173 Martin Devon: Unleashing the Power of Conversations - From Information to Transformation

[00:00:00] CK: my next guest is Martin Devon. He's an entrepreneur working on improving the health outcomes of using better data. However, he's also an elder in our men's group, and he's a dear friend for almost 20 years. Thanks for being here, Martin.

My

[00:00:16] Martin: pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:18] CK: So before we start, I just wanted to say your superpower to me is your ability to be ninja about moving people through spaces. And what I mean by that is when people come to you with a question, you have a particular skillset to bring clarity to them. Can you say a little bit more about what your superpower is?

[00:00:43] Martin: All right. Well, um, I appreciate you calling it a superpower. Really what it is, is I'm, uh, I listen to people and I'm. . And so I first of all help them clear what's in the [00:01:00] way of them thinking clearly just by listening. Uh, a lot of the problems that we have when we're struggling with a question or struggling with an issue is that we're all in our heads.

And so, um, I mean there's technical terms for this. I don't know if that's that important, but one of them is, for example, ruminating. Mm-hmm. . So I don't know when, um, you think of young CK or young, you know, I'll use Young Martin as an example. I could think about, you know, when I was in high school and I had a crush on a girl, and, uh, I'm thinking, does she like me?

Does she not like me? I don't know how many times that thought could go through my head, right? Mm-hmm. . But hearing it once is probably enough. I'm not sure if this girl likes me. Well, what can I do about that? Before you can get to what can I do about that? I need to like, let go of that thought and go on to the next one.

And so a lot of what's going on is people are holding onto those thoughts [00:02:00] instead of getting on with it. So that's a big part of my superpower.

[00:02:07] CK: Yeah, I mean, um, . But how do you do that though? Right? How do you listen with Pristine is without rumination? Because that's really easy to say. Just don't think.

But the moment you say don't think it's paradoxical, you start thinking more, right? Actually, the minds start to grasp at that idea of thinking.

[00:02:28] Martin: Sure. I mean, you and I have done lots of courses around listening. Mm-hmm. , you know, there, there, there are good courses out there that will help you do that. Um, I dunno if you wanna plug them.

[00:02:40] CK: Sure. Why not? I mean, if you, if they work for you

[00:02:43] Martin: by means. Yeah. So the landmark communication curriculum is, uh, really amazing when it comes to that. So there's two courses that, uh, just get you started being a good listener, and then if you're like CK or me, uh, you spend two years perfecting those, those [00:03:00] skills.

So those are really good, good ones to get you started. But, um, I have, you know, you and I both have some close, close friends who never did those courses and are excellent listeners. So, you know, more than anything else, it's a commitment to listening. And um, I know this sounds a lot easier than it is, but the key to listening is when you notice you're not listening, stop whatever you're thinking about and go back to listening.

And so, um, if you decide that you're gonna practic. , you know, and if you've got, uh, really if you've got friends, you've got people in your life. Um, one thing I recommend highly if you wanna become a good listener is have teenagers, that really help my process . Um, so, you know, you have the occasion to practice and then you just listen.

Hmm. I know it sounds easier when I just say, oh, just listen. But, you know, you do it year after year. Um, for those of you with [00:04:00] kids, that's just an excellent, excellent way cuz you'll find that you become a better father or mother by listening to your kids and you have a better, like, you enjoy your relationship with 'em better.

Mm. Um, even if you go through tough times.

[00:04:15] CK: Mm-hmm. Yeah. When people say, okay, so I'll use younger CK as an example, what you just said to younger CK would be, you can't be because it's so passive. But the older CK will say, well, if you actually listen, well, it's active and it's passive. The, the effort part is noticing whenever the mind goes away and then bring it back.

That's the effort. But the passive part is just, you know, no effort, just listen and receive whatever person has to say.

[00:04:45] Martin: Well, if I was talking to young CK uh, how old were you when you were, when you were doing martial arts?

[00:04:52] CK: When I started 16. Okay.

[00:04:54] Martin: And when you got your black belt.

[00:04:57] CK: I didn't, never got my black belt.

I was close. Okay. How far [00:05:00] did you get? I got to, uh,

[00:05:03] Martin: That's just so non ck not completing school. started

[00:05:06] CK: it. Well, I had to go away for college. That's my excuse

[00:05:09] Martin: all. Uh, no judgment. I'm just surprised this will be the first time I know. Anything you started that you didn't complete, just cuz of your dog ig.

Am I

[00:05:18] CK: wrong? Mm-hmm. . Yep. You know me well.

[00:05:23] Martin: Okay, so I'm talking to young CK and let's say 16 year old ck. So how's it going with your martial arts? You're talking to the younger

[00:05:33] CK: ck Yeah. You

[00:05:35] Martin: remember what he was like?

[00:05:36] CK: Yeah, I do remember. Yeah. I,

[00:05:38] Martin: so, so you're doing your first kaar or whatever. Mm-hmm. , how'd you get good at it?

[00:05:46] CK: A dog and determination, as we say,

[00:05:48] Martin: right? Mm-hmm. . But if you're doing, look, if you're doing a, a str, if you're doing a strike or you're doing a block mm-hmm. , it's the, the mindset you've gotta get to do that is the same as listening. [00:06:00] Mm. Right. Imagine you're sparring with an opponent and you're just, if you're listening, you do better.

Mm-hmm. , if you are not listening, you just, well, you're gonna do your punch. Mm-hmm. , my opponent, um, isn't there for me to punch them. Yep. It's the same, it's the same, it's the same type of concentration. Mm.

[00:06:20] CK: Right. Yeah. It requires full presence. The effort, it re, you know, it requires to have full presents, otherwise punch is gonna come or kick is gonna come your

[00:06:31] Martin: way.

Yeah. Right. And so like if you're talking to a young person, they'll be, you know, if you do the whole flower description, it's gonna bore them and it's . It's not gonna get, it's not gonna get into the space where they're at. Yeah. Like if you look at young people, I think about both my children when they were five, you know, um, I, I was doing a lot of Tai chi.

I remember my young one, you know, she was five years old. Uh, she would play little energy [00:07:00] tricks with me. We'd be holding my hand and I'd look at her, I'm like, are you sending me energy? And she just started laughing. Right. It's cuz for her it was play. I didn't say, okay, now meditate, now do this breathing now.

Clear. You know, it's just like, she's just playing with who she is. And, you know, I remember, um, my older one, uh, she just loved certain books. We go to the bookstore and any book I bought, you know, she would really wanted a book. She'd have the patience to sit there and read. It was not a problem. It's only when you tell them you gotta sit still that it's the problem.

But that's my experience anyway. Mm-hmm. .

[00:07:39] CK: Yeah. I appreciate this. Thank you. So maybe we could talk about something that we're really passionate about. Men's work. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what's men's work for you?

[00:07:52] Martin: Um, well I don't look at it so much as men's work. I look at it. , [00:08:00] um, getting really clear about the source of my power and mm-hmm.

Um, I think, uh, you know, like if I was a woman, I'd be passionate about what you'd call a women's work, but I'm a man, so, you know, this is what works for me. But when, um, um, I have so many women I have, you know, in my life that I love that are close to me. And what's interesting is that when I'm, I'm being the man that I really wanna be, they really like being around me.

They like that guy. Hmm. And, um, when I was younger, one of my biggest frustrations and one of the big problems I had in relationships was that I would,

I, I try and give people what, what they were asking for instead of what they needed. And I wasn't so much worried about who I am and what works for me. Hmm. And, [00:09:00] um, so yeah, I don't, I don't know if that's giving you your answer. Maybe I just see it differently than you two.

[00:09:08] CK: Um, no, I mean, it is, it's, it's one answer, right?

I'm not looking for a particular answer. , you know? Um, but some people may say, Hey, the source of my power comes from my faith. I know you are also very, um, you were raised Orthodox, is that correct?

[00:09:25] Martin: Yeah. If you look behind me, you can see, uh, many of my father's books. If you're, um, if you are orthodox, you, you know, you know what a sha is, what a set of Talmud.

So right by my ear over, oh, this one behind that, you can see my dad's, uh, set of Talmud, my dad's sha mm-hmm. . And, um, uh, I wouldn't say I'm orthodox anymore, far from it, but, um, , um, I very much, you know, I'm very tied to my Jewish tradition and mm-hmm. . Um, I mean, what's so interesting is if you look at [00:10:00] the energetic, uh, mystical side of different traditions, be they religious, be they, um, I mean, I don't know, what would you call the, the Chinese, um, martial arts tradition.

It's not really religious, but it's, it's a, it's definitely a strong Chinese tradition, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, what's interesting is because we're all human beings, the paths are the same. So you'll have, um, I actually had this conversation with, um, my rabbi a week ago in synagogue. If you look at the key Jewish meditations, um, they're the.

as the ones you might find in the Indian, you know, yoga culture. Or the yoga, yoga way of looking at things. Or the same you'd find in Chiang or Tai Chi or, you know, there's a, I've done the same meditation in a [00:11:00] yoga class where the source material was in Sanskrit versus a Hebrew meditation where the sources were in, in Hebrew.

Mm-hmm. . And they just, they're the same sounds, they're just spelled differently. It's like almost the exact same meditation. Um, and so, uh, it's, um, I don't know whether it was you that I was talking to, there was someone I was talking to, um, who was trying to access, like there's a lot of, there's a conversation within, let's say, Orthodox Judaism, and there's a similar conversation within, uh, fundamental Christianity where, um, there are some strains of thought that are against meditation.

And what's so interesting, I don't think it was with you, was it this unfamiliar, this, this time? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And it doesn't matter where, um, If, if for those of you that like practice a lot of yoga, you know about mudras and those are basically hand [00:12:00] positions that give you different, uh, different energies.

So if you are very aggravated, you have a particular mudra that you would do, putting your fingers together in a certain way that will give you calm. And, um, so one of my favorite museums in LA is the Norton Simon Museum. And one of the things you can do is see some of the Renaissance art, um, on the top floor.

And you go look around and you see paintings of Jesus. So you see paintings of popes and they're doing different things with their, where is this different, different motions with their hands, right? And tho those of you that, um, have done some of the yoga meditations, you know that, uh, what you do with your palms and how you, you sit cross-legged, um, you, you, you kind of can imagine what your, what your finger positions are.

And you go and you pay attention to the different paintings. You will see that Jesus is doing a mudra. And then you can go in that same [00:13:00] Norton, Simon and go on the basement and they've got, um, statues from all, all sorts of different countries. And you'll see that, you know, you've got a, you know, an elephant statue from, from, um, Indian culture, and they're making the same hand positions as Jesus.

And, you know, this is back long before jets and, and, and travel. They weren't looking at the same. They weren't. They didn't, they didn't take it from each other. They both independently discovered, or their traditions discovered what was effective and they did them. So there's a strong meditation strain within Judaism that, you know, many rabbis aren't aware of.

There's a strong meditation strain within Christianity that, you know, many denominations, you know, don't want to hear about it and you could go on and on. So, um, that's kind of a roundabout way of answering your question about why I find it so interesting to do, [00:14:00] you know, to study masculinity and femininity.

