176 Comedian Neil Brennan Gets Brutally Honest About Ayahuasca & Spirituality

[00:00:00] ck: Welcome to noble warrior. My name is CK Lin. This is where I interview entrepreneurs and practitioners about how they master their mind and body to pursue a life of greater purpose, joy, and abundance. In today's episode, we have the creator of three mics blocks, the Netflix special, as well as the podcast.

He's mostly known for being the co creator of the Chappelle show, Hatbake, etc. Please welcome to Noble Warrior, Neil Brennan. Thanks so much for being here, Neil.

[00:00:35] neil brennan: My pleasure.

[00:00:38] ck: You know, uh, one thing I really appreciate about you, specifically about your podcast, really is the honesty of our blogs. And through that conversation, you normalize conversations about them.

We with these, your friends and who are cultural leaders, comedians, musicians, et [00:01:00] cetera. So I'm curious for you, what are some of the, uh, you know, insights that you got from, you know, interview all these people talking about their deepest personal barriers, struggles along the way.

[00:01:16] neil brennan: Um, I would say the biggest one, I mean, the biggest one would probably be that we're all having kind of the same experience just at different times, meaning I have a theory that by the end of life, you will have been every person like you will have been like the breaker upper, the person who gets broken up with the cheater, the person who gets cheated on the thief, the victim of thievery, the, you'll just be everything.

So I think, uh, the one thing that I come away with, it's, it's like, not easy to be anyone. I don't think it's, I [00:02:00] think some people it's very, very difficult, but I don't think it's easy for anyone.

[00:02:09] ck: Yeah. I mean, the fact that you're having these conversation with these larger than life figures, I know they're just your friends, but or the average people, they look up to these celebrities are like, wow, you know, these people are just like us, you know, having these. Challenges, struggles, just like everyone else.

So it was really cool to actually hear, you know, all of you speaking about this, which normalize. Yeah. The thing

[00:02:36] neil brennan: last couple of weeks ago with Jerry Seinfeld saying that he, he hears a voice in his head going, you're not a comedian. It's like, okay, well, Jerry Seinfeld is not a comedian. Then who is? Um, so that's sort of my, my takeaway with all this stuff is like, okay, it's every [00:03:00] that's everyone and I can, uh, the, you know, imposter syndrome is kind of almost being a, you know, uh, a irresistible facet of being alive.

[00:03:15] ck: Yeah, and which again, I so appreciate that. And I know that you and I were talking privately, how for you, these conversations are really, they come from places, your personal curiosity and interest, and the secondary effect is sure. Others listen to this, it may help them. You know, grapple with their own struggles, but your come from place is truly your own curiosity, your own passion about this.

So the case.

[00:03:46] neil brennan: Yeah. I don't think with people, when people ask about the way I do my specials, especially three mics and blocks, um, they're like, are you trying to help people? Not really. I'm trying to, I'm [00:04:00] trying to do a good show. Um, if it helps people. Great. But I don't think that that's a, a, um, it's not a good way to start a comedy show.

Probably not going to be very funny. Um, it might be cute and sweet, but Hallmark can do cute and sweet, you know? So I try to, uh, I just try to make it entertaining and revealing and, um, In some ways, try to tell on myself to kind of stop doing it. You know, those things where people say, if they're, if you're in sort of a chat group with people and you, you're, you're motivational buddies or whatever.

I almost see these specials like that, especially three mics and blocks where I'm trying to point out my issues so that almost like, so people see me, they'll be like, come on, man, I thought you were over that. But, [00:05:00] um, but yeah, so I don't, I, I think, I think it's one thing if you're, if you're trained as a mental health professional to try to, um, help people with their mental health, but I'm, my first priority is a good show.

That's that kind of is entertaining for the audience and I guess helps me, whatever that means. Uh, it helps me in the way I think I need help, which is probably wrong, which is being more honest in public with my own issues.

[00:05:33] ck: I mean, again, I'm not a, I don't want to be a fan boy about it, but I'd really appreciate the willingness and courage to be able to do that.

To me. People who seem like they are from the mountain top, they got all the answers, they are, again, walk on water, to me, for me, there's a part of me that's like, yeah, you know, we're all human, come on, man, are you really that way? You know, behind closed doors? [00:06:00] Versus the people that I really admire is here's all of mine, both the highest self, you know, purpose, and all those things, discipline, and at the same time, I'm still human, and I have all the shit, right?

You know, all the imperfections, just like everyone else, and to me, that's bravery, to me, that's courage, to me, that's You know, truly the embodiment of that versus just like, I got everything handled kind of a thing. I

[00:06:27] neil brennan: mean, I don't, I, I'm, I'm, I agree with you that I try to make it, you know, any of these, anybody who's doing self help, almost all of them have had some article debunking them.

So all the, all the online spiritual gurus and in my own life, it's all sort of anyone who's held themselves out as some sort of pillar of mental health has, uh, quickly been, you know, [00:07:00] Has quickly fallen from the perch that they put themselves on. I don't, I think it's silly. It reminds me of Bill Cosby lecturing people about interpersonal behavior and then ended up being a, basically a rapist.

So, um, I don't, I think it's so hard to run a. It's like the profit margins on our own mental health are so narrow I don't have enough mental health to be like doling it out like here. Here's what you do here It's such a struggle to get myself to do it So whenever somebody goes I or like a girlfriend will be like I change you or i'm gonna change you.

It's like lady Change yourself because it's so hard to do. Take it from me. Who's been doing it for 30 years. The change is so small and incremental and that's with, with, uh, almost a relentless pursuit on [00:08:00] my end. And it was so small and incremental for so long, uh, that the idea that I'm somehow. I try not to dole out any, I don't, I, I don't like it when people are like, you know, you know what I do guys?

And I'm going to, and I'm going to show you, and after this, and here's 10 tips and all this stuff, anyone who does the claps and does this probably is not trained in any sort of mental health. Secondly, I just don't, I, it's, it's too difficult. And I don't like when people grandstand about being, it's, it's this, what I call, um, wisdom theater.

Where everyone does things and they use the right words and they use their hands in the right way and they're but meanwhile They're not like that most of them are I mean half the business people are like Ends up being incredibly controlling and insulting their employees and [00:09:00] underpaying and all this stuff so I my I just try to be like this is what i'm like This is what the people I know are like And here are the things that helped a little bit take, and I've gone to a lot of, uh, 12 step fellowships and the thing that they say at the end of every meeting is take what you want and leave the rest.

