186 David Sonnenschein: Finding Your Muse: Harness Sound, Dreams, and AI to Transform Your Life

[00:00:00] ck: Welcome to Noble Warrior. My name is CK Lin. This is where I interview conscious entrepreneurs, practitioners about their journey to live a life with more purpose, more joy, and more success. Today, I have the good fortune of having David Sonenshine here with me. He is the founder of IQsonics, where he explored the profound connection between sound and the brain to unlock human potential, and he has a background in neuroscience.

Music and filmmaking, David has pioneered groundbreaking techniques to enhance cognitive performance while being in creativity through music. Welcome to Noble Warrior, David.

[00:00:42] David: It's my pleasure. Yeah, it's great to be

[00:00:45] ck: Awesome. So there's a lot of different directions we're going to go into. I know that one thing we have in common is of our, of our use. of plant medicine as a way to help us, you know, deepen our consciousness, understanding [00:01:00] ourselves better, understanding spirituality better. And, um, I'm curious from your perspective, what is your journey been like in using that as a tool to help you be a better human being, be a better creator, be a better entrepreneur?

[00:01:14] David: At the age of 15, I discovered, uh, Man and His Symbols by Carl Jung.

And that was my favorite reading for a long time, uh, and keeping dream journals really since that age. So, I've always been interested in that interface of mind, body, art, science, spirituality. Um, so plant medicines have been one factor in that. Um, I know for a lot of people, it's like, Oh my God, it just opens up a whole new world.

For me, it was reinforcing a world that I lived in as a very young person. I had. Kind of out of body experiences and

[00:01:56] ck: Oh, wow.

[00:01:57] David: dreams and all these kinds of things [00:02:00] that are kind of similar to what you might achieve with plant medicine. But I was having these from a very young age. So plant medicine has been, um, varied in my, uh, explorations.

Uh, I lived in Brazil for 15 years. So at one point got involved. with the ayahuasca traditions.

[00:02:22] ck: That's in the church. Yeah.

[00:02:24] David: uh, the Santo Daime church was my first exposure. I actually watched and filmed and interviewed and studied brainwaves of people on ayahuasca, um, very much from a scientific,

[00:02:40] ck: wanted to do that. I've always wanted to do that. So that's so cool. I had no idea. So tell me about, you know,

[00:02:46] David: well, Yeah, my background, uh, going back a little further, uh, in neuroscience, I worked in a sleep laboratory at, uh, the VA hospital in La Jolla as an undergrad at UCSD, [00:03:00] and I was, uh, measuring brain waves for sleep disturbances and also doing some other research as well. Uh, on daydreaming, in fact, and what happens with the brainwaves with daydreaming and such.

Uh, so when I was in Brazil, uh, I lived there for 15 years, mainly focusing on my life as a filmmaker and a father. I had two children born there. Um, uh, family man and, um, I was invited by other colleagues. In fact, one American researcher from the United States and others in Brazil, where we measured the brainwaves of people who were in the Santo Daime church, which is one form of the ayahuasca experience.

And just to give a little background, Santo Daime is not just about ayahuasca, Santo Daime is integrating a very deep [00:04:00] connection to Catholicism and to the indigenous people. It began a little over a hundred years ago with a synchronistic combination of these different religions. And people receiving from the plant medicine goes way back with the indigenous tribes in the Amazon.

Santo Daime certainly has a root in there, but it also combines these other, other factors, other social and cultural and religious traditions. So in a Santo Daime church, uh, it looks like from the outside, there's the men and the women are on two sides. They're dressed very formally. In uniforms that are very, um, specific, the, uh, women wear white dresses and little crowns on their heads.

The [00:05:00] men all wear white shirts and, and ties. And they, uh, have the musicians, uh, and, and other, uh, artifacts and things in the middle, uh, that conduct the, the, uh, And it goes on for many hours and you stay in line standing the whole time and it's a two step kind of dance that, that, that, and, and do the hymns and the hymns are very traditional.

So this was the environment that we were studying brainwaves in as people who are doing this, we would call out one person and have them sit down and we would, you know, compared their brainwaves from before and during, you know, to see what it was, what was going on. Um, we found in general that, that there were, um, there was a hyperactivity in the gamma, I mean, high frequencies.

Um, I also did brainwave studies with healers in [00:06:00] Brazil and we found some similar, similar things as, as we, Would look like for, um, uh, Buddhist monks who have been measured with their brainwaves as well to go into, uh, let's say, you know, altered states of, of, of being able to withstand extreme cold, for example, those kinds of altered states with meditation.

So that's a really, uh, high level of it. I'm not an expert in the actual. Um, area, uh, other than the fact that I published papers many years ago and I'm not currently doing brainwave studies. So there's a lot more that I'm learning and I love to learn. And I just say that as a general thing in all areas, uh, come to your, um, your podcasts and learn from your other guests, for example, that things that I don't know about.

I love that.

[00:06:55] ck: Yeah. I mean, one of the thing about brainwave measurement that I'm aware of is you [00:07:00] have to be steady, right? Cause any little bit of a movement and we'll create artifacts in the, you know, in the subtleties of the brainwaves. And as you know, those of you that in the know, ayahuasca, it's kind of hard for you to keep still, you know, giving all the.

All the activities and all the chants on the movement, all the singing and everything.

[00:07:22] David: Yeah. We would ask the person to come out of that environment and have them sit in a chair and be calm and no movement. Just because of that during that measurement, so it wasn't it wasn't exactly what was happening when they were in the communal experience. It was so nonetheless, we got what we could get.

[00:07:44] ck: Yeah. I mean, as the measurement equipment and sensors get smaller, my hope is that we can, you know, get more and more of a native, you know, measurement rather than coming out, stop every, everything and to [00:08:00] do it. Um, but that's my hope. Yeah. So, um,

[00:08:04] David: use. I use a home device called Muse, which is. It's not very accurate, honestly. I mean, it, it, uh, is for basically, let's say calming your mind and you hear sounds that give a biofeedback, neural feedback, uh, of little birds, uh, twittering when, when you finally get calm and when you're agitated is kind of like the wind is blowing and so it gives something, but they generally ask you to kind of still,

[00:08:35] ck: Yeah, I mean, my what I desire, you know, now that we're kind of nerding out about this a little bit is to have something similar, like a neural feedback type device during, let's say ceremony as an example, because as you, you know, personally have experienced, I'm sure many others who are listening. I've experienced this as well, um, sometimes you get lost in [00:09:00] the force, right?

Sometimes you're like, what's going on here? And, and then having a mantra, having a sound is very, um, it provides an anchor to, to, to help us, you know, keep focusing on our intention for the ceremony as an example. Right now, my fantasy as a scientist, as a, as a biohacker, as a neurohacker is, you know, I don't know what's going on here, but if there's a device that's measuring this constantly and it will remind me, maybe with a chime, maybe with a sound, maybe with a little bird, okay, focus on your intention or your attention, uh, that would be very helpful, you know, for something like a ceremonial experience.

