183 Ninawa Pai Da Mata: Unlocking Joy: Secret to Spirituality & Fulfillment

[00:00:00] ck: Welcome to Noble Warrior. My name is C Kaylin. This is where I interview entrepreneurs, practitioners about how they master their mind, their body, their spirit, to pursue a life of greater purpose, joy, and success.

Our guest today is. A chief of the Novo Futuro village, Huni Kuin people in Acre, Brazil, is known as the guardian of the Huni Kuin culture, he's a spiritual leader, he's a musician, he has many, many different titles, one of which is known as the father of the rainforest, the king of joy. Please welcome Ninahua Paitamata.

[00:00:46] Mari (translator): The

[00:00:46] Ninawa: father

[00:00:47] Mari (translator): of the forest, spiritual leadership.

[00:00:54] Ninawa: Osho.

[00:00:55] ck: Osho. Great. Amazing. So, you know what? You are [00:01:00] known as someone who came up with Sol Araguia. I'm curious to know if that was true and if it was, how did you come up with that phrase? They say

[00:01:11] Mari (translator): that you are the one who came up with the phrase of only joy.

Is

it

[00:01:17] Mari (translator): really true? And if it is, how did it come about? Why only joy? Where did you, how did you come up with this phrase? Aux

[00:01:26] Ninawa: Aux, I am Niinauá, Aida Mata, I am Niikuin. And for me it is a joy to be here sharing with everyone, that we are going to be sharing this conversation that we are sharing here now.

So, the question, right, that Chay asked about the word Sua Alegria, right, which today are words that are said, right, in the great ceremonies, right, with the great work of the people [00:02:00] who work with the sacred medicines. So this was a, we created this word in our village, right, it was us who started it, me, Nova Era, right, we started this word of Sua Alegria, Segura Firme, Sua Na Frente, Sua Por Cima.

Então, nós escreveu

This conversation of your joy.

[00:02:33] Mari (translator): He says, um He says, Hello, everyone. It's an honor, pleasure to be here with whoever is, uh, tuning in to our conversation. And, um, yeah, I guess this expression, So Alegría, is become quite widespread and well known in ceremonial circles. And that, yes, it was, um, it was them in their, in their community.[00:03:00]

Um, himself and Nova Era and, and his community members in this village that have, uh, brought forward this expression in, in this context, um, and it's meaning only joy.

[00:03:13] Ninawa: And this word, this word, just joy for us is a very, very good energy for us that we have, right?

[00:03:25] Mari (translator): For us, uh, uh, meaning, uh, very good energy that we carry,

[00:03:31] Ninawa: uh.

[00:03:46] Mari (translator): The energy of joy is a healing energy as well. It's an energy of, of peace. Uh, when we ha when we are joyful. This is, uh, something, uh, very good, very positive for us, for our [00:04:00] lives. Beautiful

[00:04:01] Ninawa: Soria,

[00:04:03] Mari (translator): Soria only joy,

[00:04:04] ck: only joy. So the question I have for Nina, the follow up question is. Has he always been the king of joy, always full of it, you know, such that it's overflowing coming out of him, or for him, is it cultivated over time as he was embracing this, so alegria philosophy.

[00:04:25] Mari (translator): Ele tá perguntando se você sempre foi assim, sim ou não. I was full of joy, always very happy, only joy. You were born that way or was it something that you see that joy, this constant joy is something that you cultivate throughout life and works to keep it.

[00:04:44] Ninawa: So for me, that energy of joy, I think I already brought it from my birth.

When I understood myself, as a child, I was always a little happy. Everybody liked my jokes.[00:05:00]

[00:05:07] Mari (translator): He said that the joy, the joy is really, um, a part of his nature, um, that he was born like this. Um, since he was a very small child, um, he's always been very joyful. Everyone, uh, always, uh, enjoyed his, uh, his. It's his games, his, like, his liveliness, his, uh, just his way of being like this. Um, so he thinks it is just part of his nature and it's something that he's just born with.

[00:05:44] ck: So for those of us who weren't born with so much joy, knowing what he knows today, what will he say to us? Of those who want to cultivate it, want to expand it, want to amplify it, [00:06:00] what will he say?

[00:06:02] Mari (translator): E pra aqueles Being a person who has never had the opportunity to be born with so much joy, with so much, uh, from always.

