177 Tony Moss: Unlocking Clarity: Exploring Ayahuasca and Consciousness Expansion

[00:00:00] ck: Welcome to Noble Warrior. My name is CK Lin. This is where I interview entrepreneurs and practitioners about their journey to master themselves, to have greater performance, greater joy, and greater purpose. My next guest is a community leader, a musician, and an ayahuasca advocate. He has dedicated 30 plus years of his life working with music, plant medicine, and human consciousness.

He is the creative director at I am life music, a nonprofit organization that promotes interconnectivity through modern indigenous wisdom is the leader of the bird tribe, a musical collective. If you want to follow up with him, go to Tony Moss dot me, please welcome Tony Moss. Hey,

[00:00:47] Tony: good to see you.

[00:00:49] ck: And thanks so much for being here.

I want to just first. Momo, your song, Grateful, um, is one of my favorite songs, my favorite medicine songs. [00:01:00] It really connects me with the essence and the gratitude that I have for being alive. So thank you for doing that

[00:01:09] Tony: song. That's just such a great place to lead an entire conversation, you know, because, uh, I wasn't recording for many years and the opportunity came to record.

And I thought, well, if I'm going to bother putting all that time and energy, I want to like, what would I want to say? You know? Um, And, uh, at that time, what I was mostly focused on was the value of being grateful, right? Yeah, of just starting off every day that is realistically possible with putting your feet on the ground, maybe before even then, and taking stock of like, What's good in your life, what it is that you're grateful for, even if it's just to wake up again, right, and breathe, it changes everything, basically.

So, yeah, so thank you for acknowledging that.

[00:01:55] ck: So, since you're the creator of that song, and that song has been around [00:02:00] for, what is it, 4 years, something like that? Yeah, 4 or 5 years. 4 or 5 years, perfect. So, how has it shifted your personal life? Uh, your relational life, and also the community that's been listening to your song, because I hear a lot of people, that's also one of their favorite songs as well.

What kind of, quote unquote, impact it has on you, has on the community, and the broader humanity as a whole?

[00:02:26] Tony: It's been, uh, an amazing journey, you know, um, that's a multifaceted question, and I'm gonna keep the answers succinct, almost like in bullet points. So first, I remember thinking that there wasn't much of an audience for what's now being called medicine music.

Yes, there is an audience for people that do, you know, yoga and self improvement and, you know, plant medicine ceremony work. And, uh, so I thought I'm gonna create this song for them, right? And, uh, they'll get it and they'll appreciate it. Um, and that would probably be somewhat [00:03:00] the extent of, you know, my recording endeavors.

Absolutely wrong on both fronts. So I get messages literally all the time from people all over the world telling me that they have stumbled across that song and that it has pulled them out of a depression or that, you know, my father died and I played that at his funeral, um, which was one of the intentions for writing it actually.

And, um, it also, uh, because of that, it also opened me up to the possibility of like, maybe I actually do want to return to the recording industry relative to that as a platform to share. You know, um, yeah. So the Birds in Paradise album, bird Tribe came follow that because of it, the song Colana and now the new album.

So, yeah. So the answer to the question is it not only opened me to a broader community of people, you know, it also inspired me to, um, delve even more into what it is that I do and [00:04:00] kind of inspired me to wanna do it even more. Yeah.

[00:04:03] ck: Hmm. So it was like a positive feedback loop, positive affirmation to. Who you are, the unique medicine that you can bring to songs, to the broader

[00:04:15] Tony: world.

You know, I remember listening to, uh, I was on the road driving with a friend and they said, Oh, have you heard a knocko bear? And at the time I really had it. Um, and one of his songs, you know, what I mostly, uh, zeroed in on was this one lyric he says, which you're probably familiar with where he says, find your medicine and use it.

And I remember being really struck by that as an artist and, you know, a community leader and someone that does medicine work as well. Just this idea of finding whatever it is your unique expression is. You know, you go to Agape International Church and, you know, Reverend Michael will often say you are a unique emanation of whatever God is [00:05:00] doing right now, right?

And that's quite, that's a quite literal statement actually, right? Um, once you really get that and you realize that in the whole history of humanity, there's never been another C. K. and never will, and that you have particular attributions, you know, you know, talents and a particular history and life experience and a perspective, You can actually take all of that, right, and turn that into whatever it is you're going to offer to life.

Which I think is, yes, that's your particular medicine, right? How you're gonna hone and shape that and give it back to the world.

[00:05:35] ck: I'm smiling so big because that's one of the messages on the podcast we share a lot. There's only one of you in all of eternity, billions before, billions after, there's not gonna be another Tony Moss, another CK Lin.

So how can we empower each other to bring forth the essence that's uniquely you. So thank you [00:06:00] for double clicking on that. So on that note, Tony, you've been doing this work, elevating human consciousness, plant medicine in all the work that you've done. How have you identified that medicine to bring forth and give yourself permission to amplify it through the online world or the music or.

You know, other platforms. How have you identified that and excavated that to bring forth that to the world?

[00:06:27] Tony: You know, any transformational technology, whatever it is people take on, in my particular case, it just happened to be, uh, plant medicine work, specifically ayahuasca, because that's just what happened.

It found me, or I found it, found each other. Um, one of the things you quickly get from doing any kind of like authentic transformation work is. The limitations that you have placed in front of you. Um, self imposed limitations, conditioned limitations by family, by [00:07:00] culture. Um, yeah, and there's this beautiful opportunity that it offers you to, one, recognize all the limitations of that, right?

And then to start to move through, right? And in that, there is this permission. It's like, almost everyone at some point will be posed with A question that kind of looks like, if you did not have these limitations and these self deprecating or self limitating beliefs, what would you be doing with your life?

What would get you, you know, jumping out of bed in the morning and what would motivate you, right, to want to participate in life at the fullest extent? So that's What I got from the plant medicines early on, and all the other things that I was doing in conjunction. And it's also what I have seen people consistently get, right, when they take on this kind of work.

Is, uh, you know, it can be uncomfortable, as you know. You know, uh, I, someone said [00:08:00] many years ago, I, I heard this as a quote, that one of the most difficult things a human being will do is face themselves. Right? And it's true. It's like, men would rather go to blows, right, go to war, right, rather than. Take an honest, full account of themselves, right?

So that's required, right? At some point, if what you want to do is quote, unquote, uh, transformation or spiritual work. And the beauty of that is what we're just talking about, that you can start to see through the illusions of your own story. And by that I mean the limitations of that story. And you can really start to live a rewarding life from an authentic place, right?

Um, and start to look at like, yeah, what do I want to offer? Because guaranteed, that's one of the things that will come up. You will quickly realize, as you know, that one of the most profound things And I think profound in that it comes up cross culturally throughout time is [00:09:00] on the other side of a healing experience or a transformational experience is what can I offer?

Yeah, I often say it's like going to Burning Man the first year, right? And you're just blown away by all the amazing things everybody has done. The second year, it's like, what do I want to do?

[00:09:20] ck: So my personal journey with this medicine work and also transformational path is I'm an engineer by training. So as an engineer, we want the most effective, the most efficient way to get from point A to point B.

And hence why I love, you know, uh, for a time, I identify myself as a biohacker, as a consciousness hacker, because I want to just want to, you know, go after the outcome as quickly, as efficiently as possible. And throughout this journey that I realized, it's actually layers. There's a lot of layers of illusions that I had, and it was through uncoupling all these layers and layers [00:10:00] and layers that I was able to quote unquote heal myself throughout the process, and with every layers, um, um, I guess taken off, a new realization, new paradigm come to be.

So rather than seeking a sort of a light switch moment, go from, you know, unconscious and drinking ayahuasca, ta da, I'm fully conscious. That's just not how it works in my experience. So if you don't mind unpacking your own journey or the journey that people that you've seen, how they have gracefully, you know, uh, with dignity, uh, grow into who they really are.

You know, the, the depth of their being, um, that would be very helpful for those that are just in the beginning part of the journey, because if I hear them, if they hear you for the first time, they may think like, oh, okay, great. All, you know, done kind of a thing. So, you know, my go to the [00:11:00] details. So, yeah,

[00:11:02] Tony: I'm so glad you brought that up and that you framed it so beautifully.

Uh, two things you said, really, I resonate with that. Are really important. One is the concept of biohacking because working with plant medicines absolutely can be that, um, and the other is you use just, you know, efficiency, you know, the an engineer's approach is the most efficient way to go from A to B.

Um, I think people think of traditional spirituality. As that being non applicable, like it's not about efficiency, but of course it is, right? And particularly in the time period that we're in, you know, like evolution is happening and things have accelerated. And a lot of people have said something along those lines, which I agree with.

We no longer need to spend 10 years searching for a guru and spend another 10 years sitting on a mountaintop in a cave meditating. A lot of the work by people like Jamie Wheal has been about reverse [00:12:00] engineering that, which is biohacking. It's like, ayahuasca and plant medicine work, depending on your approach, can absolutely offer that.

It's a way of going from A to B, we'll say A to Z, right? And as I said, not necessarily comfortable or pretty, but can be very efficient if your mindset is that I really want to accelerate my own consciousness. I want to accelerate my growth. I really have this desire to see what is in the way between me and life, right?

Me and my infinite potential, right? If you're entering the plant medicine space with that as your intent, it is a powerful ally, absolutely. And an accelerated transformational experience. The thing that people need to be aware of, which we also alluded to, is that it's, one, it's not for everybody. And, um, it may not necessarily give you that.

You really, it's like anything, you've gotta, um, You know, [00:13:00] I think of like athletes, you know, you're not going to sign up for a marathon, you know, a big one, and then go run it the following week with no training. Right. So, although plant medicine, ayahuasca work doesn't require that level of preparation, it does require preparation.

Meaning, you've got to do your research, do your homework, check all the boxes, look at the substances that you're on, pharmaceuticals, your state of mental health, do your homework about, you know, the facilitator or group that you're going to sit with. You want to find out as much as you possibly can so that you can get as Much out of that first experience is possible, because that's going to set the stage for the rest of your journey.

Assuming that you want to continue with it, right? And whether or not you continue with it is probably going to depend on how well the first one goes. And one of the misconceptions about ayahuasca particularly, and it's because of the age of, you know, social media, um, is that everybody thinks they're going to go and have this amazing, life [00:14:00] changing, very dramatic experience night one, and you'll walk out in light in the next day.

