179 Beyond Achievements: Nichol Bradford’s Guide to Emotional and Spiritual Wellbeing for Leaders

[00:00:00] ck: Welcome to Noble Warrior. My name is C. K. Lin. This is where I interview entrepreneurs and practitioners about how they master their mind and body to pursue a life of greater purpose, joy, and success. Today's episode, we have the executive in residence for AI and HI at the Society for Human Resource Management.

She's the co founder and partner for The Arrhythmia Collective at an early stage venture fund. She's the co founder of Transformative Tech, the largest global ecosystem for founders, investors, who are building technology for human flourishing. She's on a mission to create a future where technology serves as a catalyst for deeper actualization.

Please welcome Nicole Bradford.

[00:00:47] Nichol: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[00:00:50] ck: Nicole, I'm so glad that you're here. In honorable warrior, we talk a lot about while the source of our superpower often emerges [00:01:00] from our deepest wounds. So Nicole, consider your profound commitment to leverage technology to foster human connection, empowerment.

I'm curious to learn a little bit more about your human journey. Can you recall the first moment where you felt truly lonely and disempowered and how did that shape your, you know, commitment? To help humans connect

[00:01:29] Nichol: Did you just ask me about my inner wound?

[00:01:35] Speaker: Well, you did share that on your Ignite. No, no,

[00:01:37] Nichol: no, no, no, no. I don't have a problem. It's just, it's just, I'm just teasing. Um, you know, one of the beautiful things about growth communities is that, um, you know, we all sort of acknowledge that and all of us are, you know, You know, having these human experiences and that comes with a lot of different ways to do that.

And so, um, I love that. It's like first question. [00:02:00] It's like, so, and I, you know, I would say, and, and I know, you know, you've been to the conference. And so. You've heard me talk about this before, but I think, you know, when I sort of like look back across the journey of my life, a big chunk of it really was, um, you know, I felt for most of my life profoundly alone.

And very lonely and, um, I was working in China and then I went on a meditation retreat and I felt, um, the web of life, I felt connected and, um, without knowing, you know, I didn't know what that was. I just, you know, for the first time in my life felt deeply, truly, completely connected and, um, that, you know, set me on a, on a completely different life path.

Um, and I changed my whole life and I moved to the bay and started [00:03:00] transformative tech and a bunch of other things, you know, towards, you know, creating really connection.

[00:03:08] ck: That's beautiful. And so for most people who have touched on that, those type of experience. They either, uh, well, I changed the life, they either end up chasing it, right?

Oh, let me keep going back to meditation retreats or ayahuasca journeys, whatever the case may be, or, um, let me actually shift my professional endeavors to, you know, bring more of that into the world. So I'm curious, like, how has that been shifting? Cause you had a moment and then what happens after, you know, you said, I'm going to shift and move to San Francisco and Did you touch more of those moments?

Is it more, uh, as your co founder, uh, Jeffrey Martin was a persistent, what is it? Fundamental wellbeing. There you go.

[00:03:55] Nichol: Yeah. I mean, I guess you're, there's sort of like the [00:04:00] outside, you know, there's the outer journey and then there's sort of what the inner journey is. And so, you know, on the outer journey.

You know, fundamentally, I have always been a believer in science and technology, and I, you know, grew up, um, my father was a plumber, a little black girl from Houston, Texas, and I grew up watching Star Trek, and seeing a world where humanity, for the most part, was on the same page, and, We cleaned up our home world, and we were in the business of exploration and helping other people, and it was a, you know, it was a meritocracy, all races, all species, and, um, you know, as someone in the 70s, growing up in Texas, where race was a really big subject, um, you know, it just, you know, I just sort of, it was sort of like, ah, the future science and technology.

Um, it makes sense. Um, and so I always had an orientation towards. [00:05:00] And, um, and I've always had a love of technology, but what I saw in China working on World of Warcraft before I had my experience is I saw families. playing together, friends playing together, you know, it's like a video game. 70 percent of people who play games are playing with other people.

They're not playing alone. It's not a solo endeavor. Um, and so I actually saw, you know, a lot of goodness on the back end. And, um, so I was already a believer that technology can enable and empower us. And so when I tasted the web of life, um, you know, the real, Question for me was like, how do we use technology to make that that experience available to all?

Um, you know, and that's like a really big bucket. Um, but, you know, then you sort of get into the nitty gritty of what that actually looks like. Um, but, you know, that was on the outside that I just, I already believe [00:06:00] in science and technology and people. I believe in people. Um, so I already believed in humans.

I already believed in science. I already believed in technology. And so it's just sort of like, we can use the technology and the science to understand ourselves a bit more, to, to be more connected, you know, then we could solve our problems. So that was kind of my orientation. Then on the inside, um, it was, You know, becoming someone who, um, had the ability and the capacity, uh, to become, you know, more and more connected to myself, um, and to others.

Um, and so that's the, you know, that's, that's the journey, whatever we call it, whether it's meditation or medicine or, you know, transcranial brain stimulation, like however we're doing it, that's what the longing is for. We have a deep longing for ourselves. We have a deep longing for one another.

[00:06:56] ck: So as a follow up question.[00:07:00]

It's a little bit of a paradoxical because some people see technology actually separates us from our innate intelligence, and I know that's not your point of view. Your point of view is how do we use technology to enhance, you know, augment this innate intelligence. So where is the balance, right, of using it to enhance versus to replace, you know, because some people again, I'm using another metaphor.

Oh, AI is going to take over and because it's going to help, you know. Replace our thinking ability versus my perspective. I believe this is your perspective too. Well, with those that you use it too well, you can actually help us even more human, bring out the human ingenuity, the creativity. So we don't have to do the low grade level stuff.

Anyways, without digressing too much, how do you find that balance between. using technology to find the bodies in the intelligence versus, you know, displace it and supplement.

[00:07:58] Nichol: Yeah. You know, there's a, [00:08:00] there's a specifically around AI. There's, you know, there's a lot of fear and anxiety out there. And, um, and I get it, you know, I totally get it.

