188 Terry Tillman: Playing the Long Game: Cultivating Legacy Through Lifelong Transformation

[00:00:00] ck: Our guest today, he calls himself a recovered businessman. He is a former light spring trainer is a member of the transformational leadership council.

[00:00:12] ck: He, uh, has been a trainer with the reach over 200, 000 people across 94 countries. Thank you, Terry, for being here.

[00:00:21] Terry: Certainly,

[00:00:22] ck: so, so Terry, you've been dedicating your life to service, spiritual exploration, personal growth. One of the question I want to ask you right off the bat is you call yourself a recovered businessman.

[00:00:35] ck: Can you share a little bit more about how you make that shift from somebody who lived a fast paced, high power, all about achievement type of lifestyle to, you know, something a little bit, you know, in the pursuit of joy and curiosity and service, how did you make that shift?

[00:00:53] Terry: Well, that kind of summarizes how did I make it?

[00:00:55] Terry: I wouldn't say gracefully or easily, but I did it. [00:01:00] Yeah, I had my grandfather and father were civic leaders, businessmen, you'd say successful by objective standards.

[00:01:08] Terry: And

[00:01:09] Terry: I was the only male, last male in my family and kind of expected to follow their leadership, you know, go into business. So right out of college, I did, I, I started an entrepreneur type a workaholic, six different businesses, grew them, had the trappings of the success and felt miserable.

[00:01:30] Terry: a And I thought, what's wrong? I mean, I was a happy kid and I'm not happy now and I'm doing everything I thought I was supposed to do. And this doesn't have it for me. And, um, uh, try to shorten the story, but it's part of it because people have told me they see parallels in my story to theirs. I made it through and the, the high end clients I often work with are looking for, how do I get out or how do I [00:02:00] change this?

[00:02:00] Terry: Or how do I, you know, how can I have some more joy? Anyway, a salesman that called on me once a week, uh, for my display advertising manager, uh, just ads in the local newspaper would come into my office and we'd all business, we'd organize the next campaign or next ad is or whatever. And one day he came in just bouncing off the walls and, you know, Terry, I, I did this thing, you gotta do it.

[00:02:25] Terry: You go, man. You know, I said, Charlie, sit down. We got work to do. And I said, Terry, you gotta do this. And, you know, this went on for a good. Six, eight months and finally, Charlie came in one day with a woman and he said, Terry, this is the president of the Lifespring Foundation. She'd like to invite you to dinner.

[00:02:46] Terry: So

[00:02:46] Terry: that flattered me. I went to dinner. We had a nice time. I invited me up to to our house afterwards for after dinner drinks. And she said, I want to offer you a scholarship to our, our training and flattered me once again. And I [00:03:00] didn't know how to say no back then. So I took a, what was a life spring training.

[00:03:04] Terry: Now this is 1976 experiential learning, large group experiential. Learning, self development, personal growth. I had never been exposed to any of that. And I had a really good experience. Uh, you know, I, I wouldn't say it was life changing yet, but it was like, this is good and I wasn't, they, they had a series of seminars and I wasn't going to take their next seminar, but my wife decided she wanted to, and so I signed up and that changed my life.

[00:03:39] Terry: Because I had experience that I could not explain. I was reading people's minds. I was seeing through solid objects. I found a missing person. I found a woman's birth mother. She had been looking for, for about 12 years without success. This all happened in a few days. And it was just, and I couldn't deny it.

[00:03:59] Terry: It was my [00:04:00] experience, but you know, I'm a left brain, you know, straight A student having these mystical experiences. And, um, so I got involved with Lifespring as a volunteer. Um, they ended up recruiting me and I ended up going to work for them. Closing all my companies and going to work for them for less money than my mortgage payment.

[00:04:24] Terry: And um, it was completely irrational made no sense at all. Uh, That was 1977 and it's the best choice i've ever made in my life.

[00:04:34] ck: Okay, paul. Yeah, if you don't mind Yeah, you just went from oh, I ran six companies. I did a seminar then I have all these all of a sudden these like super human Powers. That's unexplainable, logically, scientifically.