And that's how I feel with this stuff is, is I'm in no position to, uh, tell anyone what they should be doing other than I feel like I am in a position I feel as a human being. I'm in a position to say, stop telling people the secret to life, unless you've been doing it for 25 years. Yeah. And then everybody, everybody else is struggling.

[00:09:53] ck: And that actually, to me anyway, cause I mean the personal development industry, I know you kind of make fun of the whole [00:10:00] profession of coaches. I am. I sure do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all right. It's a brain on, right. It's all good. But from my own coaching journey, the whole idea of coming from the mountain, Don't work and from an outsider perspective, the way you share about your personal story.

Hey, here's my struggle. Here's what I did. Here's the outcome. Try this. It helps you great. I don't

[00:10:25] neil brennan: even say try it. I don't even say try it I don't I really don't like if no because I don't I don't know what's gonna work for i've done 15 things So first of all, I don't know if the 15th thing only work because I did the 14 before them I don't know what's going to work for an individual.

I don't know what their psychological profile is. I don't know what their financial profile is. There's so many intangibles that I don't, you know, I think all you can say is like, here are a bunch of [00:11:00] things, here are things, Even with medication in therapy, they don't know why SSRIs work. They don't even really know what they're doing.

They don't know what SSRIs are doing. They think they're leaving serotonin in the brain longer and da da da da da. But they're not sure. So I'm not gonna, I can't very well. In good conscience, CK, um, prescribe what anyone should do.

[00:11:35] ck: Yeah,

[00:11:35] neil brennan: I really don't. I mean, obviously there's like foundations of like, be, you know, be motivated and don't be lazy and, and, uh, you know, pursue your dreams.

But I don't, I don't know what the, first of all, I don't know what the right pace is. You know what I mean? Like I can't say like if you play video games, you're never gonna I don't know Maybe video games help you unwind. It's like there was [00:12:00] a study recently and again even saying that there's a study most of these studies are not replicated not replicable and They're done by grad students and they did in a focus on in a sample size of six people so even saying it's a there's a study it's like a little nonsensical, but um, so I don't know You What anyone should do, but I can say, I can say what I've done.

And if you, if you feel like I, I, it had many things have helped me, but I don't expect the very, the most helpful things that I've done, which is ayahuasca, You know, MDMA is, is pretty predictable and stable. Iowasca and DMT are not, and I cannot in good conscience go, you know what you got to do [00:13:00] some lady or some guy, this incredibly volatile, terrifying thing I did.

It worked for me, but like, I can't go, yeah, you should go off the, go off the side of Niagara falls in a barrel. That's what I did work for me. You should. So that's the thing is I can't really. I can't really, uh, tell anyone what they should be doing and if I do

[00:13:27] ck: that,

[00:13:27] neil brennan: don't listen to me.

[00:13:30] ck: Well, that's actually another thing I'd really appreciate about you is you respect people's agency so much that you really try your very best not to even prescribe anything, even though he may help you to fill 14, 15 things that you've tried.

So speaking of ayahuasca, we'll have a common passion for it. Yes, sir. I know that you, uh, Try not to prescribe it, but almost every podcast conversation inevitably brings it up and you have certain passion [00:14:00] and intensity behind it. So why specifically? But I

[00:14:04] neil brennan: always say with a caveat, I always say with a caveat, like, don't get me wrong.

It's very volatile. And very dangerous. And I'm, I'm, uh, we're not worried. I'm a little concerned about the Pandora's box effect. That's happening culturally where everyone's like, it's a gold rush. And you're like, a lot of people got hurt in the gold rush. So what I would, my thing with ayahuasca is it's been amazing for me.

But I also couldn't, I don't know exactly what did what. So, you know, so it's been great for me, full stop.

[00:14:48] ck: So to say more about, I know you've said it in other places, but you know, just for the sake of my people who may not have heard you. Why are you so passionate about it? Like, what has it done [00:15:00] for you?

You know, what was the before and then what was the after?

[00:15:05] neil brennan: Well, it's, I would, I almost need to put it all. It's been like four years of, uh, or three and a half. Yeah. Three and a half years of, um, Of, uh, ayahuasca probably 15 times and then DMT, 5 MeO DMT once, which kind of exploded my consciousness in a very terrifying way.

That was, it was about an eighth month, eight month recovery, give or take, and, and then MDMA. In the last year has been really transformative. Uh, basically I was, uh, I was sort of, I would, I would say I was probably caught up in feeling bad all the time and caught up in the narrative of victimization [00:16:00] and, uh, anger and grudge holding.

And that slowly I, and I was an atheist now, I believe in a central creation force. And, and yeah, so, and that happened via ayahuasca, 5MAO, DMT, BUFO and, um, and MDMA. And now I would say I'm a better person overall. I'm happier. I'm better at comedy, which is fucking hilarious. Um, more popular. Wait, wait, why is

[00:16:34] ck: that hilarious?

I don't get it.

[00:16:37] neil brennan: Because, uh, I'm 50, and I already did, and you're not really, it's not the way it usually works for people. So usually it works like, you start when you're 20, and you get grade around 29. And, uh, it usually, yeah, so I guess I am right in that it takes 10 to 15 [00:17:00] years. But, and it did take me 10 to 15 years to get very good at it, but.

But, um, but I got better in the last year and a half after the Bufo, uh, which is an odd, it's just an odd thing. And people can tell visually, meaning the amount of people that's like the amount of people that watch my new special on Netflix called Crazy Good is almost double the amount of people that watch Blox.

Hmm. In the first week. Congratulations. So, and that's not, thank you. Yeah. So that's, so that's, there's no real, uh, it's not like I heard a joke and changed my mind about you. They can eyeball it and that's insane to me. So that's the sort of thing that I'm dealing with. It's like dealing with, uh, or I've been privy to, or I've, I've, uh, I've [00:18:00] been, That's been, it's definitely a gift.

And it was a, you know, it was a tough, the gift was a little tough sometimes. Um, it was a little tough to comprehend being in the five MEO aftermath. Um, and then the. MDMA in the last year has really gotten rid of a lot of, um, excess. I, the word trauma is overused, but I just had stuff in my body that I would yell at therapists, like this is in my body and they, um, it, the, I believe the MDMA kind of got it out and maybe a little bit of ketamine.