[00:09:42] David: I would, uh, contact the people at muse and see if you want to maybe already. start something in that line since they've got a head start in monitoring and feedback, neural feedback. At least that's one that's out there in the public. Um, your [00:10:00] point though to, maybe we can go down that rabbit hole if you'd like, about how to Let's say navigate the journey and what you would want to navigate consciously versus allowing to happen more passively or just, just, you know, listening mode as opposed to an expressive mode, which are two different functions of our whole nervous system.

Um, you brought that up and. One, um, thought I, uh, an action that I take is around intention. So anytime I'm doing any kind of plant journey or anything of that nature, that doesn't have to be plant journey is, it's about the setup and it may be a mantra, maybe I say like, this is what I want to focus on, or this is a question that I have and really get it clear in my mind.

[00:11:00] And so I know I can return to that. And it's, it's an anchoring, uh, that, that I use for myself. Um, it's used in NLP, it's used in other, other forms. But I think that that's one thing that is, uh, very important, especially when, uh, Uh, you are, uh, with a strong dose of the medicine that is taking you beyond your ordinary reality.

And your body may be reacting involuntarily. Your thoughts or your perceptions are all over the map. Um, and If you're lucky, you won't even think about what your intention was. It will just be because if you're thinking about your intention, you're still in your mind in a sense, but it is a place to anchor.

It's a little bit like a lucid dreaming. If you've had any experience [00:12:00] with lucid dreaming or studied what it's about. Are you familiar with that area?

[00:12:05] ck: Um, I am haven't really studied yet, but when I was younger, I was actually gifted with that ability. I couldn't actually control, you know, how I want to be, what I want to say, you know, and just explore different things. I had no idea that was a skill. So I kind of lost that skill over time, you know, in life, but when I was much younger, I was able to lose a dream, much like the inception.

[00:12:31] David: So you have that in your ability and, and a lot of people lose it around seven years old. This is something that's typical of children being open to these experiences and, um, whether they're out of body experiences or lucid dreaming or, you know, connecting with, um, Non physical beings. Let me just be very broad about that.

Cause it kind of shuts down typically around seven years [00:13:00] old for various reasons. Uh, neurologically things are kind of solidifying the hole in your cranium has closed up, you know, there's, there's all sorts of physical, physical and physiological changes that are happening that will influence us as we grow older.

However, for you, you have that in your. history and your nervous system. So if you want to, you can learn and train to get back to that. And for me, it is very similar to a plant journey where things are happening. And the rules of physics time and space, for example, are not the same. And yet we can learn how to navigate.

In those, uh, on a different level of time, space, physical reality. So, that's something, I also studied a bit of that, um, [00:14:00] through Carlos Castaneda's writings.

[00:14:02] ck: So I actually, David, on that note, um, on this podcast, we do allude to a lot of the modern science, so more specifically psychology, right? And then Carl Jung is actually one of the guys that I refer to quite a bit because I, what, what he's saying or, or what he wrote really resonates with my direct experience of.

My psyche, my consciousness. Yeah. So, um, what I love about what he said is our dreams essentially is our deep subconscious attempt to try to make sense of all the things that it experiences without the, um, without the executive function, right? Trying to control, right? This is how it is. And then, you know, it's, it's, you know, doing that, you know, Um, that deep, um, hypnagogic state, right, in between sleeplessness and, and, [00:15:00] and wakefulness is trying to figure out to make sense of this world that we mostly don't understand.

So why I'm bringing that up, I'm curious, you know, cause you had alluded to that name as well earlier. How do you, you know, um, use dreams as a way to help you? Make sense of, you know, consciousness makes sense of the unknown makes sense of on the uncertainties make sense of the chaotic nature of reality.

Like, how do you use it in a way that's not just intellectually curious. But it sounds like you're using it in a way that's fulfilling a certain intention. Like, how do you think about dreams?

[00:15:47] David: Well, uh, really specifically, uh, I keep a dream journal, um, For the most part, for the last, um, 50 [00:16:00] plus years, 5 0. I started at 15 and I'm 71. So I, I didn't do it every year, but I'm currently doing it on a daily basis, and I have been for a while. Um, and so the phenomenon of dream recall, just writing it down because I'm not writing it while I'm dreaming.

It is a memory. So it's different than say doing plant medicine and you're in the middle of the dream or lucid dreaming. And you're in the middle of the dream. Writing a dream journal is remembering having watched the movie, you know, a few minutes ago or an hour ago, whatever. And so, um, the phenomenon of remembering and going back to a state is A use of the brain that is for me, um, it's like working out, uh, at the gym and, uh, [00:17:00] in a brain gym.

Um, and it also helps me tap in when I want to be creative or want to, uh, solve a problem. And I want to tap into something that I remembered like, um, an hour ago or yesterday, it's, it's, um, brain trainer, a memory trainer for me in and of itself, remembering the dreams is a very useful, um, exercise, you know, for my brain.

So that, that is something very practical.

[00:17:40] ck: quick, just a quick interjection, I want to make sure I understand it. So instead of like using, um, I don't know, learning a foreign language or, you know, a Jeopardy type of, you know, factoids of type things. You're exercising that memory muscle is by recalling your dreams. Yes.

[00:17:58] David: Yeah. Not [00:18:00] exclusively, but certainly that, that is a conscious reason why I do it. Um, I'm also a musician so that I, I, uh, I exercise my brain in a very different way with music, uh, and we can talk about that in a later segment. Um, but the, uh, memory of the dream itself is, uh, Is part of my conscious, uh, efforts, uh, for, you know, exercising my memory.

Okay. So, so, um, when I, this morning, for example, um, I know, uh, pretty much I dream every morning, every night, every morning. And when I woke up, it wasn't close enough for me to say, oh, I know what to write. It was, there were feelings that were kind of individual images, but it wasn't even enough for me to write.

And I thought. Am I gonna get down on [00:19:00] myself for not being able to remember it? Like, and I, I also have this meta view then of, of my own judgments and emotions around that and saying, you know, I can get down on myself for not remembering and I didn't do my job, you know, or I can just say, well, that's what happened today.

So there's also another practice of non attachment that I'm experiencing with it. So it's a different level, um, of what happened today and some, some days, but I'd say, you know, 80, 90 percent of the days I wake up. It's right there. And sometimes it's fragments and I go, that's okay. I write the fragments down.

Sometimes it's a full blown story with all the details. And I write the whole thing down, whatever it is. So I'm, I'm kind of observing that interface as well, between the dream world, uh, outside of time, space world, and my physical reality and looking at the interface and [00:20:00] experiencing that interface through this memory.

[00:20:02] ck: So quick question there, um, based on the, you know, what I know about, you know, Freud and, you know, Carl Jung and all these guys. Freud is very much about analyzing the content of the dream, whereas Carl Jung, you know, not so much about the exact content, it's more of just the gestalt, right, the feelings and emotions around it, right, the boundaries around it.

Um, I'm curious, do you put a lot of, you know, emphasis or gravity around the actual content or is it really just more about the gestalt? By the shape and then the experience of the dream. So as a way to help you reconcile.

[00:20:41] David: I'd

say. All of that. Yes, because when I was in college, I was so interested in this that I, I couldn't find a course on it. So I created an independent study. So I had independent study on dream analysis. And I went [00:21:00] through all those guys and a lot more. And this was back in the 70s, so it was up until the 70s.