A lot of the people who are expressing it the most there, they, a lot of people haven't actually used it. Like when you sort of like look across the U S a lot of people haven't actually used it in a way that they recognize. So, if you've been, if you've been using Google, you've been using AI. You know, it just doesn't, um, It just doesn't do your work for you, you know, but if you've been using Google, if you Google, you're using AI.

Um, and so, you know, I was looking at an interesting study that, um, uh, Sherm just did where an HR person in, you know, and they help with workforce planning. Right. That's a big part of what an HR person does. Um, the ones who work in companies, uh, [00:09:00] That have started using it. So not AI companies, but companies that are using AI, especially generative AI, there are 16 times more likely to believe that, um, it's job enhancing and expanding than job replacing and it's from exposure.

So, what that looks like for the average person is that, you know, you start to play with it. And then you start to think, Oh, I wonder if I could do this with it. I wonder if I could do that with it. You know, and then it's sort of like this exposure leads to curiosity, curiosity leads to a level of fluency and then, you know, we're all at the starting mark with this.

I think one of the things that scares people so much is the speed, um, because, you know, where it took us to go from like floppy disks, um, and not the hard ones, the soft ones to now, you know, like that's like 20, [00:10:00] that took 20 years. But, you know, this, if you just were looking at Sora the other day, even though all this stands on a decade or more of work, really, it didn't just happen.

It just looks like it just happened. Um, you know, the text video generation in 18 months is like, you know, it's just the timelines are shorter. Um, so I get the fear. Um. The, the challenge or the problem with the fear is that, um, this isn't going away, like it's not going away. Um, but the only way we actually get to the upside is to not focus on fear.

We have to find out how we have to use it and find out how to expand, um, you know, our, um, capabilities and, you know, jobs with it. And that takes engagement. So we [00:11:00] have to actually get in there and we can't be afraid what we're doing. We need to be prudent. There's a lot of things requiring prudence, but prudence and fear have a neurobiological difference.

[00:11:10] ck: Hmm. Okay. Um, there's a question I want to ask about AI, but then prudence and fear. Okay, let me double click on that a little bit. Because part of my work as a coach is to help people discern, right? That space between stimulus and response, right? You have a stimulus and then there's a thousand things you could do.

There's the fear response and there's the higher self response, you know, out of the thousand in that moment. Which one do you pick? So, I was going to ask you that later on, but since you brought it up. So what are some of the, um, maybe data, quantitative or qualitative can you discern as a human? Um, hey, this is coming from my lower self.

[00:12:00] Fear, anxiety, worry. Oh, this is from a higher self purpose, curiosity, passion, et cetera. So do you have anything? Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:11] Nichol: Well, I'd like to double click a little bit on prudence versus fear. So, um, what do you like? What's your favorite sport? What do you do? Are you a hiker? Do you hike?

[00:12:25] ck: Um, do your sport?

Yeah. Um, I mean, yeah, bodyweight sports, you know, things like that. Hike. Yeah.

[00:12:31] Nichol: So you hike. So when you go on a hike, let's say you're going on an eight hour hike. Are you going to take water?

And are you going to take a snack? Maybe more than one snack.

[00:12:46] ck: Yep.

[00:12:47] Nichol: And you'll probably take a flashlight and you make sure you have good shoes. Make sure you have your phone. And you make sure you have a battery pack, because there's a lot of things that [00:13:00] if you don't have, if you go on an eight hour hike and you don't have any of that, you can have a bad hike.

Right? Um, but when you start that hike, are you afraid? You're prudent, you know, because you're, you've like, you're equipped. And so that's really the difference between prudence versus fear. It's not, um, you know, that we, you know, I think there is some sort of like there is going to be a regulatory element to AI and to how we deal with it.

Um, I think that transparency is going to need to be required. I think organizations are going to have to be responsible for their agents. You know, if an agent tells you you can get a refund, but it's not the company policy, the company's gonna have to honor the refund. Because it's their agent. You know, and, and that has to be turned into a law and precedent.

Um, so there's, there's things that have to happen. You know, we need our backpack with our [00:14:00] batteries and our snacks. We really need our snacks. Um, you know, and we need, uh, we need all of that. Um, there's a difference between that and, and fear. And so for me, personally, to answer the personal question, how do I tell between when I'm going for my.

Lower self or my higher self, you know, a really I have a good answer for that So if if you have old arguments if you start hearing an old argument in your head you know with people that you are no longer even maybe talking to like they're from your like if you see if you if you if you Replay an argument that's more than a year old If you, um, the other day I had something going on and, and I actually like came up with like a full strategy on [00:15:00] how I was going to, um, I had a little bit of frustration with United, but something else was going on and I had this full strategy about how I was going to go on the dark net and buy United employee emails and send them my complaint letter about something that happened on United.

But I was going to send it to all of them. I think there's like 70, 000 of them and it's like, I'm going to do, you know, that's a pattern. Like if you're making up like, you know, complaint, complaint fantasies with United, um, about some righteous wrong, you're in a pattern. And, uh, and so there's probably some fear.

Um, You know, some place. And so, if you're using the word should, that's a good sign. You're in a pattern. Uh, and so, maybe it's not fear, but there's something that doesn't want to be felt. Um, and so, I just, you know, pay attention. [00:16:00] I ask myself where I'm coming from. Um, and I ask, um, I have five questions I ask myself.

Um, I ask, um, I turn inside and I say, and I ask what is unsaid, what is undone, um, what is unowned, or what is unasked. And the difference between said and asked, said might be a boundary, and asked might be there's something I actually really want and I'm afraid to ask, and it's like vulnerability. So I ask those four questions, and if, if I, if I have an unsaid and unasked and undone, um, you know, or, um, what was the, what was the other one?

Anyway, because I said them in a different order. If I get an answer to any of those then I do the thing So if

[00:16:54] ck: you get an answer do this, okay. Got it So you're exact essentially examining your [00:17:00] blind spots and then if I answer comes you go next yeah, so

[00:17:04] Nichol: if I'm if I'm feeling chunky and I ask what's unsaid and I realize I haven't set a boundary Then I set the boundary

or

if I'm feeling, you know, something and I, you know, and I ask what is undone and I realized that I'm out of integrity.