And as you know from experience, what actually happens is there's these beautiful increments, right? You might have an incredible blown out first experience, but in the integration process of that experience, What you'll notice is like, oh, this one little improvement happened, you know, like I'm now a kinder person or I'm now in a better relationship with my mom or whatever the thing is, you know, I'm now not so stressed.

I am less anxious, right? And from that success, that little win, you go back and what you'll start learning is the technology of ayahuasca and plant medicine ceremony in general is that you set an intention. Because it allows you to start recognizing all these layers of yourself. And it can take a full night for one of them.

And you might go in one night and, you know, say to yourself, My intention for this evening is just to get in touch with my anger. Or just to get in touch with my illusions [00:15:00] around relationship. Or, um, I want to deal with some trauma that I only just realized I might even be carrying. That is how I think, well what I've seen, and what I know works.

For people that want to take it on as an actual like transformational modality, as opposed to a one night exotic experience. And I'm not knocking that either. But I think if all you're looking for is the one night. Oh my God experience. Um, I do think you're missing out on his potential as a bio life hack.

Like ally for all of your life ambitions.

[00:15:39] ck: Yeah, thank you for Affirming what, uh, what I was trying to articulate the way I relate to all transformational modalities for me again, right? I'm an engineer by training. So I look at the world through skill acquisition and tools. That's just how I'm trained.

That's, that's my worldview. And, [00:16:00] um, and ayahuasca is a really powerful tool and it amplifies. And magnifies our consciousness so that I can see all the nooks and crannies of my higher self, my negative self talk and, and then, then experience that fully and then make a quote unquote decision afterwards.

Hey, do I want to do something about it now that I'm aware of this? Okay. If so, then what are my integrative practices, my disciplines so that I can, you know, uh, incorporate and internalize the lessons into my behavioral change. Rather than just, Oh, that was a great insight. I'm one with God and check. Yeah.

Right. Next ceremony. Please.

[00:16:42] Tony: Yeah. I love the way you articulate your approach and experience, because that really nails it if a person is just looking for, and I don't use the word just to belittle what I'm about to say. If, if a [00:17:00] person is just looking for an experience of higher self of some. type of maybe validation of spirituality or God.

Um, that can definitely be delivered. But, uh, I often find, as you have, that that might initially be incredibly satisfying and life changing, but right away, what you'll actually want to do is play a bigger game. Right? Meaning, you'll want to dive into life and start participating more, typically. And then everything else you brought up is going to come up at least potentially is again, like it's a skill set, right?

It's you're adding this amazing, powerful tool to your life. Um, in terms again of how to achieve not only what one wants, but how to participate in life, how to help other people, whatever your thing is, right? Right. You use this term, which, you know, is a valid one for me, um, elevating human [00:18:00] consciousness. I knew when I started saying that a lot of people were going to be like, what the hell is this guy doing, you know, talking about elevating consciousness?

Well, you know, this is one of the things you get permission about, is to get really clear on what it is you're up to, right? Um, I was at Burning Man one year, speaking of Burning Man again, and a good friend of mine, Devin, was in that camp, and at some point in the conversation, he told me, His dad once said to him, this quote that has stayed with me ever since, he said, know what you're up to and be up to it.

I just fell in love with that because it's true. One of the things that you hopefully will get in your life, particularly with doing work with ayahuasca is to really narrow in on what it is that you're up to and what it is that you're about. What it is that you want to contribute and Accomplished, right?

Whether it's just like, I just want to like be the best doula and help bring babies into the world, or I want to take people to the moon, whatever it is, like know what you're up to, right? You got to nail that. [00:19:00] And then you got to be up for it. You got to be up to it. And I realized after years of doing traditional activism, activist work, which is super valuable.

I just don't do that type of work anymore. I realized for me that where I was going to be most beneficial was on the front lines, which I actually call of consciousness. Like, um, helping to expand and elevate consciousness for individuals and for humanity in general was just the game that I was playing, right?

It's where I wanted to spend a lot of my time and energy and perfect a certain level of skill set and mastery. And this was maybe like 15 16 years ago. I've been working with 15 years already, by the way. Um, but I hadn't really cognized it in that way. And, uh, suddenly it dawned on me, it's like, that's actually what I'm about, it's what I'm doing.

Whether I'm making art through, you know, visual art, uh, music, you know, event production, [00:20:00] underneath all of that, what motivates me is in what way is this thing Even the title of this song or the title of this event, in what way is that helping to contribute to the elevation and expansion of human consciousness?

Hence why my music label is called I Am Life, right? I thought, even in the name, I want it to be in a mantra, right? And I thought, well, yes, I am life. Yeah. I

[00:20:26] ck: love that. Um, no wonder, you know, I feel like it's such a kindred spirit when I speak to you whenever that's that whenever we do cross our path, I'm very much about the same way, though our approach is a little bit different.

I'm not a musician, right? I do appreciate music. So, um, so you've been doing this for 16 years professionally in terms of serving the medicine with that intention of elevating the collective human consciousness. Uh, you know, from one practitioner to another, what have you discovered [00:21:00] in your 16 years of doing this regarding the toolkit, regarding what works, regarding, you know, what to pay attention to the metrics of how you measure that, like, whatever you would like to share, I'd love to hear what have you discovered in the 16 years of being intentional about this?

[00:21:18] Tony: I think that is such a big question, but the answer can actually be really whittled down, you know.

It deserves a moment. I would say the thing that is most stood out for me is that one, human beings are pretty much the same wherever you go. Meaning we have definite, we're definitely wired uniquely from familial and cultural conditioning, right? But basically as a species of people, we're pretty much the same.

And. You can, although the ceremony approach needs to be tailored for specific [00:22:00] cultures to be effective, at the same time, people go through the same processes, reach the same realizations. And the, the basic playbook for this type of work is the same, which is the preparation for the ceremony. Right.

Holding a really what we call a tight container, regardless, um, meaning a place that is a ceremony space that is held so safely that people feel free to relax into it and go through their work. And then most importantly of all, the integration, right, is, uh, making sure that people have access to integration tools.

If not through you as a practitioner, through other groups, um, and explaining what that is, right? A lot of, you know, back when I started, the concept of integration didn't exist. Nobody was using it. Um, it came about as I was coming of age in this medicine world. Now integration is everything. You hear it everywhere.

Um, it's almost cliche, as it should be, right? Um, [00:23:00] It is all about how one integrates the ceremonial experience into their life, as you. It's taking this hyperbolic, sometimes really dramatic experience that seems life changing in the moment, and then come Monday, Tuesday, post ceremony, it's like, what do I do with this?

Yeah, so finding ways to integrate that experience and supporting people in doing that has been really important. Um, I would think the, the other thing that I have learned is how much. deeper and more complex and beautiful people are than they think they are. Yeah. I find that, which I'm sure anybody that's done this work, you included, can relate to.

One of the things that we kind of laugh about occasionally, my crew and I, is that we should be taking before and after pictures, right? Because the way people look when they walk into a ceremony versus when they leave [00:24:00] after the weekend, right? And then subsequently, if they keep coming, as you get to know them.

Little by little, like, all these gifts and insights and depth starts to show up. And you always wonder where that was in the first place. Well, it was buried under all the muck, right? Yeah, and to use a common vernacular, it's just buried under all the shit that everybody else is burying underneath. And as that starts to unfold, right, and gets unpacked, people really start to blossom, you know?

So I would say the other thing I've learned is the importance of being committed to people. Right. And I don't think that means that you have this really obnoxious person that is causing trouble and you can't stand being around them and like, you know, no, I must be committed. It means that in general, when somebody comes to you, whether they're coming to you for coaching or they're coming to me for, you know, this type of experience that there needs to be a commitment on our part, right.

To fully see the person and [00:25:00] fully show up for them. So that at least the potential of what it is that you're offering might take seed and open, right? So I've really is I've learned a lot about Being open to people that I don't even necessarily quote unquote like right and face it We don't like everybody sometimes somebody walks into the room and without any understanding of it you have an aversion That's just honest and it's okay.

Um, the medicine work has taught me to be honest and okay with that and do my work anyway.

[00:25:32] ck: So there's a couple of questions I can follow up with. One is about the integration tools. You know, I'm a nerd when it comes to quote unquote technologies, widgets, gadgets, you know, processes, frameworks, all these things.

But I'll pause that for a second. We'll come back to that later. Talking about being committed to people that come to you. I realize for me, I can help a subset of people. So here is my criteria, the kind of people that can help the [00:26:00] most. If they don't meet that criteria, I can help them, but not to the best of my ability.

They won't get the best out of me as well, right? So, but when it comes to something like an ayahuasca thing, it's very much like church. I'm, I'm assuming correct me if I'm wrong, the door is pretty much open to everybody. So do you put some kind of a limiter criteria to, you know, this is the kind of people that we can serve best and the others, you know, there may be other places that you can go to serve.

Like, I hate to put it across like that, but that's what's happening in my mind. I'd love to hear your thoughts

[00:26:34] Tony: about that. No, you know, I'm, uh, if, if I am known for nothing else, it's for keeping it real, even in the ceremony space. You know, um, you and I had a quick conversation, you know, preparing for this and I was mentioning to you one of the things that I'm known for is removing the woo woo from the ceremony.

And what I mean by that is, [00:27:00] um, it is a technology. It is founded in tradition and particular culture and I've studied that over years and I bring that to the work. Um, and. I mentioned this idea of the container. One of the ways the container is held is by the curation and the screening of who shows up. I have a responsibility when we lead retreats, you know, and, um, it's a bit easier because they're typically international, you know, in places where it's legal, like we did one in Costa Rica recently.

Well, there's a whole form that people need to fill out, you know. Is there a history of mental illness? Why is it that you want to come? What is it that you want to achieve? You're asking enough questions to get a sense of who a person is and whether or not they are physically and emotionally, mentally, psychologically ready for the work, right?

And if you get red [00:28:00] flags from somebody and you let them show up anyway, my experience has been that in almost every case early on when I would do that. They would be a disruptive force for the survey as a whole. And I always look back and I was like, Why did I do that? And the red flags were there. You get to the point where you pay attention to the red flags.