They were all already starting to do studies on lucid dreaming. Um, but everything from Carl Jung and, and Freud and up through, I, and I, I was noting my dreams and, and we were, My, uh, wasn't even a professor, he was a psychologist and, and, and we, we worked together and went through it on all those levels.

And so I got very familiar with that. And I'm open to all of it all the time. Now, that being said, um, other things have transpired in my life in the 50 years. So that my dreams have gotten a different import, let's say, uh, in terms of meaning for me. Sometimes they're, um, they're stories that are so amazing that I want to actually create something with them,

[00:21:57] ck: [00:22:00] Yep.

[00:22:03] David: um, you know, several very famous musicians, including Paul McCartney, um, uh, you know, have, have gotten their inspirations from their dreams.

Uh, so this is something that I've. Been experiencing in terms of creative output, um, in terms of the meaning, if I'm going to follow it, uh, and dig in that this means something and it may be important for me and not just for me, maybe for my loved ones or from my community or for the earth, uh, because that's something I've more recently been, um, experiencing.

It's not just becoming aware. It's an experience that I'll share that is a basically a waking dream. Uh, that I've been, uh, practicing. But back to the, the actual dreams and dream analysis and, and meanings. Um, some of them is just so [00:23:00] entertaining. They're just fun. They're just like wild and wacky. And it's like to share them because they're just really cool.

Others are like really personal and I'm not going to tell anybody else's dream. This is just like really personal. And I'm not going to tell, or sometimes very embarrassing or sometimes like. Significant about,

heard about that dream. They might be upset or offended or, you know, or my,

my relationship, my waking real relationship with that person. If they knew that I had

that dream, heard about that dream, they might be, uh, kind of internally,

and sometimes they're so upsetting, I have to go out and do something physical and just work it off, you know, um, so, so it does affect me, but not. All the time, you know, and I, it comes kind of mysteriously. I sometimes incubate dreams, [00:24:00] um, meaning I, I wants to get a dream that'll help me with something.

[00:24:04] ck: Wait, back up. I don't understand. One more time. What does that mean?

[00:24:08] David: incubate a dream to come by, um, meditating prior to going to sleep.

[00:24:15] ck: Oh, like consciously, like guiding your subconscious. Like I want to dream about X, kind of like that person, and a thing, an idea, a

[00:24:25] David: I've got a problem and I haven't solved it, and I don't know where to go, give me a dream that'll help me with that, you know, so, so sometimes that, there's another form of, of dream that I've been experiencing for the last 25 years, which is a communal dream, and I meet with a, uh, dream council, uh, of physical beings, uh, once a month,

[00:24:52] ck: Wait, you lost me.

[00:24:54] David: I meet with a, uh, I meet with a council of people,

[00:24:58] ck: Like a, like a group of [00:25:00] people, as in

[00:25:02] David: share our dreams.

[00:25:04] ck: like, Hey, let's all dream about X topic tonight like that.

[00:25:08] David: No, no, it's usually recounting the dreams that we've had.

[00:25:12] ck: Oh, I see. It's like a, like a, like a meetup, like a mastermind of,

[00:25:17] David: Yeah, exactly.

[00:25:18] ck: analyzing dreams together kind of thing.

[00:25:21] David: Yes, I'll be a little put the context. This is a group that I've been part of this community for 25 years in Topanga. It's open to the public. Anybody can come. They want to know more. They can get in touch with me. We meet, and it's called Dre, DARE, based on, uh, a, um, communal healing circle, uh, originating in Zimbabwe, Africa, and one of the healers from Zimbabwe, and the person whose home we do this at.

Her Nina name is Dina Metzger, [00:26:00] M-E-T-Z-G-E-R. She's a well known author, poet, and, and teacher. We meet once a month for what we call Daré. And the public is, is welcome to come. There's no financial involvement at all. And we do healings, uh, sound healing work, uh, for people who have come specifically for sound healing work.

We do a council, which is, um, like a Native American passing the talking stick around a council question. And we do dream work. And these three activities happen over about a, uh, eight or nine hour period, uh, once a month. Um, and so when we do the dream work, um, we are asked as a group, who has a dream for the community?

And we raise our hands and then, um, whoever has a dream that they want to share and then who has a dream that they feel is the opening dream and that

[00:26:59] ck: What's an [00:27:00] opening dream? I don't know what

[00:27:01] David: is the opening dream is leading into the connection with the community that is, um, bringing in the energies from, from, uh, The communal, uh, and it could be an outside experience like, you know, a natural disaster that we maybe had a fire in Topanga, uh, or the hurricanes or whatever

[00:27:23] ck: Oh, I see. So it's a phenomenon that impacts the community locally or globally or something.

[00:27:31] David: it may be that. That's an example.

[00:27:34] ck: a premonition kind of thing.

[00:27:36] David: Could be. It could be. It's more an intuitive sense that this is the opening the door to this

[00:27:44] ck: I see.

[00:27:44] David: for us to experience communally. And then we're asked, who has the closing dream? Before we start, the person just raises their hand. So we know that we're identifying the opening and closing dreams for the circle, the dream circle.

[00:28:00] And then we, we go around the circle and, and recount our dreams. And, uh, 100 percent of the time, these dreams have elements that weave together into what I call a meta dream. So it's a dream that we are weaving together that is significant for the whole community. It's a bit like Carl Jung's, uh, collective

[00:28:21] ck: I'm conscious. Yeah.

[00:28:23] David: subconscious in, in that sense, but it's in this container.

And, and the dream imagery is. often very startling, um, uh, but often weaving very specific imagery or events or characters that tie together between the

[00:28:46] ck: Hmm. Hmm.

[00:28:47] David: And by the end, uh, we close the circle and, uh, and look at the whole experience that we've had for the last hour or two.

[00:28:59] ck: Hmm. [00:29:00] Interesting. So let me just do a quick recap dreams for you. Some are just wacky, entertaining, you know, double seven, James Bond, whatever, you know, though it kind of could be like movie worthy or music worthy or story worthy. I just interesting for some. It's a very, very personal and you, you know, for some it's, you know, about processing something that.

Either it is deep within your subconscious, or for some it's like a problem that you're trying to solve, or product you're trying to develop, an issue that you're trying to understand, you know, things like that. And then, This is a new one I never heard before is, you know, you also have a communal aspect of it where you share your dreams individually to try to understand what's going on with the collective, maybe just regional to the Topanga Kenyan community, or maybe it could be global, etc.

Is that accurate reflection of what you [00:30:00] said?

[00:30:00] David: it is. And just to add to that little piece, it's often, um, the dream circle is about the human experience expanded beyond the individual. Uh, for example, uh, having, uh, elder parents who are getting close to passing, those might be familiar experiences between the members. And then maybe someone has. a younger, uh, relative that is passing or has passed, and the dreams bring up that as a theme, and then we all dive in into whatever that is for us, uh, opening up compassion, understanding, uh, in, in many ways.

So that's another example just to add what happens when we're in community.