There's something I said I was going to do and I didn't do, I go do it, or I go call the person and tell them that I can't do it, didn't do it. But, you know, I own it. Um, so I can get back into integrity. Um, you know, so I go through that. And then, then the other thing I ask is I ask if there's, um, if there's a bridge that I can lay down.

Um, to someone else, because it's like we're, you know, we're all so lonely. The world is so lonely, and it's been my observation that if you lay down a bridge, people will pull vault across it. [00:18:00] Like, we just, we're hungry for it. Um, and so, I'll see if there's, if I'm out of connection. With myself or another person or if I want more connection, you know Then I will connect with myself or i'll connect with the other person.

[00:18:19] ck: That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that

[00:18:23] Nichol: Thank you. I um my um My auntie passed last year and she was like my mom and like I've been my bestie and it was a really Um, I learned a lot. I have my I have a very specific life philosophy now

[00:18:40] ck: Yeah,

[00:18:47] Nichol: okay, well it's pretty simple too So, I mean the the first thing is that no matter how much time you have You have less time than you plan. It [00:19:00] just is that way. And so I learned that last year, you know, for 2023, um, I had two people in my life, one, you know, fighting the end. Um, and another one fighting for our beginning.

So, one person was my auntie. She's 83 years old, and she ultimately died from, um, heart failure. And, um, she was extraordinary. She was, um, You know, she racially integrated every school she went to. She was a math whiz. She was offered a full plate physics scholarships in 1962, like as a black woman, no way, um, they wanted her to be a computer, you know?

Um, so she was brilliant, amazing, refused to be defined. Um, you know, and, um, she wasn't done yet. We traveled all over the world. Like we went to probably over 25 countries just to get [00:20:00] there. Um, and she wasn't done yet. And even at the end, she would, um, You know, in the last couple of days, because I was with her, um, she wanted to stand up, you know, and like the nurses like did not want her to stand up, but I was like, she wants to stand up.

She gets to stand up. So I would go and I would like hold her, you know, and hold her up so she could stand. Um, and she, she wasn't done. And a lot of times when people think about someone passing, they're sort of like, um, oh, well they never did what they wanted to do. She did everything. Two to three times and she still wasn't done.

And then my other, the other person who was my guru, I was a 16 year old boy who was hit by a car and, um, he was in a coma for three months. He's a son of a dear friend and I just, you know, this was a really good friend of mine, so I've watched him fight for his life, [00:21:00] you know, and now he can text his friends.

You know, um, but like he has, like he has a long road, you know, he's, he's in, you know, he's, he's, he has a very, very long road ahead of him and he's fighting for it. He's fighting for that life. And so, you know, no matter how much time you have, you have less time than you plan. So I fully believe that when we have, when we live for a thousand years, you know, 999 Um, years on the 11th month, we're going to be like, Oh, is it, is it already over?

You know? Um, and so with that, it's just that the time is precious, but I don't believe in time scarcity. Um, I think that's, that's the wrong vibe. It's just a respecter of time. Um, and so that means you don't waste it. And wasting it is like, you know, all the stuff that, you know, [00:22:00] you and I do the work to get beyond.

It's like wasting it is loving someone and not telling them. That's wasting time, you know. Um, You know, wasting it is not knowing the difference between pride and dignity. Dignity is yours. Pride's a farce. Pride's a waste of time. Dignity? Hmm. That's special. And it's inherent. Um, so that kind of thing. Uh, so that's one.

Uh, the second part is that, um, Everybody's making it up as they go along, and you kind of have to get a certain age to realize this, but nobody knows what they're doing, and everyone holds the question. We're all making it up, and then also, you get also to a certain age where you start to see the very, very best, like the top, top, top people of their game.

Um, they're able to bring their expertise and intelligence to the unique moment, and they don't [00:23:00] plan it in advance, you know, like they're flowing into the moment. Everything there. And so with all of that, everything else, they're still making it up at the very top of their game. So everybody's making it up as they go along.

No one knows. No one's got it all figured out. Anyone who says it has an area in their life where they don't. And they're just like, they're either young, delusional or lying. If they say they have it all figured out. Um, the third one is that the best way to learn is by doing. You know, I, I, as you, thank you for, um, you know, congratulating me on, uh, us on closing the fund.

Um, and I've, you know, been investing for about a year and a half, like actively, and I learned more in a year of investing than in the six years of getting ready to. Um, so you want to do it, you want to learn it, just do it. And [00:24:00] that's how, that's how you learn it. Uh, it's the best way to learn and, um, and then it's about the journey, not the destination.

You know, another thing that happens when you get older is that you see, um, the people who are goal chasing are for the most part miserable, um, with failed marriages and relationships of all kinds. Um, and so goals are important. Um, so that you mostly so you know that you accomplished it and for the measurement, but what they're really about is it's about, does it change you to have the goal?

Did you have to meet new people? Did you have to learn new things? Did you have to, you know, the goals, it's really about the transformation. It's not about the goal. The goal has to be measurable, but it's not about the goal. It's about the transformation. And if you think it's about the goal, you're a hamster, and it catches up about the transformation.

Then you just experience more life. And, um, [00:25:00] and since it's about the destination, uh, what matters is how it feels. You know, do I feel alive? Do I feel connected? Um, you know, and you have the power to create how it feels. Um, and the way I create how it feels, if it doesn't feel the way I want it to feel, Um, then I ask, then I do my four questions, you know, What's unsaid, unowned, undone, unasked?

And then I put down a bridge. I do it, then I put down a bridge. Um, and if that doesn't change the way it feels, um, then I give my permission, myself permission to leave. So I don't have to finish books. I don't have to stay to the end of the play and I'm okay with relationships of all kinds ending. Um, if I have owned, you know, if I, if I have owned myself, taken responsibility for myself and I, you know, said, done, asked, um, owned.[00:26:00]

Um, and laid down bridges and it still doesn't feel right, then I'm out and I have no issues with that. That's my life philosophy.