Yeah. Is because I'm kind of going back to what is it that I naturally do when I'm, I'm good at something. Um, and I've done a lot of different courses where what they're trying to get me to do is something that goes against my grain. Mm-hmm. , and I can do it, but I can't do it forever. Mm-hmm. or I can't always do it.

Whereas if I'm doing something that is kind of congruent with me and what it is I want to accomplish, um, it's just very easy. Yeah. So,

[00:14:33] CK: I mean, the core of this question, the why I mentioned, you know, your religious background is how some people. go to their head because they're strongly educated Right. Or some people go back to their cultural roots, you know, I'm Latino, or Chinese or Jewish or whatever, as a way to locating the source of the power.

So the core of this question is, how does one locate the source of the power? [00:15:00] This is not just about the tools or the path, rather, you mentioned a beautiful word, congruency. So how, how does one go about finding what's congruent internally, um, to themselves, the truest self?

[00:15:17] Martin: Again, it's gonna sound deceptively simple.

Look, start searching. Mm-hmm. . So, you know, um, I find that this is kind of a full circle, right? So I did a lot of study. I went to Yeshiva. I studied, I studied a lot of Jewish source material and, um, I got a certain level of understanding of it. But then I went and, you know, like I, I studied Tai chi and meditation and karate and reiki and you know, a variety of other things.

And then now I find myself looking back at the source material I studied when I was 16, 17, [00:16:00] 18, and having seen a different context for it. I understand it differently than I. At a younger age. So, uh, I, I wouldn't say there's a formula, but one of the things you can do is really get to know your culture and the sources of power within your, within your background, and then go study some other ones and then come back to it.

[00:16:21] CK: Hmm. It's interesting that you say that because, uh, that's kind of where I'm at right now. I appreciate the Chinese culture. Actually, no, let me correct myself. I didn't appreciate it so much when I was being imposed on, you gotta learn all these poems, you gotta learn all these calligraphy. And to me it was just old knowledge, archaic.

I don't need it. Why do I have to learn it? But now, as I went out to learn martial arts, uh, come to America, learn the Western way of thinking, you know, philosophies, different tool sets, and finding myself more drawn to the Chinese culture [00:17:00] of like Daoism as an example, and, and, and the richness behind some of just this simple words and phrases that, uh, you know, inal as an example.

[00:17:11] Martin: Yeah, A poor ck forced to learn loud Sue, right? .

[00:17:17] CK: I didn't understand it. I didn't Confucius.

[00:17:20] Martin: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, like, how much, how much would I love to be able to read a loud sue poem? , um, in the original, I mean, obviously not enough to learn Chinese to be able to do it properly so far yet, but, you know, there's a certain beauty in it that you can appreciate that I'll, I'll never appreciate mm-hmm.

But if you're forced to do it, you're not gonna do it.

[00:17:41] CK: Yeah. Yeah. So pay attention, try out. Going back to the cultural roots and now with the new lens, you know, being older, looking back, what, uh, the new appreciation that you may have or to understand the nuance of, you know, whether we're [00:18:00] teaching earlier anything else.

[00:18:02] Martin: Uh, I mean, it really depends on your audience, right? Like, uh,

uh, there was a tool set I wanted to give my kids. And, um, one of the great things about having teenagers is that they teach you that they're their own people. Mm-hmm. and they're not gonna do whatever it is you tell them. Mm-hmm. . Um, so I mean, it's, I'd have a different answer for someone who's 16, someone who's 21, someone who's 31, someone who's 45.

You know, it really depends on where you're at and what your next set of problems is. Hmm. Um, the universal tool set is, uh, don't worry, you know, don't look behind you. Uh, the past is the past and just, you know, enjoy every moment, be present. Uh, I sound like a Hallmark ad and, and very , very trite. But that's, you know, [00:19:00] don't sweat.

What was that expression? Uh, don't sweat the small stuff.

[00:19:02] CK: Small stuff. And it's all small stuff. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, so let's the book, click on that just for a moment. Because, you know, one may say, Hey, there's value in looking at the past, the pa because the past gives us clues. Uh, but you don't wanna dwell in the past and there's value in staying present and because the past or the future only matter anyway.

Cuz all we have is the present.

What would you say for someone who is still grappling with that?

[00:19:33] Martin: Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know if my, my earlier answer, you know, I'm dwelling in the past if my earlier answer about like, ignore the past is it's not exactly what I mean. Um, there's lessons that you can learn about your mistake. So, um, you knows Sahil Bloom has this, uh, really interesting, uh, CK and, uh, one that [00:20:00] I was looking at the other day was the harsh truths.

And so if you wanna look at your past, that's a good way to look at it. Like, what are the harsh truths you can learn about your past? The problem with looking at your past is you get all emotional. I don't mm-hmm. not that emotions are bad, but you get, you get, you get stuck or caught in your past and you, you know, you wind up in rumination and you wind up in regret.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. , the good thing about looking at the past is really just for learning lessons. Mm-hmm. , not for regret, not for dwelling. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So if you could learn to look at your past and I don't know. So let's say you did an exercise and you, um, like ck you, you're doing, I joke with this, with you about this, right?

But you have a PhD in,

[00:20:52] CK: uh, medical

[00:20:52] Martin: engineering and you've used the how,

[00:20:57] CK: uh, just the meta framework, how to learn, [00:21:00] but the actual content, not at all.

[00:21:02] Martin: Okay. So if I was asking you, would you to do it all over again, would you get the, would you get a PhD?

[00:21:10] CK: So it's a two part answer. One, I wouldn't, however, but I also want to say I wouldn't be the person I am today.

Without having gone through that experience. Okay. So no regrets there.

[00:21:23] Martin: But, but bottom line, you have to learn the lesson. What's the lesson?

[00:21:27] CK: The lesson, the lesson, the big lesson there is, uh, not to grasp on this fantasy of when I have X, then my life would turn out because it's, it's a lesson I have to keep learning over and over again.

Hence why this whole focus around deep joy and purpose with this podcast, right? Mm-hmm. .

[00:21:53] Martin: So, you know, um, you could be in a place where like, [00:22:00] oh my God, I spent so much time and energy getting PhD mm-hmm. and I really suffered. Did you suffer a little bit when you were doing PhD?

[00:22:07] CK: Uh, yes. . Was it,

[00:22:09] Martin: was it as much fun as it sounds like,

[00:22:12] CK: uh, you mean the suffering

[00:22:14] Martin: or No, the getting a PhD in, in your topic,

[00:22:16] CK: it sounds like a lot of fun.

Actually. Doing it is, is not a fun experience at all,

[00:22:21] Martin: right? Yeah. But if you look at it and you just abstract, okay. What did you learn? I mean, knowing you, I'd say one of the things you learned for yourself is that you could actually do that. Mm-hmm. , it's a very difficult thing. Mm-hmm. , it's a very big accomplishment.

Now, you know, it's a lot of time and money to spend where you could have said, well, I could have just done a marathon, right? Yes. , it's a, it's an intellectual marathon, right? Yeah. And, and you have the credential, which is good. Mm-hmm. , um, But what lessons you learn from it, like the most valuable thing is what lessons did you learn?

Yeah.

[00:22:56] CK: Yeah. So yeah. I, I would say to anyone [00:23:00] who's listening, that is the thing. Cuz there's the event that happened and there's the subjective experience and there are the lessons. And I would say for myself, I would, in the past, I would've just done it and then moving on to the next thing, like as quickly as possible.

Because in my mind, the, the biohacker, the life hacker in me just wanted to keep going forth. But in reality is the, you know, having the experience, having the event that happened, having the experience really immerse myself in it and then extract as much life lesson out of it as possible.

[00:23:39] Martin: Yeah. The, the other place to look for me, you know, I think part of the reason, uh, I, I, I find that I have a lot of, uh, Chinese and Taiwanese friends, and I think growing up with a Jewish mother or an Asian mother, there's a lot of, or father, there's a, a lot of similarities.

Like there's a [00:24:00] lot of pressure to do well academically and, um, especially when it comes to, you know, like I almost did an MBA and a law degree to make my parents happy. I went as far as doing the LSAT and the gmat mm-hmm. . And then I just said, you know, like, no, I'm, I'm. Um, like, I know I could have done those graduate schools, but it's like, why am I doing them?

And that's some of, you know, it's funny, you, I hated that as a, as a kid, but then I realized how much I was pushing my kids towards the same thing. And it's funny, you know, like how much of what you're doing, like you, you may blame your parents for things, but those are things that were imprinted generations and generations ago.

Mm-hmm. .

[00:24:48] CK: So you, you did it anyway, or you had to the, the, the insight to stop yourself from continuing the generational

[00:24:56] Martin: pattern. I mean, to a certain extent I stopped myself, but, [00:25:00] um, one of the things that I was amazed to learn about myself is how much of what I do is just programming. Um, you wanna hear the, my funny example of that?

Yeah, go for it. When I was younger, one of the things that annoyed the living crap out of me was how my mom, when she was frustrated and she didn't like the way my brother and I were carrying on or fighting or whatever we're doing, she's like, I'm gonna count to three, one. Two, three. And I'm like, mom, you know, like what there was, oh my god, my, my mom is counting what, what's gonna happen?

What , you know? And then my kids, I don't know how they were old, uh, six, seven years old, and I was exasperating with, exasperated with 'em. I was just so angry. I'm like, I'm gonna count to three. And I go one, two, and then I hear my mother and I just burst out into the laughter. I'm like, oh my God. I've just, where did that come from?

Like, why am I saying the things I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. So, [00:26:00] um, we think that we have everything we're, that comes out of our mouths is w you know, on purpose. Yeah. But the reality is, so much of it is programming.

[00:26:11] CK: Yeah. Okay. So let's double click on that. How do we discern, you know, truth versus illusion, you know, what we want versus programming, because there's actually a lot of debate going on right now, one may say, yeah, it's all free will.

That's one, one spectrum. The other end of the spectrum is there's no free will. It's, it's all programming.

How do you discern. when is programming and when is actually your sole expression of what you truly desire.

[00:26:48] Martin: So I could get really philosophical about it, but that's not gonna really help anyone.

Mm-hmm. . Right. I could say, no matter what I do, I never have free will. Mm-hmm. . Right? Because you, you could [00:27:00] ruminate and you'll see about how deep does the, does the rabbit hole go? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, once you get clear enough about what you're about and what's important to you,

uh,

you start to develop, uh, an ear to what you're saying and you can really focus and realize, this is what I'm saying, and I'm saying it on purpose. I mean to say this, and other times you're talking, but you're not really present. Mm-hmm. . So, um,

you see your mom and you say, hi, mom, how's it going? You said, I'm doing well. How are you doing? Well, you know, I just finished this class and I had breakfast with this friend, did this other thing, [00:28:00] and you realize you've been talking for 10 minutes and you haven't actually paid attention to what you're saying.

Mm-hmm. . Right? So that's programing. , but then you might like, just stop, look your mom in the eye and ask her a question. Like, what are you really? You look at your mom and you're like, what am I curious about my mom? I might say, mom, what was it like when you were on the, in the French countryside, you were picking fruit?