[00:30:59] ck: [00:31:00] Yeah. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Reminds me a lot of. So I'm big on narratives, right? We are the stories we tell ourselves and we all have empowering stories and disempowering stories. And for, so for me, the purpose of ceremony is to look at all of my stories from a distance. experience it viscerally, at the same time also have an opportunity to look at it from a distance, a la I'm the, the, um, um, the, the, the writer, the audience, the director and the actor are the same time type of metaphor.

So, um, so that's one of the reasons I love ceremonies, because I can just look at all the, you know, interesting narratives that's hidden in my consciousness that I wasn't aware of. So, um, and when I'm hearing you, it brings up to me the image of like a sharing circle where people [00:32:00] share different narratives and they can analyze together and potentially weave a collective narrative.

or not. Um, but so for me, things like, you know, astrology or, you know, the metaphysical or the dream analysis or, you know, um, what do you call those, those things, tarot cards. I don't necessarily subscribe to a specific narrative per se, but there are just extra data points, narratives for me to consider.

And then draw upon to see which narratives empower, you know, how I want to live my life, the most holistic, most healthy way versus the ones that don't really, they're just entertaining and you know, there's a, there's a passive narrative. So that's kind of like, as you're speaking, that's, that's what comes to mind.

I can see the parallels to how I'm using these type of alter state experiences to, you [00:33:00] know, um, regulate my narratives. Yeah.

[00:33:05] David: And I will just add that I have not been doing plant medicine for many years, uh, occasionally, but not like I was when I was in Brazil doing it, you know, maybe 40 or 50 times in, in the span of maybe seven or eight years, it was not every week by any means, but it was a continual exploration and, and, you know, since then, other, other plant medicines, uh, you know, uh, um, San Pedro, um, mushrooms, uh, uh, and such.

Um, what's happened in the last few years, uh, is that I, uh, really found a way to tap into that without needing to do the plant medicine. I'm able to go there, whether it's dreams or other means. And so something [00:34:00] specific I'll share, uh, around this, and especially, uh, With the communal aspect has been in the.

Metal Community Breathwork, the Wim Hof Breathwork that we do is a Monday through Friday, 7. 30am. I'm online with a group of guys. And we spend, uh, about a half an hour or so doing this breath work, pretty much the same every day. Um, extending sometimes on one day a week, we go a little longer. Breath holds from 90 seconds to 3 minutes.

Um, and after it, Having done this for about a year and a half with this group, we would hang out afterwards and chat and kind of what's, what's happening in our lives. And it was really a good connecting thing early in the morning. And then we go on our way. I started [00:35:00] to spontaneously get to this very, very silent place during these breath holds, uh, where the monkey mind, the chatter, the to do list, uh, the, the anxieties or the desires or whatever, they just kind of dropped down and got quieter and quieter.

As. Many, uh, confined with different forms of meditation, Zen meditation or whatever it may be. But this was happening on a regular basis, five days a week, and spontaneously I reached that quiet, silent, deep silent place and began to hear an inner voice, we could call it. Um, Words and I started writing the words down one by one.

I had no idea what was coming next and began writing these down and then sharing it with the group after the breath work. And now I have been [00:36:00] doing this for about a year and a half, many hundreds of times. And pretty much every time, somebody in the group goes, Oh my God, I gotta talk to you about this.

This is happening for me right now. It happened this morning. It happened yesterday morning. Where, what I read, it was like, you mentioned tarot cards. It was kind of like a tarot reading for somebody in the group. And I wouldn't even know who it would be for. It would be things like, I don't know anything about this.

Or, sometimes I would. But, I could read. Right now the one we had this morning that had something to do with somebody just as an example I take about a minute.

[00:36:45] ck: Go ahead. Yeah, sure. Let's do it.

[00:36:48] David: me just, um, um, pull it up, uh, so read on the screen here. Um,

ideas are elements of energy [00:37:00] to be fondled in the conscious realm. Fondled like teddy bears found in the crib and lizards in the wild being caught for terrain, terrarium of breeding and racing down the carpeted halls between bedrooms. Waiting for them to grow and mature, or cry out from lack of milk and nurturing, ideas want to be born and bred for the realm of thoroughbred racing, Nobel Prize discoveries, and giant stadiums cheering and rocking to the beat.

But the beginning naked forms are so vulnerable, delicate, wise, and naked. Needing care and nurturing, a family to raise this young thing into maturity, don't be too harsh or too lenient, find the right place and time and food and stimulation for growth and maturity. It is worth the effort.

[00:37:57] ck: Beautifully said.

[00:37:59] David: [00:38:00] So

[00:38:01] ck: I have so many questions for you, David, but, uh, is there anything else you wanted to say before?

[00:38:06] David: I'll add that after I read this, one of the members of our group said, Oh my God, I, this is so on my mind. I spent the last hour talking to my wife about this idea I have, and I don't know what I should do with him if I should nurture it. And he says, this is so rare for me because I usually get up in the morning and I'm, I'm I'm active.

I'm doing my exercise before I come to breath. Look, I don't talk to anybody, but this is so present for me. And, and, and our conversation went on for another 20, 30 minutes about this whole process of nurturing ideas. And everybody's came in and participated in the gut, very controversial in lots of, well, what do you mean by ideas?

I mean, it's just started a whole thing kind of like. The dream circle, and this is happening every [00:39:00] day and every day. It's a different thing. Now. I also generate an image in Dolly from the prompt of this message, which can also take us in whole new directions, which I share in the

[00:39:13] ck: Oh, yeah. So again, so many things I can follow here.

[00:39:17] David: I'm using a I as well to kind of bounce this

[00:39:20] ck: Perfect. So, so before we get to the augmentation, you're ready to do with the tools and all these things. Now, do you think that's idea, that download is yours, you know, or is it just, or is it?

[00:39:35] David: Great question. Great question. This one in particular has a little piece that is definitely mine. I used to Catch lizards and race them down the hallways between the bedrooms. So that comes from my personal experience But why did it come in to this particular thing? And, and by the way, I would catch these lizards and they would [00:40:00] lay eggs in the terrarium.

And I would want them to hatch and nurture them into like little baby lizards. But unfortunately they didn't. So they weren't nurtured properly. So that didn't get into the reading, but that's a backstory to what this is talking about, how do you nurture ideas? How do you nurture something? That's like an egg.

It isn't just plop the egg out of the lizard. There it is, but it needs something else to grow. So. Um, and the teddy bear is also a little bit alive, uh, because this little teddy bear just came into my life. And this is Sing and Speak for Kids is the name of the program that I've developed for helping kids with speech delays, uh, and, and this is our mascot.

Brown Bear is The main song is the brown bear song, and so teddy bears, uh, we just got a load of teddy bears. So, that came in to the song, uh, to the song, to the message this [00:41:00] morning from my personal life. Those are two images that, that wove in. However, um, I, I have recognized a lot of times, mornings, I, I have no connection at all with it, but the connection is more on this.

Deeper symbolic collective unconscious level. Is it collective conscious or unconscious? I, I, both of them kind of make sense. But how do you term that? Collective conscious or unconscious?

[00:41:29] ck: unconscious. I think that's the more specific term that you use, but I understand what you're saying.