[00:04:51] ck: And then I quit my job. I worked for them and that was that, right? So that

[00:04:55] ck: was like a big, you know, huge story points. [00:05:00] So, so

[00:05:02] ck: like zoom back into those, uh, powerful moments or super human powers that aren't, that's unexplainable. What was it like for you to experience that first time? And how did you, what was going through your head?

[00:05:15] ck: When you started to realizing that you could do things or that. Um, wasn't explainable by a rational scientific.

[00:05:23] Terry: Yeah. Yeah. Um, what was it like? I mean, this is a lot of years ago. Um, it's like my heart opened up. I, I, you know, the, the world I lived in was very mental and, um, It's most of the people I was around the business people.

[00:05:42] Terry: It was and all of a sudden, it's like I discovered a part of my consciousness that had been dormant, you know, and it was very expansive and it was a lot more, um, attractive to me and desirable than living up in my brain, then, you know, being, you know, Logical and rational and [00:06:00] strategic and, uh, you know, negotiating and looking at objective results.

[00:06:06] Terry: And I started having subjective inner, inner experiences that were a lot more desirable to me. And, but that's, and I knew that, okay, I got to pursue this. That said, uh, it wasn't all easy. Uh, you know, the community, I, I was, uh, maybe say a big fish in a small pond. I was in Eugene, Oregon. My businesses were in Oregon, Idaho and Washington.

[00:06:30] Terry: And I was starting to get become prominent. You know, I was president of the Rotary Club, you know, I was doing civic service and stuff. And so to leave that wasn't easy, but I knew I needed to, you know, it was like you call it say a call. I had a call that I knew that That I couldn't not do it. And yet, um, my family, my, my, uh, business associates, I had a partner in one of the businesses that all of them were [00:07:00] thinking I had, you know, maybe you need a break, Terry, you know, I mean, you're throwing away your life.

[00:07:06] Terry: Uh, are you sure you really want to do this? Are you, you know, so there, you know, it was, um, anybody who's done this would, would sell something similar. Uh, yeah. I, I started writing a book about 10 years ago called The Call, and I interviewed 74 people who are living lives of purpose, meaning, contribution.

[00:07:28] Terry: And I, you know, did you receive a call? Tell me the story. What were the challenges? Uh, how did you overcome them? You know, and I heard something similar in every case and often they would say what I just said. I couldn't not do it. Uh, I had, uh, uh, I had a lot of resistance in my community, uh, people judging me, uh, you know, And how did you, how do you overcome that?

[00:07:54] Terry: I don't have a magic answer or the pill or something. It's just, you just do it. [00:08:00]

[00:08:00] ck: You just surrender. That

[00:08:02] Speaker 2: was

[00:08:03] ck: the common theme you heard after.

[00:08:06] Terry: There would be a good word. You let go of it. You just. For me, it was a process of coming present. Like right now, this is, this is, I can't not do it right now. I got to do this right now.

[00:08:21] Terry: I got to close this business right now. I got to make, you know, the call in that direction. And it was, you know, a whole lot of left foot, right foot. Um, and I would have to say part of me, I don't know if I went unconscious, it's like, I put my conscious mind on hold. Um, because it made no sense, you know, I made it was not rational, made no sense, but it's like some part of me, I got to do it and I'm willing.

[00:08:50] ck: So, so quick question there, right? I mean, by the way, I appreciate the clarity of your articulation, because many [00:09:00] of the people who are listening to this, the noble warrior podcast, who are going through that transition. Who may be very accomplished in the material business world Who are making a shift into something that's a little bit more internal and that's more focusing on joy, less about quote unquote accomplishment More about service, right?

[00:09:20] ck: The greater process, compassion, like all the things you mentioned And they're facing one, the internal resistance What is this? It doesn't make any sense rationally, right? And also the external resistance, the wife, the business partner, you know, the friends questioning their sanity, like, hey, you know, maybe you just need a vacation,

[00:09:44] ck: you know,

[00:09:44] ck: don't sell your stuff yet,

[00:09:46] ck: or you don't need to move all the way to, you know, So away from your, uh, existing

[00:09:52] ck: business community, blah, blah, blah, it's like all these things it's questioning them.

[00:09:56] ck: So

[00:09:57] ck: everything that you talked about is very poignant to, [00:10:00] you know, this podcast. So one, the follow up question I wanted to ask you is, is the faith because, you know, faith is believing something, not having clear evidence yet, right? So how did you, you, as well as the 74 people in the interview, navigate? The faith component faith in themselves, faith on the path, faith in the unknown, faith in trusting the call, you know, any insight there

[00:10:32] Terry: at the time.