How did you decide what fruit you were gonna pick? And how did you know you had enough fruit? Hmm. Right. It's like you actually think about what, like what do you wanna have on purpose discussion with your mom? You know, like since my mom died there, sometimes I'm like, oh, you know, there's questions I wanted to ask her and I, I wish I could ask her.

Same with my dad. Hmm. So for those of you that have living parents, be curious. Ask the questions that you're not gonna be able to ask one day. Hmm.

[00:28:57] CK: That's a beautiful exercise. [00:29:00] So on the theme of learning and teaching, so one exercise that I've started taking on is asking those questions on my parents, thanks to our men's group, right?

The question about legacy and curiosity about grand grandparents and so forth. And, um, one thing I will do is to start recording those conversations, you know, for the sake of continuation of the legacy, the memories or stories and so forth. And I, I know that other people have done it and really appreciate the, the fruit.

uh, on the realm of teaching, have you thought about recording yourself so then that way your grandkids or your, your kids can one day, you know, know about you at this age going forth? You think that will be a meaningful exercise?

[00:29:51] Martin: Um, ? Yeah. Well, so I remember when [00:30:00] the kids were really young. I would journal and I would journal as I'm talking to them.

Um, but I never wound up giving 'em the journals. Mm-hmm. . Um, cuz what I found is like I was just trying to work out things for myself more than I was winding up communicating with them. Mm-hmm. , I do think about doing that. Um,

[00:30:23] CK: communicating with them or

[00:30:25] Martin: journaling. Yeah. Just recording. No recording relation thoughts.

I mean, this, when my kids are young, that was pre-internet. Pre you'd record stuff for yourself. Like more like you do a cassette tape. Mm-hmm. , you know mm-hmm. . Um, so sometimes I think about like, turning on the computer and, and sending letters to my kids. I, I don't, I feel so self-conscious I think is the reason why I don't do that.

[00:30:52] CK: But self-conscious as in self, like Yeah. I feel like important. Yeah. They would perceive it as you're being self, [00:31:00] I. ,

[00:31:01] Martin: I perceive it as self-important. I

[00:31:02] CK: don't know that you perceive it as self-important.

[00:31:05] Martin: Yeah. Maybe next time I talk to, I talk to them, I'll ask 'em. Is that something they would like?

[00:31:11] CK: Mm. So you want to do this in service of 'em rather than in service of yourself is what you're saying?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Mm hmm. I mean, even this podcast, right. You know, any kind of media that we make, video recording, writing letters, I think there's an element of self importance cuz I'm important enough to have a conversation with my friend in a public way, so to speak. Um, but I think the exercise itself has its own merit and value.

[00:31:44] Martin: Yeah. Well, okay. So you're, you're making me think about this some more. I think for me there's a difference between a conversation and a soliloquy. Mm-hmm. and, uh, I get a lot more value outta conversations [00:32:00] and I think they provide more value. There's something magical about two or more people talking and interacting mm-hmm.

than, you know, someone writing a mono. .

[00:32:10] CK: Okay. Okay. So let's go down that rabbit hole a bit. Cuz you and I, we talked about how you were a blogger and you were quite a famous one back in the day. And then you, internet famous, internet famous. Uh, and then you realized that it was just lots of talk, you know, mouthpieces talking about things, espousing things.

And once you realize that you stop because you didn't wanna add to the maier of, you know Yeah. Polarized conversations and opinions and so forth.

[00:32:44] Martin: Yeah. So once you start doing transformation work, at least in my case, um, what I realized is that there's a difference between just manufacturing opinion and having [00:33:00] genuine conversations.

Um, like I find the cancel culture today. So interesting because you talk about who's, and I get it, you know, I have the same thing too. Sometimes I will say, this person is X mm-hmm . But the truth is like, do I even believe the stuff? I think I believe, you know, it's like thoughts are so ephemeral and positions you take are so ephemeral.

So, uh, you know, like, let me see if I can exp if I can explain what I'm, what I mean, cuz it's a, it's a little, it's a little hard to pin down. So what I'm trying to say, When you're writing down and you're writing an opinion. Right. So most people, um, like when you, I don't know when, when you were married CK did you and your wife have a foreign policy position?

[00:33:59] CK: [00:34:00] No. I mean not to the place of a position paper, if that, that's what you mean, right?

[00:34:05] Martin: Like your relationship didn't require that, right? Correct. And you guys came up with a, you know, like what was your Hong Kong policy? There's

[00:34:12] CK: a, there's a foreign policy opinion, but not a position .

[00:34:17] Martin: Well, but, and so that's where I'm getting to him, what is even the opinion.

So there's an old joke my dad used to tell me, which is a lot funnier than Yiddish, but I'll tell you anyway. So he said, you know, man was asked, um, so how did you and your wife get along and what, you know, what makes your relationship work so well? And you know, there's a man that was relatively well to do and they had eight kids, eight kids back then, you know, between them.

My dad was saying, right. And he says, um, so they asked him, he says, well, how, how do you guys do it? I take care of the important stuff. Like I figure out what our political opinions are, what we should do about the czar, what we should do about, [00:35:00] you know, these, these very important matters. And, um, my wife decides where the kids go to school and where we live and what we eat, and basically our social calendar.

So, you know, I handle the big stuff and she handles the small stuff, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, most people, like if you're running for senate, you're running, running for Congress, you gotta put out these position papers. And, um, if you really talk to, to those people, and they, and you, you, you talk, honestly, even the most ideological person, they probably only believe, you know, there's, there's maybe three or four things that are super important to them.

Mm-hmm. , and the rest of it is the party they happen to be in. Mm-hmm. . And the, you know, more of it is, okay, so I need a million dollars to win this seat or to have a hope of winning this seat. Mm-hmm. , so, [00:36:00] you know, these people will give me money if I support this position. Well, I'm kind of, I kind of do support that.

And they pretend either they know cynically or they pretend to themselves. Well, you know, yeah. I kind of agree with that. Yeah. You know, they talk themselves into whatever their opinions are. The very few of our opinions. Really strongly held. Most of them have to do with where we come in culturally, where we, you know, like what we were growing up with, what our parents always did, and, and, um, we don't think hard about, you know, a, a, a particular foreign policy issue, like the, you know, the current thing between Putin and what he did.

Like, you may have opinions about Putin, you may have opinions about the whole thing, but you, you couldn't find the, most people couldn't find the area on the map. Most people, you know, like my father's family came [00:37:00] from that area. So I know quite a lot, lot about all the different parties and, you know, I just happen to know a fair amount about that situation.

But when I listen to people give their opinions, I, I can tell they're just waving a, a, a flag, which, you know, I'm not even. , I'm not even saying what your opinion should or shouldn't be. I'm just saying most people's opinions aren't very informed. Mm-hmm. , they're just picking a team and you know, I love to do that.

I love hockey and I love the La Kings and irrationally. I tell you, you know, the kings can do no wrong when they, when they play, there's no no kings that do any dirty plays on the ice. It's always, you know, whoever enemy is the Aden Oilers or the Anaheim Ducks, oh my God, you have no idea how evil those people are.

Mm-hmm. . Right. But the reality is, you know, it's just laundry. As Seinfeld says, we're just choosing what side we're on and, and we're making our opinions. There are a very few things that you feel very strongly about. [00:38:00] So, you know, if you, um, if you have children and there's a particular issue that affects your children, or if you had a particular trauma as a, as a young adult, and then a, a particular issue may make a big difference for you.

So then, you know, you form a an opinion and it makes a difference for you. So, um, boy, we're getting long-winded here where I am anyway. Um, getting back to your point, most of what you're doing is manufacturing opinions. A good conversation is not about what opinion you hold, it's about an interchange of ideas that moves your understanding forward.

And those are the conversations that I want to be having.

[00:38:42] CK: Great. . Okay. So the reason why I even brought that up in the first place is this, um, those could be a origin of an interesting conversation, either offline or the [00:39:00] next quote unquote public conversation per se. Right? So for me, I'm, I'm, I'm with you.

I like conversations. I don't like writing as medium personally, because everything I say requires context and, and if it's, I'm just writing things, I need to arbitrarily set a context, but it takes a lot of work to set that stage, then, then it makes it really challenging for me. Cuz I'm such a Taoist person.

It's, I don't have a black answer or a white answer. It's, it's nuanced. So I needed to set the stage, hence why I don't particularly enjoy the, the writing, uh, medium as an example.

[00:39:42] Martin: Do you enjoy reading?

[00:39:46] CK: I enjoy conversations. More reading from certain people because of the clarity of their thought. And they can say the, the, the economy of words is so precise.

I [00:40:00] enjoy reading those type of people. But otherwise, you know, the signal to noise is way too low for me to read.

[00:40:07] Martin: So you, you enjoy, you enjoy reading, but not writing.

[00:40:12] CK: I enjoy reading, but I en but more importantly, I enjoy the conversation, uh, as a medium and, and how do we, how do we create things, artifacts that allows for more conversation to happen and, alright.

I remember why I asked that question in the first place because when you share artifacts, it allows for having conversation at scale. And that to me ultimately is what culture or what, what, what, you know, uh, company organizations are, you know, community, culture, society, and humanity as a whole. It's just lots and lots of different conversations happening all at the same time.

So, since we love conversations, I was curious to know how, how we could, uh, facilitate, you know, more [00:41:00] fruitful conversations versus just, you know, and jabbing and moving our mouth and moving through life that way.

[00:41:08] Martin: 20 years ago, did you think podcasts would become a thing 20

[00:41:13] CK: years ago? No, because I wasn't even aware of this such a thing, right?

Yeah.

[00:41:19] Martin: What about 10 years ago?

[00:41:21] CK: 10 years ago? I knew it was a thing. I knew that I, I was, I was in podcast addict for many years. Mm-hmm. ,

[00:41:28] Martin: why do you think you're a podcast?

[00:41:32] CK: I was because I was, uh, looking for information and their information that was not shared in a book, because they can also provide that nuance, that context as you were speaking about certain things.

[00:41:47] Martin: Yeah. So I was shocked by how much I love podcasts when I started listening to 'em. Mm-hmm. . And, um, what I discovered, I don't know if this is the truth, but that's, this [00:42:00] is kind of what I came to, is that evolutionarily, um, we have been telling stories. Mm-hmm. for thousands of generations, millennia maybe, maybe a million years.

I mean, nobody knows for sure because, you know, they couldn't record conversations back then. But we've been having conversations. If you look at like, songs were originally conversations right around the campfire and what have you. Mm-hmm. , and we've been writing for a very short period of time, comparatively, right?

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , not even a 10th of how long we've been having conversations and. Who was writing a very minuscule portion of the population. I remember when I was studying mingle literature and, uh, who was it that we were talking? There's one author we were talking about, I can't remember who it is. [00:43:00] Um, it'll come to me.