[00:41:36] David: Yeah. Yeah. So we bring it out to the collective conscious when we're sharing the dreams or sharing, uh, post breathing, um, with these ideas. And, and then I'm learning. Um, yesterday. Another example is extraordinary. It was about, um, building apartment buildings that [00:42:00] would be for the For low income families, but that would be really generating well being and it went on and on.

It's like I don't have anything to do with with apartment building and another metal member said, Oh, my God, I'm in the car right now going to a meeting. For urban renewal in San Pedro, and we're talking exactly about this building of large apartment complexes that are going to be for well being and good for the earth, etc.

And he was so blown away. So, oh, by the way, my son, Alex is, um, an expert in urban gardening and has consulted with those. Maybe you guys should get together. He happens to live in San Pedro. Then the Mel guy got to this place. And I said, well, my son works the urban garden in San Pedro. And when, Lionel is his name, Lionel [00:43:00] arrived, the urban garden was right across the street from his meeting.

And we'll talk about synchronicity, you know, I mean, that's one of those like, Oh my God, you know, it's like, so that brought that. And so I put them together and now they're in contact with each other. Uh, and that came out of this. This, uh, message, you know, that I, what is this about? So that's another kind of story of how these things can manifest, uh, crossing over from who knows where into this, um, you know, four dimensional time space that we have

[00:43:37] ck: I mean, so many questions, um, but let me start off with the personal, right, the, the, the, the atomic unit of when thoughts come, um, for me, I'm an engineer by trade, right, by training, so I really want to, like, mess with it, like, make it precise and, you know, like, make it poetic and beautiful, just the way you [00:44:00] did it, right?

Does that, that would be what the mind wants, but based on my personal experience and studies, the more I try to mess with it, the more it's like, um, it's like a spider web, you know, just like a string, like flying the wind. The more I try to like grab at it, the, the, the, the less likely I'm able to catch it.

Right. But if I'm able to just catch like a couple of words, maybe a phrase, maybe an image, maybe a thought, maybe a feeling. Then I can, for me anyway, to, to describe the gestalt of it all versus trying to in the moment analyze and to make it beautiful. So I'm curious, um, for you, you just, you know, automatic writing style, or you try to some level of massaging and packaging and, you know, making it coherent.

[00:44:54] David: zero, zero, zero writing styles, zero editing. I am, [00:45:00] I'm just transcribing.

[00:45:01] ck: okay. So you, you hear a voice, basically you're just transcribing whatever is coming through.

[00:45:05] David: That's right. There's occasionally I will hear my judgment or question or critique of what that voice is saying and I recognize it, then I have another voice saying shut up. So I'll watch my brain

going around all that, you know.

[00:45:25] ck: I love that. Okay. So real quick, right? So sometimes. The ideas comes fast, you know, like a tidal wave or a tsunami is just like, there's not enough time to even process it, let alone writing things down. How are you able to, I guess, match the cadence of how the ideas come? I mean, because for me, often the ideas comes way faster than my ability to analyze and even write it down.

[00:45:53] David: process of the breathing messages, I'm just calling it that for reference, is that I touch [00:46:00] type. with my eyes closed, and I pretty much can type as fast as we can talk. So I, so, so there's no, there's no delay. Often I'm waiting for the words, uh, more than, not, no problem keeping up. Um, so it's the opposite.

It's like sometimes the word is there and I'm sitting, well, okay, whatever. Sometimes there'll be two or three words that'll come up. almost identical. And I go, well, which one? And I'm sitting there waiting for like, which one of those am I supposed to do? Uh, and then they'll select one. And then that's the one I do.

So there's some, I'm not editing it. I'm kind of waiting for it to be edited. If there's some ambiguity.

[00:46:43] ck: okay. So perfect. So on that note, so you have the opposite, right? Where it doesn't come as fast, then there's a pause or there's silence. How do you not again, urge or like hurry up or, you know, like, let's go, you [00:47:00] know, push for,

[00:47:02] David: It's not an effort for me to just be in silence. I'm, I was in silence before it came and that was an intentional calling of silence. So I'm totally at ease being in that silence. And not like I don't have an agenda. My ego is not involved. My, my willpower is not involved. My conscious mind isn't involved at all.

It says when it does get involved, it usually blocks the,

[00:47:30] ck: That, that, that's what I meant. Cause for me, again, I'm intellectually aware enough to know that, but nonetheless. The ego, the mind is still like, go. What is it? What is it? Like, you know, like,

[00:47:45] David: Here's the deal. Some days, and it's rare, some days there is no message, and that's totally okay. That in and of itself is a message. It's like me not being able to remember my dream. Okay, my memory wasn't there. Okay, my [00:48:00] channel's link was There's nothing to do, just let it go. So, so there, it's allowing me to be in a very quote, Zen place when we talk about non attachment.

I'm not attached to the outcome. And, and there are occasionally like, um, four letter words that come through. I go, really? And it says, yes, really. And, and so I just keep going. I type them and, and I, and I say them out loud when I read them. And, uh, it's, it's really a, um, Having been a creative being most of my life There are really basically two phases of creative experience I have one is is flooding out and sometimes like it's so fast I can't keep up with the with the creative stuff and the other is like sitting back and looking and then editing it critiquing And judging it getting a second draft, you know, etc And and I've been I've done, for example, screenwriting.

I've, I've published [00:49:00] books. I mean, uh, I, that's always, you know, reviewed before it goes out to the public. This is not.

[00:49:08] ck: yeah,

[00:49:08] David: is not reviewed.

[00:49:10] ck: that's so interesting. Um, well, one, I appreciate what you said about, you know, maybe it's not insistence, but the, just the, just the, the solidity in not being unattached. What you said was beautiful, right? Before you didn't have any thought and after you didn't have any thoughts, therefore you're not attached.

If there's a thought, there's no thought either way is great, right? So that's, I love that. Uh, um, what else was going to say? I forgot, but

[00:49:42] David: And, and the sentence may not complete. It may be, oh, oh, okay, I thought it was going to continue. There was a piece of me that was like, that's, that's incomplete grammar. And I'm waiting, but maybe That's where the period goes. Boop. Oh, okay. Then we stop, you know, and, and it's, it's, it's an interesting [00:50:00] interaction with a, um, a non physical, um, energy.

I'll just put it. And, and, uh, and I can talk a lot more about

[00:50:10] ck: actually, so yeah, why don't you double click on that? Cause okay. So this is how you relate as you're speaking, how it relates to me. I was younger, uh, I would think these are my ideas, my thoughts, therefore there's a lot of gravity, significance around. My, my, my, let me make it perfect before I can share it.

Right. And more and more as I'm going on this spiritual journey, the ayahuasca, the, the, the security of being really who I am and my self expression, these are just ideas flowing through me. So I'm still relatively attached, right? I still want it to look good, sound good. So it reflects nicely about who I am as a personality.

But less and less, more and more I can just speak freely and let it [00:51:00] flow. I'm curious for you, as you've been really studying this consciousness and creativity and ideas and letting it flow through you for 50 some years, What's the evolution of your, you know, thinking about ideas and who you are as a channel or a conduit and how do you, how do you just let it flow through you?

[00:51:26] David: uh, There's a really good, um, pivoting point that's happening for me with this, because I've not brought it to the public. In fact, this podcast is, is one of the first times I've spoken where it's going to be. To anybody who wants to listen to this. Um, I shared it inside of our metal community, uh, obviously.