Again, I've done so many things that it's hard to know what did what, but I, you know, I guess the. I just didn't stop trying things. It's always felt like I'm not, this isn't the way I'm supposed to feel. I [00:19:00] know I can feel better. Like I, I know like there, and part of it was probably ambition of like, I want to have a shinier life, but the, what I didn't realize is my life was already incredibly shiny.

I just couldn't see it. And I was like incapable of seeing it. I was focused on, you know, the ways in which I was, uh, being given the short end of the stick or the, you know, life's not fair or why does this person or why does that person, and, and I said this on Joe Rogan, I'll say it here. The, um, it's good enough for Joe Rogan.

It's good enough for CK. Um, the, uh, yes. Yeah. Um, the, I said, I used to think life wasn't fair. And then it turns out I was right. Life's not fair. No one's life should be as good as mine. It is unfair, but it's unfair [00:20:00] in the totally opposite way than I thought it was. It's unfair in my direction. And, and it took me all that stuff to kind of come to that conclusion.

And again, I should say it wasn't a. I cannot say that I did it through yoga and meditation. I did it through these, you know, medicine experiences and it was kind of taken out of me, I, I guess I invited it out, but I cannot, somebody was like, why don't you, you know, focus on all the stuff you've done. And I was like, because it's barely mine, if there's nothing to take credit for.

You know, it's like it, it, I put myself in a position to change [00:21:00] and it changed. The thing in me changed. I can't say that I like, and I remember wrestling it to the ground and I said, Lee, it just left. So, so I, you know, I can't say like I read 10, 000 books and then I, and I, and I'm having to, I won't, I don't believe that I took the easy way out.

It was, it was, it was very trying. But, but it was, it was, you know, things change suddenly and then all at once, kind of.

[00:21:32] ck: Well, congratulations. For those who are familiar with the medicine path, uh, they know that it's not an easy path. You know, people have the illusion like, oh, I just take this silver bullet, penicillia, everything will be great.

But actually it takes massive amount of energy, intentions, effort to face whatever we got to face on Pandora, whatever is in the Pandora's box. Yeah,

[00:21:58] neil brennan: and the thing of it is, it's, [00:22:00] I can't even say that I faced a particular, you know, there was no one. I mean, the, the Bufo experience, 5MAO DMT, AKA Bufo Alvarez was terrifying, but it wasn't.

You know, I didn't come face to face with a demon or my father or my uncle or my grand, you know, was none of that. It was just, it was, it, the, the, my, uh, consciousness was totally rattled in a way that was very terrifying. And very, very hard to comprehend. And, um, so, so yeah, like even the idea of like, it's trying in a way of like intention and all that stuff.

I just kept doing it feeling like I can feel better than this. I know I can feel better. I know this shouldn't, I'm, this is a waste of my life, the way I [00:23:00] feel. So I just kept pursuing it and pursuing it with that. I guess that would be the intention, but there is something selfish about that. You know, you know, it's like I wanted to be in the VIP, so to speak, and not even the VIP, not even the VIP of, um, you know, cool people, I meant like VIP, like people that are enjoying their life and experiencing love and experiencing.

A fuller range of emotions. That was always my, my goal and experiencing more joy, which, you know, again, not, it is, it's not altruistic. I wasn't then, and then I'm going to spread it with, I'm going to take the joy and I'm going to spread it. It was like, no, I don't want a joy for me. The, cause I felt like I, there's a emotion that I just don't experience.

So that was more of the pursuit. So, so I, you know, it was selfish. Now having, [00:24:00] uh, now I would also like say like, I think that's, I personally think that's okay.

[00:24:06] ck: You

[00:24:06] neil brennan: know,

[00:24:07] ck: so what you just said, by the way, and you know, just FYI, you may not know much about my journey or my personal experience, but what you described is very much my as well, very accomplished academically, professionally, all these things, but I couldn't feel anything.

I didn't have the joy. I experienced numbness. I was like, Whoa, this is, this is, this is not what I want to feel. I don't want to spend the next few decades of my life feeling this way. So I kept pursuing these paths. Uh, my background is a biomedical engineer, PhD from UCLA, worked with the university of California, all these things, blah, blah, blah.

Right. So the path I ended up, shamanism, jungle medicine is like the total opposite of what I was trained to do. [00:25:00] So, yeah, very much appreciative. Same, same, same breakthrough, right? These barriers slash dragons slash saboteurs through the process dissolve. And then

[00:25:15] neil brennan: I didn't experience any of that. I didn't experience any of that.

Saboteurs, dragons, none of that. I didn't, no, I, there were no, there was no direct, um, you know, conflict that I came face to face with. It was, it was more like I'm alive in a human consciousness that I don't quite understand right now. And it was, it was really scary, but it wasn't, it was, it was scary in that, like, I thought I, I told someone I was aiming for God and I missed my stop, like it was dicey.

So, so yeah, I can't say that there were [00:26:00] any of the, any of the, any archetypes in terms of like Joseph Campbell or something, you know?

[00:26:07] ck: Yeah. And then it's all good, but you ended up finding that soligria, the joy that you, that was already in front of you, you just didn't see it. Right. Yes. No. Yes. Yeah. And that's my experience as well.

One of the realization as like, wow, I'm so blessed. And, you know, to your earlier point, life is unfair and it's in my favor. That is unfair. I finally got to see that versus just, you know, my inner critic criticizing why I don't have the gap and this and that and comparison and all these other things. So

[00:26:40] neil brennan: Yeah, and I don't even be and that is the that is the trap of gratitude or the it's not the trap of gratitude I think people go I don't want to be grateful I mean i've seen people react to me talking about gratitude a few different ways One of the ways is like I earn what I got.

Okay, so I don't want to say that i'm lucky It's [00:27:00] like did you earn what you got 100 million record pop singer? Did you earn it or did you just get a voice and then like get a physical voice and then you're good looking and then you pursue, uh, uh, uh, you know, a job as a pop artist, I'm not saying you didn't, it wasn't difficult.

I'm just saying that's a heck of a hand to be dealt. It's like, if you're dealt, uh, two aces and two Kings, and then you discard one and you get a King. Yeah, it's. You did play the hand well. You didn't play the hand correctly, but like you, but the hand did a lot of the work. And then the other one is people think that if they're, they don't want to be publicly grateful because they're afraid that people will come on down on them.