People who perhaps are in need of or looking to cultivate more joy in their lives. If you have any words, any tips, any guidance for people who are having difficulty or are looking for, you know.[00:07:00]

I think, uh, for those of us who have not, uh. Um, who have trouble with this is really to seek out the joy in every moment. Um, people who have maybe have been through hard times or traumas in life, um, it's very important to, uh, to cultivate this joy. Um, this is this, uh, that we, that we live joyfully.

[00:07:29] Ninawa: Yeah.

[00:07:36] Mari (translator): So to be joyful, you need to, uh, be more loving, to love more, to embrace each other more. And this is what brings this joyfulness.

[00:07:49] ck: Beautiful. So one of the things that I mean, I'm, I'm asking a lot of questions from my friends, people who have met Ninahwa. [00:08:00] Hey, what kind of questions do you have for Ninahwa?

Here's one that we're very curious about, you know, uh, for him, he comes out of the jungle, travel four or five days. To be at a place like Southern California as an example, uh, what are some of the things that strike him as strange, you know, in his travels all, all over the world?

[00:08:36] Mari (translator): It's for you, right, that you live so deep in the forest, you have to travel four or five days, go down to the river to be able to get out of your village and get to a place as far away as, for example, here in Southern California, or in other places that you've been around the world. What are the things that [00:09:00] you find strange, like, how they are so different from where you come from, I don't know, what do you think, I think it's worth commenting on the things, the differences, right, where you come from.

That's a good question, right. What do you think is strange, right, or very different

[00:09:17] Ninawa: from where you come from? So, like, for us, like, for

[00:09:20] Mari (translator): me, right, we are one of the people who live very isolated from the city, right, we

[00:09:26] Ninawa: have this difficulty of traveling by boat, right, the only access to my village is by boat to get to the city,

It's a three, four day trip. And for us, for me, it's a point of view that I see, from the village world to the outside world, there are some differences, right? Which are, I don't know how to explain it, but they [00:10:00] are very different, right? It's like, nature, nature is everywhere, but many parts of nature change.

And for me, one of the things that impacts a lot of my village, of the forest with the city, is freedom, you know? The freedom to walk, the freedom to sing, to speak, to hear. Because inside the city everything has a norm. We can't speak so loud, you know? We have the limit of being transiting. So this for us is already a small difference that we live like this.

So, yeah, for us, uh,

[00:10:51] Mari (translator): Coming from so far away that my community is really, uh, the only way to get there is by boat and it takes [00:11:00] days up and down the river. Um, there are many things that strike me as, uh, different, very different from where we come from. And, uh, One of the things that, uh, he mentions is the nature itself and how nature is different.

Um, it says nature is everywhere, but it changes quite a lot, um, depending on where we are. And, uh, the other thing that he mentions is, uh, freedom, uh, that, uh, In, in the jungle, they are free, uh, very free in, in many ways, and that in the cities where he, um, where he travels to, um, there are many rules, like that, um, certain places you, you can't, uh, speak very loud, or you, maybe you can't even speak at all, and the places that you're not allowed to, uh, you're not always free to [00:12:00] walk or to go wherever you want, there's There's a lot of rules and regulations that, uh, and where he's coming from, or it's, it's not in that same way in terms of like personal freedoms.

[00:12:15] ck: Thank you for that. I'm always curious. Yeah. I'm always curious to know just, you know, from a totally different place, what was it like for someone like him? Um, can you ask him quickly what, how long has it been, you know, facilitating ayahuasca or being in shamanism, being on this path? He's asking

[00:12:36] Mari (translator): how long you've been on this path of shamanism and with medicines.

He asked about, like, conducting works, right? How long? So, these works with the medicines, right? I've been practicing since I was a child, right? In

[00:12:52] Ninawa: the village. And after my 20, 25 years, right? I started practicing the work in the village, [00:13:00] right? I started practicing the work in the village, right?

I used to lead the work with my family, right? I practiced some diets. And to bring this message of the forest through medicine, right? I have about 15 years, right? That I started, right? Lead this work there to the world, right? So, from the village

to the outside world.