So there's, it's been a container there and it's been suggested that maybe I make this a broader [00:52:00] access, like a to row kind of card where somebody can just pick one of the days and just read it and that's for them that day, I don't know the format, a hundred percent digital, since it's all digital right now.

And then. It was brought to my attention that I also have another persona in the world as the founder and CEO of my company IQsonics, which is audio music for brain health. Well, it kind of fits into all of this what we're talking about. However, our primary program is called Sing and Speak for Kids, which is aimed for children ages two to eight years old with speech delays, like autism, English language learners, stutterers.

And so our clients, our demographic, our families, um, and little children, and clinics, and schools, [00:53:00] and such. And we've been funded by the Department, uh, U. S. Department of Education, um, National Science Foundation. So, it was recommended if I go public with this, that maybe I do, A stage name as opposed to being the CEO and founder of singing speak for kids.

Now is getting out there with all this stuff that may not be appropriate for children. Uh, just as I said that I'm not editing, I'm not, I'm not aiming it for anybody, but on the other hand, maybe it's. Specifically not really child appropriate. Some of them could be. I mean, I had a teddy bear in this one.

You know, so that, that would be fun. Um, but some of them are much more, uh, adult material. Let's just put it that way. They either may have some violence or some sex or some very, um, [00:54:00] Dark materials that are just not child friendly, you know, so I am at a pivot point. I don't know what I'm going to do about that.

Um, and I don't. I don't care if I have a nom de plume, you know, I have a stage name. A lot of people seem to be doing that. Um, but then if anybody wants to figure it out, I, I'm not going to be behind the curtain, kind of like trying to pretend, but maybe just in terms of branding and public kind of impact.

So that's something that's happening currently with me and I will tune in, in a, you know, near future with, with what I'm going to do about that.

[00:54:46] ck: So the question, so thank you for that. Well, Sasha Fierce, right? Beyonce, you know, she has different personality personas. So. You know, and you can just share an aspect of Davis, you know, [00:55:00] sunshine, um, some other ways, right? So you don't have to necessarily use your legal name for that for sure. The question was, what's your relationship with this?

So let me give you some examples.

[00:55:12] David: Yeah.

[00:55:14] ck: Some people just call it the muse

[00:55:17] David: Mm hmm.

[00:55:17] ck: it source. Some people call it, there's some personification of maybe some goddess or some priest or some, you know, some God or some avatars as a way to cultivate that direct relationship with, you know, the goddess of creativity or things like that.

So as you are waiting for instructions, is it a singular

[00:55:42] David: Yeah.

[00:55:43] ck: Avatar entity or is it just like a, you know, just like a cloud of, you know, ideas or is it like your future self? How do you think about, you know, where are you getting all these ideas from? [00:56:00] Okay.

[00:56:15] David: with him. I've done documentaries about them. I'm, I'm very close to that world, uh, where they call that entity, uh, Whatever it may be.

Uh, and, and, um, I haven't received any kind of message from that source to personify it. So people have asked me, and that's my answer at this point. Um, it also has quite a lot of different tones to it. Sometimes it's very playful and funny. Other times it's just like hardcore. Dark or, or hitting hard on, on like a deep [00:57:00] spiritual question.

Other times it's weird, just like, what is that about? Other times it's a story, like a fable. Actually, this was something that I prompted The Muse, by the way, that's a term that I'm using for my own podcast, because I'm, I'm deeply interested in this query that you're talking about. I asked for this This is one of the few times when it was like a, another direction where I was kind of speaking or expressing to whatever source this is that I called for

[00:57:42] ck: Okay.

[00:57:49] David: you know, get a little story like a fable or something that we could tell the story.

And in fact, that started to happen after I made that conscious intention doesn't happen all the [00:58:00] time, but I've had. And it kind of is kind of funny because it's almost always starts out, Once upon a time, I know, Oh, here comes the story. And, and so it introduces a character and the characters do things and there's usually a, you know, Conflict and a goal and a, you know, a resolution and, and a little moral at the end and it's kind of cute.

It's kind of like a Aesop's Fable kind of thing or, or something like that, but usually very, very, um, psychedelic or odd or like that, how could, it's not a realistic story. Uh, it usually has a lot of magic and, and um, imagination in it.

[00:58:48] ck: So this, this whole conversation is very fascinating for me for a number of reasons. Um, I love ideas [00:59:00] like that's, that's my arena. That's my jam, right? People with certain people, I like less spores, like I love the idea of talking about ideas, right? How do I really hone it?

[00:59:10] David: today's, today's message was for you, too, then.

[00:59:13] ck: Oh, perfect. Yeah. I mean, actually, so, so, so let me double click on what you wrote.

Because I love ideas, you know, I am thinking about, you know, creating or making it more scientific. How do you concretize a vision? Because sometimes, as I mentioned earlier, it's like grasping a spider web at the wind, right? You're like, you can't, you're trying to catch it. But, you know, the more you try, the less likely you're going to be able to do it.

I can't also just sit and not do anything. So, like, what do I do, right? So, so, I've been actually using, this is a perfect segue to the ChachiPT thing, because I actually was using ChachiPT as a great, you know, way to help me, like, really grab [01:00:00] at and articulate what is it that I'm trying to say. Right? And then also recall certain things, maybe the Elizabeth Gilbert TED Talk, you know, because she talked about some similar or, um, this book, Greatness Can't Be, Why Greatness Can't Be Planned, you know, the scientific researchers have talked about, you know, how ideas are formed.

And, you know, I talk about Rick Rubin's book, right? Creativity, you know, how he think about these type of things. So it's been super helpful just to just like, just say everything there's to say using chat GPT is a very quick way to, you know, discuss articulate these very esoteric things. So how perfect that that was your download this morning.

[01:00:43] David: Absolutely. And, and this sits right next to me all the time. If you've never seen this book, this was written in the 1960s, the act of creation by Arthur Kessler. Um, it's, I've been reading this for many decades. [01:01:00] It's, it's a thick one, but, uh, you might enjoy checking that out. And if it's too long, ask chat GPT to somebody.

[01:01:07] ck: So, so, okay, it's a perfect segue, right? So you've been consulting the muse, uh, in various forms and it has its own personalities and you know, mannerisms and maybe give you some prompts like once upon a time and so forth. And that's a, that's a, that's a prompt for you to, okay, better go pick up, you know, pen and pencil or whatever and start writing.

So these are all beautiful, um, realization that you have. Now comes chat GPT, you know, for me, it's, it's, it's the super tool is the man's best attempt to, you know, package or, or capture the gene in a bottle, so to speak. How are you thinking about using chat GPT as a way to you know, um, to do this better to supercharge the creative process.[01:02:00]

[01:02:00] David: Well, in the morning breathwork, what, uh, after the first six months or so, um, I had been handwriting, and then I started typing, and then a few months into that, I realized I could copy the prompt. While I was still doing the breath hold and just plop it in to check GPT, Dolly, the image generator and say, create an image off of this prompt and click and it takes about 30 seconds or so, which would be, you know, in the time that we were still holding our breath.