It's like, you know, what's cisgendered and all that stuff that you're, [00:28:00] you have to constantly be aggrieved on social media for people, uh, for, for to not get yelled at.

[00:28:10] ck: So I'm curious, Neil. So, but I

[00:28:12] neil brennan: don't care.

[00:28:13] ck: Yeah. Great. I, I love, I love, I love your, what would be a word to describe it? Well, the, the lack of caring about how, but you are just expressing your

[00:28:25] neil brennan: Well, I do, I, when I say I don't care, I, I, it's like it must be done and I can just stay out of the comments and, uh, I'm not gonna, it seems ungrateful to have the life I have and constantly be like.

spitting and cussing and And gesticulating like what is this? Because there are people that are starving. I you know what I mean? Like every problem can't be my problem I think appreciation is, uh, must be [00:29:00] given.

[00:29:03] ck: So you've been quite public about your ayahuasca experience, psychedelics, you know, MDMA and Bufo have others come to you and say, Hey, you know what? I wanted to experience this for myself as well, whether it's. People who are in your audience or people who are your friends, celebrities, et cetera, what are some of the aftermath, you know, sort of behind the scenes as you,

[00:29:29] neil brennan: yeah, a lot of people ask me about it.

I mean, the, the good and the bad news is like a lot of people ask about it and then, you know, very few follow up because it's scary and, uh, it's difficult and it's totally unknown. It's, it's categorically. Different than anything I've personally experienced in human life. So I can't, you know, so people go, yeah, man, they come at like, I want to do that.

Like, it's like, I want to go, uh, I want to go to Machu [00:30:00] Picchu or I want to go to Hawaii or I want to go to, you know, Nepal. But then once you go, okay, here are the flight times to Nepal. You gotta, you gotta change three flights and it's gonna take, you know, 36 hours. And then once you get into the specifics, generally speaking, 90, 80 to 90% of the people kind of fall off.

[00:30:28] ck: Well what about the 10%? Which fine. Yeah, but what about the 10%?

[00:30:32] neil brennan: Uh, yeah, the 10%. Some have had, uh, some have enjoyed it, some have, uh, yeah, I've had friends that. That have really, that have gotten a lot from it and have done it. You know, uh, numerous times, um, I've had friends that were like, did it once or like, nah, I've had, you know, I've had like the full gamut [00:31:00] of experience of like, I didn't like it and I didn't like the group.

I didn't like how it made me feel. I didn't like, I got sick. I, you know, so there is no, I don't have a. overnight success story for anyone, uh, or, or of anyone that, that I've recommended, like, and I changed their life. I haven't changed anybody's life, but, um, but you know, it's, I stand by my experience for sure.

[00:31:33] ck: You feel that more and more celebrities, people with some kind of fame talking about this. Is helpful or like, nah, that's just another thing to talk about.

[00:31:45] neil brennan: Well, there's a thing in 12 step groups that you're not supposed to talk about it publicly.

[00:31:55] ck: Oh,

[00:31:55] neil brennan: really? Like if you're in, yes, yeah. If you're in alcoholics [00:32:00] anonymous, you don't say I'm an alcoholics anonymous.

And the reason is very obvious once I tell you, because if I'm a celebrity I say, I'm an Alcoholics Anonymous and I've been sober 11 years and the program works great, and then I get busted for a DUI, then everybody goes, Oh, hey, hey, don't work. Um, so with, you know, with ayahuasca, I often wonder like, am I, should I even be talking about it?

Um, because. You know, I just don't know, honestly, I don't know if I'm a good exam. I don't know if I'm a good exam plot. I don't know if, uh, I think people will look to discount it if I, if I'm a jerk or if I'm, if I say a [00:33:00] joke, they don't like, or, you know, they'll blame it. So, so I don't, you know, or if they, you know, people don't like when I say like, I was an atheist and then I did drank this medicine and I, and I no longer have an atheist.

Um, they're like, yeah, but that could be anything. Okay. I, I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying that's my understanding of what happened to me, but I'm not mad. If you don't, I don't need you to eat meat. I don't, I'm, I don't have a different opinion about homosexuality. I don't, I'm not. Yeah. Uh, proselytizing for any of it.

Um,

[00:33:38] ck: sharing your

[00:33:38] neil brennan: experience and, yeah, exactly, and, and, uh, you know, it, do, am I getting the word out? Maybe I just, I just think it's, I think with certain things there is a real lack, especially in mental health. I think there's [00:34:00] a real lack of information and because if you go to a therapist, they're all Freudian.

They, no therapist tells you, Hey, you know, there's 15 different modalities. You could do, you know, CBT. You could do, uh, Freudian. You could do Jungian. You could do, uh, somatic. You could, they don't tell you. They just go, you want a car? I sell cars. They don't tell you, they sell Volvos. So, I would say the only thing that the thing that I would, uh, not even, not like anyone's assailing my, my, uh, public publicity about all this stuff is there's just, I didn't know about a lot of this stuff until I saw it on Reddit and, and then with ayahuasca, there was an article in the New York times.

That a friend of mine sent me and, you know, so is the New York times responsible, irresponsible, you know, it's like, I don't know, I like, [00:35:00] I, the truth is, I don't know. And like I said, thankfully I, uh, or hopefully I continue to caveat it with for me. It's worked for me. Doesn't work all the time. Doesn't work.

Ah, ah, ah, ah.

[00:35:17] ck: You know? Yeah. I mean, one thing that's for sure that you do a lot is you provide a lot of qualifiers and caveats. It's for me. Yeah. It's almost aggravating. Every conversation I have with you, there's also just lots of qualifiers. Hey, you know, how's your experience? Yeah. Yeah. It's great. And it's for me.

It may not work for you. Well, that's

[00:35:41] neil brennan: it. Yeah. But that's the thing. That's right. It's because coming from comedy people, I will post a video on the, on the Instagram from a Netflix special. I've been paid multiple times. And I'm like. And then people write, this isn't funny. And it's like, dog, [00:36:00] a thousand people.