Anyway, they said at that time, and this was in the, you know, early renaissance, everyone who wrote like the, the author that wrote that book, and anyone, almost anyone that could have read it, uh, in their library, they possessed every, every, uh, book that was available at that time. I mean, some of them were, were destroyed and in fire and what have you, but basically they, you know, just like I've got a library behind me, they had a library and it had every book and you could possibly read.

And of course, you know, you couldn't read every, every book that was written in the US this month wouldn't, would take you more than a lifetime, let alone all the books that have been written. And so our brains are not evolved to read and to, and to take information that way. And reading is wonderful, but we don't get context from reading.

[00:44:00] We don't even necessarily understand the books that we're reading. And that's one factor. The second factor is we, most people have no idea how much language moves. Like, unless you study linguistics, you don't understand. If you've tried to read Chaser and then you try to read Shakespeare and then you try to read Moby Dick, you know, um, chaser and Shakespeare about a, as far away from each other as Moby Dick is from, from Char, from, um, Shakespeare.

You see just how much the language moves. So we think we're understanding certain books, but we're not. So I use Shakespeare as the example because, uh, a few years ago the B BBC discovered, rediscovered the meaning of certain words and the pronunciation of them, and realize that one of the most famous Shakespeare, um, plays was at some of the famous lines were actually [00:45:00] rhyming and we never saw them as rhyming.

Mm-hmm. . And they're, it's actually funny and it's, it makes a whole different, so you might study Shakespeare your whole life and not realize you, you don't actually get this play mm-hmm. , but when you hear a conversation, you get so much of the context. So when I hear Tim Ferriss talk to, uh, Jocko Wilin, whether the conversation had happened 10 years ago, or it happened 10 minutes ago, when I listen to it, I sort of get it and I'm really clear with what I don't get, because if there's a word that's being used differently, I could kind of hear it.

Well, you know, Jocko said the word blah. , but he said it in a jocular way, and we think that word is an insult, so what is he saying? What's going on? So there's just that much more information that your brain processes, and it's a whole channel that, that goes straight into our understanding. We get so much pleasure from podcasts, and even though we're trained that reading [00:46:00] is the thing, it's actually listening is the thing.

[00:46:03] CK: Right. So what do you see as a, as an avid student of learning as an avid teacher or a student of teaching? Um, yeah. You also love transformation as well. So to me, conversations are, you know, great transformational medium, or at least there has the potential to transform someone, even if they're just watching two people having a conversation.

And, um, in terms of amplifying that right, bringing more positivity or, um, more awakenings of the world through conversations, do you see any areas for how conversations can play a role in that using modern te. .

[00:46:46] Martin: Yeah, for sure. Um, I, I've, I've been watching your Noble Warrior experiment with, uh, a lot of interest and you know, like for me, what I've done so far, like I'll, [00:47:00] I'll dip in and out of it and it's like, there's certain conversations that are interesting to me.

Mm-hmm. , so I did a series as, you know, you, you were part of it around what we used to call Corona. Like what is the Covid 19? What she, just trying to understand. It, it was clear that something big was going on and, um, it, it, there are a lot of changes to our world that came out of the pandemic and so I did a series trying to understand it, and then it was done.

Um, I don't, yeah, like, uh, the thing that's so cool about conversation is I don't know where it's gonna go. I don't think either of us had an idea what we were gonna, where this was gonna lead until we started talking. So doing an ongoing conversation series. I have a hard time conceiving about where it's gonna go, but maybe the lesson for me is to let that go and just have conversations with people that I find interesting and people that I love and just trust that it's gonna [00:48:00] go in an interesting place and that people are gonna enjoy watching it.

Yeah. So thank you.

[00:48:05] CK: No, you're welcome. Thank you for being here. I mean, I'm asking that question also, sorting this out for myself, right? I mean, cuz we had talked about how at the surface level and this, it requires a certain level of self importance, right? To two people talking make it public. Like, hey, someone's gonna watch this and find value out of that.

So there's certain level of, of importance and, but you know, I am a believer that there's also certain levels of um, you know, we just don't know what the ripple effect would take. And, and, and we also talked about private, the structural aspect of this, cuz um, doing a live, it's one structure. Doing it in discord is another structure.

Doing it on a video form on TikTok or a short form is another structure or long form on YouTube is another structure. [00:49:00] So what are some of the structures to help hone, cuz this is all energy, this is all conversations happening. And, and how do we create the structure such that it channels, um, where, and guides where this energy is gonna go.

I think it's a, it's a, it's a useful skill. It's a, it's an important skill to curate how this conversation goes or where this conversation goes.

[00:49:28] Martin: Well, I think the conversation. , the true conversation is a long, long form conversation. Right. Um, but I find like even my favorite podcasts, the ones that are long, I, I just can't possibly hear them all.

I just don't have enough hours. So there have been times where I, I'll listen to a Jocko podcast for four hours and I'd be like, I wish they could keep going. This is so interesting. Um, but if you told me, okay, go listen to this podcast. It's only four hours, right? How many four hour podcasts? If I [00:50:00] send you this is awesome.

Are you gonna listen to, maybe you'll listen to the first 10 minutes and if you get enthralled, great. But that's kind of the problem with them. But those are the great conversations. So the short form, uh, using Jocko as an example, um, uh, have you ever heard his little excerpt where he talks about good, you know, when you, you're spo you, you're up for a job and you lose the job, and, and he would also say, good.

Mm-hmm. again, I have more time to hone my craft before I take that level position. Or we're waiting for some certain equipment, some new advanced equipment, and it's not coming good. We're gonna have to get better at bare bones and it's gonna up our skill, you know, just. The reframe. I like that. Right? Yeah.

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. But he's got, it's maybe two minutes and they've said it to music, and so that's not a conversation. It came out of a conversation, right? It's a two minute snippet that's been [00:51:00] reedited. Mm-hmm. , if you, if you listen to the whole, you know, two hour podcast, it's amazing how that conversation arose.

Um, but when you're getting the snippet, you're not getting the conversation. You're just getting, it's like eating the orange versus just getting some freshly squeezed orange juice. It's not the conversation, it's the juice from it.

[00:51:21] CK: Okay. So, okay, so let's talk about that because, um, the, the long form conversation gives context, you know, so you can hear the nuance and the, the short clips gives the, uh, the candy, right?

Hey, here's a sample that's, that we curated, packaged, presented in a nice way. Hopefully there would be the nugget that you've been looking for. So, so is that the, that approach, right? To, to scale conversations or good conversations that, that awakens people, you know, to have long form [00:52:00] conversation with interesting people and then curate package.

Nuggets that we think is useful, and then serve it up like a sampler, like a orange chicken at, you know, Panda Express.

[00:52:12] Martin: I mean, it's really, uh, the snippets are advertising, right? Mm-hmm. , uh, you know, here it's like the, uh, if you go to Costco and here's, here's a little taste of this, uh, Kung p chicken . Look at the African microwave it, or here's this cheese, or whatever they give you, right?

Mm-hmm. . Okay. Uh, may, maybe there are people who just go, okay, uh, you, they go on on a date. Okay, come on honey. We're gonna go to, uh, Costco. And they just go from station to station. Uhhuh , and you know, then they go buy a bottle of wine and they're, they're good to go. I don't know.

[00:52:54] CK: Ra bring back to the spirit of scaling transformation.

I'm just curious, you know, how do [00:53:00] you see it possible to scale transformational experiences through these type of content media experiences?

And by the way, I asked that question because I fantasize, you know, there's a transformational media to be able to awaken, you know, to empower people to live a life of deep joy, purpose at scale. Cuz there's no enough. Time and effort, energy of the day where I can speak to everyone, you know, one-on-one, which is, which is not possible.

So this is my fantasy of expanding and amplifying that

[00:53:45] Martin: I don't know is the answer. Um, I think there are certain times when you can be listening in on a conversation and it hits you that it really transforms something. [00:54:00] Mm-hmm. , sometimes I go to sleep listening to a podcast. Mm-hmm. and you know, it's a very conversational podcast and I realize I'm dreaming and I am talking to the other, I'm part of the podcast.

Mm-hmm. , someone's saying something and I'm replying to the host in my dream. And I remember being very annoyed that the, it seems like the host isn't listening to me. . That's funny. Then I wake up and I'm like, oh, okay, well maybe cuz I wasn't there at the recording. Uh, right. So I bring that up because there's something about transformation that's very personal.

Mm-hmm. and, uh, probably, uh, most everyone in our audience at this point knows what we mean by transformation, but I think it's, well, you can define a if you want. Yeah. So the way I look at transformation is that you have an experience. that, uh, touches [00:55:00] you so much that in an important way you're a different human being on the other side of it.

So when you ask me, is transformational possible transformation possible in this medium, usually transformation is someone is holding a space for you, dealing with a particular question you have and you get on the other side of this question. So you've had a trauma as a kid and you thought that this, try and use an example that's not super.

Um, so, you know, I don't know, let's say a little boy's parents got divorced when he was three years old and um, his father turns, you know, like his father leaves the house. They, they have two separate households and the, the, the little boy thinks that the father is leaving him, [00:56:00] doesn't wanna be in his life cuz he's moving out.

And that's, you know, if he was an adult, he could recon con he would have a different context around it. Right. And so you have a transformational experience where maybe someone else is talking about what it was like when they had to. , uh, leave the shared home and, and they were looking at their kids in the eye and they were, you know, whatever.

And they're going through their experience. And then a person who was a kid was on the other side of it, that discussion. Recon, you know, recontextualizes it for them. Mm-hmm. , and it transforms them where they instead of are in their own place where like, I'm the hurt child my whole life. Mm-hmm. , you can get see it in another side and go, oh, really?

That, you know, my dad actually did love me and didn't wanna leave me. And I just, you know, I was three years old, so I interpreted it that way. But now that I'm 25, I can see that's not what happened. Um, I've seen that happen on a very personal level when someone's holding space for 'em. I [00:57:00] suppose that it's possible that you listen to a conversation and it hits something personal for you, and then you are transformed from that conversation.

Mm-hmm. . Um, but I don't know. That's, that's what I see.

[00:57:13] CK: Yeah. And obviously I wasn't looking for the answer, was looking for a response. Right. It's something that I, I think about a lot, um, because of how I'm passionate about in this type of work. How do we intentionally create content that, um, help 'em shift the way they look at the world, going from burnout to deep joy and a purpose.

as the purpose of the podcast is today?

[00:57:42] Martin: Well, spitballing, I think if you're trying to do it on purpose, uh, the place to start would be the different spaces a person goes through from birth to death and mm-hmm. have conversations around that spectrum and then [00:58:00] people who are going through those, you know, those kind of issues.

Whether that's cuz that's their age or because, you know, that's someone they love, they're going through that age. Maybe that's a, that's, that's a place to start. Yeah.

[00:58:12] CK: Thank you. You actually mentioned it earlier, you had said, you know, your opinion or, uh, response is different if it's a 21 year old versus 45 versus 65.

Right. There are different stages of development one goes through in life or also different life events that happens during those time. You have you, so I found, um, biodynamics to be quite instructive. When you think about stages of development in terms of one's consciousness, is there a framework or that you've either invented yourself or come across that articulate the development stages Really what really, really well?