[00:13:35] Mari (translator): So, um, working with ayahuasca, uh, or, or, uh, just, uh, drinking the medicine is since he was a child, um, he's been, he's been working with this medicine, um, and around, uh, 25 years old is when he started to, uh, do diets and to, uh, [00:14:00] to facilitate the works in his own communities. And, uh, it's been about 15 years, more or less, that he's been traveling, um, with the medicines and, uh, sharing it outside of, uh, his own community.

[00:14:18] ck: Beautiful. So, the follow up question I have, there is, uh, What's his relationship with spirit and how does it view ayahuasca? Let me give you some ideas here. Does the spirit speak to him like a conversation or is it more of an intuitive knowing or is it the spirit speaks to him through the plant? I'm just curious to know what's his relationship, his cosmology, how he thinks about it.

[00:14:49] Mari (translator): He is asking about how is your relationship with the spirit or the spiritual world in [00:15:00] the sense of, for example, you talk directly with the spirits or is it a more intuitive thing that you feel? You talk through the plants. How do you relate to the spiritual world, to the spirit? For me, it's a connection

[00:15:25] Ninawa: to talk through the plants, right?

With the spirits. And also, for me, it's a connection with the spirits. It's connected to understand, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

The elements of nature, everything we are, we are lives. I think it's a way of us being connected, right, within spirituality, also this way of understanding this and respecting this normality [00:16:00] that we are equal lives. So,

[00:16:02] Mari (translator): um, his connection and his relation to spirits, uh, um, he communicates or relates to spirit through the plants.

And he thinks, uh, uh, it's important part of this connection is to understand, uh, uh, how the elements of nature are, are alive and have, uh, each, each have a spirit like that as well. And this part of this reality and how, you know, To connect and relate to that.

[00:16:38] ck: Great. So the spirit speaks to him or is it shown images or is it intuitive knowing, uh, emotion?

Like how does he, how does spirit communicate to him?

[00:16:53] Mari (translator): Spirit to.[00:17:00]

How is the language that you speak with the spirits? I mean, if it's through words, if it's through images, or feelings, or sensations, how is this communication with the spiritual

[00:17:18] Ninawa: world? So, we have the way of communicating with the spirits, right? And for us, in the forest, we have the sounds of the trees, of the footsteps, which for us are the voices of the spirits, right?

Mm hmm. So, in the forest, we have a bird that, when we go to the forest to sing, it has two types of singing, right? The singing that is to warn that everything will be all right with its hunt, and the other singing to warn that it won't go very well. So, for us, it's a way of[00:18:00]

[00:18:03] Mari (translator): So, um, for them, uh, the spirit, uh, communicates through plants, communicates through nature. Then, for example, uh, in our village or in the community, when we are going out to hunt, for example, and we can, uh, We know, we know the, there's a certain bird that sings a certain song and depending on what song he sings, we'll know if the hunt is going to be successful or not, um, according to the way the song is sung or what song the bird is singing.

So they learn to identify and to recognize, um, this kind of communication of spirit through music. The animals and the plants.

[00:18:57] ck: Really interesting. Okay. [00:19:00] Thank you for that. Um, So, one of the things that I noticed in drinking Ayahuasca, the medicine, is it amplifies what's going on within the mind. So, one of the reasons why I really love this medicine is it's the revealer of truth, right?

I can see illusions made up by the mind as well as You know, see through all of the, um, all of the illusion for truth. So I'm curious, as someone who has been drinking and serving for decades, how, how do you advise someone when they're experiencing the medicine or even without the medicine, what is illusion and what's truth?

So he's

[00:19:49] Mari (translator): saying that in his experience with medicine, ayahuasca, he sees how the, the, The medicine [00:20:00] amplifies what is going on inside you. Uh huh. Both, um, uh, the thoughts, um, that can be an illusion, as well as what can be true. And I think his question is how do you help as much as possible, both inside and outside the force of medicine, to know how to discern what is an illusion, or a fear, or something that is coming in this work, but which is not necessarily a truth.

What is between the illusion and the truth, right, inside the spiritual work. Do you understand? Because

sometimes we, uh, people in the force,

[00:20:49] Mari (translator): uh, see something that is sometimes their fear. Or it's, or it's a, you know, then she, but then she keeps thinking that it's a truth that medicine [00:21:00] is showing. But in fact it's something that's inside her, a thought, a fear, you know?