And part of my responsibility as a facilitator, right, as a practitioner, to provide the best experience for everybody present. And I can't, let's say you're going to have a group of 20 people, hypothetically, you can't sacrifice the experience of the other 19 people for this one person. It just doesn't work that way.

It's not going to work for the group. It's not going to work for the one person either. So, I get your question and I like that you framed it that way. If you're a church, the doors are open. Absolutely everybody can walk through those doors and receive whatever it is this particular church or tradition is offering.

[00:29:00] Um, If you wanted to go to Peru and sit with ayahuasca in a quote unquote traditional setting with indigenous people. Chances are pretty good that they're going to kind of approach it the same way. But I can tell you from my, a lot of experience in the world of ayahuasca and plant medicine work in general, everything evolves.

This work has evolved to it has gotten very mature and almost no one is going to do that. Almost no practitioner facilitator worth their salt is just going to let anybody come to ceremony that wants to, right? Just because they want to. I will give you an example. We were out of town recently at a ceremony space, and someone had been contacted me, knew where we were, um, hosting the ceremony that night, um, forgot what country we were in, and, um, basically said, Oh, I heard you guys were here.

You know, I really, really want to do this ceremony. I really want to do this work. And I was like, hey, we're full. I don't really know you. Long story short, [00:30:00] after maybe the sixth message, I said, okay, we should let this guy come. But I told the guardian, I said, meet them in the, you know, the parking area and ask him these few questions.

So my guardian meets the person, basically said, Tony wants to make sure that you're here for this particular reason. And Not something else. The guy basically ended up saying to him, I kid you not, his exact words were, I was just looking for something to do on a Saturday night. So we sent him on his way.

Wasn't able to participate after all. That's not a good reason to have someone in ceremony, clearly, right? Even if he didn't actually mean it, it's like, this is a big commitment. Every other person in that room that weekend was there because they had prepared. And they really wanted to get something out of that weekend.

So it would have been irresponsible for me to let one person show in because they were quote unquote looking for something to do on a Saturday night. Even if it might have been a life changing experience. I can't take that risk.

[00:30:59] ck: I agree with you [00:31:00] a thousand percent. One of the realization that I have is one of my biggest joy in life is surround myself with people who are highly committed to their own growth, their own healing.

Hence why Ayahuasca, hence why my men's group, hence why You know, all these things that I'm up to, uh, I, nothing kills the buzz if someone who's just like, ah, I'm just looking for some entertainment, it's like, no, I want to run with people who are like, let's go, you know, so we're sure. Thank you for saying that.

[00:31:31] Tony: Yeah. You know, you. When you were asking that question. One of the things that came to mind is I, uh, was a vocal coach for a while. Um, I used to be the director for the International Children's Choir for like three years. And, uh, these were mostly pretty advanced kids, you know. Um, and out of that experience I became a theatrical and vocal coach.

And one of the things I quickly realized is Um, I'm the kind of [00:32:00] artist that is a really good coach for somebody who is already relatively advanced, right? So for a kid that's already been trained and has some skill, I can take them from point A to point B. Or in this case, they're probably already at B and I can take them to C.

What I was not good at was a completely beginning student that was just learning to sing, right? This is really important, relating to your question. It's like, It's again, the thing about knowing what you're up to and being up to it. You know for sure that where you would excel is with a group of really committed men that are at a particular place in your life.

And relative to who you are, you can take them from this place to that place. It's completely okay to recognize yourself in this arena, right? And to make that the audience that you're most effective in. I feel the same way in the world of ayahuasca, right? Uh, in the world of plant medicine. Is someone who's just looking for, like, An introductory, I've heard about ayahuasca, um, it's an exotic thing.

I want to cross off [00:33:00] my bucket list. There's a lot of places you can go for that and I'm not knocking it, you know? However, when you really want to take on your life, take on a study of this work or have a, or you are committed to your own personal transformation and particularly be how that can unfold into what it is that you offer.

Yeah, then absolutely. I want to be like, I want to be a coach for that person. Um,

[00:33:26] ck: actually on that note, Tony, I'm curious, cause you have multiple offerings. One is yes, you serve medicine to people who are highly committed. And also there's this, I am life music offering, you know, for people that want to experience medicine songs in a modern fusion, like beautiful way, which I totally appreciate.

The way I'm seeing it, this, that, that, the, the parallel that I see is I have a podcast that's very broad for the people who are interested. They not yet committed perhaps, and it's a mixed [00:34:00] audience gen, more generalized audience, and then that I have a men's group who are, you know, highly committed to their, what they're up to.

So is that how you think about in terms of being the teacher, being the creator, being the artist that you are as a way to serve more people? Let me know if I'm projecting. Yeah, well,

[00:34:18] Tony: no. Different language, but same intent. As I said, ayahuasca is not for everyone. And it is a very relatively small percentage of the population that is interested in that work, or even has access to it.

You know, it's still not legal in the United States. So, people that, you know, like for instance, we We go to Costa Rica or some of the other places we go to for ceremony, and people sign up six months ahead of time because it's the one place they know they're going to be able to do it legally, safely, they know who I am, reputation, um, but the [00:35:00] intent of why I'm doing it, this commitment to expanding consciousness, particularly through the music and through connecting people, and We found that that could also happen in public events that follow the same ceremony structure without medicine.

So that became I Am Life. We wanted it to be, as we, I often say, the public face of the ayahuasca work, right? There's no medicines involved, um, although plant medicines like there's cacao, right? So what we do is, these public events, um, currently we're calling them, uh, Acoustic Light. Um, they're like a concert series.

So there's like an intention set in the beginning, um, there's cacao available, uh, we're sponsored by a Buddha teas, there's teas there. So this, this idea that we're all drinking and vibing together like our ancestors did is kind of set in the beginning. We kind of set the intention for the evening. And then it's always what we call quote unquote medicine music.

It's the environment is set up so that you're, it's [00:36:00] not like entertainment where you go to a concert. People are talking and You know, partying in the back, drinking alcohol, and the artist is up there, and you may or may not pay attention. In these kind of environments, everybody's zeroed in on what's happening musically, and the artists are close and in intimate contact with the audience.

And most of the people in the room have had experience with plant medicine work or something in the world of transformation. And you're getting to connect with, for an evening, people that Are kind of on the same page as you are committed to some of the same things people make new friends Constantly we do too Or if they've been listening to you know, like grateful for a year this happened at the last concert someone came up and said I just want you to know i've been listening to your song for a year And i've been wanting an opportunity to actually meet you and so tonight is it?

And those are really special moments that they are for me and they are for other people too. So So yeah, you're right. Actually, that's one of the reasons we do the public events and one of the reasons the music aspect [00:37:00] You know, and life is so important is that it allows the same energy and intent of the ceremony work to go out into the world in a way that's not, it's not woo woo, it's not suspicious and it's not illegal.

[00:37:13] ck: There you go. So I'm curious, Tony, I mean, as an extension of the, uh, music offering in ceremony format, um, they could be other things that you could offer as a tool to help and elevate their consciousness, like meditation, music, or some kind of affirmation chance or whatever the thing it's like people are, you know, are NLP.

With music or there's tons of different quote unquote musical things that you could do that that could bridge them to eventually like an ayahuasca sitting type things. Is there any reason you haven't done those things yet?

[00:37:55] Tony: You know, I've never been asked that question, but [00:38:00] the answer to me is kind of obvious. Well, I personally have experienced all those things, you know, early on when I was. You know, experimenting and and not just experimenting, experimenting kind of gives this idea that I tried them and they didn't work.

That wasn't the case. You know, there's a period of time when I was really exploring and taking on all these different modalities. Um, the work with plant medicines in ayahuasca is so demanding. Um, I mean, that's facilitator that learning it right to the years, right? Anybody that tells you they've been drinking a couple of years and they're now leading ceremony.

That's a bit crazy, right? It's not impossible. But anybody that's been doing this for a long time can tell you, you know, I was drinking ayahuasca pretty consistently for 10 years before the thought even entered my mind, right, that I would want to take on the responsibility of leading other people through this work.

So, yeah, it's a, [00:39:00] it's a, it's a huge commitment. So, in that. I remember hearing somebody say something to the effect of like, Oh, no, no. I'm exclusively married to ayahuasca, um, as a modality. Yeah. I feel that way too. I feel like I've given so much energy and commitment to this particular transformational technology.

I'm so committed to it and I love it. It's not that the others don't work. It's that this is the one I chose to kind of stick with and quote unquote master to the degree that that's possible. Yeah. And however, those other tools I got to say, um, are absolutely beneficial. And a lot of people are involved in like, You know, transcendental meditation and NLP and all those other things while working with Ayahuasca.

They work great in concert, but I'm just not going to offer them. Yeah. I mean, as my friends say these days, the new phrase is I'm going to stay in my lane.

[00:39:58] ck: Yeah. Yeah. No, I [00:40:00] appreciate it. You're not polyamorous, so to speak, right? You're not spreading your energy all over the place at all committed to this path.

And your, your, you know, your commitment to mastery that's that much I get from you. Okay. So if you don't mind, let's talk about mastery, you know, in terms of ayahuasca practices. Um, what does it look like, you know, on this path in the 16 years you've been serving this medicine, you know, from way in the beginning drinking medicine for 10 years before you had a thought, like maybe I could offer this to, you know, just take us through the milestones of.

What do you view it like? Maybe I should use a, a martial arts background, you know, as a, as a metaphor, right? What does it feel like to be a white belt and yellow belt, blue belt, purple belt, and black belt? So then people are gonna go like, oh, this is what it takes to walk this path as a committed practitioner.

[00:40:57] Tony: You know, it's very tricky with ayahuasca to answer that [00:41:00] question. Um, because you're asking it at a time. You're asking it while we're in the midst of what a lot of people are calling this quote unquote psychedelic renaissance. Man. Um, which a lot of other people say isn't a psychedelic renaissance. It's actually just a mainstreaming of psychedelics and plant medicine work.

But regardless, uh, what I'm about to say is the same. Um, for the first time ever, I'm going to guess in history, you can actually sign up for a how to be a shaman course on some website and go work with somebody for like a couple of months, you know, anywhere, Peru, let's just say, and then come back with a piece of paper with some kind of illusion that you actually are qualified to start leading people through ceremony.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but anybody that's been doing this for a while can tell you like. I wouldn't sit with that person. Right? And here's why. There [00:42:00] is the only way to master facilitation, particularly of this particular type, because of how varied and volatile it is, is to actually do it. Right?