[00:26:10] ck: Mic drop. Nicole, I mean, that 10 minutes, five minutes full of wisdom and then, and then how you open it up with your auntie, you know, passing, you know, really brings up the question of what is a life well lived.

[00:26:31] Nichol: Yeah.

[00:26:33] ck: And that, that, like that image that you shared, like 80 something at the end of her life, she wants to. Frickin stand up, you know, there's human dignity. There's that sovereignty. There's like the willpower Yeah, you know like the beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing that

[00:26:53] Nichol: Thank you for asking.

I miss her every day like Every [00:27:00] single day. I miss her.

[00:27:11] ck: Well, she's with you through this story and then she's with us Thank you so much for bringing her to this space. You

know, I mean, ultimately, it's not about the duration of our life, right? You have a thousand years, you know, if you live a thousand years watching Netflix, okay? You know, you kind of waste, you kind of waste it. In my opinion, you know, no judgment, but in my opinion, it's kind of wasted. But, uh, but it really going after it really honed that sovereignty and agency.

Hey, I wanted to bring, you know, equality into the education system. Let me go after it. You know, I want to build, you know, trans tech community and [00:28:00] investing, you know, technology of wellbeing and hardware, even though everyone says like, yeah, you can

find that stuff, right. You were doing it.

[00:28:08] Nichol: Yeah.

[00:28:09] ck: It was amazing.

I love it.

[00:28:13] Nichol: Thank you. Yeah, I mean it's, it's sort of like, it's um, you know, I guess, um, I think it's all about, um, I think in the end it's about how it felt, you know, like, and were we connected and, um, did we love, were we loved? Did we experience that? Um, and um, and recognizing. It's precious.

[00:28:54] ck: Oh, on that note, coming back to tech, right?[00:29:00]

The way I see trans tech right now as it is, is with building conditions, you know, whether it's, you know, heart rate variability or breath work or, you know, vibration device like Apollo. All these are beautiful and great. Um, it helps us bring more awareness to that micro moment of the decision, right? Hey, I want to get up.

How do I get up with dignity? Hey or Excuse me. I have an impulse to write a nasty email to you know, seven thousand Is this the right thing to do right because in that I mean That that's a very human thing because you know, there's revenge fantasy, right? Of those that cut us off or made us wrong or whatever.

So thank you for sharing that. It's a human thing to do, right? Are there, are there, I'm serious. Are there data [00:30:00] qualitative or quantitative that can help us bring more awareness to like, well, you know, is it, do you really want to write that email to 70, 000 of United employees? So one, I'll share something personal that I'm doing.

Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.

So I made a, uh, chat, GPT bot Mm. To check my blind spots. Like, here the things that interesting, I'm thinking about da da, tell me if there's anything I'm missing. And then, so that helps me. Right. Similar to your four questions to consider. Like, Hey, are there things that you hadn't considered?

Like Oh.

[00:30:35] Nichol: Oh. So how has it been for you? Like. Have you, by using this bot, have you, um, seen blind spots that you had missed?

[00:30:49] ck: Um, so most of the blind spots, I disagree, like, oh yeah, I can't remember what was the last thing, so I have to look it up, but, so it's like, [00:31:00] ah, that's okay, that's okay, that's okay, that's okay, so then go ahead and do that, right, so that's, I'm trying to get to full awareness, it's like a tiny step towards that.

And obviously, it takes cultivation and, you know, for me, it's, you know, ayahuasca and meditation and breath work, all these things that we all do to bring that awareness, but I'm hoping that, you know, technology can help me see even more that I hadn't considered. Anyways,

[00:31:33] Nichol: no, I love that. It's sort of like, can you like, was there anything that you that you agreed with and you hadn't seen yet?

I think it's a beautiful use case, by the way.

[00:31:45] ck: Oh, thank you. Yeah.

[00:31:48] Nichol: Like, was there anything when you did the, um, Blind spot bot where you were like, oh, yeah, I missed that, you know, and you're like, oh, [00:32:00] that's good I'm glad it raised that.

[00:32:03] ck: Um, I think there was a couple minor ones Uh

[00:32:07] Nichol: huh

[00:32:07] ck: are passable enough where they say something about like again I can't off the top of my head tell you exactly, you know this specific case But I do a lot of, let's say, LinkedIn post or, uh, TikTok videos because I'm a coach.

I make content, you know, as a way to share these tools with people. So often, one of the blind spots, quote unquote, the chat GPT will tell me is, you know, have you consider other viewpoints, you know, is this is very one dimensional. Well, yes, because, you know, if I started to be nuanced, And the signal gets lost So I can't so like yes, I get it, but it's okay.

This is exactly I want to be as not forceful potent as possible,

[00:32:58] Nichol: but it's great it makes [00:33:00] um It ensures that Your potency is a choice and not autopilot and that's that's really a beautiful thing. I have a friend who's working on a Um, he has a thing called public editor You And basically what it is, is it's like an overlay, you download it on to your, uh, browser and basically what it does is it, um, it points out on any webpage you're on, um, that's using the text, um, with cognitive biases.

So it'll say, Oh, you know, this is an anchor. This is a persuasive tool. This is appealing to authority. This is appealing to your insecurity. This is a, you know, it basically has like a layer on top so you're like, uh, you know,

[00:33:52] ck: uh, it could be quite overwhelming to be the user of it. You

[00:33:58] Nichol: know, it's interesting.

It's funny. It's [00:34:00] so I spent, um. You know, for a variety of different reasons, I've, I've, um, been exposed to a lot of sort of, uh, uh, you know, content or class content around sales funnels. So I recognize the sales process and, um, I'm the kind of person that when I want something, I want it like, like I, I'm very, um, thoughtful about what I want.

Um, and I'm very methodical. And so when I show up at your, um, your store, I want it like, like I already know. And, um, and so I always get frustrated when I, when someone starts to do a sales process on me, I'm like, like, don't. That's just like, take my money, like I've already done all this on my own. Um, so, you know, [00:35:00] so, so having like, yeah, um, anyway, sorry, that was a tangent,

[00:35:04] ck: but no, no, no.