You just watched a thousand people laugh at it. And now you think your personal opinion is the authoritative opinion about what is funny. So I, I feel the same way about all this stuff. It's for me. Uh,

ayahuasca is funny. It

[00:36:24] ck: is funny, actually. It's, it's, it is very funny. I personally. I think it's the funniest when your head's in the bucket that, that is, that is the, the opportunity for the solar grid yet in my personal opinion and my personal experience again, qualifier.

Yep. Yeah. Great. So what about, I know that part of the theme of your podcast, more and more you ask, you know, especially in the Jerry Seinfeld episode, which I listened to, by the way, it's amazing. You ask him multiple times about spirituality. And then he was like, yeah, I didn't really want to talk about it in so many [00:37:00] ways, in my opinion, he doesn't, he

[00:37:02] neil brennan: doesn't really see it.

Yeah. But he ended up sort of spilling the beans with the, uh, sometimes I wonder if I planned all this, you know, um, where he said, like, I look at my life and I'm like, did I pick this before I got here? Cause it's really, really suits me. Um, yeah. And I, and I don't, I don't. With Jerry, it was more like I'm trying to figure out what he's getting at.

And that, that was, that was the, the, the, uh, my sort of predisposition for him in particular, but I don't, with some people, I don't mention it at all. Some people I, I, so, so yeah, like, um, cause I couldn't even tell you my own spirituality. I mean, I could like tell you, but it's not, doesn't fit into, uh, it's not Christian or Jewish or Buddhist or whatever.

It's kind of nothing. [00:38:00] I mean, it's kind of, it's not, I think of religion as, uh, franchises like, uh, you know, five guys and Burger King and McDonald's and all of a sudden that's basically like the world religions just all took a region and, uh, and there that's the, that's the God franchise. In their region because if you it's like if you look at judaism and islam It's like it's like watching a romantic comedy where they're both dating the same guy Where you're like, wait a minute.

So both of your holy sites are the same And you think it's a different god, okay So you're both dating a guy who lives at the same address probably a different guy That's right. Keep fighting everybody So, yeah, I just feel like that's all human intervention. Religion is human intervention and, uh, a [00:39:00] spiritual connection.

It's just something it's like an ineffable thing, you know,

[00:39:07] ck: for me, Bruce Lee said this best, you know, he said religion to spirituality or to God is like the finger pointing at the moon. Look at the moon. Don't look at the finger very much to your earlier franchises. Yeah. Yeah. Yep, how would you I think mine's

[00:39:26] neil brennan: better.

I think mine. I think mine is better than Bruce Lee's. I'm gonna be honest with you Well, it's definitely not Bruce Lee. Not funny at all Bruce is not funny at all. Mine's pretty funny. Mine's not hilarious, but it's not bad so Uh, yeah, sorry, what were you gonna say?

[00:39:45] ck: So, so how would you articulate your, you know, brand, your relationship?

[00:39:51] neil brennan: I, the truth is, I don't know. The truth is, I don't, I, I feel, well, I, here's what I'll say. [00:40:00] It's, uh, Jerry Seinfeld talked about having kids and it was like seeing sex from the other side. And what he meant was that there's an invisible world That, you know, that, uh, that medicine can be a portal for, you know, it'll be a portal to get you into the world.

And, um, and that's how I feel now. I feel like I don't, I take life way less literally and I take it more, uh, like, yeah, this is what I'm seeing, but I think that there's, there's a significantly more that I cannot see.

[00:40:52] ck: I mean, I'm trained as a PhD scientist, so before ayahuasca, not so much of an atheist, but [00:41:00] definitely more agnostic, right? If I can measure it, if there's no data, it doesn't exist. And then I had my first cup 45 minutes in had my mystical experience and like oh, how wrong was I? How hubristic how arrogant was I to think that if a human being you know, what's funny is

[00:41:17] neil brennan: I I don't think that you're hubristic.

I think if I like when I had the same experience, I just went like oh, okay I was not given any What I could Feel as proof So you understand? You I, I, you know, central creation force, this is how I'm oriented. I was given, I wasn't given proof there. And then I could argue like, and not like I wasn't given proof.

I was, I didn't have the, um, nerve endings to sense it, you know? So. Once I, once those nerve endings either came about or [00:42:00] I, or, or the, my dulled nerve endings could sense it more, uh, profoundly, then I was like, okay, I would just needed something, you know, it's like, if God, if you exist, knock twice. And then nothing happens and then, and then at a certain point you drink ayahuasca and you hear two knocks and you're like, Oh, all right, well, yeah, no, that's what I just needed something.

So you won't, you'll get, you won't get a, you won't get any time for me again.

[00:42:32] ck: Um, so you never use this word, but what I'm hearing you say in your journey so far is, is a faith. I don't use the

[00:42:43] neil brennan: word journey other than, um, jokingly.

[00:42:48] ck: Well, faith, right? Because you kept at it, you believed deeply in it for yourself, I want to feel differently than what I'm experiencing. So you kept trying different modalities and different things.[00:43:00]

How do you, how do you think about faith for yourself in this connection, this, you know, spirituality, divine,

[00:43:08] neil brennan: I don't, again, faith implies faith implies, um, a belief in something that I can't, I'm taking some sort of leap, logical leap on. I'm not taking a logical leap on. It's like, it would be like saying I'm, I'm, uh, I'm gonna take a leap of faith that the temperature in the room I'm in is room temperature.

There's no leap of faith there. It's what I, it's probably around 73 in this room. I'm not like I'm, and I'm, the problem is once you start killing people and making laws and all this stuff and like rules and you can't have sex this way at this time. With this meal and all that's that's where it just gets [00:44:00] silly.

I don't, and I don't, uh, I don't need anyone else to believe, uh, agree with me. I just can't pretend that I didn't see or I didn't experience what I've experienced and that I'm, and the great news is I've been able to carry it with me. It's the, it's like a good grudge. Um, it's a grudge that I carry with me, but it's positive.

And, uh, and, and like, I'm like, I'm still, I'm still like, still good. Matt, I'm mad, but good. I'm like, I'm still that thing happened and I can't, my body won't forget it.

[00:44:48] ck: You, you, yeah, the way you put words together, I've never heard a, you know, the way you articulate it. This is like a good grudge. That's, that's definitely provocative.

Thank you. [00:45:00] Yeah, yeah. Okay, so on that note, how do you integrate all of these realizations, insights, into Your life outside of the medicine, outside of ceremonies, outside of the school include journeys. I know you don't use that, that word often, but how do you, I mean,

[00:45:18] neil brennan: I almost say, I want you to keep using journey so that you don't, you're not you in particular, but that self help community doesn't ruin other words.