[00:58:57] Martin: Hmm. I, I've [00:59:00] seen a few. I'm just trying to remember. Uh, . I haven't got a good one off the top of my head for you. I've seen, I've seen some that are pretty interesting. Um, Ooh. Like I've seen some that take a framework like Myers Briggs mm-hmm. , and they map it over time. So if you got a particular way you see people mm-hmm.

um, and then go, you know, like, so a person who's, uh, E N T J will start off this way and then go through these different experiences and this is what typically will happen for them. Um, but I don't know, you know, I don't think that's exactly where you're headed with it, so No, just you think about it.

[00:59:42] CK: Yeah.

I mean, Confucius has actually had something similar you say sunk you. He means, uh, uh, being born, getting old, getting sick and dying. These are stages of development. You said it, I learned it. I just never saw it that way. Like, oh yeah. You know [01:00:00] what wise guy .

[01:00:02] Martin: It sounds so much, so much better in Chinese

[01:00:06] CK: Yeah. Chinese is very succinct. You know, you can, they can communicate something that would take the English language, uh, a paragraph or two or three paragraph instead like a, a single sentence. So, yeah. Um, well, I mean, since we, well, what, what do you wanna talk about next? I, I have things that I could ask you, but, you know, what are some of the things that you see this conversation's.

[01:00:36] Martin: Uh, well, it's a little bit, may not be where you think I, I would ask you, but, uh, I'm curious how being a Native Chinese speaker gives you a different view on the West than maybe some of your friends that don't speak Chinese.

[01:00:57] CK: That don't speak Chinese. Yeah. [01:01:00] We just don't have that. Yeah. Well, we're born and raised here.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, y yeah, EV, anytime somebody asks me that question is really hard to discern cuz fish doesn't see water. So, since I swim in the water that I let, let

[01:01:16] Martin: me, uh, let me distinguish some water for you that will help you answer the question. Okay, great. Thank you. So when I, you know, our mutual friend, yining c Uhhuh,

So when I, it's really interesting for me when I speak to both of you, like you're very different people mm-hmm. , but I love it when I, when I can catch you, either of you speaking Chinese mm-hmm. and like, like you're both very articulate in English and yet when you speak Chinese, there's a like, oh, that's the real ck Oh, interesting.

Yeah. Huh. So, yeah. So, um, like, say the expression when you, when you drink the water, remember? Mm-hmm. who dug the well. Mm-hmm. . ,

[01:01:59] CK: can you say that?[01:02:00]

[01:02:03] Martin: Okay. Say it quickly as if I speak Chinese. Yeah, so the thing about listening to people speak Chinese is it's a tonal language, right? Mm-hmm. , and you can say one sound with a different tone, and it means, you know, one of them will mean wise, man. The other one will say dog shit. Mm-hmm. . Sure. And it's like, I, I'm not using the right example, but you know what I'm talking about,

[01:02:26] CK: right?

Understand.

[01:02:27] Martin: Yeah. Uhhuh. And so there's something about your brain and his brain that distinguishes tone in terms of expression. Mm-hmm. And so when you speak Chinese, I hear a clarity like there's a, there's a whole extra dimension to your communication that isn't there in English. Not, not for any failure in your English.

I understand.

[01:02:51] CK: Yeah.

[01:02:51] Martin: Right. And so I wonder if that extrapolates to, when you listen to people, you hear something in their tones that they themselves [01:03:00] don't hear.

[01:03:01] CK: Hmm, good question. It's something that I actually never really pay attention to. I am very musical. So that's, that's the thing when I hear, so this is one thing that some of my musician friends are really jealous.

I have really good auditory memory. So if I hear a. Once or as it's going, I can kind of predict where the song's going. I can sing along with it. They're like, how did you know the song? Like, I don't know the song. I just heard it just like You did. And like what have basically instant, uh, auditory memory thanks to uh, some of the music trainings and probably, you know, the tonal language of Chinese.

Yeah,

[01:03:43] Martin: yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Like I'm, I'm learning Spanish. Mm-hmm. and my baby is learning English and it's your baby's So ela. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Um, and it's so funny cuz she's making the inverse [01:04:00] mistakes than I am. Right? So in Spanish, uh, if you, and, and it depends whether you come from Mexico or Spain, you know, different.

Don't get onboard you with the details. But when you say I, it's y y o mm-hmm. , but she'll pronounce it So her wise are j . Right? So the way she wants to say yesterday is yesterday. Mm. I went here yesterday. Right. And um, her wises are, are are Js, but her Js are wise, right? Mm-hmm. . So when it's just hilarious and I make the same mistake in Spanish the other way.

And so we're constantly correcting each other and it's, it's pretty funny, but it shapes the way. So when you, um, so do Duolingo and one of the things you do is you just listen to a particular phrase and you've got to repeat it, and then you've gotta [01:05:00] translate it. Mm-hmm. and I sound like such a gringo and she sounds Spanish when she says it in English.

And you realize how much of it, like, when I first first started, it seemed like the person speaking a million miles an hour. That's right. And then as you learn more and more, you can hear that, oh, that's simple. That's what they're saying. But you are trained in hearing things. I'm not trained in hearing because you've got the tonal language.

Hmm. So if you compare Spanish to English or English to Hebrew, there's certain sounds I can make, you know, like my daughter's name is Holly, not Holly. Mm-hmm. the sound. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. But the sound you can't make unless you've been trained to make it. Um, and, and it's similar for things, but in Chinese there's sounds I can't even access, but you could say 'em naturally.

Mm-hmm. and you can hear things tonally. Uh, you know, I wonder about how that shapes brains.

[01:05:58] CK: I mean, this is what we're [01:06:00] discussing here is um, to me a finer understanding of certain things. The understanding of distinctions, the ability to distinguish a very subtle nuance. I think the example they gave is how many ways can you describe snow?

There's only one word for snow in English according to lore. The, the Eskimos has like 16 different ways to say snow. Like, whoa, that's really different. Or certain people can have 17 different ways to say green. So that can actually see the nuances of it. Um, well you

[01:06:38] Martin: even have to go to Eskimo, you just go to people who ski.

Mm-hmm. . They can tell you the difference between powder, champagne, powder, ice pack. Mm-hmm. granular. They've got, I don't remember all the words, but like when you, when you ski and, and you say you've got, you know, champagne powder, you think you're in Colorado [01:07:00] and you know exactly what that feels like.

Mm-hmm. And if you ski in Utah versus skiing in Colorado, it just feels different snow and they've got different names for it. Anyway, I interrupted you. Where were you going with

[01:07:11] CK: this? No, I was gonna say, cuz I've been accused of being very much in my head cuz I love distinctions as you know. Mm-hmm. . And, and then much of the work that we do in terms of transformation is a way of, it's about a way of being rather than just content distinctions.

Can you say a little bit more about that for people who, um, is trying to understand who is addicted to understanding versus focusing on the mind? Uh, fooc focusing on the way I.

[01:07:42] Martin: So when you talk about distinctions mm-hmm. , it's a concept that, uh, once you understand it, you just get it and there's no going back.

So the classic example is when you learn how to ride a, a bike, you learn balance. [01:08:00] There's a moment where you're flailing around on the bike and you don't know, you don't know how to ride a bike. And then all of a sudden you do and you start practicing and you can do all sorts of weird things with a bike, you can do wheelies and you can go move side to side.

And when you've got the balance, it may look like it's out of control, but it isn't. And so balance, you can say riding a bike is a distinction, or balancing is a distinction. And it's a very useful concept because when you're talking about bike riding and you look at someone like if you ever watch a little kid learning and ride a bike, you know, they don't have the distinction balance.

You just look at how, how the bike is moving and how they're moving in concert with a bike. They don't, they just don't get it. Um, so that's distinction. And then when you talk about like how that helps you in terms of moving forward in life, we've got all these different [01:09:00] thoughts and there's a lot going on in our head.

So if we can take a distinct. It's a way to get a handle on your thoughts in a way that, um, allows you to distinguish between different things that are going on and discard the stuff that is not useful in the moment and focus on the part that is useful. So, for example, I talked earlier about rumination.

Oh my God, does that girl like me? Does she not like me? Uh, when you get the distinction, rumination, you're listening to those thoughts, oh, this is just rumination. I don't need to do a fine examination of all the words I said. I can just sort of take that entire piece of what's going on in my head, put it to the side and say, okay, I'm not gonna ruminate.

Now there's, you know, you can make a distinction called action, okay, what are, what actions can I take? So you're going through in your head and you're going through, well can call her up and ask her out on a [01:10:00] date. I can, um, see her in the hall and ask her if she likes me, I can get her flowers. But what if she doesn't like me?

Oh, that was rumination. I'm out of action plan. Let me go back to actions. Right? And it's a way to order your thoughts. So I think that's what you're

[01:10:18] CK: talking about. Yes. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Thank you for clarifying that. And I was saying cuz to me, having distinctions or discernment or different ideas helps to.

As you said, discern, um, what's the appropriate action to take in that moment? So there's value in distinctions. There's also value in just don't think, just do. And to me, the distinctions are proxy or tools to help get you the ideal state that I wanted to be. Right. So I think that's a, there's a balance in that cuz I, I don't know about you.

Personal experience. I need the, the distinction to get to a [01:11:00] place of no thought I needed to do that. That's part of my path of mastery. So when somebody who may be able to elicit a state, a way of being in the moment, and then they tell me, don't think, just do. And that gives me no access to, to actually do it.

Uh, case in point, um, when I was first starting doing this work, I hated when somebody tell me, uh, would tell me, just be authentic. I'm like, what do you mean ? How do you do that? And no, uh, steps, no action plans to do that. So anyways, that's, that's the point. I was mm-hmm. ,

[01:11:45] Martin: part of the issue is that they weren't buying, that you were being authentic when you were mm-hmm.

So maybe you were being authentic and they didn't like it. Mm-hmm. , but. So [01:12:00] when you say, is it useful for you when people say, don't think, just do not at all. Okay. I wouldn't be useful for me at all. So you asked me like, what do I like about the men's work? Mm-hmm. . So one of the things that I learned about it is the how to be better with women that I'm interested in, right?

And, uh, so one of the distinctions that I learned was be bold, right? Be bold is not be a jackass, but be bold. So for a man, and for me, it's get out of your comfort zone. Um, before, before I learned that, I was like, well, why can't she be bold? Or why can't she tell me how she feels? Well, for whatever reason, the way it works really well is if a man is bold.

Now, what happens sometimes when they're bold is they flame out hopelessly, right? When [01:13:00] you're young, you really have no idea whether, um, like you just have no clue whether the person that you're interested in has any interest in you because you're so in your own heads, you're not listening. One of the great benefits of the courses I did around listening was, um, so one of the courses I did that, uh, you wouldn't imagine would make a difference, but.

I took this very advanced course in negotiation skills and, uh, taught you, you know, taught you like what are the, what are the distinctions around negotiation? And there's a whole bunch of them about paying attention to what is important to the other side and what you could do to figure out what they really care about versus what they said they care about.