It's actually on point because what we're talking about is how do we use technology to own our agency sovereignty, et cetera. Right. So you had shared this tool to help you see the persuasive techniques. And, you know, you're someone who is a buyer, is a buyer, is a buyer. So when you show up and you're ready to go, no, you know, any additional sales or marketing, it's going to most likely talk you out of the, it

[00:35:34] Nichol: becomes the anti sale, you're just not ready.

[00:35:40] ck: So are there other tools that you'll come across that's, you know, helping us be more sovereign?

[00:35:48] Nichol: Well, I mean, I

think the, you know, I, I mean, kind of like I've done, you know, I've Much of the same of what you've done. It's like when you do, when, when all of the different things that you do that [00:36:00] give you a moment to recognize, I say the, I guess the most important thing, let me think, um, what I have now, which I did not have a decade ago is I have the ability to see, um, a thought I have the ability to see a thought.

And to know, um, I have the ability to see a thought, I have the ability to feel an emotion, um, and I have the ability to know when I'm in a, uh, when I'm in a pattern. I might not always know it at the beginning, but I can figure it out pretty soon, um, either based on how I'm feeling or what I'm thinking.

Um, and then, you know, I have the ability to ask the questions that allow, and the curiosity and the interest to not be in the pattern. Um, so I ask the questions [00:37:00] that, you know, allow me to find out what's really going on and then I can address whatever that is. And that brings me more joy. And uh, right now there aren't, you know, there aren't a lot of tools.

It's sort of like, right now we're all kind of using a combination of tools. You know, where you probably see the biggest intersection is that, you know, if you're, if you haven't sleeped and you're dehydrated and a lot of the wellness and wellbeing things that it's really hard to have the mental space to notice patterns, you know, um, so a lot of the wellness tech, you know, lower level transformative tech, um, it gets that kind of like health in the body.

That gives you buffer. So there's that. Um, now we're at the beginning of things like what you did, your, um, you, you know, your blind spot bot or, uh, Tyler Vanderweel at UPenn. They did a thing where they [00:38:00] had, uh, patients, therapy patients record stream of consciousness for two days. And typically a therapist.

Wait,

[00:38:07] ck: how did they do that?

[00:38:09] Nichol: Just in the audio.

[00:38:11] ck: Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and then they

[00:38:13] Nichol: took the audio files and they, um, used, uh, TPT, a trained version to establish narrative profiles. Um, and you know, in the training to become a therapist, therapists estimate they spend two to three sessions establishing a narrative profile.

Um, before they can really get, really begin to start helping you because they have to like understand all the pieces, the, you know, family constellation and everything else. Um, and so, you know, they created these narrative profiles and shared them with the therapist and the patients and both of those sets of people felt like it was a pretty accurate.[00:39:00]

Um, so I think we're at the beginnings of being able to have conversational interfaces that allow us to see our, you know, our blind spots are, um, you know, our, like, like, this would be a really good one. I have a friend. We should like, I have a friend who always deflects compliments, always. And so I told him, we were talking about this, I saw him a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about this and, um, he was like, okay.

And then not hours later, we were in a conversation and someone complimented him and he downplayed it and I was across the table and I was like, there's the thing. You just did the thing. It would be so useful to him to have a bot.

[00:39:53] ck: Yeah. Like a reminder, right? Like ding, like Pavlov's talk about reverse, right?

Like, Hey ding, you just did a thing, [00:40:00] you know?

[00:40:00] Nichol: Yeah. Yeah. Like, Oh, you just did the thing. Someone gave you a compliment and you just rebuffed it. Like it's fully capable of doing that right now.

[00:40:11] ck: Yeah. I like it. Okay, so segue to a little bit more of what you're doing professionally right now you had mentioned public waste Acknowledged that some investors want founders to be broken.

So yeah, they're more driven actually talked to an investor Mm hmm I want my names but he said exactly that is what I do is help founders to be more sovereign and agent Yeah have more agency and healthy and so they can be on purpose. He was like, well, you know You We don't, you know, we want them to be broken, literally exactly what we're used to, so then they're more motivated.

Like, oh wow, that's a perspective I'd never consider. Anyways. [00:41:00]

[00:41:00] Nichol: That is, that is the, that is the secret. They don't say that, but they A lot of them and you know why they're kind of broken, you know, I mean, in a sense, like, like, here's the thing. It's kind of like what I did in my talk is that, um, and, you know, that the.

Broken founders, um, can't succeed in hyper speed, you know, it's kind of like, you know, it's going so fast, you know, like one of the things that James Carrier said is like, if you're an AI founder, you cannot be broken, you do not have the time for that, because it's like, it's like you're, it's so fast, they're like the system can't absorb your mommy, daddy issues.

Like it can't, um, you know, and it doesn't mean you have to be over your mommy yet daddy is just to start a company, but you have to be aware of them and you have to like ask your co founders to help [00:42:00] you because you're all like everyone's, you know, that like we're all like we all have. Things that we come through life with but we don't have to deal with them alone And we can learn skills and tools and we could do it together And then you have like this amazing team, but it's like the speed this hyper speed that we're going into faster than ever um, you know, uh, uh You know a uh, mommy daddy issue mistake, uh can cost you your company

[00:42:31] ck: in weeks

Um the thing teleps term anti fragile came to mind, right? It's very fragile to have some of someone who is As my mommy, daddy issues, you know, that inevitably saboteurs their relationships, their health, you know, maybe even their company because of a split second decision, like, I mean, indulging my, you know, revenge fantasy towards his competitor, whatever, whatever.

Right. [00:43:00] I mean, you

know, this is true. Yeah. It's like they make like, ah, I mean, anyways.

[00:43:08] Nichol: Or like not even that far out. It's like, you know, um, whatever someone's doing to someone else, they're doing that to themselves as well. And so, you know, if you're. You know, not being trustworthy, if you're not, you know, if you're not saying what's going on for you, um, because you don't trust that the people that you're working with can handle, you know, can handle like what's really happening, then you aren't being trustworthy, you know, you think that it's like the other way around.