[00:10:33] Terry: I don't believe I was aware that it was faith looking back. Yeah, but it was that part was unconscious. I had, um, this is really hard to do alone. And I would say even a little stupid to try to do this kind of change alone. And I didn't know it that I had none of the people in my, my business community. I was around and associates and such.[00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Terry: I didn't feel like I could talk with them about it. This is too far away from the world we lived in, but I did meet a couple of people in this new world. The, the, you know, human potential movement who saw something in me I didn't see in myself yet and who encouraged me and for whatever reason I, I, uh, listened to them.

[00:11:22] Terry: I trusted them like, like I was, um, I got very intrigued with this life spring training. And, uh, so I started enrolling people in it. the mailman, you know, the grocery store clerk, or, I mean, I talked to a lot of people. I was someone pretty enthusiastic. And, and I, but I put, and so I helped build the first one of these seminars in Eugene, Oregon.

[00:11:48] Terry: And I bet I put 60 percent of the people in the training that were there. And, and then I was a volunteer assistant and the trainer came. It was one of the people who saw something in me I didn't see. [00:12:00] And he's become a good friend. I'm forever indebted to him. I mean, but He came back about the third day of the training, hand me an envelope and he said, here, use this and go talk to Hanley.

[00:12:10] Terry: And I said, who's Hanley? Now this is where faith probably came in that I didn't call faith. I said, who's Hanley? And he said, he's the president of Lifespring. I said, why should I talk to him? He said, talk to him about working for us. And I said, Russ, I don't need a job. I got, I got a job, you know, and my company's bigger than Lifespring.

[00:12:29] Terry: That's, I don't, something inside of me said, you know, I haven't had a vacation in 10 years. You know, their headquarters were down in, uh, San Rafael near San Francisco. I love San Francisco. I thought, well, I'll take a few days and call it a holiday. So I flew down to San Francisco. I met with Hanley. That story I won't go into unless you want it, but it was unlike anything I've ever heard, seen, experienced.

[00:12:54] ck: I mean, with that statement, you have to go into it now. What [00:13:00] is the

[00:13:01] Terry: thing is unreasonable, but I'm thinking I'll just get a break here. You know, that's what I'm telling myself. But some part of me was really, you know, like it was already kind of in, like, maybe there's something good here. Anyway, I flew down there, I'm on the plane.

[00:13:18] Terry: And one of the things that I learned in life spring, they call it a workshop, but it's a, it's a technique for getting in on alpha state. And it's a, it's the best learning state and creative and stuff. And so, and I was an insomniac, I had bleeding ulcers. I was worried, uh, and this technique for the first time in my life, like in 10 years, I started to relax and I was going, I was sleeping at night.

[00:13:41] Terry: So I'm sitting on the plane. I go into this alpha state. Someone taps me on the shoulder and, uh, he said, hi, my name's John. What's yours? And I said, Terry. And he, he said, I saw you sitting up here. Are you by any chance involved with Lifespring ? I'd never met the guy. And I, he, [00:14:00] I said, well, not, I'd taken their training.

[00:14:03] Terry: And he said, well, are, where are you? Where are you going? And I said, down to San Francisco. That's where the flight was going. And he said, are you gonna San Rafael? And I said, yeah. And he said, so am I. He said, are you by any chance going to talk to Hanley? He said, so am I. So he was somebody else going down to meet.

[00:14:19] Terry: So, you know, it's like, how did that happen? How did he, why did he pick me out of the hundred people on the plane, on the flight?

[00:14:26] Terry: And

[00:14:27] Terry: how did he know? And, you know, so this kind of mystery and intrigue was starting to go on. And so, you know, I said, well, I got to rent a car. I can drive you up to San Rafael.

[00:14:37] Terry: And he said, no, I got one too. Thank you. John Webb, I saw him once more, I think in my life after then he ended up going to work for Lifespring and so did I, you know, but I walked in into the Lifespring office and they were having an all company meeting at that time. They had like 12 cities active and had all their city directors and trainers and key people.