A more illusory thing, not necessarily true.

So he's talking about that, right? That people sometimes get it wrong with what they're feeling or seeing in the force of medicine. And if you have any words of advice for people to know, to discern, I mean, what they're seeing, is it really true, is it a truth that the force is showing, or if it's something that comes from a fear of it, or an illusion.

So,

[00:21:35] Ninawa: for, like, for this, you know.

For this strengthening of healing, of fear, of knowing if it is true, the certainty of what medicine shows, right? But the important part of the work with medicine is to focus on the positive intention of what you want to see, right? Because [00:22:00] we can, right, even, even think, right? The thought can bring fear to us, right?

During us, and during the work, we can, right?

I don't know how to say the word illusion in Portuguese, but for us, I think fear is an illusion. Sometimes you're in the woods, you know if you're going to scream, if you're seeing positive things or not. So I think it's fear, you have to look for it. The important thing is to look for the positive, right?

What is good, what is important for life.

Because in the pit we see a lot of things, right? Good things, [00:23:00] bad things, and it depends on what you're thinking at that moment. So for that you have to think only good things, right? Think what we want well, and in the end the medicine leads you to the good. Because many times, I think that the cure for material illusion for us is ignorance, right?

It's alcoholism, it's drugs. I think that material illusion for us is that, right?

[00:23:33] Mari (translator): Um, so, uh, I think he says in, in the work and the spiritual work are in the force of the medicine, see many things. And, um, It can be sometimes, uh, see things that are coming from your fears or your, uh, or [00:24:00] your doubts. And, uh, it says fear is an illusion. It says, I actually don't understand very well, um, what you all mean by illusion, but I think that this is what, uh, This is what it means, um, because it's not, it's not aligned with the, with the, the truth.

And, uh, it's important to avoid, uh, Getting taken by these fears to keep your thoughts and your intentions very focused on Good things on on on what are the good things that you want? That you ask from the medicine that you want the medicine to bring you that you want to see in this work because Uh, if you, if you, you see, may see, um, good things and bad things, and this is all, it's all inside you, in your mind, in your head, and [00:25:00] so this is why it's important to, um, really stay focused and stay concentrated on positive thoughts, on good thoughts.

Um, it says there's illusions, um, come, uh, with, uh, alcoholism or addiction, this kind of, uh, Low energies and what brings like maybe fears and and negative Thoughts or experience in the force.

[00:25:35] ck: I see. So let me know if I Understand him correctly. So for him anything that's negative thoughts and you get emotions lower energy That's the creations of the mind, therefore, don't pay attention to those.

Only pay attention to positive energy, positive intentions, positive thoughts, positive emotions. Is that what he's saying? That's [00:26:00] the main difference for him? To tell the difference? So,

[00:26:03] Mari (translator): if you see, for example, that it is negative energy, difficult, or fear, in the force, that these things are things in the person's head, right?

And that, uh, and then if you see, So, not to pay attention to these things and focus and concentrate only on good things, good intentions and good thoughts. Is that what you're saying?

[00:26:34] Ninawa: That's

[00:26:35] ck: it. That's it. That's

[00:26:37] Mari (translator): it. Amazing.

[00:26:39] ck: So glad. I appreciate it. Thank you, Mari. I know that was a complicated question.

[00:26:45] Mari (translator): This is a complicated question.

[00:26:47] ck: Yeah. So, some practical question follow up would be. You know, because you heal people directly or indirectly through the work of the medicine of [00:27:00] 50, 100 people every night, right? So how does he keep his energy clean so that he's not impacted by You know people's purging or negative thoughts or fears like night after night after night This is a practical question.

I'm curious

[00:27:20] Mari (translator): It's a practical question, right? You, as a Pajé, you heal people, like, directly or indirectly, through your spiritual work, sometimes 50, 100 people at work. How do you protect yourself, so you don't get affected by these energies, when you're holding other people? or conducting a work, right, with people who are going

through pee

[00:27:50] Mari (translator): or vomiting, right, yes, going through a strong process, how do you do to protect yourself and stay strong within this place?