So all of it's happening and, you know, a company is when a group of strange people go on a strange journey to a strange land. And when those people are aligned, they can do anything. And so like all of these little things that people do, you know, it doesn't even have to be as big as like, you [00:44:00] know, Stealing from a competitor, it could easily just be like the little stabs that you do to your head of product every day because he reminds you of your brother, you know, or the or the football player who, like, you know, didn't respect you.

So you stab your head of product every day.

[00:44:22] ck: So, so inside of that, so now that you are an investor, how do you look at this? Cause you know, obviously like any relationships, any human, none of us are perfect, right? We don't walk on water. So how do you think about, well, evaluating founders by founding teams and products, so on and so on.

[00:44:43] Nichol: Yeah. I mean, I think like a big red flag is if someone is defensive. You know, like, like founder certainty is, does not equal defensiveness, [00:45:00] you know, like, um, if someone's not, you know, really, like if you say something they disagree with and they're not like, Oh, tell me about it. You know, like I, I have a friend who is a, an amazing founder and she was, um, you know, she was, you know, pitching a group of investors and, um, You know, and it was in another country, and they were really surprised that she was a she, and, um, she did not get flustered by that.

They also had a lot of, like, points of view about her business, uh, and the sector she was in. And so she took out her pencil and she was like, Oh, so you, you don't think that this business will work. Tell me all the reasons why. And so she just like used every moment as a learning opportunity. Um, You know, and so, you know, when a, [00:46:00] when a founder is defensive, um, and isn't curious about like, Oh, you, you think that that's not good.

Why? Tell me, you know, versus we're certain it's this and this and this and this. It's like, well, then you don't need to talk to me because you're already certain, um, that's a good, that's a real sign. Because even if I'm wrong. Even if I'm absolutely wrong, if a person is defensive to me, uh, who they don't even know, then they are so much more defensive to their team.

And that means that they cannot leave that team.

[00:46:39] ck: Beautiful. So do you, since you're, you know, all about actualizing human potential, is there a role that you play to maybe gently or maybe not so gently nudge them to like, Hey, do this, do that and do this at meditation retreat or, or that's like outside of the, [00:47:00] I

[00:47:00] Nichol: mean, I, I, well, so we do precede and seed, so they're just getting started and, um, you know, and, and, and, you know, so, you know, anyone like the people that we've invested in, they're all people who are super curious and, um, you know, and they have very strong points of view, um, but they're always open for input.

Um, and so, um, you know, so there's, so there's, there's that. Um, and then just in general, um, you know, I've always been an advocate that, um, you know, the way to be a great leader is to become the very best version of yourself you can be. Um, and to continue to do that inner journey, I mean, work, if you allow it to be as a spiritual journey, because that's where the people are, you know, so, um, You know, I, I think being a yogi in a cave [00:48:00] is actually quite easy, especially with DoorDash.

[00:48:03] Speaker 6: You

[00:48:05] Nichol: know, especially with DoorDash, you know, um, you know, very few people have it like Milwrappa and, you know, turn green from nettle soup. Uh, so, um, you know, it's being with the people that is the, You know, is, is the challenge. So, if we just continue the, the rationales just to continue to do the work, um, and you know, nowadays it's interesting, like my work, I work a lot, but it, it feels like I'm playing, like I'm just having so much fun.

I'm having so much fun.

[00:48:45] ck: That's a good sign that you're on that path. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:50] Nichol: Yeah,

[00:48:50] ck: so Bradford told me this. Yeah, I didn't know this about you. I'm actually going to do dispensers work this coming weekend. It's coming week. [00:49:00]

[00:49:00] Nichol: So fun.

[00:49:01] ck: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm actually curious. Uh, you know, you're a technologist, a futurist.

You also did Dr. Joe's work. How do you see the potential of productizing, you know, this type of mystical experiences for human transformation? If it's possible at all, what do you

[00:49:20] Nichol: mean? Do you differentiate, like, what do you mean by productizing?

[00:49:24] ck: Yeah, because that's a that's an experience, right? He essentially took some ancient meditation techniques and modernize it, you know, translate it.

So then modern people can get it without reading all the ancient texts and stuff in that in itself is an experience, right? So are there tech or a product that can package that to make that even more accessible to more people?

[00:49:51] Nichol: Well, you know

[00:49:52] ck: or and actually so that's a very specific question But also i'm curious to know your take on since you you took it.

I haven't taken it [00:50:00] yet. What was your experience? Oh, I love it.

[00:50:02] Nichol: I love it. It's it's uh, it's it's really fantastic. It's um, I I love it, you know, um And it turns out that the like, you know, the kundalini stuff works really well for me And I've never tried it before and it's not pure kundalini, but it is sort of like the energy It's a it's an energetic style of meditation and it works really well for me.

So I enjoy it a great deal I mean, I you know, I do believe in different things work for different people and also Different combinations of things. I mean my overall point of view is Is um I think we're going to have to use old tools, new tools, technology. Um, I think there's a lot of things that we're going to have to use to get as many people, um, into a [00:51:00] state of inner and outer health as quickly as we can.

Like one of the things I'm really excited about, um, is I am so excited about the biome. I am so excited about the gut biome. I think that, um, you know, You know, I think that we're going to find, you know, like the bulk of your serotonin is made in your gut. Um, you can't be happy without serotonin. Like, you know, you can't.

Um, and so, you know, our ability eventually to use food and, um, targeted strains. to support psychological health. There's a whole bunch of people. And then there's things like there's a whole bunch of people who, um, you know, SSRIs are very, um, you know, they're, they're very, uh, in precise, um, sort of like they hit the whole brain, they hit the whole system, um, and they're not targeted, so we're going to be using technology to develop targeted solutions.

Um, and [00:52:00] then there's a bunch of people, like there's a bunch of people who, You know, I think have gut biome disturbances or hormonal disturbances, and I'm not talking about some sort of like, you know, woohoo biohacking kind of thing. I'm talking about like legitimate, you know, issues and, um, and, you know, we're going to be able to address.