Right? I couldn't understand now that be important in emotions in, uh, negotiations. So three days after that negotiation skill status, it was in England. I came [01:14:00] home and my jet lag and I went on a blind date. Um, this is not somebody I wound up dating for very long, but I'm, we're sitting down in coffee bean and I'm just like, I wasn't even thinking anything.

I was just, I'd spent a week practicing negotiation skills and I'm just talking to her and I'm like, oh my God, she's interested in me. Oh my God. She's totally nervous. She doesn't know what, like, I'm I, all of a sudden, like it was like this, you know, like I could pay attention to a girl that I'm dating and have some clue whether she's interested in me or not and some clue about what's going on with her if I just get out of my own head.

and you would think like, I took some dating class, or no, it was just a negotiation skills class. Mm-hmm. , how do you, how do you do a corporate deal to buy real estate that makes, you know, that allows you to get 10% better margin on it [01:15:00] and be more successful on your job, but it requires paying attention.

So

when you talk about being authentic or you talk about, okay, don't just think do something. What's more useful is if you have, you give, you give somebody on the don't do this. Great. Then give them a distinction on the other side. Mm-hmm. don't, you know, don't be all in your head. Be bold and you understand what be bold is.

Take a risk, tell, you know, put out there that you're interested in the other person before they tell you they are okay. And you understand you're gonna win some and you're gonna lose some. Sometimes just because you're not so good at this yet, you have no clue where the other person is and that's okay.

Mm-hmm. , right? So now you're doing something, you're learning. Right? If someone told GA taught you what bold was and said, don't stop thinking, be bold. Could you do something with that? [01:16:00]

[01:16:01] CK: Um, it's more actionable for sure. Um, but I would actually say, do this. Right. Here's an example of being bold. Look. , okay.

Right down to the atomic actions that one could take.

[01:16:18] Martin: So in my world, when they're teaching you the distinction, be bold, they're doing all that. So then they turn around and go be bold, but yeah.

[01:16:25] CK: Gotcha. I'm with you. Yeah. So, so you actually mentioned we had a long discussion about risk, uh, lifeness. Maybe we could double click on that cuz you had just mentioned, you know, the ability to take a risk and how important it is to make us feel alive and, um, maybe we can double click on that further.

Sure. Yeah.

[01:16:47] Martin: So imagine you're, uh, a per, let's say you're, you're a girl that's, um, maybe you're in your, your late twenties and you've had, you know, four [01:17:00] serious boyfriends and you go on on a lot of dates and you're unhappy about where things are going. Maybe by this age you've played out all the scenarios.

You're gonna, you know, that you've encountered, you know that a guy that's got this profile, maybe you've dated three or four lawyers and like, you kind of know what the lawyer thing looks like and you've dated a, you've been set up by, you know, variety of your friends. And so there's probably. You know, you've gone on 41st dates and, and maybe five of those turned into something, and maybe 10 of them turned into you're dating somebody for a few weeks and what have you.

And so you, you've got all these really well established patterns and kind of, you know, predictably what your life is gonna be like, and you're gonna settle on one of these people to go forward. So what would it look like to shake up your life and, and be something different? So one thing you could do [01:18:00] is examine, you know, examine your assumptions.

So a lot of women have lists for what they're looking for, right? And they have certain assumptions about who people are and how they are. And by, by the way, we all do, right? Mm-hmm. . And so for her, taking a risk might be say yes to somebody you never would've said yes to. It doesn't mean you need to, you know, go out with 'em for a long time or sleep with 'em or anything like that.

But maybe go on a first date with somebody you never would've otherwise. Take a risk, do something different, um, and learn something about in life, maybe what it looks like is, you know, go do some activity you would never do before. So take a risk, sign up for a marathon, or, you know, like there's. There's something about being at risk that has human beings be alive.[01:19:00]

Now, maybe evolutionarily, because, um, what we've learned is that if you don't take risks, you will, you're less likely to survive if you don't take risks at all, then if you take some risks. And, um, risk taking is kind of programmed into our, our brains and our ways of being. But, um, I found that taking risks is the way to keep, is the way to keep alive.

Like I know you're, you're someone that's become a more of a risk taker. What, what is it that had you start taking risks?

[01:19:40] CK: I'll say risk for me in the very beginning was, well risk. So you want to be as risk averse as possible. But then I had the distinction realizing that, you know, risk is actually has, could have a positive, profitable payoff. So I started looking at it more in the [01:20:00] monetary sense, but I really liked the way you articulate it, risk and a likeness.

Cuz at the other side of risk, you do feel more alive. And I notice looking at my life through that frame, I've taken a bunch of risks ever since I was, you know, five 16. You know, there's some major risk that I took some recklessly, right? In hindsight, not so smart, but some, some, um, you really helped me come alive.

I really love it. So I wast working out. It's working out great. I wouldn't be here have I had not done the taking a risk of, you know, convincing my parents to let me come to the United States by myself.

[01:20:39] Martin: I, I think part of the problem in discussing risk is that there's a set of meanings around risk that are very financial and that are very, like percentage is oriented.

So, tib talks about when he talks about risk in, in the Black Swan, he talks about [01:21:00] how, um, you wanna avoid the risk of ruin, right? Mm-hmm. , your grandmother taught you not to take certain risks because even if there's a, you know, very small percentage chance it, you know, if there's a 1% chance of dying, don't do an.

Like if you say, you know, there one, there better be, uh, if you're gonna take a 1% risk of dying on an activity that you're gonna do a hundred times, chances are you're gonna die from that activity. Right? Mm-hmm. , it's not really risk. You, you, you do the computation that way.

[01:21:34] CK: Expect value. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

[01:21:37] Martin: Well say more about that.

[01:21:39] CK: Oh, expected value. Like what's the payoff times the probability of that payoff happening. Minus, yeah. You know,

[01:21:51] Martin: so if you're, you're good at crunching numbers, you know that, um, just cuz something has a low probability, one way you state it, it's not actually that low [01:22:00] probability when you, when you do the, the full equation, right?

Good MBA students or physics students or, you know, statistics, students know that. But if you're not numbers oriented, when you, the way to think about risk is, um, if, if there's a small probability of me having a bad outcome and I'm gonna repeat that activity over and over again, I'm gonna get the bad result.

It's like playing Russian roulette. You got one bullet, six chambers. Yeah. If I've outta six times, you're okay, but that's too big a risk to take. But let's get over to the side of the risk of the, the good kind of risk. Um, particularly the good kind of risks they take are the things that feel risky, but really aren't a risk.

So for, uh, you know, a young, a young person doing something out of their comfort zone feels like, [01:23:00] you know, it's a big risk. So let's say you're a, you know, 16 year old girl and you are pretty shy, it'd be a huge risk for you to go and go on the debate team and or have to give a speech in front of a lot of people.

So for you, the risk feels like the risk of dying. It's really scary to speak in front of other people when in fact, the risk you, you have zero risk of dying and actually zero risk of anything bad happening to you. When you think about it, how many times have you seen, you know, a young person give a speech and they gave a bad speech?

Did you even think worse of the person? Was it a big deal? I mean, for the person it's a huge embarrassment, but for the audience, like it's, there really is in reality, right? The harsh reality is nobody cares if your speech is good or not, and on the other side of taking that [01:24:00] risk, you're gonna be a different person.

So when we talk about taking a risk, those are the risks that are the ones you should take every time. , right? Should I talk to this person? Well, you know, if you look at them and they seem, you know, there's nothing scary about that person. There's noth, there's, you know, you assess it and you know, there, you're not gonna be in any physical harm, then talk, you know, talking to a new person is a chance to make a new friend.

It's chance to learn new perspective. That kind of risk just feels like a risk. It isn't really a risk. You know what I mean?

[01:24:33] CK: I do, I do. I mean, coming, starting this podcast in my mind was a huge thing, the way I talked about it. Right. And it wasn't until intent, she encouraged me. And I'm very, very thankful for her, him nudging me over to start this podcast being such a enriching experience so far.

So, um, so on that note, learning things in public teaching in [01:25:00] public is for, for some people to be an interviewer. There's very little risk, actual risk. But to actually share your thoughts online for all in the world to see is very, the perceived risk is really, really high. So, as someone who used to share your thoughts to the world, what, how would you, knowing what you know today, what are the actual risk versus the perceived risk of sharing your thoughts online?

[01:25:33] Martin: Um, I mean, the only, the only way. that there's, the, the environment I grew up in there was very little risk anyway, cuz the environment I grew up on, uh, people didn't really so much care what other people thought. It seems like, you know, if you work at, at a company where expressing the wrong opinions can get you in trouble, then [01:26:00] sharing your opinions online, um, can be dangerous if you have opinions that are not in line with, uh, the, you know, the place you work at mm-hmm.

So, you know, for those people, that's a real, real risk. Um, it's losing that

[01:26:17] CK: livelihood. Yep. Mm-hmm. .

[01:26:19] Martin: Yeah. So, um, I mean there's a lot of examples. I'm just thinking of recent ones. Um, you know, just like if you're Elon Mosque and you have, um, opinions that people don't like, well, you have your own companies, you have, you know, a lot of money, so who cares what other people think.

On the other hand, if you work for Facebook and you believe something that's contrary to what your coworkers believe, then you could get fired and you get ostracized. Um, so those are, those are real risks today that didn't, you used to have, you know, when I grew up, they weren't real risks. So you put [01:27:00] that category aside.

Um, and I know for some people that's a big category, but if you put that category aside, what, what is the risk that people are not gonna like your opinions. Okay? People are gonna make fun of you. People are gonna get angry with you. I mean, that supposes first that they watch, you know, like anything I say, first people have to watch it or listen to it and then be offended by it, and then be called to action to do something against me.

So, I don't know. Um, I, for me anyway, I don't see that as a huge issue.

[01:27:33] CK: What about the payoff, the aliveness, the, the possible payoff from learning things publicly, sharing thoughts publicly. Cuz again, you don't do it today, but you did it before, whereas some of the possible payoff that, um, of learning things in public,

[01:27:52] Martin: uh, well, the payoff is that you would meet people you otherwise wouldn't meet, and you'd interact with people and learn from [01:28:00] people that you never would otherwise.

So, you know, like I'll sometimes read some, some people that write for very big publications, and I know them and I, you know, like I know them personally. I've been to dinner at their house, or I've, you know, I can email them or, you know, DM them on Twitter and go, Hey, you know, what do you, what, what's really going on over here?

What, you know, What , everyone's saying X, Y, and Z, but like, what's really going on? Cuz this makes no

[01:28:32] CK: sense to me. So having more access to people, having more access to privileged information is a payoff.

[01:28:39] Martin: That's a payoff. Um, and when smart people interact with you, you learn more. So. Mm-hmm. You know, somebody contacts you said, you know, that's, I saw your whole thing on this and I've got this whole different framework.

You know, one of the things that, um, as you get older, uh, okay, I'll, I'll say it from [01:29:00] my, my, the, my grand master martial arts teacher, his lament is that his teachers have all died. And, uh, you know, he's, he's proficient in so many martial arts styles. There's so little new for him to find mm-hmm. . So he just cherishes every time he can find something new to learn.