So, this, [00:28:00] the part of safety, right, of work, right, for

[00:28:03] Ninawa: us to be able to do the work, right, for us to be able to do the work, right, for us to be able to do the work, right,

[00:28:26] Mari (translator): So, for us, um, this part of, uh, security, uh, in the work, uh, it requires, to have this security, it requires, um, for, and with the work that we're doing and the space that we're holding, it requires, um, diets. It's very important to do the proper diet. So that we can, uh, endure whatever it is that, uh, we are gonna have to face in the work that we're doing.[00:29:00]

So for us, a diet is like as, uh, oath that we make and that, uh, uh, gives us this protection for life so that in all the work that we do, we are will be always protected.

[00:29:41] Ninawa: In front of work, we have to be prepared, right? Trust the medicine, the protection spirits, because it's not easy. We live, we see a lot of things, we also feel, but we have to learn to defend, right? Blow a lot there, which is to be able to take away the negative things, the bad spirits, right? Which are the diseases of space, and do [00:30:00] well, because if we don't do that, it's not going to work.

[00:30:10] Mari (translator): And, uh, in the work, in the actual healing work that we do, um, in, in ceremony, um, it's very important to be very firm within the force of the medicine, to be, um, very solid and stable and to trust the medicine and trust the work that's being done. Um, and this is all very important because we do, uh, we may see and feel many things.

Um, but, uh, uh, and it's very important to, to know like that, how to protect ourselves. Otherwise we, and we can fall sick.

[00:30:51] ck: So tactical question, right? How does he do that? Is it just like, hey, medicine, I feel something is off. [00:31:00] Protect me like, like that? Or is it more just like a feeling of it or He has some thing he does.

He also mentioned

[00:31:09] Mari (translator): the the blows, but I'll ask him.

[00:31:25] Ninawa: I ask for medicine, I ask for the spirit, the yoshibu of medicine, to bring the cure, to bring the strength to get up and get rid of what is wrong there, because we are in a job to cure, right? There are many things that are negative, heavy, we have to ask, just like we are talking about here, right? Ask for the spirit to heal the medicine, use the medicine as a healing spirit.

[00:31:57] Mari (translator): So you speak to the medicine, [00:32:00] uh, in the same way that we're speaking here, uh, to, if there's some energy that's off or something, just uh, uh, use it, speak to it through the plants, and, and to say, to clear, to clean. If, if there's whatever needs to be healed, there is this healing spirit that's there. That's what it's there for.

So.

[00:32:23] ck: I see. So the spirit or, uh, the plants are the allies where he can call upon to support him to, for protection for individuals or for the group? Is that what I'm hearing? Is that correct?

[00:32:49] Ninawa: Sim, também. As plantas, espírito das plantas, né? The

[00:32:54] Mari (translator): plants and the spirit of the plants.

[00:32:57] ck: Got it. And then Deta is a way [00:33:00] to, uh, create an alliance to, or to acquire certain ability slash power to be able to call upon these allies. Is that the idea?

[00:33:27] Mari (translator): Yes, that's the idea. The idea is

[00:33:29] Ninawa: a way of aligning with the plant, right? And also to learn, right? The practice of what we have to do, of how to heal, right? And in our tradition, there are several forms of healing. If you want to heal only from the breath, if you want to heal by praying, if it's by giving a massage.

So there is a way that you want to connect with this healing energy that these medicines have.

[00:33:55] Mari (translator): Yes, the diets are a way to create this alliance with the plants and [00:34:00] also to learn how to heal. And there are different ways to, that we work with healing through the breath or through the prayers or with the hands. So there's different ways of, uh, of giving this healing energy.

[00:34:20] ck: I see. So this is, this is an outsider perspective is a pardon me if it's a stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway, because I don't know.

Uh, uh, so did the Huni Kuin tradition of learning and then communicate with spirit? Is it very, very different? And let's say the Yawanawa, the Ashinikas, or, you know, Shipibo's, or are they, you know, Similar but slightly different.[00:35:00]

[00:35:14] Mari (translator): I think it's

[00:35:15] Ninawa: more or less similar, right? Because we all communicate through medicine, right? And we all go on diets, right? With the same plants, right? And for us, the people, the medicines of the forest are the same, but people know different meanings of healing, right? But they are the same plants.

[00:35:44] Mari (translator): And he, he says he thinks it's more or less the same because we, um, these peoples of the forest, uh, work and communicate with spirit through plants and many of the same plants. [00:36:00] And, uh, yeah, so it may be different, different peoples, different cultures, but, uh, working with the same kind of plants and with the same kind of spirit world.