Cause if they, because if you don't use journey, then you have to use process and that'll take eight months to ruin process and then we'll be out of words. Um, uh, The, I mean, you know, again, people say like a lot of the works integration, I don't, I, because of my job, which is basically just thinker and talker, I get to just think all the time.

So. I, I'm always integrating. It was just, again, it was supposedly [00:46:00] integrating bad grudges. So now that I finally have a good grudge, it's, it's, it's more, I mean, I, I keep, uh, I, I, I write in a, I do more gratitude checklists. I do four of those a day. Ideally, sometimes it's only two, but I do four a day. I've already done one today.

And, uh, where I am, it's 1040. So, um, but if you haven't done like, I just do a checklist of things. Um, that I feel grateful for and, um, It was at the beginning. It was more like, you know, material things like money and cars. I'm kidding. Uh, all my, all my hot rods. No, I don't have any hot rods. Um, the, uh, it was more, you know, money and, and success and, and, and, and now it's things it's, I'm thankful for mind shift changes.

[00:46:57] ck: Um, [00:47:00]

[00:47:00] neil brennan: uh, or I should just say mind shifts. I'm thankful for mind shifts. I'm thankful for different understandings of my own life. I'm different consciousness, peace, love, gratitude. Like, you know, it's like, I, I think of it as a, you know, my life, I think I, because of the changes that have happened, I think of it.

I'm grateful. And I've been ending my checklist with like, thank you so much. I love it. Like it's a gift i've been given i'm like, oh my god. Thank you so much for this life. I love it instead of like just constantly like Yeah, it's good. But what about the no, I love this is so great. I'm not gonna be given a gift It's like a friend of mine.

I who complains a lot and he's a he's a very popular comedian and uh, he used to work In la in long beach, there's a there's [00:48:00] an old boat an old like steamliner called the queen mary That's in long beach and they there's a restaurant there and my buddy used to be like a waiter at the queen mary 15 years ago, and now he's very successful comedian and podcaster and and uh, And he's a big complainer and I always say dude if i'm god I hear you complain and I go, wait, is that the kid from the queen?

Mary? Didn't we give him the everything package and he's still complaining? And then the punchline is, all right, give them cancer. Um, but, but the, but the, the, uh, so, you know, like, I, I'm just, I, I'm, I'm, I'm more in terms of integration, it's just keep a, uh, almost get like a, Like [00:49:00] when they go to a pool with like the pH thing, if you do that, like once a day with like what your inner monologue and your inner feeling is, I think that's a good way to, to do some integration.

Just, it's just, it's all, we have to diagnose ourselves for the most part. So in terms of like integration, I think self diagnosis is probably the, maybe a better. way to, to, um, say it and, or just, and then try to remember the stuff that you were thinking and feeling when you're on medicine or whatever your, whatever your thing is, you know, or in prayer or, or in nature or whatever, like try to, again, try to good grudge it trademark

[00:49:49] ck: trademark verb, verb, it, verb, it, um, So actually on that note, it reminds me of something that a dear friend of mine said to me during his ceremony he did last [00:50:00] weekend.

He said that it was a struggle, it was quite challenging, but his mindset around it is Hey God, if you think this is what I need, give it to me. Right. Thank you so much for giving me whatever it is that I needed, which was actually quite enlightening for me personally, because if it's too much, I was, I would ask for mercy, like, thank you, but you're like, this is too much versus for him.

He's like, thank you. Bring it on. Let's go. Right. I, if you think this is what I need, give it to me. So to your point, you know, this whole gratitude thing, whether it's good grudges or maybe the not so pleasant things. I love that you're, you know, treating this gratitude.

[00:50:44] neil brennan: Well, it's also another, yeah, it's another thing.

Like if you go to a good restaurant and it's, uh, No substitutions, the menus, the menu life is kind of like that. Like, no, this [00:51:00] is it you want it or not. Like, you know, it's like you want better for better for worse for, you know, all the things do you want, you know, you can, you can change it on your own, but like, or you can try to change it on your own.

You can make steps that could work toward changing it. But the, the, just like. Hey, stop it is a bit like a lot of it comes out of like, all right, well, what if, what if the force doesn't stop it? How are you going to deal with it? You know, and, and I, I, and I've had the experience and you, maybe you agree with this, it's like the, the darkest or hardest parts of ceremonies have been probably the most helpful long term.

I think that's where you're actually changing your brain, but it's, it's like a software update, but you know, you're awake for it, which is a little rough, normally the computer goes to sleep. Yeah. [00:52:00]

[00:52:01] ck: Yep. Uh, I've been in this journey for, uh, six plus years. And, uh, there are specific moments that were the hardest that I was like, Oh man, I'm so grateful for those moments.

I don't know if you have those moments, like locking your brain. In

[00:52:18] neil brennan: retrospect. Yeah. I mean that all the Bufo stuff was unbearable almost. I almost killed myself, but I didn't and, uh, and I almost killed myself cause I couldn't understand it. It was incomprehensible. It was like. Yeah. Yeah. I was, you know, I got, I was looking for a 30, 000 foot view and I got a 30 trillion foot view and it was almost unbearable, but I, I got a little bit better every day and then after eight months or so, and then I was, I was, um, a better version of myself or what I consider a better version of myself.

[00:52:55] ck: This is a random question. I'm curious, uh, since you are, you [00:53:00] know, an avid pop culture, I'm assuming I'm projecting, right? Have you ever watched, uh, the movie or the video clip, the egg? Have you ever seen that?

[00:53:13] neil brennan: I, I had it open on my, um, On my, on my desktop for like six months and I never watched it.

[00:53:22] ck: Okay. All right.

So consider maybe a sign from the universe or CK, right? So when people these days ask me, Hey, what's your spirituality? Rather than give me into this whole long conversations, I just send them the egg. So, you know, check it out. I,

[00:53:38] neil brennan: yeah, I mean, I also think like if people ask what's your spirituality, it's kind of, I don't, I kind of feel like,

uh, it's like, Hey, what's your walk? Like, I can't, I don't, I don't know why people would want to know. It's like, just look at it. I get we're talking on a spiritual [00:54:00] podcast, but like, or whatever the category is, but like, it's, it's like, hey, how do you breathe? I just breathe, you know, like I breathe the way my body wants to breathe.