Mm-hmm. . And so when you, when you do big public conversations, you know, there may be somebody in, I would have no other, no other way of even knowing they exist. I'll find out about things that are, you know, just amazing. Mm. So, uh, one example for me, one of my passions. Linguistics. Mm.

[01:29:40] CK: And until I didn't know that, that's

[01:29:41] Martin: cool.

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it'll hear me. I mean, you could even hear me like, why did I ask you about the Chinese tonal language? And the whole thing I said about Spanish? It didn't used to be one of my passions, but John McCord started making a podcast about it called Lexicon Valley. [01:30:00] And I started listening to it and I found it gave me a whole new framework about how to look at life.

Mm-hmm. . And I kind of threw the transformational piece on it, and I just got, oh wow. Okay. So, um, I started observing. That's when I would observe you and you and chew and kind of how the way you would talk. And, um, you know, like I, I speak, uh, I speak Hebrew, I speak Yiddish. So when I speak Yiddish, I would ha means that I also understand German.

And so, listening to the way German people express a thought versus listening to how French people express the thought, um, you know, all that stuff is fascinating. And so when I started listening to McWaters Lexicon Valley, I wound up, uh, buying some of his books on Audible and learned all about language families and some really critical frameworks about how I understand the world, uh, wouldn't, wouldn't be there now.

Like I, [01:31:00] I really understand that. . If you grew up in the Roman Empire and you spoke Latin and you know, somehow you were frozen in the ice and you woke up, you know, now, and you say, where's Latin? People would say, well, you know, they started getting church or you know, this, this language. But really what is Latin?

Latin is now French, it's now Italian, it's now, you know, all these different romance languages. To a certain extent it's English. It's, you know, that's what happens to language. And back then they called, it was this thing they called Latin. Mm-hmm. And 400 years later, it's this thing they called Latin. It's not the same thing.

The thing that cha are called English and the thing we call English is different. So I laugh about how British people get all oring and say we speak the real English. Well, you know, you, if, if you had somebody in Chaser's day [01:32:00] talk to you, they would say you, you'd be as incomprehensible to them as, uh, an American would be.

And it's just not the way languages work.

[01:32:09] CK: Yeah. Language ideas, memes, these are all living and breathing things just like, you know, a comet flying through space. You know, things are getting left behind, certain things are getting formed. New ice quiz, uh, you know, ice calls are, are being formed. And, uh, let me bring it back to the whole idea of learning and publishing.

Online. Um, to me, online is a serendipity, synchronicity machine. And if I want to have more serendipities, more synchronicities, whether it's meeting people or learning new things or having new opportunities or, you know, to me these are the, the reward of synchronicity outweighs whatever perceived risk may be.

[01:33:00] Hence why I'm continuing to do this. What's your take on that? Thinking about the internet online as a way to expand one's, uh, resourcefulness?

[01:33:11] Martin: Yeah. Uh, I think the internet is just a different way for us to connect with each other, and it's got all the good and the bad of human beings. You know, like all the things we hate about the internet are things we hate about ourselves and hate about each other.

No, I mean, you look at Twitter, um, I know how to have a big social media p presence. I don't mean intellectually. I mean, there's a way that I, I can be, that's gonna have people follow me, but mm-hmm. and I started doing that when I first started Twitter and I realized I didn't like who I was. Like it cultivates the real asshole in me, the real biting.

I, I can be really [01:34:00] biting and. . Um, and it's in general life. It's something I keep in check. Mm-hmm. , like every now and again, I'll say something really hurtful to people. And, and when I was younger I said it because it was super clever. Like, you gotta hear this. Like, I got a particularly great way of, you know, saying this thing, but mm-hmm.

because it's in person and I could say, oh man, I didn't really mean to like, crush you by saying that. It was just hilarious. I thought I, I've learned to shut my mouth and, and like I will, I will say something biting, but I'm much more careful about how I do that. But I don't have the feet, like Twitter encourages that.

It really pulls that out of you. Yeah. And when I access that side of me, I get a lot of retweets, I get a lot of people following me and I become somebody I really don't like. So my presence in Twitter is mostly, um, reading other people, occasionally interacting with people, [01:35:00] but it's more like, I'll ask a question or, you know, something like that.

I really, um, I don't like who I become and you know, cuz they the same thing about a lot of the social media. So, uh, yeah. I don't know how to solve that problem that we have the great things about scaling. We have the horrible things about scaling.

[01:35:20] CK: Yeah. I don't know because you and I get better at it because you, you and I, we, we talked about.

Um, well, actually, I'll, I'll quote this, this person, I can't remember what I got it from. I, I think it's Ramis Satie or, anyways, one, one of the internet thought leaders out there is that the mistake that people make when they go online is they try to bring the whole self into the, you know, who they are online versus if you want to do it right, just bring a aspect of yours.

I don't remember who it was, it was Diego Forte. He said, the way to be successful online for influence following [01:36:00] and so forth is just really honing in particular aspect of you. It's not inauthentic, it's still you, but it's one cut, one aspect only. What, what's your take on that?

[01:36:13] Martin: Yeah, I, I mean, I think it's one aspect depending on the channel, right?

Mm-hmm. . So I think there's a Facebook U I think there's a LinkedIn U I think there's a Twitter u mm-hmm. . Um, but the algorithms are pulling out that aspect of you. So, I mean, I agree with what, what that person is saying, but, um, there's a, there's what you're pulling for a video medium will pull for something different then, uh, you know, like one of the things famously Twitter started with a very small number of characters.

Yeah. 140. Yeah. And so I think something was lost when it went to two 80, right? Mm-hmm. , because you didn't have to be that clever and that that [01:37:00] tight with your, with your tweets. Mm-hmm. , um, do you remember there used to be this website, maybe it's still out there called uh, a hundred words? No. And their challenge was you just write something, anything in a hundred words a day.

And I did that kind of as a discipline for, for a couple of months. I found that it, it, it, it called for a certain kind of writing called for a certain kind of idea. Um, I, I don't think this is answering your question, but it's kinda where my mind is going. I Okay. What I'll say about social media is that it, the context is the, the, the constraints will form the context to a large degree.

Yep. And you've gotta impose very strong context to be, to overcome what the constraints of a medium will do.

[01:37:57] CK: Yep. Well, what do you think this long [01:38:00] form median that we're doing right now pulls for?

[01:38:05] Martin: Hmm.

Well, okay. I, I wasn't gonna mention it, but, so here's the interesting thing, right? Mm-hmm. , here's how I would naturally talk to you. Mm-hmm. , I'm looking at you. I'm getting the full experience of your face and I'm understanding you a hundred percent. Mm-hmm. for most of this podcast. This is how I've been talking to you, because if I'm not looking at the camera mm-hmm.

the audience has the experience, I'm not paying attention. Mm-hmm. , it actually requires, I'm looking at you out of the side of my eye, trying to get as much of your expression as I can, and I'm trying to be as natural as possible. Mm-hmm. , right? So it looks better. Mm-hmm. , but this feels good and it looks like I'm not paying attention at all.

right? Yeah. Right. Like when you think about it, and I've, [01:39:00] I don't know how much I've spent trying to figure out some way of taking this camera and having it be here when I talk to you. Yeah. Um, and I haven't had that successful. So I've done all these different camera setups with tripods, with anything, and I just, just for Zoom meetings.

Yeah. So that I can have more, like for me, when I'm looking at you in the eye, I'm getting ck There's ck. Yeah. But it looks to you now, like I'm looking you in the eye and I'm just looking at this launch tech monitor or focused on the little, little thing behind me, and it's like, yeah. Okay. So, you know, going behind the fourth.

So what, you know, like what is missing from my conversation on one hand when I'm looking at you, and this is natural versus I'm looking at the camera, but the audience has the experience that I'm paying attention to them. And so whatever artifacts you have out of me talking like this versus talking like this with a, with a plus minus of each way of doing it, [01:40:00] um, that's what this medium is pulling for.

[01:40:03] CK: Ah, I see. Got it. Well, that's partially the question. That's partially the response. By the way, I have an easy solution for you teleprompters and an iPad. So Yeah,

[01:40:15] Martin: I've tried that.

[01:40:16] CK: Well, anyways, as in, because you can actually draw per the person in front of anyways. It's No, no, no. I know. Yeah. So I, there's a, that's how I do it.

Yeah. So if, if that's a solution you're looking for, that's,

[01:40:28] Martin: you know, I figure out Yeah. So there's a, there's a particular camera with a co particular thing and I've, I've tried it and it gives you, um, yeah, I, I get you . So you're looking straight at the camera and you're looking at me now. .

[01:40:43] CK: That's right.

Yeah, that's right.

[01:40:45] Martin: Yeah. So, um, Glenn Reynolds wrote an article on this, he's a law professor. Okay. And he had the exact setup and he's like, this is the teleprompter you used, this is the iPad you used. This is the camera you used the

[01:40:57] CK: software. Yeah. All that. Yeah, yeah, [01:41:00] yeah, yeah. But, but so, so it was that, but not so much what I was looking for.

It's cuz you had talked about the constraints forces, the response. Right. Everything is contextual. So the context, the environment, the constraints that we talked about, uh, 140 characters, a hundred words, gives a, pulls out a different aspect of the person in this case you, so I'm, I was curious to know, in this long form, uh, medium that we now have, we're having a conversation, what do you think it pulls for versus, you know, a 60 minute or a 20 minutes or 30 minutes or one minute engagement with each other?

[01:41:44] Martin: Um, the long form pulls for exploring an idea to its completion. Mm-hmm.

So this conversation is over when it's more naturally over. Mm-hmm. [01:42:00] As like, when you and I have a phone call, um, it usually ends when one of us have an appointment. Yes. He'll just go on and on and on. Right? Mm-hmm. , I don't know what the average length of your podcast is, but you and I tend to have longer conversations and so we don't have the constraint of, of time.

I mean, maybe you need to edit in post or maybe, you know mm-hmm. , the audience can't sit through this much of it, but , but the actual, what it pulls for is, is, um, completion, I think. Mm-hmm. .

[01:42:33] CK: Mm-hmm. completion also. Um, yeah. Exploration of some random ideas, you know, versus, and that's the thing that I, I grapple with cuz there are two parts I know that my audience like, because that's who I am.

The exploration of blue sky ideas. Very philosophical, very esoteric, very nuanced. And there's, there's also a [01:43:00] aspect of me that's all about taking action. What, what's the atomic, you know, habit or a action you're gonna take or a discipline you're gonna have, so then you can go out and gather actual data versus just having an intellectual understanding of something.

So it's the ying and the yang. So

[01:43:17] Martin: what is it that, what about the medium pulls for that? I'm, I'm missing that.

[01:43:21] CK: No, no. And that's what I'm about. But so the medium, the long form allows me to have a lot of spaciousness to go explore and then get tactical, go explore and get tactical. That's the grappling cuz.