So. Talk about multitasking. I mean that it helped me a lot with my multitasking because it would do this on the side in 30 seconds and then I Would share that as well with the group and often the image would generate more Conversation and somebody would see something in the image that they may not have heard in the writing [01:03:00] So that's a very common thing Explicit example and, and it's been, now I'm expanding my, um, my experimentation, I'll just call it.

Um, I decided one day, for example, rather than listen to words, uh, for my prompt or for my messaging, I would doodle. And I just said, give me a, let my hand doodle, you know, and do whatever it's going to do without any idea of what it's going to be. And I took a photograph of it, scanned it basically, and I put that image into ChatGPT.

And I said, Write the story that this image is telling you. And it was stunning. It was a, had a characters beginning, middle, and end. I mean, it really found a whole story structure and followed it linearly through the, [01:04:00] the doodles. And then I shared that with the group as well. So that was a, a, kind of a reverse of the other.

Instead of, it, it was. Went from image to text rather than text to image, um, in this kind of dreamlike space. Now, I've been using it for many other things besides that. I'll give another example unless you want to ask me something about that before I go to another

[01:04:28] ck: No, keep going. You're doing good. Yeah.

[01:04:32] David: so here's a, here's an inquiry.

I've described to you, um, this tapping in, this prompting the muse, And where is it coming from? It's just this kind of global, uh, you know, macro brain. Where is this coming from? The Jung's, uh, you know, subconscious, um, and I'm [01:05:00] realizing, you know, AI and ChatGPT is doing that. In the digital world, it's scraping the internet for all of the input that has gotten from everywhere.

And it's pretty much the same thing, except it's in a digital form. So I asked chat GPT,

how, what is the intersection and how do these two areas relate specifically the channeled writing that I'm doing? And AI, LLM inquiries and prompts, how do they, how do they intersect? The answer was really clear. It defined each of them very clearly. So it would, it let me know it knew what I was asking the two things.

And the next line was, is they have no intersection and said, okay, [01:06:00] that's interesting. My next prompt was in a fictional world. If they did intersect, what would that look like? And it spewed out this whole really, really fascinating premise of how they intersect. Um, and just to tell the story really briefly, what I did in the next 45 minutes was.

A sequence of prompts where I said, okay, take that premise and turn it into a story with characters and it did that in the next, you know, 30 seconds I had the story and then I started tweaking the story. So, okay, add, um, a conflict between these two characters. Simple prompts like that, uh, you know, because I'm, you know, Uh, trained, uh, screenwriter and filmmaker, I, I know the hero's [01:07:00] journey, I know all those things, and I know what you need to make a good story, right?

So, in the 45 minutes, it spewed out a whole feature screenplay outline, with some dialogue, with the characters where they were dialoguing, but pretty much every beat, every, every scene, for the whole 120 page, or two hour movie. And a sequel in 45 minutes. So that was another playful prompting the muse experience that I had around kind of this meta question that you, uh, are asking.

[01:07:43] ck: Yeah. Thank you for that. Um, again, so many things to ask. Let's see where to begin. So here's one metaphor that a lot of people say chat GPT as it is today, 2024, right? [01:08:00] What is it? October 18, 2020. This is a chat GPT is a incompetent graduate student as it is right now. Also, what that means is, um, the person needs to be the director directing, you know, this very competent or incompetent graduate student.

If you know how to direct it well, it's gonna, you know, do amazing, beautiful, miraculous, magical things. But if you Ask, you know, very generic question. It's going to spit out some very generic answers. That sounds like cliches basically. Right. So what I'm getting from you is giving your background in filmmaking, storytelling, um, you know, your understanding of spirituality and channeling and plant medicine and sound healing and neuroscience and all these things you're able to very quickly, um, direct as incompetent graduate students to do some amazing things in 45 [01:09:00] minutes.

Um, so awesome, happy for you, happy for all of us, those that, those of us that's using chat GPT now, not as a replacement of thinking, but rather as an, as an augmentation as a way to quickly get, you know, Some validation, some, some, some, um, prototypes of whatever that is that we wanted to do. I'm curious for you, you know, in terms of quality of ideas, right?

How do you continue to hone that muscle so, um, so that, so the quality of your stories or the songs or the, or the spiritual teachings continue to elevate? you know, over time with this superpower that you have called JGPT or some other, you know,

[01:09:50] David: No,

great question. I want to just. Let's say one little piece before I answer that question, which is the term prompting the [01:10:00] muse goes back to your first question about using plant medicine and what I said about intention. So it is very similar when you are beginning a journey to have a clear intention rather than getting a graduate student, blah, blah, blah, from your plant medicine journey.

If you have the right prompt and the right intention, you will. Absolutely have a much more significant, meaningful experience. Something that you'll be able to come out of it knowing that your intention is fulfilled, or at least it's on its way. So, the same thing with ChatGPT. If you learn how to prompt, uh, and, you know, there's this prompt engineering now, job description.

Mostly for engineers. I don't believe there's been such a [01:11:00] significant focus on it for, let's just call it creativity and artistic thing. There's all these programs that are making songs or images or videos. I mean, it's amazing technically, but to. Create something that has the quality that you're asking about has to do with the prompting and also the ongoing prompting because you have to be back and forth with an analysis and go into the logical Cognitive critical mind get it kind of the circle between the right and left hemispheres.

If you want to use that analogy of the brain, the ability to bring it to a larger audience than say, just the breath work [01:12:00] or just the dream circle where it's kind of enclosed and there's no editing whatsoever, but to bring it out to have an impact in the larger community and globally. My experience is that it needs to have the integration with the cognitive and the four dimensional time space.

And the AB testing and all the things, because I'm a research scientist as well. So I understand what it means to have significance in your research, uh, you know, power, and if you don't get that, you know, people are not going to buy into it from the scientific and educational world, because that's the world I work in as well.

So the word quality. We have to really define what is quality. From my work, quality means that we have, um, specific educational or healthcare [01:13:00] outcomes that are measurable. That shows quality. We can also show quality from a business standpoint from profit margins. How well is your company doing? You know, at the end of the year, are you, are you profitable?

That's another quality thing. You could get good reviews of your artistic creations, your books, your music, your paintings, or sales of those. That's maybe measuring quality. The other is the quality that I hold for myself of the experience. Do I feel on point? Am I in the zone? Am I happy? Am I free? Am I a choice?

Those are the qualities that I look for personally. Uh, and I spread that around to my loved ones, my family, and my friends. Am I contributing to their lives in the same way? And the greater community, [01:14:00] quality. So, when you ask about quality, those are what comes to mind.

[01:14:05] ck: Yeah. Thank you for that. I, I, I love the, the introspection. How do I feel about it? I don't, but as well as the impact it has on whoever you share with, right. Your loved ones, you know, the, the men's group or the, the dream circles, you know, how do they respond? And as well as, you know, some other metrics like money or, you know, so on, so on.

Right. So there's not one way to measure, um, quality per se. However, and I'm going to say this in a way, let's see how, um, what I'm trying to articulate here is, you know, what's, what's beautiful, right? Beauty is not a beholder. So quality is the same thing, right? What's quality? Well, it depends on who you ask.