So, so. You could tell them watch the egg or you tell them well Or you could shame them the way I just did by saying let's like ask me what my walk is like just look at my Walk.

[00:54:25] ck: Um, okay. Let me ask you a question about Jerry specifically or Reference him a little bit. So he's known to have the don't break the chain method, right?

He's been doing that for years writing a joke a day and you know people who is inspired by Jerry is like, Oh, this is how you, you know, could.

[00:54:47] neil brennan: Yeah. I'd also don't, there's no, there's no possible way he writes every day, but go ahead. If you, everybody wants to believe that God bless,

[00:54:56] ck: but you know, I personally, so maybe you can debunk that myth.

Right. But that's, [00:55:00] well, I

[00:55:00] neil brennan: know, I just don't, there are days where you cannot, I didn't journal five days ago because I was trapped. It's like, I couldn't, things were happening that prevented it from, from, from me being able to, I had too many things I had to do. So, uh, if, if I think the don't break the chain thing might be meditation, but as far as I'm concerned, I don't believe that Jerry writes every day.

I don't know him well enough to say whether that's true or not. I will say, I don't believe it.

Okay.

[00:55:33] ck: Besides the point I was going to ask you, is there something like that for you? Where you are just these, this is non negotiable. I'm going to do this discipline like the gratitude bullet thing that you mentioned.

Is there anything else?

[00:55:49] neil brennan: Yeah. But to that point, I didn't do it a few days ago. And I, and I didn't go like, I ruined everything. It's all these things are ideals and you try to [00:56:00] live up to them, but There, uh, there is nothing other than sleeping and eating, and I, and even sometimes I don't sleep, there are days I don't, I, whatever, not in a long time, but like, work wise or whatever, I haven't been able to sleep, so, um, there is nothing I do, I don't, I think it's, I think it would be a shame to not, uh, pursue something because you think it's gonna be too hard, you're not gonna live up to it, um, the, uh, The, you know what I mean?

Like, I think it's, I think, I think in terms of being attractive, I think a better way to do it would be like, try to do it every day. If you don't, no big deal, you know?

[00:56:46] ck: So you're not militant or harsh to yourself about sticking with your disciplines. That's what I'm hearing.

[00:56:52] neil brennan: No, I have a, I have a weekly new joke show in LA that I do that I've done for like 13 years.

I don't, [00:57:00] sometimes I'm not there, but I try to write new jokes there. I not only try, I think I've successfully had new jokes there every time I've done it. A lot, 80 percent of them are bad or 90 percent of them, but I, the 10%, you end up, I've written five and a half hours in 15 years. So like I stand by my, my method and I think it's smart to put things in place that make you, make you, uh, I don't think that we're naturally disciplined for the most part.

I think human beings are, our factory settings are like towards sloth. And, and, uh, and laziness. Cause that's, that's why it's in the Bible as like, this is bad. If it wasn't bad, if it wasn't a problem, they wouldn't mention it. It's like, J walking's not in the Bible. You know what I mean? Like, it's just not that big a human problem.

So, um, so I think. Setting, giving [00:58:00] yourself, um, incentivizing yourself to have good habits is a good, is a good habit to have. Um, but, but I can, you know, I can also be incredibly lazy and selling and on my computer and looking at Reddit and, you know, so, but then I have to go like, all right, you have to kind of parent yourself and be like, all right, buddy.

You gotta, you gotta hit the books or whatever. Um, so, so yeah, so I think, I think aspire to, you know, it's the old aim for the stars and if you don't, you'll hit the moon or whatever. Like I aim for, for, you know, uh, checklisting several times a day. I aim to four. If I only get two, I don't consider it a failure.

[00:58:49] ck: So a quick question on that,

[00:58:50] neil brennan: because then it's just negative energy for me. It's just negative energy for me. It's not nothing positive is coming from me being negative.

[00:58:58] ck: So actually I know

[00:58:59] neil brennan: what [00:59:00] the aspiration is. Yeah. Sorry.

[00:59:03] ck: Yeah. Yeah. So on that note, the people who are listening to this podcast, right?

Chances are there. you know, very ambitious, they're disciplined, they want to do the work, right? They want to aim for mastery. So one of the common themes that I come across is they're really, really harsh on themselves. I'm a recovering perfectionist, so I can speak about that personally, right? So how have you been able to be a little kinder, be a little gentler to yourself so that way you don't aim for that perfection, or that inner critic is, you know,

[00:59:39] neil brennan: I think you can aim, I think it's okay to aim for perfection.

I, you know, Chappelle used to criticize me and be like, Brandon's a perfectionist. Yeah, motherfucker. And sometimes the shit's perfect. You know, like I'm not going to apologize for, for, for like, you know, I'm in a position [01:00:00] now where I, my special, my Netflix specials have to be great. Because I'm not a charismatic enough performer to, I can't have a B minus premise for a joke and charm it in.

It's like my jokes need to be structurally pretty flawless. So I cannot have that standard for myself, but the audience is going to, so the joke's not going to work. So I might as well not move it up. I'm already a snob. Um, And I do have personal, uh, you know, I have personal standards. I think you should absolutely have standards.

I don't, I think that there, I think to call it perfectionist is putting a negative connotation on something that is, uh, basically good. Now, [01:01:00] do you, do you ruin your life about it? No, but just get as close as you can to perfect. And. You know, there are things like on my latest Netflix special, like I did a reshoot.

It cost me 10, 000. All right, I don't I I needed and then my girlfriend watched it was like this is better Yes it is that from me obsessing and ruminating and figuring out a way to do it cheaply and call my buddy and saying can I Use your storage space and whatever. Yes um I think that that is a Galvanizing force.

I think it gets to a point Where you have to realize none of this really makes a difference. The reason people like the special is because [01:02:00] of my life force, the reshoot and all that stuff I can, it's almost superstition on my part, this level of perfectionism, it's like, no one notices the segues or notices that you repeated the, like, no one really notices.

They know they just remember like that joke about sex and that joke about skin cancer and that joke about. So, you know, I'm, I'm all for sort of following your own intuition and your muse in terms of what, how good a thing can be, but I also think at a certain point, There's a, there's a, I almost said there's a joke in the Quran.