[00:36:13] ck: Got it. Does this still do dietas or is it more of like I did it once, I'm good for life. So let me just continue to study another plant or is it a regular maintenance, you know, like a continuous credit kind of a thing. You know what I mean? Do

[00:36:30] Mari (translator): you still go on a diet? Or is it something like, ah, you did it once and now you're already protected for life?

Or is it something that you have to be there, always kind of updating yourself? Or if you've already done the diet, you don't need to do it anymore and you can do it with others, study with other plants? Or is it something more like that, continuous, that you always renew? How does it work? Yes.[00:37:00]

So we, we have, um, one main diet that we do, um, with, uh, but then, um. Now and then, we will, like when we are opening a diet, for example, for a young man or a young woman, and, uh, we also need to be in that same energy, in that same space, so then we, this way, we are always renewing our, our diets, uh, and our, our work with the plants like that.

[00:37:46] Ninawa: This also depends on the type of diet you are doing, if it is medicine.[00:38:00]

[00:38:09] Mari (translator): So it also depends very much on the diet because there are many different kinds of diets, um, with different kinds of medicines. And so it depends on what, uh, um. Type of diet and what type of medicine because the Nishbupima, for example, which is known as like the baptism or like the traditional version of what would be a sort of baptism.

This is one diet that you only need to do once and you can keep maintaining it. But the process as it is when you do the Nishbupima, you only need to do it one time.

[00:38:47] ck: I see. Well, I have a change of topic real quick. He is someone who helps people heal and Alleviate people from their [00:39:00] suffering from their attachment and one of the biggest source of suffering is death Fear of it.

Someone else is dying, you know, it's a driver for addiction and pain So someone so he is uniquely qualified to answer this question having perhaps You Usher people into a place of dying or being the spirit world. What happens in the moment of death, uh, death? Is there any clarity or any articulation that you can give to, you know, what happens after people's physical body dies?

He is

[00:39:40] Mari (translator): saying that you are a person who works with healing and helping to alleviate people's suffering. And one of the great causes of suffering of people nowadays is death, or fear of dying, or the death of a [00:40:00] loved one. So, his question is about death, like, if you have any words or any guidance regarding this moment of death, or how it is, what happens when we die, or, like, any, yeah, any words about it.

I don't even have words about it. I don't

[00:40:25] Ninawa: know what to say. I don't know, what

[00:40:32] Mari (translator): do you think? Is death a passage? What do you think of death? I don't know, does he want to say something? Do you want me to ask him to explain it

[00:40:48] ck: correctly? Yeah,

[00:40:51] Mari (translator): where

[00:40:54] ck: do they go? Do they have any stages? You know, where do [00:41:00] ancestors reside?

Like these type of questions

[00:41:02] Mari (translator): that people ask. How do you believe, or how do Huni Kuin understand this death? The spiritual path in this sense, after a person dies.

[00:41:15] ck: And before I answer it, one thing I would say too, the reason why I'm asking is because there's a lot of fears, we were speaking of fears earlier, there's a lot of fears around death.

So if you can provide some clarity, some, you know, narratives about death, I think that's going to help alleviate people's fear around death. He's

[00:41:36] Mari (translator): saying that this question is because people are very afraid of death, and sometimes when there is a greater understanding, a greater clarity about the process, the process of death, it can help alleviate fears.

Well,

[00:41:50] Ninawa: from my point of view, death is the future, right, for everyone. No one can be afraid of dying, I don't think. [00:42:00] Because we, in a little while, everything we are seeing here, no one will see anymore, right? Everything we are doing, no one will do anymore, and there are other people who will see. So death is one of the things that we have to go through anyway, right?

When the time comes. Sometimes we are afraid of dying, but we don't have where to jump, it seems, right? So we have to wait for the moment of each one and leave. In our unique tradition, right? So when we die, we become spirit, right?