I believe there are two types of people. One is they really like exploring two, they really like taking actions. So swimming in this and keeping a good balance is something that, that I think about, but I'm really pay attention to anyways, just the thought. Yeah,

[01:43:55] Martin: but that's not a constraint, that's just

[01:43:57] CK: you, right?

That's just me. Correct. Yeah. Not, not [01:44:00] like it's

[01:44:00] Martin: just you. It's good that it's

[01:44:01] CK: you, but Yeah, I got you. I got you.

[01:44:04] Martin: Yeah. Yeah. I pull for very long conversations. You, you enjoy very long time. I'm about journey. Yeah. I'm more about the journey than the, I mean, you'll always hear me at the end of a conversation.

Go, so what did you get from that? So I want people to pull out, if I'm coaching somebody or what have you, I want people to pull out. So crystallize now at the end of the conversation, what did you get from that? But I won't, I won't force the conversation in, in a particular direction. Hmm.

[01:44:36] CK: Okay. So say more about that.

You don't wanna,

[01:44:41] Martin: conversation is a living thing. So, uh, there's ck, there's Martin, and then there's the conversation mm-hmm. . And it's, it's to borrow a term from something we know, it's, it's a, a third entity. Mm-hmm. , it's the conversation, right? Mm-hmm. . So you and I could be having a [01:45:00] conversation. about taking risks.

Mm-hmm. . And then Chu comes in and we have a third box, and he has different things. So the conversation, it's still a conversation, but it alters a little bit. And then, I don't know,

Judy Gantley and Jen Herda watched this thing mm-hmm. , and they have this own conversation about risk just coming out of the conversation we have. And maybe they record it and you listen to them talk about it in form from this conversation. So the conversation will morph. Like I look at it energetically, and I can say it starts out red and orange, and then Chu comes in and he adds a little bit of yellow, and then Judy comes in, adds some blue, and Jen adds some green.

And now it's a rainbow conversation. Um, and you know, more and more people are having this conversation and all of a sudden, you know, you'll see it on the Today Show. [01:46:00] You know, people are talking about risk. And, uh, those crazy internet kids, I, I don't know where it started, but for some reason people are talking about that.

And all of a sudden you'll hear, you know, whoever's hosted the Today Show these days, talk to a, uh, motorcycle, uh, B M X Rider who does lots of tricks. And they'll, you know, they'll talk about risk that way. And I'll go a whole different way. We wanna talk about, so the way I look about conversations is,

I will. It's more like fluid, more like water, more like a river. So I'll add my piece, but I will, I'll respect the conversation.

[01:46:44] CK: Well, but then you are also an expert facilitator as well. So I guess the heart of that question for at least for me, is how much allowing, how much guidance, how much leadership you take.

[01:47:00] Cuz as a, as a former dancer, myself, I, it's salsa also dancing as you know. You know, uh, how, what we're talking about is how strong of a lead you want to be as a, as a facilitator, I think as a participant, you know, sure, you can just kind of go wherever the conversation goes, but as a facilitator, there needs to be guidance and leadership.

[01:47:25] Martin: Um, I don't think dancing, I mean, there's dancing in the conversation, right? Mm-hmm. , but with dancing, there's, I'm not an expert dancer, so maybe my analogy will be bad. I think with dancing in the beginning, there's a leader and a follower, but at least my observation of like advanced dancers is, it's almost like the follower is anticipating where the leader will go.[01:48:00]

and it's more of a give and take and less of a lead follow. Mm-hmm. . So even if your conversation takes that structure, you know, just like in dance, there's the dance mm-hmm. , and in conversation there's the conversation. So, and, and I think the conversation between two people maybe be more like a dance mm-hmm.

but if you've got five people in the conversation, um, and if you're facil, so you're talking about facilitating a conversation. Uh, the way I look at it is I am the container and the extent to which I lead is the extent to which I take the shape of the container so that the, the conversation may not fill up the entire container, but, um,

[01:48:54] CK: that was very abstract.

Say that again one more time.

[01:48:59] Martin: Let me [01:49:00] see if I can say it in a less abstract way. When I lead a conversation, I am, I'm more like the shape of the container. So allow the, the water to flow into that container. Mm-hmm. . Um, but the container is much bigger. Than the amount of water there is. So this part of the container might feel like a flask, and you can roll in and there's the circular glob to it, and there's a triangular piece here, and there's this whole other piece here.

And maybe we only inhabit the first couple of shapes. There's more shapes to go. So the extent to which I'm holding the space, I'm like, okay, we're not gonna go into this place where the people in the conversation disrespect each other. So that container doesn't con contain that part of it. So that's where I'm issuing in the constraints.

So unless it's trying to devolve into something where people are bickering with each other [01:50:00] mm-hmm. , um, you generally won't, like, I'll be quiet, then all of a sudden that's happening. So the, the part of my container will start shaping the conversation. Right.

[01:50:10] CK: Got it. Okay. So if I'm hearing you, this is my words, my understanding.

So the con container is large, you'll only interfere when it's, you know, bickering or friction or certain boundaries across. Then you step to strongly guide the conversation towards what, what it needs. But otherwise you're minimalistic. You're very, um, yeah, minimalistic is probably the best word to describe it.

Is that correct?

[01:50:41] Martin: Yeah. Hmm.

[01:50:46] CK: Hmm. , does that scale? What do you think? Because I've seen you facilitate a conversation between small group of people, 50 people, a hundred through a hundred people. What do you think about the scalability of [01:51:00] conversations and then, you know, the con the ability to contain that conversation?

[01:51:07] Martin: Um, I don't know.

What do you think? You see me with a large group of people. Does it scale?

[01:51:13] CK: I mean, I don't know. That's, it's, I don't have an answer. Are they good conversations? They were good conversations for sure. But yeah, so I guess the, the question was more around, I know it works cuz I've seen it done up to that level and then what's beyond, right?

Because we also had conversations about thisor, how, you know, conversation just happens a lot more in those containers. And we were wondering the purpose of that and also creating containers for that. And it's hard.

[01:51:47] Martin: So you, you're asking, you're asking questions that I can speculate about, but I don't have answers to.

Mm-hmm. . So, um, so let's say I'm doing a, I'm leading a conversation in person with 60 [01:52:00] people, 50, 50 to 75 people. And are you asking, does that scale? So the thing I don't talk about, but is very much part of the process is, um, I'm sensitive to. So I get a read on what's going on in the, in the room beyond the individuals.

Like I can kind of feel where the group is going energetically. I can do that in like, technology like this. So let's say we had, uh, 75 people on a zoom. Um, this is very weird. If they're all on mute, it's much harder to do than if they're not on mute. Maybe it's something about I pick up on the breathing, like in the room, just, I just really feel the energy and it's, it I can get what's going on in a Zoom kind of thing.

[01:53:00] There's certain, I don't know what it is exactly I do, but there's certain markers that I get what's going on. Um, so if you use electronic means, it gets like, it's harder and harder to get the cues to get what's going on, to be able to hold the space. Mm-hmm. , um, my intuition will help me do that, but it's a lot easier to do that in person.

Mm-hmm. . So that part of it scales more. Is that like answering your question? It

[01:53:31] CK: does. Um, cause one keen interest that I have is the scalability of transformation. And then, you know, you and I, we've been in, let's say Tony Robbins. You know, seminar where he has, I don't know, 10,000 people or something like that.

Was it a transformational event? I think it's for some, not for, not for me personally. It was a really cool transformational rock concert. Right. It's a beautiful experience. [01:54:00] Um, but I also understand because it was 10,000 people, how do you create a transformational container?

[01:54:07] Martin: I don't know. Yeah. I mean, when he did it to 150 people, I know people who did it back then.

It was very much so transformational experience. Mm-hmm. . Um, I mean, I think he does the firewall in part to do that, to scale, right? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And he's got the huge screens to do it to scale, and he's in the room and he's got people walking the room. Um, but I don't know, like, it doesn't, definitely didn't feel like a transformational experience for me.

Um, and I've led some of the exercises that he led and it just, at that scale, it's much better trans, uh, of transmitting information. Mm-hmm. , like I learned a lot. Mm-hmm. and I met the love of my life there, so I got a lot out of it. Mm-hmm. , but I don't, I didn't like, I didn't come out of there [01:55:00] a different man.

Mm-hmm. after that. I think that's what I would see transformationally. , I got 10 to 15 concepts that I still quote and talk to other people about, which were really excellent, but mm-hmm. , I think that's the same for you. Yeah.

[01:55:17] CK: I'm not sure. I mean, it was a great experience. It was cool to see like, okay, there are that many people interested in transformation, and I could see, oh, okay, this, so these are the mechanics of how do you enhance the user experience.

So I get more of the mechanical of operation aspect of things rather than the personal benefit of transformation, if I'm frank about it.

[01:55:44] Martin: Yeah. So that's the same thing. It's like, it's a, it's a cool experience. Mm-hmm. , but transformation is more personal. Yeah. So that's why I wonder about being able to transform through a video, you know?[01:56:00]

[01:56:00] CK: Yeah. Yeah. It is something I, I do think about, I mean the program, well point is now doing a Zoom experiment and according to the architect of that program is going very, very well. I haven't done it myself, so I don't know, but which program

[01:56:20] Martin: point, I mean, they've got point on Zoom. Right. That's what I mean on Landmark and Landmark's doing the Landmark forum on Zoom.

I was very skeptical of it, but, uh, someone I used to work with did the Landmark Forum and they were raving about it online. So yeah,

[01:56:38] CK: I think sometimes mitts remote as well these days. So it's, these are questions that I don't have an answer to, but I'm very keen on like, oh, this is really cool. Now, now you can scale transformation.

[01:56:53] Martin: That's, that's a really cool, but the question is, are they getting what we got? I mean, they don't know any better. Right, [01:57:00] right.

[01:57:00] CK: You have a data point of one. Sure.

[01:57:03] Martin: Right. So from their perspective, that's what it is. Mm-hmm. , but I'm skeptical.

[01:57:10] CK: One last question would be, what's like one thing that you know, you really want to tell whoever's listening to our conversation? What's one thing that if you like, if this is a thing you remember, this is it.

[01:57:25] Martin: Yeah. So if you're listening to this, I want you to think about the people that you love.

like make a list either on your fingers or just you've got a pen and paper, you know, write down the people that you love could give you a second to do that.

And now think about somebody who's not on the list but really should be on the list.

Now you don't know how long, how [01:58:00] many more experiences you're gonna have with those people. You know, you may think you've got all the time in the world, but there isn't anything I wouldn't give to have a conversation with my dad or be able to kiss my mom. And if, if you get one thing from me, it's like, give those people a call.

Go visit them in person. Look 'em in the eye, ask 'em the important questions, tell 'em that you love them. Have no regrets. Make sure that you leave nothing unsaid. Do that for me. That's it.

[01:58:39] CK: Beautiful way to end it. I appreciate you, my friend. Thank you for going to different spaces you, and thanks so much for sharing your wisdom and experiences with Noble Warrior.

[01:58:50] Martin: It's really my pleasure. I'll talk to you soon, ck.