you. Engineer. Yeah. Let me, let me let, no, no, I mean the, the content, like, let me type in some prompts. Okay. Yeah. It's approximate to what I'm [01:30:00] trying to communicate. Okay. Versus my use case isn't that, let me, I don't wholesale, you know, take everything and just ship. What I use is really get into fbu.

Like what is the, what is the, the thing that I'm trying to express? And then using your phrase, express the infinity of this being, this fbu that I'm trying to grasp at. I just didn't have words for it. It helps me there, so it helps me to be even more human. That's my use case versus just outsourcing, you know, content to this AI tool.

Hmm.

[01:30:38] Max: And I guess that gets into the question of like, is there something in crafting and figuring it out as opposed to grabbing it from an external source? And do we give up our, how much of our power in the process of that are we giving up? How much of our creation process and like, how much of the reality of it are we saying that's good enough?

[01:31:00] And if we're really not, then that's great. Like my read on human beings is that we tend to take the path of least resistance a lot. And so I think it'll be a lot of settling. Mm-hmm. Um, and cuz it's harder to birth an idea. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, but that's some, some will take that effort and that's great too.

And some won't. And that's okay.

[01:31:24] CK: And, and this is why I use the tools responses. I believe that those who basically just outsource their thinking to AI tools, they're gonna be so full of noise versus those who really use these tools for what they are and know the limitations of it and use it to, uh, enhance it own creativity, to me that's, that's a better path.

And then, and then it would be even more valuable now that we can basically cut 10 different drafts of let's say, artistic direction of a, an image [01:32:00] or a paragraph or something. And then we can select those from my

[01:32:04] Max: opinion, not the truth. Yeah. I'm trying to take what you're saying, like to social media of like, as social media came of like, who are the people who like took the tool and really used it in the, like, in the way that you're describing of like to at this deep, enhanced, beautiful way as opposed to, Um, just kind of falling into the, the nature of the system.

Well,

[01:32:29] CK: I'm curious cuz you work with Mr. Gary v what do you think? Like, I, I'm an outsider. Never worked with him, never met him. He is used that tool very, very

[01:32:41] Max: well. Yeah. He's somebody who I think, you know, he's a very good fit for social media. Um, and yeah, I agree he, him humans of New York. Um, there are some shining examples that shine through to me they feel like rarities compared to the vast [01:33:00] majority of the noise and like self obsessed ness and twisting.

Um, which is not to say that the beauty doesn't exist. It absolutely does. Um, yeah. I'm just, as I'm listening to you, I'm like, oh, I'm hopeful that the ones that stand out and are doing it in these really beautiful human ways are the ones that shine through. That just isn't what I'm noticing on social media.

It seems like. With that new technology, there are some shining lights that, you know, we're able to think of and highlight, and I'm struggling to think of more like, you know, and then the vast majority of it is this other sort of messy nonsense. And I hope AI will be different. This, I hope that this set of tools will be different and I guess I'm not confident that I will be.

Um,

[01:33:46] CK: well, I really appreciate your artistry. I really appreciate your commitment, your devotion to creativity. And I am hopeful that you know, all the things that you, we've been touching [01:34:00] upon, you know, from mental health to, you know, social media presence, to create a process to exposing our oneself, our truth, uh, using this medium.

Um, It's gonna be a net net positive that, but that's me. I'm

[01:34:19] Max: a eternal optimist. I'm hoping too, man. I'm not hoping for anything less. I just am trying to, yeah, and And I think

[01:34:27] CK: the more methodology, the more discipline we can suppose, teach or transfer, like all the wisdom that you accumulated over time into creativity and social media and all these things.

And then be able to transfer to the younger generations. I think, I hope, I am hopeful that more people can take from you, learn from you, and then be more of themselves. Experience that moment, the unit of rapture in the moment more and expressing and leaving more of this, [01:35:00] this comet that's uniquely them.

[01:35:03] Max: Well, I appreciate that brother, and thanks for chatting. Yeah. Is there any

[01:35:07] CK: last thing that you wanted to say for people who are listening to you and just like if there's like one thing you want to leave him with,

[01:35:21] Max: Um, they had the devotion to love. Like, love itself is really quite wonderful. I highly recommend it. Five stars on Yelp, maybe more. I just can't quite give it any more stars cuz of the Yelp limitations, but I can and I will and I do give it more stars. All the stars for devotion to love. And yeah. Thanks for, thanks for chatting.