So you have to be in many, many, many ceremonies. That's how you learn, right? How to be, it's not like, you know, Let's say you want to learn how to teach yoga. You can go to a yoga training course, right, and learn all the things, and then come back from that course, and then maybe with friends or opening practice, and yeah, you can apply that thing.

The difference is you're in the same consciousness you were in when you were studying, right, as you are when you're teaching, and that everybody else is in. Plant medicine work is not that way. Everyone's in an office. You're in an alter, what we call non ordinary state of consciousness. And any number of things can happen in that space.

So you have to be [00:43:00] there a lot to learn how to maneuver and master that level of energy and what we call force moving through you and as it's moving through other people and multiple things are happening. So there's one, just the experience factor that needs to be A lot, whatever that is for you. Then there's understanding the roots of the technology and why things happen, like what things happen and why they do, why they happen and when.

That comes from studying with masters in the field. And in this case, it is typically going to be, not always, but typically it's going to be indigenous people from a particular tradition. I've been really fortunate. I've studied with Shipibo and, you know, um, Yawanawa, Huni Kuin, um, We got to go to Ecuador.

My assistant and I, David, and we studied for a while with the Sienkopai people of Ecuador. David went to Colombia, right? And all the intent of all of that was the same. It was to go to the roots of the medicine [00:44:00] work and understand its origins, why things evolved the way they did, where from and why they do it, right?

And, um, one example would be we asked the Shipibo, you know, the role of the chanting. In the music and ceremony and they don't have traditional music they do these days, but they don't traditionally and they said without hesitation. They said, well, we acknowledge ayahuasca is the real shaman. However, the, the chanting, the music tells it where to go.

Right? Well, that's

[00:44:28] ck: a huge insight. Wait, wait, hold on. Yeah, unpack that sentence. Say it slower. Yeah.

[00:44:33] Tony: So they said, we acknowledge that we acknowledge that I'm now transposing a little bit. They said, we acknowledge that the ayahuasca is the real. That's what's really doing the work here. However, the people chanting, or in my case, the music, tells it where to go.

It's the thing that's directing the medicine, leading the ceremony, and kind of taking people on an arc and a journey. This [00:45:00] is absolutely true, because once you realize that the power of the spoken word, melody, harmony, cadence, the lyric choices, right? It's When you get that, you suddenly realize the huge weight, responsibility, and potential of what comes out of your mouth, or your fingers, right?

Uh, in ceremony, right? Um, Yeah, so that, although as simple as that was, hearing it directly from them, that insight, and then going right into ceremony afterwards and having a deeper understanding of what it is they were talking about, Vibration, frequency, and sound, and ceremony. And then for Western people, To have your own language, to actually understand the intent of the lyrics or the chant that's coming at you.

It was a game changer for me at the time. This was many years ago. Yeah, so you know, just examples of like the, all the different layers and both subtle and [00:46:00] I think dramatic of training necessary to eventually get to this place where you feel like you've mastered what you're doing enough. You've mastered facilitation enough.

To feel confident and safe to take other people on that journey, right? And mastery is always a tricky word because you want to remain forever a student, as you know, and you do. But at the same time, there is this place, and let's talk about mastery in general for a moment, because I know it's really what you're about.

There has to be a moment in your journey when all of your work leads you to a place where you can say, Okay, I have mastered this thing, right? Relative to where you are in that moment and relative to the arena that you find yourself in, there does have to be a moment when you're claiming mastery.

Otherwise, you never get there, right? And, um, it's not from an egoic place. Like, well, like the fake it till you make it or the, in this case, um, What's that phrase [00:47:00] everyone's using now about, uh, spiritual bypass, right? It's not just, you're going to claim yourself as a master shaman, right? You claim yourself as a master engineer.

It's like, no, you've done the homework. You've done the study. You've seen the feedback from the work that you've put in. And you can actually get to a point where it's like, okay, the next level of me and my work is me owning what it is that I've done so far, right? I need to like sit in this place of mastery as an artist, right.

Um, or wherever it is. And then start creating and doing my work from that place. Meaning not from insecurity or shyness or fear, but from a place of confidence. That's really what we're talking about when we're talking about mastery. I think it's a Yeah, I love the smile on your face because I know from knowing you, you know what I'm talking about.

It's really about getting somebody, like say me as a coach, to a place where they feel, I feel completely confident now with this particular skill set to go forth and do whatever it is. I think that's a level of [00:48:00] mastery and then where you can take it from there it's completely up to you because every master has a master as we know and I think this concept is so important.

That every single artist has another artist that they aspire to. And it just keeps going on and on and

[00:48:15] ck: on. I love that. Thank you. I mean, I just got chills. Thank you for explaining that so articulately as you do. To me, mastery is the horizon. I never get there. But the level of competencies that I gain over time is the path to mastery.

Because I never set my mindset to mastery, then I never get there anyway, right? Exactly. So for anyone who claims, quote, unquote, I'm a master of this and that, you know, I would usually like take a double pause. Like, yeah, are you really, you know, kind of a little bit, you know, the engineer in me would be a little skeptical about that.

Just the egoic posture that you talked about. But if I see someone who put in sincere, earnest effort, discipline, and in [00:49:00] demonstrating their own competency level to me, that's, that's really what I was talking about, the, the, the yellow belt.

[00:49:05] Tony: Yeah. And they have a body of, depending on the modality, there's a body of work that backs it up, right.

And, and an approach, I have this really good friend. Uh, he's worked with me in a few albums and, uh, production. And, uh, once he was talking to someone. And I don't remember the context of the conversation anymore, but very casually, completely appropriately, he ended up saying something like, well, I'm a master musician, in response to something they said.

And there wasn't the slightest hint of ego or misunderstanding in that at all, because that's exactly what he is, right? Yeah, he studied for years, he had a professional career, he's produced music, played music, been on Broadway, right? And he is forever a student, complete humility. But at that moment he was also saying, like, well, yeah, I know what I'm talking about.

I'm a master musician. This is what I do [00:50:00] with my life, right? And I've never heard it used in that way where it had this absolute perfect balance of ownership and humility at the same time. And I feel like that's what a true master is.

[00:50:13] ck: So, on that note, uh, Tony, at what point in your journey, whether it's the 16 years or the 30 years of you pursuing this career path, let's just say, right, this intention that you have for you to claim, I'm now able to quote unquote be a teacher, a guide, um, you know, of sorts to help those who want to, who resonates with my, with my resonance, with my skill set, with my competency, et cetera.

What, what was it a, you know, light switch moment? All right, tada, I've arrived now I can serve or is it just more of a gradual realization? More and more confidence and in your competency.[00:51:00]

[00:51:00] Tony: Wow. That's such a great question because of what it brings up for me. Um, which I think is fairly universal. I think typically for most people, it comes from someone else. Whether it's a mentor you've been working with, or let's say a particular community, you know, um, calls you out, you know, it's like, one of the things we've talked about often in my, I Am Life community is most leaders are not leaders from ambition, they're leaders because they were chosen to be, they were leader, they're leaders because they were called out, right?

The community recognized you and wanted you to be a leader. And you, you accept that at some point, it's like, okay, I'll accept this responsibility and I'll do it to the best of my ability. Um, in my case, uh, a couple of things happened. So I have this really good mentor, his name is Russell. And, uh, back in the day, I remember I, this, I was doing, I was kind of getting my feet wet with the facilitation thing, but I was [00:52:00] still doing like theater and music and so forth.

And basically at some point he pulled me aside and he said, This is what you should be doing. You know, like this is what you were born to do. I needed to have somebody say that to me. Right. And I share this because if nothing else, somebody gets from this podcast, and I know you'll appreciate this. If you are a mentor.

A teacher or an instructor. Don't underestimate the power of permission that you give your students, right? I remember the same I was doing this theatrical production same time period that my teacher Russell said this to me, and I walked off the stage one night and we were all kind of hanging out after the show and this woman that I knew, I didn't know really well, but she was like a theater person, and she came up to me and she said, look, there's something I want to share with you.

She said, you may or may not hear it. And he literally, I kind of looked away and then she says to her friend, look, you can't even hear me. She grabs my [00:53:00] face. Literally. She goes, you are world class talent, right? She wasn't saying it for my ego at all, right? Somehow this woman, almost like a sage knew that I needed somebody like her to say that to me in a way that I could hear it, that I could own it, that I could stop questioning whether or not we all have this, like, can I be an artist?

I Can I really be an engineer? Can I really be a community leader? Yeah. Having somebody actually say to you point blank, it's like, look, you have talent. Yes, there's things you need to work on. There might be insecurities, but I want you to know if you choose to do this thing, you can do it. Right. Um, so those two things happened that shifted me in a particular direction.

And then the final piece was a really good friend who I love and respect. Forever. Her name is Miranda, who you know. Um, Miranda once after a ceremony came over to me and she said, You have mastered ceremony. And she said it in [00:54:00] this beautiful, very humble way that landed in the way that a person wants to hear it.

She wasn't saying, You are a master of ceremony. She said, I want you to know that you have nailed this thing. Like, And, uh, I think if I had any doubt at all left or insecurity around any of the choices I had made around ceremony work or the music as it relates to that, all of it vanished in that moment.

Right. And again, we don't realize to what degree we need to hear that sometimes from other people because you can harbor the thought as an affirmation for yourself. Right. But when someone else speaks it, it's like, Whoa, okay, there's a universe coming back at me.

[00:54:43] ck: I love that. Um, one of the practice that I do on the regular as a coach, but also as a human in general.

If I see someone shining their light, they're making an earnest effort, they're being super talented, whatever the thing is, if I see something, I feel it, I tell them. That's [00:55:00] a practice of acknowledgment. Sometimes it makes me feel a little uncomfortable. I've been told that, whoa, this is too much. But, I rather err on the side of telling them than, you know, being stingy and holding it back, cause that's just how I feel about it.

We ought to see tell people the thing the beautiful thing that we seen them. So that's one and the second one is We forgot what I was gonna say, but anyway, so that's one thing that I that that I do as a way to to invoke You know the the truth of beauty the

[00:55:35] Tony: wisdom and as I said to give people Permission that they may not even know that they need Having And those things said to me, the first two particularly, I would say in a lot of ways they really changed the course of my life because up to then I realized that I was harboring a secret [00:56:00] ambition or affirmation for myself that I could actually record music and, you know, be worthy of someone else listening to, right?