It depends on what we do a lot there, we can turn it into something in our tradition. If we take a lot of medicine, we can turn it into a spirit in our tradition. Turn it into a jeboa, turn it into a sepulchre, turn it into medicine. I'm working on it to turn it into a little snake. So, he says, um,[00:43:00]

[00:43:02] Mari (translator): Death is something that is in all of our futures, that, uh, we, that we all will have to face one day, and this is why we should not fear it. It's, uh, it's just certainty on our path. And, uh, uh, we understand, for us, the Huni Kuin, that when we, when we die, we become spirits. And Depending on how you lived your life, uh, a different type of spirits and, uh, so if you're working a lot with the medicine, you may become, uh, uh, a spirit plant or, uh, a serpent like the Jibaya, um, spirit and, uh, So different, different types of spirits, uh, that you [00:44:00] can, uh, become depending, according to how, how they will be transformed into according to how you lived your life.

And he says that he is working to become a Jibwaya. He's looking to become a serpent, a serpent spirit.

[00:44:18] ck: That's beautiful. So for him, for their cosmology belief system, being, becoming a Jiboya, you know, the snake is one of the highest honor. Is that how he thinks about it?

[00:44:33] Mari (translator): He's asking if it's for you, if becoming a spirit of a Jiboya is a great honor.

It's an honor if you make the transition and become a

[00:44:47] Ninawa: spiritual leader. For sure. For

[00:44:49] Mari (translator): sure. Definitely. Beautiful. So,

[00:44:52] ck: uh, you know, while you've been traveling around the world for many, many years, [00:45:00] what's your perspective of seeing the rising popularity of, number one, your culture, number two, your music, number three, the medicine itself.

How do you feel about it? And

[00:45:16] Mari (translator): you have traveled a lot around the world, uh, during all these years, and how have you seen this movement of, uh, expansion, of, like, growth, of popularity, like, right, of your culture, of your music, of the medicines, right, that have, like, grown, like, what do you think of that? For me,

[00:45:42] Ninawa: it's been very interesting, right, to bring this message from not only me, but also from the Unikwim people to the world, right?

And with, through this, this cycle, right, of wisdom, of medicine, right, that has brought a lot of information to the world, and this [00:46:00] has also grown a lot, right, the family, right, that are on this path, that,

that need healing, that need to understand the spiritual segment, this has grown a lot. So, for me, it is an honor to be able to bring this message too, which is from the forest, from

the Niku'in people to the world, and a way to help, also to heal society, right?

[00:46:41] Mari (translator): So for me, it's been very interesting to see this, uh, uh, growth of, uh, uh, of this expansion of the, of the medicines. And it's been an honor to bring my culture and my people's culture, [00:47:00] um, to, to the world and, uh, to the people that need this, uh, this message and this healing and to see this family growing.

Um, it's for me, it's been an honor to be this messenger and to witness how this has grown around the world. Were

[00:47:24] ck: you surprised, you know, like, Oh, wow. Westerners are really interested in these jungle medicines. Or is it just more like, Oh, the medicine tells me that he's, you know, he's going to be everywhere around the world.

Was he surprised at all about this development? Were

[00:47:42] Mari (translator): you surprised by this, by this, like, all of a sudden, wow, people there are all very interested in the medicine of the forest? Is it something like that, surprising, or did you expect it? I think it's [00:48:00] surprising, right, for

[00:48:00] Ninawa: us, right, to have these people who value, right, culture, tradition, and respect, and even support, right, like, Yeah.

The indigenous people are the people who live, right? We are human, right? We have spirits, we have culture, and we are part of the world too.

[00:48:25] Mari (translator): He says, yes, it was surprised to see how this, uh, uh, it's interesting that these people are valuing this, um, their, their, their people and their culture and, uh, their ways, their wisdom and that they know and value and, and recognize them as a part of this world as well.

[00:48:47] ck: Why do you think people are so interested in the medicine work, in the music, in the culture? You know, based on all the interaction you have with thousands and thousands of [00:49:00] people, I'm curious to know what you think is so popular today.

[00:49:22] Ninawa: an amount of, of uh, um, uh, families. It says that it's about the healing. It's about bringing the healing, bringing the peace. And this is very important for me. To see a family union growing up with medicine in order to heal, to help the strengthening. And the other thing is that there are a lot of people involved in order to gain money too.

Today there are many people who

I don't have a lot [00:50:00] of knowledge about culture or spirituality. I do this work, but for the money.