Uh, many of their issues through food or through, um, you know, uh, engineered fermentations, um, that are, you know, that are, you know, deliberate or through, um, you know, isolated, um, uh, microbial strains. Um, and so, you know, we're coming into a place where, you know, there's a, there's a physical dimension, uh, around health and healing, around, um, nutrition and hydration and a bunch of things that are sort of like the foundation for your cognitive and spiritual [00:53:00] athleticism.

Then there's a whole other thing about like really training people to have the skills and capacities, uh, in order to connect deeply with themselves and with one another. You know, like there isn't any reason why, like, like the four questions that I ask. There isn't any reason why, when I get upset, you know, I can't have a little interface that says, What is unowned?

What haven't you owned? What haven't you asked? What haven't you said? What haven't you done? You know, like easy. It's basically a sort of like a quasi spiritual CPT, you know?

[00:53:39] ck: I mean, Brian and Katie made a whole career out of four questions. Absolutely. I don't see why not. And so it's like,

[00:53:45] Nichol: so, so this, these generative things are great for it.

When you don't have a friend or you can't do it on your own. At this point, like, I quick, I can, I've done so much work. I can super quickly run through my system. Yeah. [00:54:00] And like see where I'm at, you know, like now I do growth work for fun, you know, I mean, I'm still working things, but it's like now it's just, it's not because I have like, you know, giant buildings on fire.

It's just more like I enjoy transformation. More than anything I kind of love it. Um, and I love to see it in myself and I'd love to see it in other people too. And I love my freedom. I love your freedom. Um, and so then there's lots of ways to use technology for that. Um, you know, um, and then there will always be the ineffable.

Always and we should keep it that way. We should always have the mysteries and we should always have the ineffable. Um, I just believe that we can use science and technology to take the part of the mysteries that are not actually that mysterious, but we just don't know it cause we haven't been able to see it.

Like there's this guy. Um, have you heard of this guy, Michael Levin?

[00:54:57] ck: No.

[00:54:59] Nichol: [00:55:00] People think that he's probably going to get a Nobel prize. Like, cause basically what he's doing is, um, Like when I tell you this, you're going to, it's just gonna, so basically it's sort of like, and the spiritual people, when they hear this, they're like, yeah, yeah, we knew this already, but we didn't really have the science for it.

So essentially his theory is that, um, the intelligence of our bodies. It's not in the DNA. So there's a period of time where everyone thought, Oh, if you knew the DNA, then the DNA would tell you everything. And then after that, there was a chapter where people were like, well, it's not the DNA, it's the RNA.

The RNA is telling the DNA what to do. This guy is like, it's not the DNA, it's not the RNA, it's not any sort of, you know, chemical signal from cell to cell, it's actually an electrical signal that moves between cells, a frequency [00:56:00] between cells, um, that tells all the cells what to do, and that's how they communicate.

And that turns biology on its head, and the proof that they have of this, like some of the things they've done, two main things. One, if you take a pl if you take a worm, they're called planarians, and you slice them. If you have a tail and a head, and you slice them in three pieces, the tail will grow a head, the middle part will grow a head and a tail, and the head will grow a tail.

What they've done is they take electrical frequency, and they basically, like, move it through the cells. Or through the segment and they can get a segment they can get um, They can get like the middle part instead of growing head and a tail they can get it to grow two heads

[00:56:45] ck: Oh

[00:56:46] Nichol: Over and over and over again But what's crazy is after you get it to grow two heads when it has a baby It has a two headed baby and you don't have to repeat it.

So it's a permanent read right to the [00:57:00] cellular structure

[00:57:02] ck: Wow.

[00:57:04] Nichol: Of the worm.

[00:57:05] ck: That's wild.

[00:57:06] Nichol: It's frequency. Basically, like, like, sound. Unbelievable. And then, so, on, um, cancer, they've been doing early stuff on cancer, and basically, you know, the, his theory is that, you know, we didn't, you know, we didn't, mm, the way humans think, like, like, we didn't, um, I mean, maybe we come from someplace else, but, um, Our bodies were built up, so they started out by little organisms, which is why it's like the dominant species on the planet is bacteria and viruses, the micro, micro bacteria, like we think we're the dominant, everything, like everything inside of us, like everything works because of microbes.

And so, like, you know, in the soup, in our oceans, there were groups of [00:58:00] microbes. Um. And they started hanging out together because it was beneficial and advantageous. And they started communicating like, Oh, you can hang out with me, but they didn't have brains and they didn't have, all they had was mouths and vibrations.

And then those eventually turned into what we call cells, you know, like all the mitochondria, like people think that initially all this stuff was separate and then it came together. And so it's got this ability to communicate. Um, You know that doesn't require a brain. Um, and so what they've been doing with cancer cells is basically pulsing the sound of non cancer cell.

To a cancer cell and it stops behaving that way. This is amazing. Ted talk where he's with Chris and uh, Um chris anderson and chris anderson's like like you could feed you can watch his brain break because it changes our knowledge of biology [00:59:00] It's actually the the signaling between cells. So people think like people are thinking.

Oh, well Longevity might be in that because then you would basically just say this is what a young body sounds like You A young cell sounds like.

[00:59:14] ck: Mm.

[00:59:15] Nichol: You know, and, and you basically two-headed Paria. It . Amazing. Amazing. That's so interesting. I'm sorry, that was a, that was a tangent. .

[00:59:27] ck: No, no, this is exciting.

I

mean, I, the beautiful thing about podcast, I'm always looking for paradigm shifting ideas, right? So this is, thank you for sharing paradigm. Shifting ideas. Yeah.

[00:59:38] Nichol: No, no, that, that's it. But how it comes back to, you know. Human consciousness and what's possible for us and you know, what are the what are the tools that give us a moment to?

You know know where we're coming from our lower higher selves You know, I think we're just I think we're just at the very beginning [01:00:00] And it's exciting

[01:00:06] ck: Well, there is a quote, um, nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come. So, you know, you're the connoisseur of ideas and technologies, and this could be the last question.