So I think for me anyway. [01:15:00] the way I'm thinking about it, bring it back to the through line of what we're talking about. I'm getting some ideas from who knows where, right? I'm not going to be so attached to understanding exact location, but the way I'm visualizing is here's the light coming my way and I'm the prism, right?

The crystal, right? And it's going to refract out of me, um, based on my own, um, studies. I write my own understanding of things and therefore whatever comes out of it is my self expression through my own, you know, understanding of things, interpretation of things. And that's the artistry that's unique only with CK Lin and no one else in the world ever, ever.

And same thing with Davis, uh, you know, sun and shine. Right. So, so chatty BT in many ways helps me refine, um, this signal, uh, with its [01:16:00] language capabilities, logic capabilities, image capabilities. And then how can I continue to hone this taste, this aesthetics, as Ira Glass would say, right, you know, this taste that we have, and then to continue to elevate towards this, this, this convergence of this thing that I'm trying to express.

And I think that's what I'm trying to get at, you know, as I'm asking that question.

[01:16:27] David: Yeah. And I'll be really specific when I get an image from one of the breathing messages that feels kind of like it didn't really get to the core of what I got out of it. I will sometimes take a section of the, of it and repeat it and say, emphasize this part. Uh, and that's one way that I have been working with Chet GPT and, and the DALI image generation to kind of, Not be too critical, [01:17:00] uh, and, and my logical mind, but more like continue with the, the essence of the original message, but like push it a little harder in one way or another.

Um, so that's. Uh, uh, one answer to make better quality, as it were with the image. That's one of the methods that I've experimented with. It's not a right or wrong or, oh, I, I broke the boundary. There's no rules. I'm just saying. Okay. So that's one way I've done it. I described as well, you know, pushing to, uh, create something that has never been created before.

'cause I said, okay, in a fictional world, I, I, I give it a prompt to say, this isn't about reality. Okay, let, let's, let's get outside of what other people have imagined or, or imagined. Written or let's just see what, what could happen because I don't know. I, it's kind of a black box, you know, nobody really knows [01:18:00] how did that happen?

It got little pieces of this and that, and I put it together in 30 seconds and boom, it's there. I don't think even the people who've written the code understand all of how it works, but nonetheless, who wrote the code up here, who wrote the code out there? I mean, does it really matter? And I'm. I'm not so, uh, concerned about the mechanisms as, as the flow, uh, and, and then the question of quality.

As a entrepreneur, part of the flow of being a business owner is that it's financially viable and to be financially viable means that the flow has to, um, first of all, solve some problem that people are willing to pay for. I mean, that's kind of usually the formula. Uh, even if it's like making a movie for entertainment, they're bored.

They wanna see something that's interesting, you [01:19:00] know? And so you make a movie that just blows people away and, and I mean, even there and, and then you, if, if you need to, you, you put a list actors in it and, and they cost a lot of money to put there, but then people go see it because of that. So you're solving the problem about getting, you know, seats in the, in, in the theater or, or clicks on the, you know, Netflix and, and in any case.

The quality, uh, will depend then, uh, partly on, on your intentions, back to your intentions. Is it to experiment and to try to create something nobody's ever seen before? Is it to create a, a product or service that is so functional that it's, it's perfect for everybody and it makes a bunch of money and becomes a unicorn company?

You know, is that, is that quality? Yes, I mean it depends on the definition of quality, back to that. And, and, and [01:20:00] You know, so going back to ChatGPT, I think you have to tell ChatGPT what kind of quality you're looking for. You have to define it in your prompt.

[01:20:10] ck: Yeah. Thank you for that. Actually, that's very helpful. Cause um, there's a, there's a specific term in, in art. Ah, avant garde, right? There's certain like art artists, they just wanted to make art for art's sake. They wanted to make something that's totally different. And you know, they don't care about the commercial viability.

And then there are those artists that just, you know, they don't care or it's been done a thousand times. They just wanted to, you know,

[01:20:43] David: Commercial. It's commercial.

[01:20:44] ck: to the max level and either way it's fine. But, but the, the, the key point that we're talking about here is what is your primary intention really like tell the truth about it.

And then, and then when you tell the truth about it to yourself, then you can tell the truth about it to [01:21:00] HHAPT and they can. do his job, help you think about ideas, you know, broaden your perspective, perhaps ones that you've never seen, and then help you narrow it down to the signal that you're really trying to get at.

[01:21:13] David: Perfect. Yeah. That summarizes it really well. Yeah.

[01:21:20] ck: Well, man, I mean, I can talk to you forever and ever. Um,

[01:21:23] David: We got so many other things we could go for. I mean, I'll just put a bookmark for another,

[01:21:28] ck: yeah,

[01:21:29] David: one that we could do. Um, this whole world that, uh, of my sound design and, and being an author of sound design and, uh, teaching around the world for film and games, uh, and creating a new paradigm called sound spheres that, uh, I published several years ago that people are using as a.

Not just a concept, but an experience of sound in the world and used for any number of things, uh, has, [01:22:00] has now expanded into this, uh, breathing message, uh, Where I'm just basically taking a 4D model of the sound spheres, which is three, three spatial in one time into a fifth dimension, which is what we've been talking about.

Where is this coming from? So I, I've created what's called a sound torus, T O R U S, and I'm intending to use this as a model. As a model for teaching what it is that we've been talking about. And this sound torus is a visual model of being able to penetrate into what I'm calling non local information.

Which is what we do with plant medicine and what we do in meditation. And this is what I'm developing to do with sound. So we can tap into

[01:22:51] ck: So

[01:22:52] David: information.

[01:22:52] ck: let me make sure I understand what you're saying using this sound tours. You're able to use sound to elicit, [01:23:00] invoke, provoke, invoke,

[01:23:02] David: Yeah,

[01:23:03] ck: non, uh, local experience. Is that what you're saying?

[01:23:07] David: that's right.

[01:23:08] ck: That's fascinating.

[01:23:10] David: That's for another talk. So we'll tune in for our next

[01:23:16] ck: There you go. Cliffhanger. What a, what a, what a, what a tease, David. What a

[01:23:22] David: all of you. And I'm working with UC San Diego, Arthur C. Clark Center for Human Imagination on developing this project.

[01:23:32] ck: Amazing. Well, David, let me just take a moment to really acknowledge you. I really appreciate, you know, your generosity in sharing your life. You live a really full life. Um, sharing all, I mean, all aspects of it. I know that you had no idea what we're going to talk about.

[01:23:51] David: was

[01:23:51] ck: didn't either, you know, but we followed the muse and here we are.

And, um, You know,

[01:23:58] David: me. Thank you for that. [01:24:00] You prompted my muse.

[01:24:02] ck: what a, what a good journey that we've been on. I actually have a much deeper, um, appreciation and understanding of the creative process and also how I can use, you know, AI tools like Chachapiti to help me. really hone my intention even more because you know, I don't know if you can tell already this podcast really is about intentional living, intentional thinking, being speaking, you know, emotionality, all of it.

So thank you for helping me and the rest of my audience, you know, be more intentional in life.

[01:24:36] David: Very cool. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for prompting me and sharing this experience. Uh, you know, I think I prompted you as well.