There's a line in the Quran, um, where it says the hoarding of money is the act of a faithless man, right? In some ways,

[01:02:53] ck: the

[01:02:55] neil brennan: hoarding, the hoarding of money is the act of a [01:03:00] faithless man. I don't know what the exact quote is. That's how it's been told to me. So I think in some ways the. You know, the pursuit of irrational, uh, the pursuit of hyper perfectionism is the act of a faithless man in some ways.

Like, I'm not saying if you work for Boeing, you got, yeah, you cut corners. The perfect, you know, guys don't need to aim for perfect. I think with safety stuff like that, you should aim for perfection. But, but, um, I think. With, uh, a personal thing or, uh, I think you should follow your feelings, but I think you don't ruin your life because I think it just comes down to like, things are either going to work or they're not.

I think it was like, I was, uh, again, forgive me, but I was [01:04:00] spiritually aligned and attuned, whatever, enough for people to finally go. Yeah, I, I want that. I want to watch that guy for 53 minutes more than they did before. So, and that, and again, so that reshoot didn't really help the, but like the getting, changing my inner spirit helped.

[01:04:33] ck: Great.

[01:04:33] neil brennan: So let me do a follow up. But in some ways you could say that, yeah, in some ways you can say that the dogged pursuit of a different inner spirit is a form of perfectionism. I would almost say it's spiritual greed, but.

[01:04:46] ck: I mean, there are different words to describe this, but I wanted to double click on what you just said.

The life force part of it. I have been in the presence of some spiritual leaders. Dalai Lama is an example. You know, China [01:05:00] has really strong spiritual force, right? You've experienced that personally as well. So to me, these are, uh, people who I'm willing to travel long distance to receive, or being the presence of their transmission.

Right. And you actually taught, touched upon this. So. Uh, you also happen to be in an industry where there are lots of people with great magnitude of force, life force, whatever, whether it's the personality. Yeah. They

[01:05:30] neil brennan: give really, really, really charismatic people. Yeah. Like the most charismatic people on earth.

[01:05:36] ck: So, so having, again, you had more data point than I, cause I never met those people. So giving that frame, what, how do you articulate this life force, spiritual

[01:05:53] neil brennan: Um, well, I mean, the definition of the definition of charisma is, [01:06:00] uh, a person who, when they enter a room, you want to say yes to them before you know what the question is. Um, so it's a, it's a energetic, warm smile, eye contact, carriage, movement, tone of voice, uh, face, facial expressions, et cetera. I think, I think in a lot of ways, the people, a lot of my, a lot of my co cohorts in comedy are, Uh, it's not coming from a good place.

I don't think a lot of times. So I think, I think in terms of spirituality or if you want to China or the Dalai Lama or whomever, you know, China's real, had a real humility to him. I've never dealt with the Dalai Lama, but, but, uh, and I never will. But I'm saying, uh, um, if he doesn't stop his madness with China, I've never, well, [01:07:00] um, uh, the, um, I just think there's a humility to it.

And in terms of my own, I just don't have much anger. I used to read angry and now I don't, I don't think so. Um, my face is still what it is. My tone of voice is still what it is, but there's like a lot less sourness in my, um, note. And, and there's a lot less sourness. It's what Chappelle calls this. If you can't see it, I'm flicking my it's energy coming out of my neck and meaning what you're, what's the, what message are you giving off?

Uh, without saying a word.

[01:07:51] ck: Okay. So follow up would be for those that are want to expand, amplify, multiply, unlock, whatever word you [01:08:00] use.

[01:08:00] neil brennan: The unlocking, I mean, again, I just, I don't, the thing that I don't want to, I, the thing that I think may be a mistake for people culturally is to make these, I think a lot of times I've noticed people are doing all these things.

Drinking medicine, sweat lodges, uh, you know, 100 ounces of water a day, fasting, all the stuff that people do now, right? They're almost doing it just as a hack for money. And I think it can't be that. I think a buddy of mine said when we did ayahuasca the first time, he goes, are we going to be able to be capitalists after this?

And, uh, and I, and I laughed and I was like, yeah, we will be, I find myself getting less capitalist. And like in a way that's not good [01:09:00] for my bottom line, but I don't care because I just, my values are different now. So, and you know, whatever. So, so I almost don't want to answer the question because I don't want it to be like how I don't want it to be like charisma school, you know.

It's, we talked about spiritual growth on here, I think a lot, and, and I think if that's something that interests you, and again, I did approach it from a place of greed. I don't, I don't think I wanted, I don't think I did it to be a bigger comedian, honestly. Uh, I will admit to wanting to be like, um, you know, happier and more joyful cause those are sort of the sugar.

That's the sugar of the emotional system. And I love sugar. [01:10:00] Um, but I think the, the, like, how do you, I don't know how you get as charismatic as Kevin Hart or Dave Chappelle. I that's not, it's not anything I can, I don't think they can tell you. They, they, uh, You know, I, and I think all of these things, if not, if used improperly are like really A abuse, you know, of power, uh, if you're just using it for your own personal, uh, for just to get attention and money, it's like, eh, but if you can use it in some ways, like that guy, Chana, I'm, I'm betting he, he's not going to be a billionaire at any point, like say Kevin Hart is.

And, uh, but that's its own reward, you know, having settled human energy is its own reward. [01:11:00] Or kind human energy or, or pleased or happy or warm, is it, it cannot be. So I can gr rise and grind, you know? So, Neil, before you go, so that's the, so I'm, I'm, I'm answering, I'm answering with a non-answer.

[01:11:21] ck: Well, Neil, I know that you gotta go, so I, lemme just take a moment to really acknowledge you, dude.

Um, just fill the moment we met your sincerity, your honesty, your raw candor, you know, your humor. And, and really, I really appreciate just how you're going through this journey, your favorite word with, with such candor and honesty and, uh, and a lot of people are taking inspiration from it, even though you don't want them to, even though you're only sharing your story.

But uh, I certainly, I

[01:11:52] neil brennan: am, I am one possibility. I am one possibility out of 8 billion. So appreciate you [01:12:00] and look forward to seeing you

[01:12:00] ck: in the ceremony. Yeah, of course,

[01:12:01] neil brennan: man. Yes, sir. Keep me in the

[01:12:05] ck: loop. Yeah. Thanks, buddy.

Have a good one. Cheers.

Bye.