But having somebody that. didn't know me well to come up to me and say, Hey, I want you to know that that shifted everything for me. Right? I realized that it wasn't just some private, personal ambition of thought, you know, that I had hidden under insecurity. Uh, it was like, you know, she called me out. I was like, Oh, I got to kind of like step up my game here.

That's why it was so valuable. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:32] ck: It's almost, um, a recognition of the essence of who you are, your quote unquote Dharma path that you're, that you've been on. Secretly, nobody else knows, right?

[00:56:43] Tony: I have been doing a deep dive into the concept of Dharma for the last like eight days. And I'm so glad you brought it up.

Yeah, perfect. Go ahead, tell us what you learned. Many, many years ago. I don't want to lose your train of thought, but many, many years [00:57:00] ago, uh, a friend of mine took me to a city yoga. Event in Santa Monica and, uh, the head of the City Yoga Lineage, her name is Gurumai, was doing this whole talk on Dharma. And I remember being down there just going like, what the fuck is she talking about?

Like, not only did I not get it, I was convinced she didn't know what she was talking about. Right. And then of course you later, um, I started to understand like the, and it turns out it's because it's one of the things that doesn't have a direct translation, as you know. Um, But one of the ways that it's explained that I really resonate with is, uh, one of his definitions is Potentiality, right?

Your particular dharma. It's like, it's almost like, you know, what's gotten popular now is this idea of ikigai, you know, finding your life's purpose. Um, dharma is kind of almost referring to your your potential, right, in the particular lifetime and [00:58:00] That's very much what we're talking about when we're talking about mastery, right?

And this idea of finding your medicine and use it. It's all Dharma, right? It is just like looking at yourself honestly, and that's again where the plant medicine comes in. Let me strip away enough later so I can get an honest assessment of CK, right? And then it's like, here's what I think that I'm about, here's what I say that I'm about, and now I'm going to look at what it is that I'm really about, what it is that I'm up to and committed to.

Right. And then your dharma is like, well, now I can actually see my medicine, my potential, what it is I want to commit myself to and do it, right? Like start to live into that mastery, live into that dharma. Yeah. So I'm curious to hear your take on that relative to what I just shared about it. Oh,

[00:58:45] ck: for sure.

I mean, I've talked to a number of transformational coaches. Uh, one of them, I can't remember his name off the top of my head. Uh, it's going to come back to me. Anyway, that's all he's about. He's, he's, he's, he wrote a [00:59:00] book called The Great Works of Our Life. It's all about Dharma. And he, he studied the, the greats, the, the Mother Teresa's, the, you know, the Mahatma Gandhi's of the world and then discuss at length.

How they found their Dharma and what was surprising for me from studying that book and also having a conversation with the author was that they too had great insecurity, self doubt about the path that they're on. So it's like, Oh, so it's not just me as a human is even for the, these extraordinary human beings, they too have private self doubts.

Um, so the historical context around Dharma was. A profession, right? That's how it was explained. But to the modern interpretation that I have is What is the path, you know, that as emerging from within the essence of who you are and how can we use the essence, uh, use the unique superpower that we develop [01:00:00] over time service of others.

And, um, yeah, so, so that's why I'm a purpose coach and that's why I do what I do and do the podcast and all these things as a way to support people to. excavate the depth of who they are, you know, neutralize any barriers, any, any illusions, saboteurs that stops them from living that and amplify that and bring out.

[01:00:27] Tony: Yeah. And I like the concept of Dharma because it's not going to be something that's at odds with who you actually are and what you love your Dharma, as I'm understanding it. And all the things related to it, this idea of finding a medicine, it's actually always going to be in accord with your, your natural sensibilities, right?

You're, again, going back to bringing our conversation full circle, um, it's going to be [01:01:00] utilizing your natural tendencies and gifts. And, um, we said again, particular medicine, whether you are very methodical, you know, A to B kind of person, whether you're a very creative artist person, a very devotional, I just want to help everybody in my path, whatever it is, your Dharma is going to spring forth from that, right?

And it's going to be easy about that path because it's going to be like a very amplified version of yourself. It's you actually fulfilling your unique, I think, innate potential, right? So I share that because it's important. It's not like Oh, my God, I need to figure out something, my, my life purpose, people come to ceremony often with this intention.

I need to figure out my purpose, you know, and they think they're going to like, Oh, well that person over there is doing amazing things with elephants. I'm going to do that. I'm like, well, if you don't love elephants and you don't have a natural tendency, why the hell would you do that? Right. He's already got that covered.

[01:02:00] So my point being, I think the beauty of tying this back to the ayahuasca work and anything like that is. You want to get stripped down enough so that you, that authentic gift that you have, your Dharma can actually reveal itself. And sometimes it's surprising for people, right? Yeah. Sometimes people realize, you know, I realized that all I really want to do is help other unwed mothers, single moms, raising kids and like, then go be the best person out there doing it.

Right? Like fully commit to doing that and be extraordinary. Right. It really doesn't matter what it is. You know, I saw this organization. I think, um, well, if all they do lots of things, but one of them is whenever you see these disasters and boy, we got plenty of them currently earthquakes and floods and, you know, fires.

And, um, obviously there's a human response to that. And all these organizations on the ground that Russian to take care of people. A lot of people don't know there were organizations that [01:03:00] are solely dedicated to the pets. And the animals, right? And you talk to these people, and they realize, like, well, I, I, it was my calling.

It's like, I've always loved animals, I had some training as a veterinarian, I heard about this organization, and these, these people are amazing. Whenever there's a disaster, they are on the plane the next day, and their sole job is to retrieve and take care of and find and rescue all the pets and the animals that were affected by this thing.

Because, yeah, the humans are important, but what about these characters, right? And most of the people that do that kind of work, you find absolutely that it's their dharma. Like, There's no question in their life that this is what they're born to do because they love it. And they're very good at it.

[01:03:45] ck: So actually on that note, Tony, um, you've served thousands of people in different ceremonies and, um, you know, with people who listen to your music.

What are some of the landmarks, the [01:04:00] milestones of someone who lived their Dharmic path? recognize either for yourself or, you know, for your students, for the people that you serve as a way to help guide them, right. Towards, you know, who they really are.

[01:04:17] Tony: Well, it's a two faceted question for me personally, or for other people, um, for me, the milestones have been when I brought up, yeah, for me, it's been feedback from other people it's been, you know, having an insecurity around releasing. music. And then a month later getting messages from people all over the world, like how much beauty and healing that it brings to them, you know?

Um, so there's those kinds of moments. It's people contacting you six months after your ceremony and letting you know that, you know, they, it was, it turns out it was a life changing experience for them. So they're [01:05:00] thanking you a whole six months later, not six hours later. Um, That's really, really beautiful.

Um, and that, for other people, is the other milestone, you know? It's having people As a musician, and an artist, one of the biggest compliments is someone telling you, telling me that they've been inspired by something that I've done. Right? Um, and then it's somehow, again, this word permission, that it gave them permission To take on their dreams or to just feel inspired enough to want to live a creative life.

That's really beautiful. Right. And yeah, it's like the highest compliment. And through the ceremony work again, it's someone letting you know that the work that they've put into the ceremony space. It's actually being integrated and that their [01:06:00] relationship with their family and their life is completely transformed, you know, it's like, Oh, my family.

Now we get along. Great. There's all these shifts have happened. We've had all these healings. And I'm now actually doing the career that I feel like I'm aligned with. And those have been really, really powerful markers over the years. And whenever I get those kind of messages, I always write back the same thing.

I always say thank you so much for sharing this. It makes all the hard work worthwhile. And I mean it. It's like, that's what makes it worth it. Because you're not so much in it for yourself, as you know. You know, as I'm assuming we might be kind of heading towards wrapping up, I think the thing that's really valuable to me to share is anything that you do that you start to approach mastery at, The, the deep satisfaction you get from simply doing the thing itself starts to get replaced with the effect it's having on other people, right?

It's like, well, I know I can lead an ayahuasca ceremony and do a good job with [01:07:00] that. Or I know that I can record, you know, I know that I can write a song now like Grateful. And that, um, people are going to respond to it favorably. Right? So I know that. So the high of getting feedback on that is not the motivation for doing it.

Right? The motivation for doing it now is actually how it's landing on people. Right? Yeah. It's, it's the contribution that you're making. It's the effect you're having on other people. And for me, it's the finding out that it's inspiring other people to do things. Um, Relating this to your podcast and the work that you do, this idea of mastery, one of the things I really, I learned early on that I just absolutely love is, you know, every true master wants their students to surpass them, right?

And I found that to be absolutely true. It's like, if you're a master potter or master, you know, whatever it is, painter, Or somebody that works with bamboo, right, because I just watched a video on these Japanese bamboo, like, you know, masters. The [01:08:00] highest compliment is that your students surpass you and go to the next level.

And early on, I did start to see this pitfall of like, Oh, the young people that were studying with me, I was kind of getting threatened because they were getting really good, right? And then I realized, like, whoa, what am I talking about? Like, this is an absolute compliment to Not only my work with them, but to the craft itself.

It's like, I want to be the kind of teacher that teaches somebody how to be better at what I'm teaching them than I am. That's the best.

[01:08:36] ck: Yeah. Reminds me of, um, Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan as an example. Yeah, yeah. Phil Jackson himself wasn't a particularly extraordinary basketball player per se, but he himself understands the main fundamentals of basketball so well and the game so well.

And he could take someone who is extraordinarily gifted and skilled rather, [01:09:00] not gifted, because Michael Jordan got cut from, uh, from his high school, uh, so, so somebody who's dedicated to the next level and it's such a gratifying experience. It's very meaningful. It's very purposeful. Not necessarily from playing the basketball game, but I got what you said.

[01:09:18] Tony: Yeah. That's really it, you know, and. Speaking specifically around platinism work in ayahuasca, it's the same.

For the few people, there's only going to be a handful because there's not a lot of time for it. For the few young people that have actually been, um, like apprentices, right? And, or specifically come to me because they wanted to train and understand more about the work, and my particular approach to it.

All of them now are up and running and doing their own thing and doing it beautifully. And, in a lot of ways, [01:10:00] that's just the highest compliment to the work itself. And if you think about it, here's what's beautiful about that. I had a teacher, again, Russell, who invested a lot of energy and time and, um, to some degree, training in me.