[00:50:07] Mari (translator): So he says that he sees, um, that there are two reasons for this expansion and this growth. And one of, uh, one of them is really, um, healing and how the people are really seeking to heal, seeking, seeking their healing and seeking to heal. And this is what is moving and driving this expansion and this growth of, uh, the medicine families, um, around the world.

But the other, on the other hand, what he has also been witnessing is that there are other, other motivations, other people that have other motivations, um, around money and that maybe they are not actually, uh, prepared or, or, um, Uh, capable [00:51:00] of, uh, carrying these medicines, but they do so because they are seeing in it, uh, uh, opportunity for, uh, making money.

[00:51:14] ck: So on that note, I'm so glad you brought this up. So as a, a pageant, as a medicine man who operates with integrity and love. Right, that's your reputation when you hear someone else, you know, who is not maybe qualified who may have done some bad things serving the medicine. How do you feel about it? And is there anything that you do or say to, you know, So he said, it's good

[00:51:46] Mari (translator): that you're talking about it, and then ask you as a pajé that is recognized and respected for your work with integrity, with love, how [00:52:00] do you, uh, How do you feel when you meet or meet someone who is working in this way, misaligned with medicine, or who is not prepared, or who is disrespecting, or who is after only money, if you meet, do you talk to them about something, or how is your, uh, how do you react when you see people like this walking with medicine in this disrespectful manner.

And

[00:52:35] Ninawa: my part, I just, what I have to contribute with this part is to always leave it clear for people to take this care and sometimes I also leave my reply for people to take care also of passing medicine, right? Ewww.

And that we have a lot [00:53:00] of responsibility, right? To know where the medicines, the sources come from. Because this is the great care we must have, right? With our

[00:53:12] Mari (translator): The way I can, can, and have been contributing, um, to this sort of situation is really just always bringing this, uh, uh, warnings and this, uh, uh, so that that people can be alert and aware and that they know who is Uh, where the medicine they're drinking is coming from and who it is, the person who is serving them and, uh, so just to Seek out information and to to be very responsible around how they are Uh, sitting with, with the medicine and carrying the medicine.

[00:53:56] ck: So speak to my audience. I mean, obviously you're one [00:54:00] of the most reputable, you know, pageis out there, but what criteria would you advise people who are listening or watching, okay, so these are the criteria, or these are the type of questions that you should ask.

[00:54:15] Mari (translator): So he's asking to speak now to his audience.

Uh, you, as one of the most respected pageis that we know.

to feel the firmness and confidence that it will be, uh, that it is a person who [00:55:00] is prepared. I think the cool thing that

[00:55:02] Ninawa: I see to participate in the work, I think we have to know where the master comes from, right? The master, the teacher, right? I think the important thing for us is to know the formations, right?

The diets that the person had, which people, you know? I think that's the most

important thing. But that's what's important to me, you know? Knowing where the medicine comes from, who it is, you know? The precautions. Medicine is everywhere, but we have to be very careful with medicine, knowing where it comes from, right? All medicines, we have to be careful with them, and what I see as important to us is that, right?

Especially for those who are here for the first time, I think it's good to have experience with those who come from the source, right? From the origin, from the tradition, which is to be able to be stronger, right? So that later, we can go anywhere.[00:56:00]

[00:56:12] Mari (translator): So I think, um, the most important thing is really to know who it is that is serving. the medicine, where is this person coming from, what kind of preparation they had, what sort of diets have they done, so to seek out this information of who it is that is carrying the medicine, who is serving the medicine, where is the medicine coming from, and especially if it's your first time, I recommend to, uh, To connect with the source, with the origins, with the people that are, uh, traditionally carrying this medicines and even still then [00:57:00] just under, seek out to a recommendation to know who they are, where they're coming from, how they prepared to be in this role.

Uh, and it's, it's very important to not drink medicine with just anyone.

[00:57:18] ck: Beautiful. Thank you so much. You have time for a couple more questions.

[00:57:28] Mari (translator): he's done. .

[00:57:29] ck: He's done. Great. Well, you know what, thank you so much for. Everything that you do, everything that, you know, we'll never know that you do, I really, really appreciate being here on The Warrior. Aw shawsh. Aw shawsh. Salegria. Have a good one, bye bye.

Salegria. Salegria.

[00:57:46] Ninawa: Salegria.