Like what ideas do you believe are just ripening and ready to profoundly impact how we relate to ourselves, how we relate to others, how we relate to, you know, humanity?

[01:00:34] Nichol: Um, I am On fire about collective human superintelligence, that's the

[01:00:43] ck: mouthful. First, can you define what that is? Yeah, so, um,

[01:00:48] Nichol: basically, it's like, we really haven't developed wide scale coordination mechanisms for ourselves that allow us to like, um, you really [01:01:00] collaborate and coordinate together at scale.

Um, and so, you know, when we like, you know, imagine, remember the moments when you've been in group flow or when you actually have a group mind and group minds are different than group things like a group mind is infinitely intelligent. Like I remember the early augmented, I mean alternate reality games where people would think they had six months of content.

Um, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like giant, you know, puzzle mystery games that were online and off. Um, this was like 15 years ago. Wait,

[01:01:37] ck: back up, I'm not a gamer, so say more about that. There used to be,

[01:01:41] Nichol: there used to be these games called alternate reality games.

[01:01:46] ck: Uh huh.

[01:01:46] Nichol: And they were online and off, so there might be a puzzle clue on a website, and another one in a phone booth in downtown Seattle.

[01:01:54] ck: Um,

[01:01:56] Nichol: and they were, uh, you know, a lot of women [01:02:00] played them. It was like 50, 50. Um, and they sort of like started to rise up with the internet. And, um, what started to happen is that people started to play them collectively. So if you had a clue that was written in Sanskrit, then someone who was near the university with the foremost expert in Sanskrit.

would go and get that person and get them to play the game. And so what happened is that, um, The hive, and it doesn't, the hive doesn't really sort of capture it because that's more, you know, like a single, you know, it doesn't sort of like express the individuality, um, but the, you know, the group, um, collectively would solve puzzles, you know, in days, [01:03:00] um, because everyone would like bring their intelligence to bear.

And so we haven't. Found a way to do that with technology supports a shared goal towards a shared outcome. Um, and, you know, right now, like we spent, you know, a lot, you know, I think is amazing, but I also think we're way too charmed by it, you know, in the sense that, you know, we neglect ourselves, um, and we haven't, you know, we haven't spent a lot of time thinking about how do we enhance our intelligence, um, and our collective intelligence, you know, it's like one of the things that's happening with, you know, You know, with all these LLMs that people are not really paying attention to is it's sort of like, you know, basically you have millions of little hairless monkeys, you know, banging on them and seeing what we can do like that is like, you know, but we're all sort of like one to it.

You know, so we're all in [01:04:00] like one to one relationships, even though it's like swirling the pot on the back end and learning from all of us. What we haven't done is we haven't, you know, we haven't developed, um, the technology, and we're going to have to use AI to do it, that allows us to be collective intelligence with one another, to network ourselves together.

And so people do it in small, small, you know, jazz bands do it. They're networked in that moment, connected. They have a group mind. It's a group feeling. Um, but we haven't done it. And so I think, you know, uh, what we should do is we should learn how to develop that collective network between us. Um, and, you know, and I think it's going to require getting really human.

I think you're going to have to like. [01:05:00] Like, you're gonna have to, to collaborate means you, you've, um, addressed a certain amount of your ego. Like, if you think that you're the only one, then you can't collaborate. So, there's, there's some personal work that's required, um, and then there's a technology underpinning that's required, um, You know, and, you know, and it's like that game Foldit.

So Foldit is a, uh, collective protein folding game where everybody can pay, watch everybody else fold the protein. And they've, you know, um, they found ways to fold proteins, um, that scientists working on the same problem for decades have not, for a decade hadn't been able to solve. And they solved it in a few weeks of doing it collectively.

People all over the world. Foldit. Watching one another play the game and it's collective. It was a collective goal. Um, so how do we, you know, [01:06:00] how do we institutionalize and operationalize that and who do we have to be in order to join into a collective super intelligence for the times that we need it?

Like, when we have a problem to solve, how do we do that? Uh, there's some people who are doing some cool stuff. Um, it's just getting started. Um, as you can imagine, there's a lot of democracy tech people who are. involved in that, but it's like, I think that's the, I think that's the question of the day.

[01:06:30] ck: Well, I mean, I do have some follow up question.

You are a game, I don't even know how to, the term for it, the game expert, architect, designer?

[01:06:41] Nichol: No, no, I've just, I'm, I'm, you know, I've been around a lot of games because I've worked in every department in a game company.

[01:06:48] ck: So in one of, in many of your talks, you had talked about games are the ultimate transformation medium.

Right. So as such, you know, the way I will articulate is [01:07:00] transformational container, right? In any kind of container, there is, you know, objective, there are the parameters to the rules of the universe. And then here's how you ascend, increase your status, your scores and so forth and go right. So to your point.

To if you believe that then and you want to gain or gains of collective intelligence then requires incentive structure and status I

[01:07:30] Nichol: mean, maybe maybe not. I mean it just sort of like we we we already synchronize our biology

[01:07:39] ck: Mm hmm.

[01:07:40] Nichol: Like there's a there's a whole There's a whole bunch of things that happen when people are aligned.

It's called biosynchrony You It's not, and it's, it's not a, you know, it's, it's a real thing. It's like birth rate, you know, it's like, it's, it's a real thing. Um, and so we already have the ability to go into sync. We [01:08:00] already sync, but we do it sort of haphazardly. Um, and we haven't applied technology to allow us to sync at scale.

Um, and I think when we sync at scale, um, you know, especially around the The principles of, um, of group mind versus group think, I think there isn't a problem that we can't solve. Um, I think that, you know, you know, eight, eight billion crafty humans, um, you know, is a force to be reckoned with. Um, and I think we owe it to ourselves.

Um, to develop ourselves for that and I, I'm gonna have to go.

[01:08:39] ck: Of course. Thank you so much. Really appreciate you. Appreciate it. So

[01:08:44] Nichol: nice to talk to you. Thank you so much for your patience too. Of

[01:08:47] ck: course. Enjoy the rest of your day, Nicole. Thank you so much.