And I could think, you know, what better way to bow down to this teacher, this sensei. Right? Then to go on and teach other students to be even better than I was myself. Right? Because there's something about bowing down to a whole lineage. Right? Of people that have come before that do what it is that you do.

Right? It's not just the ayahuasca work. It's, it's all the indigenous people. It's, it's all of the, the masters, the shamans, the kundanderos, the transformational coaches. You know, the, the therapist, all the people whose shoulders that you stand on over the years whose bits and pieces have allowed [01:11:00] me to show up the way I do.

When one of my students or apprentices nails something and they told me that they led this ceremony and it was beautiful. That's really a nod to everybody that I've ever worked with, right? That's kind of the way I see it. I'm like, holy smokes, thank you. And how proud I am and like honored to be in this lineage at all.

To even be called a musician, by the way. A what? Yeah. A what? To even be called a musician. Mm. I mean, and I mean musician when it gets to the place of artistry. Right? Um, I come from a long background of, uh, singers. My mom and her sisters were, amongst other things, they were, um, Igettes, with Ike and Tina Turner.

Um, and they were very popular backup singers in the 60s and 70s. They were called the Stovall sisters. And when I was growing up, everybody in my family could sing, right? They were in the gospel church, they were in the world of R& B music. Um, and so it was just like, you know, osmosis. It was like drinking water.

[01:12:00] Everybody could sing. I didn't think there was anything special about it. And because of it, I didn't think I could sing, certainly. It wasn't until like way after high school that I kind of realized that not only I wanted to sing, but that I actually could. Um, so I started training and so forth, and at some point, you reach this place where you realize that not only am I an artist, in this case a visual and performing and like musical artist, I'm actually in a lineage of artists.

And you don't have to be a master in that or like the best at that to claim that, right? To realize that in the history of the world. Let's say in your case, a history of engineers or a history of transformational coaches history in my case of Facilitators of plant medicine that you get to stand in that lineage and be part of that It's really a beautiful thing is something to be grateful for and to me to kind of have to honor Right.

I want to carry this on in a good way. There's a way I look at [01:13:00] it

[01:13:00] ck: It's important that I want to ask this question because you're both a musician and a facilitator of Ayahuasca, right?

So how do you combine them as a way to help you create the essence of who you are with the artistry that you have? You know, how the medicine plays a role in your creative process, you know, my talk about talking about that would be really

[01:13:24] Tony: great. Well, they're, they're seamless in the sense that, um, you're the same person doing it.

Um, and what I mean by that is, um, once you know it, I'm going back to this phrase again, because it really works for this podcast, uh, knowing what you're up to and being up to it. Um, once you know what it is that you're up to and what you're committed to. Everything that you do is coming from that same place, right?

So, when I am writing music, it's inspired by and informed by my ceremony work, [01:14:00] ayahuasca work, which is informed by my commitment to elevation of consciousness, which, interestingly enough, um, is absolutely informed by my passion for this bringing together of science and Spirituality, the technology of where the two meet is where I exist.

And I quite, I mean that quite literally. Quite honestly, it's where we all exist, right? Meaning there is this mysterious, mystical, magical aspect of life that we don't fully get, that we're living nonetheless. And then there is the technology and science of it that we're understanding more and more as we move along.

About how our bodies work, how the universe works. You know, um, just the idea, for instance, that there is no actual empty space, a space is actually something, right? And that we are emerging out of that field, whatever it is, right? This is a spiritual concept, right? But this is also a realization of quantum physics.

And that's what I [01:15:00] mean when I say the intersection of science and spirituality, mysticism and art is a reality where we all exist. So The work that I do comes from the intersection of those places. I'm always looking at, when I'm creating something, um, there's the artistry, there's the science, there's the mysticism, right?

And there's my wanting to transmit, right? Wanting to share, right? So they all come together when I'm writing music or creating a piece of art, right? It's like, how can I bring those things together? How can I bring my My, at this moment, understanding of these different realms and then share it in some way that is aesthetic, that aesthetically works, that in terms of transmission of a message or a meaning that it works, right?

And that's what keeps it interesting and fun for me. It's like, it's got to do all those things. I need to feel like it's actually good art. I need [01:16:00] to feel like it's communicating something valid, right, from my perspective, and it needs to happen in a way that is effective, meaning it's not woo woo, it's not over the top, it's not too abstract, at the same time it's not cliché, you know, um, you have to find, like, the role of artists in general is always to make the kind of invisible visible in some way.

Um, yeah, so that's how that all works for me. You know, and I can honestly say, you know, that is my day to day existence. Even as I move through the house, getting up in the morning and making tea to start the day, um, I'm already in this realm of aesthetic. I kind of submersed myself in this kind of aesthetic consciousness about being hyper aware of.

The beauty and the form and the texture of the cup that I'm about to grab. I'm thinking about where the tea came from, right? [01:17:00] The history of green tea and matcha. What does it mean that it's matcha? Where is it made from? Here's this amazing technology that I get this glass pot that heats up the water.

You get what I'm saying? It's like you can turn all of that into a meditation of how you move through the day. If you did just that in the morning with washing your face, brushing your teeth. Or making a glass of tea. By the time you get to work or sit at the computer, you're present and ready to go.

Right?

[01:17:26] ck: Yeah. So thank you for articulating that. If you don't mind describing a little bit of the process, maybe describe, you know, share one example, how the grateful song came to be.

[01:17:36] Tony: This is actually a perfect example of bringing the, all those worlds together. So,

the content of Grateful. A few things happened. One is I started to realize in ceremony that, and I share this very often in ceremony, one of the things I will say is, [01:18:00] if you were in this room, you're amongst the most privileged people on the planet. And most of the world's population would gladly take places with you and take on your problems, right?

This is true, right? Of most people in the West. And not universally true, not everybody wants what we have, right? But face it, most people do. And then I say, you know, the reason why gratitude is so important is that if you look carefully, the answer to most of our so called problems is actually just gratitude.

So I was really doing a dive and a kind of inquiry into gratitude, like what is it even? Like you can't really articulate what it is, it's a feeling, right? It's a state of being. It's a intellectual concept. So, a friend passed away. A good friend who had recently, this is ironic, had recently announced 17 years sobriety.

Within a few months of that announcement, started using again. Long story short, he eventually [01:19:00] passed away related to that. And I'm thinking about what the heck I would want to say at a funeral in a situation like that. And so that's where grateful came from. It was a combination of, as I was talking earlier about bringing kind of the intellect and the mysticism and the magic all together.

I wanted to say something about the importance of being grateful. And I also was looking at what's the valuable thing one would say at the end of one's life or somebody else's life. And what came to me was that it would be to be grateful to have lived it all. Right? So, Yeah, and it's for the simple thing.

So, as you know, for people that don't know that song, Um, it starts with, uh, For the moonlight falling through the trees And for this ground beneath our knees For the memories of love we have known forever [01:20:00] grateful. So that's the opening. Um, I'm setting this stage that this is what happened to me that I'm out in the forest, not standing.

I'm actually on my knees looking up at the trees and the moonlight and realizing like this moment is completely full. And I'm just so grateful that I live a kind of life that allows me to have this moment. And to have loved it all and thinking about my friend that had passed away. Yeah, I'm just so grateful that I've gotten to experience love.

The love didn't last forever. One of the, you know, things they don't tell you in the fine print when you're born is that it typically doesn't. But the experience of love does, right? Your actual, like, physical lived experience does it. But having had the experience of being in love. And knowing what that is.

And once you tap into that, that's the essence of the song. It's like, to have loved it all. Right, that's the main message. And to have lived it all. So, that's the process. I have [01:21:00] to set that up because my job was, how do I take that sentiment and then turn it into a piece of music that actually works aesthetically.

Um, In all the ways that music needs to work, right, for people to actually receive it and like hum along and sing to it. So, I created the early version of it. I started singing it in ceremony. It started to refine itself with the help of, uh, my friend Dylan and Diana, you know, who sing with me. And then my producer Johnny, I invite him to ceremony.

He hears the song. He goes, okay. I said, look, we need to like record this song, but I also want it to be universally accessible to other people. Right? So his job was to take the very mystical ceremony aspect of that song, keep that intact, but also give it a universal, you know, pop song, you know, uh, sheen, right?

That it would also be what we call competitive in the [01:22:00] marketplace. And that's exactly what he did, and that's what happened. And the rest is history. So, um, to break all that down, you go from Being authentic to your initial vision, the, in my case, the kind of mystical ceremonial sentiment. Then you have the discipline.

So we're talking about the discipline of artistry or as an engineer, the discipline is now I have to write the actual lyrics that are going to work in a particular song format that It's functional, right? And then the other discipline in the professionalism is choosing the right people, in this case my producer, and letting him do his job with me consulting of how to bring all of that and the musicians and the string players and bring all these different people into the studio and then finally the person that's going to mix it, you know, engineer it mix it and master it and my job and his job, the producer was to, every step along the way to maintain The authenticity of the initial vision so that it could land, right?[01:23:00]

So, one of the things I love is when somebody hears a simple piece of music, because I know better, is they're like, Oh, that's so amazing. It's just her and the guitar and it's beautiful. But they typically don't know it's everything that happened along the journey, right? So that that thing could go from its initial inspiration to land as it does to you, you know?

And I want to give an example about Adele. I'm giving a shout out to a pop artist. I remember hearing Adele. For the first time, I had been traveling, I didn't know who she was, I'm driving along the freeway in LA, I hear this woman singing, and I literally pulled over, right, because it was one of those moments when everything comes together.

Of course she had Rick Rubin producing, right, but her vocal performance, her lyrics, with this perfect production behind it. So good that I have to pull over because I don't want my driving and other people on the freeway coming between me and receiving this beautiful piece of art. And I remember thinking like, I want to create something like that.

I want to create a song that somebody has to like pull over [01:24:00] and listen to. And granted, needless to say, I'm not comparing Grateful to like Rolling in the Deep. But I will tell you, somebody wrote me and told me verbatim that's what happened. They said, I'm just sitting here at this stop sign. Listening to Grateful, you know, my mother passed away and we're going to be playing this song, uh, for her at the memorial service.

And I just needed to pull over and just really take it in and I felt like, ah, yes.

[01:24:27] ck: Hmm. Hmm. So gratifying. I bet. That's amazing. That's amazing.

[01:24:34] Tony: It was really amazing because it's not about how many people you're reaching, you know, Um, I'm reaching, you know, like the Birdtribe album has like 104, 000 quote unquote weekly listeners on Spotify.

Adele's got, you know, what, 8 million. That's irrelevant. And I say this because it's important for artists to know. It's whether or not you achieve the thing [01:25:00] you set out to achieve, right? I wanted to create a piece of music that was so true and authentic to my initial inspiration that someone would want to pull over.

And fully listen to it. And that happened, right? And then I'm on to the next thing, right? It just, it was so fulfilling to know that, uh, that I was capable of it. And going back to this conversation about mastery, you know, it gave me the confidence to know that I could do it and I wanted to keep doing it, basically.

So,

[01:25:32] ck: quick question about that by the way, cause music is emotion, synonymous in my mind. And when you are a designer, when you play a music piece, you are intentionally creating a emotional experience for them, and in this case is in the name, I experience a experience of gratitude. It's so moving that it makes me cry.

Or, you know, stop by, you know, by the side of the road. Or, you know, by [01:26:00] the side of the road. To experience the gratitude of being alive, having friends, living this moment, talking to Tony Moss and all these things, right? So So, do you think about this sort of the emotional architecture about it?

[01:26:12] Tony: This is again, I mean, It's a beautiful, beautiful It's a beautiful conversation about this process because of who I know your audience is because it can apply to anything.

It has to do with being True and authentic to your initial vision. And one of the ways you're going to do that is by also bringing online your skill set, your professionalism, your discipline. Right. So. I had a profound experience of gratitude in my own life. I also knew how important the experience of gratitude and the kind of almost called the science of gratitude.

The importance of a quote unquote attitude of gratitude in one's life. I knew how valuable that was. I knew that the song couldn't just talk about it, [01:27:00] right? Um, I couldn't just pass along an intuitional concept. Somehow the song itself, the experience of listening to the song, had to evoke a feeling of gratitude.

So this is what's beautiful about Part of that isn't going back to what I was saying earlier, bringing these different aspects of oneself together. Part of that is intuition. It's me understanding what's me tapping into my own feeling of gratitude and what that feels like. And then being able to write poetically and intellectually together.

Lyrics that could convey that. And then in the very engineering. Left, you know, we'll call it left brain aspect of what recording music is. You have to maintain the vision of that. So that when you start adding buttons and knobs and yeah, everything that's required in engineering, um, what things my producer, Jonathan [01:28:00] Akaki, who's brilliant at, is never losing that thread.

It's bringing in all the technology is just another color. It's just paint and tools and, um, yeah, different tools in your toolbox. all in service to the, the original vision. Um, yeah, so it was everything from which instruments to choose the arrangement of the strings, the arrangement of the song, how I'm singing, right?

I know from beginning to end, I'm taking people on a particular journey. So bringing in what you just brought up about emotion. Um, if I'm not, although I'm in a clinical setting, In front of the microphone, and I'm singing this song, I have to transport myself to at all times, even though we might have to sing it 20 times, I have to keep bringing myself back to the state of gratitude, where I'm singing the song from, and make sure that that's [01:29:00] what I'm communicating.

Everything else is going to be just dressing that up, right? The strings and the arrangements and the. Yeah, all the effects and everything that goes into making a modern record. Um, the vocal performance and the lyrics are most important. That's the actual song. So, I relate this to any other project. If what you want to do, let's, I'm just going to relate it to engineering and being an architect for a moment.

Just to give an example of what I mean. If your initial spark is, I want to create a public space that actually fosters connection. In this space, I want people to run into each other and connect, right? And I wanted to have a sense of airiness and openness and, uh, let's say, connecting with the natural world.

Great. You've got to be true to that, like, all the way to the end, right? So if you start to design and architect, you can't lose that thread the entire time, or you'll end up somewhere else, right? Yeah, and that's where I say you have to have the kind of [01:30:00] intuitive, artistic, creative, almost mystical vision first.

And then all of your skill sets, your training, your years of study and all of that, then you call upon that to support that vision, right? And keep it intact. So that in the end you can look at the project and go, there I did it. It wasn't what I thought originally was going to be, but now I've got this beautiful open space.

People are here. They're connecting into it. There's a sense of nature around it and yeah, my job is done and it's very satisfying.

[01:30:31] ck: What I'm hearing from everything that you said is. A definitive, deep self awareness of what graphic design means. And, and, and then In this case, yes. And creating the lyrics and The song, with the vocals, right? With the vocals, right. There's the core Yeah,

[01:30:49] Tony: there's, there's the lyrics and then there's the actual melodic structure of the song.

[01:30:53] ck: Correct. and then, um, when you perform, and then add the, the packaging around it, [01:31:00] the engineering, the technology, and all these things around it as a way to help forward the thread forward, the vision that you had in your mind. Yeah. And then when you perform, bring forth again, right? Bring forth in the goal at that highest state of gratitude in your performance.

So then the technology, the engineering, all things can amplify. The vibration, the energy that you bring forth, that's how I'm visualizing when you're describing your creative process.

[01:31:31] Tony: Absolutely. And, and that is specific to, I want to talk about quickly about that versus the concept of jazz. And, and when I say jazz, I'm referring to any other field, you can be architectural jazz too.

What I mean is, Grateful had a very specific intent. I knew what it was, I knew what I wanted to convey and everything had to be in service to that. Also, incredible weird music has come from, like with the Bird Tribe [01:32:00] album, we just sat in the studio and said, hey, play that flute. Was that one thing you played?

Like, oh, this sounds good with that. I'm going to do that. And then somewhere in that process, And then you're kind of, before I knew it, at least in this case, in the Bird Tribe album I was singing, you know. And Pink Dolphins is one of the songs. The lyric for the last thing we added, right? We were just playing with all these different things.

They harmoniously work together. I give it to our producer, arranger in this case, Jonathan, because I produced that album. And then when he came back, he said, I'm hearing kind of a vocal thing that would kind of do this. And I ended up singing, you know, Medicina, my divina, Volcana da floresta. Well, that song just became Disneyland.

It was like, Plant medicine in ayahuasca, inner child, you're on the river, which everybody is when you go to Peru. And I just had this visual of traveling down the Amazon River and how, what an enchanting experience that is. [01:33:00] And particularly when you're on medicine, aside being what I call an adult Disneyland, we wanted that song to capture that feeling.

That came about because we were playing, not because we had a vision to begin with. I bring that up because it's really too. Almost polarities are the same thing about reaching the same goal. You can have a very specific intent about a project, right? And, like, grateful, this is what I want to do, something about grateful.

The other is the importance of play. Some of the most brilliant pieces of art, or I would say, inventions, as we know, that have come forth and had huge impacts on humanity came from somebody just playing. Right? Just kind of ripping on different ideas and suddenly this universal inspiration comes in. It's like, Whoa, that's an incredible song.

We should go with that. Right? Both things happen in my world and equally are, they're both equally beautiful. I would say the first one relies more on my skill set and discipline as an artist, as an artist. Like [01:34:00] I really have to be disciplined to make this initial thing land the way I want. The second is more my ability to surrender to the artistic process, right?

And just let the creativity flow through and collaborate with other people. Before you know it, you have, you know, some magical piece of work, right? Or a piece of sculpture, whatever it is that you didn't set out to create, but it starts to tell you what it wants to be as you move along. I'm much

[01:34:25] ck: more familiar with the first approach, as you can imagine.

Very intentional, engineering. Yeah, the A to B. A lot of structures. But, what I've also learned over the years is if I try to control it too much, I kill it. That's the spirit. That's the same thing. I've learned ways to relax. Yeah. I'm not so familiar with the second approach, which is the jazzy, you know, improvisational, you know, with flow, let's just play, for someone like me who is not so familiar with [01:35:00] that, what are some of the tactical practices, disciplines that I can try on as a way to cultivate that.

Play on a playground and on create kind of a thing on screen, the moment kind of a

[01:35:11] Tony: thing. I don't know, because it's so relative to each field. I know that in general, from my entire experience of life, honestly, from a, uh, very early age, most of the masters of a particular R form or technology that I've encountered.

All of them have stressed the importance of play to some degree, including Einstein, you know, um, It doesn't have to be play within your specific field, you know, but I would imagine, you know, it's like, Yes, I'm an engineer, an architect, and I play with Legos, you know, or did at some point. It's that aspect of play, of being able to not just rely on your programmed information, or what you already know about [01:36:00] the world, It's about tapping into intuition, however you cognize that, right?

Tapping into the field of ideas and intelligence around you, and being able to let that inform your skill set, right? I would think whether you're an engineer or an architect or medical doctor, all of them said the same thing. There's something about the aspect of jazz, conceptually, that is really important to any modality, any field of discipline.

Where, yeah, obviously, if you're going to create a building, right, I'll say a dam and you're an engineer, you need to go from A to B and everything needs to work so you don't like, you know, kill people, right? But in the design process, there's always room for play and imaginary. It's like, well, before I start this actual blueprint of this thing, let me play with all the possibilities.

Maybe I need to think outside the box. And instead of doing what seems automatic, you know. I'm going to take all these like this. I'm going to take [01:37:00] this clay and these blocks and I'm going to throw a bunch of things down and, and more often than not, people will tell me they do get a brilliant idea from that, right?

And then you rely on your skills to actually bring it to fruition. So that's what I'm talking about. Um, I don't think you don't have to be an artist in any traditional sense of that in any of those modalities to have the idea of. Jazz and play inform your work, right? I

[01:37:31] ck: mean, everything that we do, the way I see it is everything we do is an extension of our consciousness.

Whether it's you're writing a book, having a podcast, writing a song, making a building, making a business. There's a lot of creative process that comes through and might be another truth. My opinion of the truth is that whatever we create can't extend beyond our own consciousness. It's an extension of our consciousness, [01:38:00] right?

So I'm back to why I love the work that I do, why I'm assuming you love the work that you do is because this is the source of everything. And the more we can let go of the distortions, the illusions, the limiting beliefs we have around our consciousness. The more we get to play, the way we, the more we get to cultivate our discipline towards mastery and create, you know, a life of beauty and wisdom and all the truth and all the things that we choose, that inspires us.

That's what I got in this conversation.

[01:38:34] Tony: Yeah. You know, you reminded me of, um, There's a group of art that I'm creating that's, uh, An extension of the release of the new album project. The album's called Joy. Oh, yay.

[01:38:49] ck: Like, you know. I'll

[01:38:51] Tony: Awesome. I'll agree to that. Awesome. Yeah, and it's interesting. Yeah, I'm so glad you said this.

I'll agree to that. And that I even thought to bring this up. And the reason is, Grateful [01:39:00] landed. I mean, we've done Birds in Paradise, but Birds in Paradise, uh, was from Bird Tribes. It was a group collective effort. And I hadn't done a full album of my own, uh, prior to The, uh, Bird Tribe album I just released, Grateful.

And I remember thinking one night in ceremony, like, Okay, maybe I want to do one album, like a full length. Well, what do you follow up Grateful with? And it came to me like, well, of course, Joy, right? Um, and Joy because of its deeper connotation than happiness, right? You don't have to be happy, right, to have a deep sense of joy with the experience of being alive.

And that's what the album is about. It's not a bunch of, like, happy songs, right? It's about this deep experience of, like, being joyfully alive. So, relative to what you were just saying, the reason I brought this up is, on one of the pieces of art, I was at a friend's house, in the bathroom, of all places, and he had this quote on the wall, and it's actually part of the art for [01:40:00] the album.

Um, one of the pieces I'm creating, and it just reminded me of what you just shared. It says, uh, it's by, uh, one of the few, well, one of the Maharajis. This was Nisargadatta

from the book, I Am That. And it says, In reality, you are not a thing nor separate. You are the infinite potentiality, the inexhaustible possibility. Because you are, all can be. The universe is but a partial manifestation of your limitless capacity to become. And I fell in love with that for the reasons that you just brought up.

Um, that the world we see around us, our lives, even in the moments when we can't see it, they are in reality an extension of our consciousness, of how we're interacting with life and the universe. In that quote he says, because we are, all can be. And we are this infinite potential and possibility kind of going back to Dharma.

[01:41:00] And some people have said things like, Oh, well, that's a very first world perspective. Um, that quote wouldn't mean much to you. If, let's say if you were in a refugee camp someplace and starving, I'm like, actually, it still applies because we're also talking about a collective consciousness. Right. The world as we see it.

There's this quote, you know, I think it might be from. Just asking, I'm not sure, but it's this concept of the whole catastrophe referring to the whole drama of human existence. All of it is an extension of our consciousness. If you look and see the craziness in the world, you know, the wars, the famines, even I think to some degree the natural disasters.

Um, a lot of it, if not all of it, depending on which lens you're looking at it from, all of it is an extension of our internal conflict. Our. Internal growth process, our outer manifestation of our internal experience of [01:42:00] being live. And this is what I mean by elevating consciousness. The more people you can bring into this field of gratitude, into a field of dharma in terms of wanting to help people reach their full potential, as opposed to wanting to exert your power over everything no matter what.

I have to believe and believe at this point from my own personal experience that we can shift the whole dynamic and experience of life on the planet in general. So that's why I'm committed to work that I do. It might only show up sometimes in little increments, like somebody, you know, pulling over on the side of the road and questioning their life in a good way because you're listening to a piece of music I wrote.

It might be someone writing me, which has happened and said. Because of that ceremony I was in with you, I've now quit my job and I'm now in Costa Rica and I'm working with these kids that are helping bring water to this village. Um, it's all possible. There's nothing that's [01:43:00] not possible. And as an engineer and an architect and a doctor, like, you have to hold the possibility that, I mean, the world needs engineers, let's just bring it back to you.

Some people, I think I heard this on the Lex Friedman podcast, somebody said like, Oh, well, most of the problems facing the world are engineering problems, right? I think yes, and they are engineering problems, and they are also consciousness problems, right? It won't matter if you discover a new way to bring energy to the world if you can't get Cultures, politics, right?

You can't get all those things to line up and actually bring this to people and empower them. It doesn't really matter. So they all work together. I just happen to be personally working in the realm of consciousness. That's the way I see it.

[01:43:52] ck: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, Tony. Thank you for sharing that, Tony.

Everything that we do. Everything that we do. [01:44:00] The mindset that I have is our external reality is a reflection of internal reality. It had a deeper appreciation of that quote, right? It's not just a concept. When I was in a room with a lot of people from my business group and they were arguing about certain things, and then insight that I got in that moment is, ah, this is what, this is what?

my mind looks like externalized. My mind looks like is people arguing for their point of view and they're trying to be right. They're like, oh, this is quite interesting. Mm-Hmm, . So I had a, a visceral, like, like a vision. Like, oh, this is, this is an extension of what's going on in my chaotic mind if I, I don't find alignment.

Alignment within.

[01:44:44] Tony: And I think in a, again, bringing together this kind of, what some people might hear is like abstract, esoteric. Bringing it into, uh, where the rubber meets the road in more practical language.

[01:45:00] If you're raised in a culture where women are undervalued and in fact denigrated, right, chances are very slim that you're not going to treat women that way when you grow up, right? Um, so I use this as an example of how what you just said still applies, even if you remove the kind of asterisk aspect of it out of the way.

We are all conditioned by culture and family and, you know, belief systems, and we perpetuate behaviors culturally. So in places where children or girls, right, using these very broad examples, in places where they're not valued, and in worst case scenarios, even denigrated, as you mature in that particular culture, you participate.

And the continuation of that. So you're still seeing, if you think about it, an externalization of your internal process. Right? [01:46:00] Like, I see the world in a particular way, and sure enough, this is the way it shows up. Right? Versus growing up in a place that's, let's say, a matriarchal society, or in a place where children are celebrated, or women are seen as valuable, you know.

If that's what you grew up with, and that's the attitude you're holding towards people, or another race of people, that's the way it's going to show up. And, um, yeah, looking at what's happening in the Western culture right now, just tapping in for a second with like the divisions happening, let's say with race or gender, you know, um, people on either side of those extremes.

If you're on the far, far left and you're looking at everybody conservative, right? Um, or fundamentalist, anything as the enemy, they pretty much only show up to you that way. Right? And it goes in reverse, obviously. Someone on the far, far right who sees every liberal idea and every liberal person as the enemy.

Right? [01:47:00] We end up in this world of polarity because both of those consciousnesses are fighting, right? That's the real war, right? They're fighting for dominance, right, over who's going to control this reality. It's like, well, none of you can, right? Um, quite literally. You know, the best we can hope for is to meet in the middle and have conversations and try to create a world to, you know, quote Rodney King, where like, can't we all just sing a song, you know?

Like, can't we all just get along? I tend to think this is the message of history over and over again. Is that there is no one culture or ideal or religion or dharma that is going to dominate anything, right? Every single time it's happened, it ends disastrously. What we can do is create pluralistic societies where, bringing our conversation full circle, where a person's dharma, a person's unique gifts and talents and unique expression is valued.

Not only valued, but, um, Cultivate it and [01:48:00] celebrate it, right? And in that diversity, life takes off, right? A culture, wherever it is in the world, any place in the world, any time period in the world, all the great cities that we've heard about in great cultures, typically were places where lots of different types of cultures came together.

You know, like, As far as we know, we owe a lot, current society as we know it, uh, civilization owes so much to just the Silk Roads, right? Where all these different ideas, we're meeting and collaborating and integrating for the first time and borrowing from each other and informing. Yeah. I tend to think that's life at its best.

It's at the edges. You know, it's where every different culture has developed something specific, some beautiful Human expression, which is apparently the definition of culture, human expression. And then you bring them all together and like, now let's do jazz. It's beautiful.

[01:48:53] ck: Tony, we, we, we talk a lot. We talk a lot about different things.

I'm going to take a moment to [01:49:00] announce. Is there anything else that, that would cover a lot of ground? Is there anything that if someone can leap with one thing, what is one thing that you really wanted to drive home? Hey, remember this one thing. And we made this one

[01:49:13] Tony: thing. Well, we've been talking about it the entire time.

I think the most important aspect of our conversation, particularly as it pertains to the work that you're doing, is this idea of Dharma, Ikigai, potentiality, find your medicine. It's all the same thing. It's one, being willing to be honest with oneself about who one is. To be whatever technology, transformational tool you take on.

Be willing to strip away the layers of illusion about yourself and land in some honest relationship and conversation with yourself first. From that, again, know what you're up to and be [01:50:00] up to it. Find what it is that turns you on, what your natural propensity, passions, and gifts are. And be willing to surpass the limitations of cultural conditioning or self imposed conditioning.

And, yeah, I think, not only for yourself, take it on, but take it on as a contribution to life. Take it on as what it is that you can participate and offer to the whole catastrophe. That's it.

[01:50:35] ck: Donate. I really, really appreciate you being here, sharing your life story. Your life is a ceremony. You know how you've grown from, you know, your bridging and, and at the interface between music, plant medicine, consciousness, elevation for the last 30 plus years.

And taking all these beautiful tools, the wisdom that you've studied from the [01:51:00] Amazon jungles to the Western society and really bring that bridge as a way to amplify, or accelerate rather, the uh, alleviation of these, the alleviation of these. In disempowering beliefs, the shadows, shadow, the things that stops us from really seeing who we are as the bright spirit, living a human life, and so that we can be of service to.

Others, family country world as Confu Confucius would say, uh, I'm really excited that you're launching another album called Joy. 'cause that's another thing that I really, that came to me doing medicine ceremonies. I can't wait to hear this musical embodiment of Tony Mo Joy. Tony Mos

[01:51:48] Tony: Joy. Yeah, I'm excited too.

Thank you. And, uh, it's just a, as I said earlier, but the last thing I want share with you is, uh. That idea of someone that, [01:52:00] that you've met along the way that you get to encounter later and watch them blossom. You know, one of those people I had very little to do with, like who you are, you know, but just from my initial meeting of you and this sitting in conversation with you and you know, to say what a beautiful human being you are and what you're committed to, and the things that you're willing to enthusiastically.

delve into and share with other people. It, it's an inspiration for me too. So I just wanna also just thank you and acknowledge you for the work that you're doing. Big hugs.

[01:52:34] ck: Tony, once again, thank you for being here. Tony, once again, thank you for being here. Thank you.