[00:14:59] Terry: [00:15:00] And so I walk in the door and the receptionist, you know, 10 feet in front of me said, uh, uh, she said, uh, Can I help you? And I said, I'm here to meet with handling. She said, Oh, are you Terry Tillman? Oh, we've been looking forward to meeting you. I mean, it was a very warm greeting. I'm thinking, how the hell do you know who I am?

[00:15:18] Terry: You know, it's like, and she said, she said, John's running a little bit over right now. He's conducting a meeting and the entire office is full. Um, but let me find you a place you can sit down and wait till he's finished. So she leaves you down the hall. Okay. We go into a room with no windows and, and it's the storage room.

[00:15:40] Terry: It's a supply room. There's a Xerox machine shelves full of office supplies and training equipment and all this, and she found a folding chair and puts it in the middle. And I sit down there and I wait. And I wait and I wait, you know, it's like 20, 30 minutes and I stick my head out the door. There's no one in the hall.

[00:15:58] Terry: I go back, I sit down some [00:16:00] more. I go into my, you know, this alpha state again, kind of like meditating and I wait some more and I don't know, God, maybe 50, 60 minutes went by. Finally, the door opens up. This guy sticks his head in the door, and he says, uh, so you're Tillman. Uh, you have issues with your father.

[00:16:18] Terry: Uh, you're, you're popular in your community. You've got money, but you feel broke. Uh, you got a beautiful wife and you don't appreciate her very much as much as she deserves. And it just went down, bam, bam, bam, leaving me. And then he said, did I miss anything? And I'm kind of stunned. And I said, well, That was pretty complete.

[00:16:36] Terry: And he said, okay, good. Thanks. He turns and starts to walk away. He takes his head back in the door and said, Oh, by the way, I'm John Hanley. Nice to meet you. And he turns and he walks away. That was my interview with Hanley. And I'm thinking, I came all the way down here for that. What the, what was that about?

[00:16:57] Terry: And so I, I, I, I [00:17:00] leave, I'm going to, okay, I'm going to fly back home. And as I'm leaving the guy that the Lifespring trainer who gave me the tickets, a guy named Russ Bishop was standing in the hall and he said, well, how was your meeting with Hanley? And I told him and Russ just laughed and he said, Yep, that's Hanley.

[00:17:16] Terry: You know, and I said, what was that about? And he said, I don't know. You'll find out. So, I went back home. I went to work and like, you Maybe two, three weeks later, I get a phone call and the guy said, uh, uh, Tillman, this is John. I said, oh yeah, John, who? And he said, John Hanley. When do you want to start? And I said, start what?

[00:17:33] Terry: Start working for us. I mean, this is crazy to me. And he said, I'll fly around to our cities. You can meet our city directors and decide which city you want to start in. And I think you start what, you know, that was about it. And so I thought, well, why not? So I flew around. I wasn't interested in the East Coast.

[00:17:56] Terry: So I went to San Diego, San Francisco, Los Angeles, [00:18:00] Seattle, Vancouver. Long story short, I ended up, that's when I decided I'm going to do this. And I closed my companies. I didn't sell them. I closed them. I had one of them was real estate development construction. So I had a lot of property. It took me another 10 years to sell everything, but basically I stopped doing business and I moved to Seattle, Washington, and the city director there ended up becoming one of my best friends, one of my best mentors.

[00:18:29] Terry: Uh,

[00:18:30] Speaker 3: and I,

[00:18:30] Speaker 2: I found out that I, I could do this. Like the first week I was in. Seattle, they had me in front of a, a group doing a three hour seminar and no, no training or anything. I could just do it. And I've been doing it ever since, you know. A lot more detail to it, but

[00:18:51] ck: yeah, yeah. What a story, man. Uh, thank you for sharing that was entertaining to say the least,

[00:18:59] ck: [00:19:00] but,

[00:19:00] ck: uh, but incredible, uh, obviously, because, you know, you're Use words like life changing and best friends and all of these things, right?

[00:19:09] ck: You without a without a doubt this you used you said it this was one of the best decisions that you have made In hindsight, maybe not at the moment, but in hindsight, it was that was you know, the thing that shaped your life, right? So the question I have for you is I think you're very fortunate that you essentially Tap into flow right away, right?

[00:19:32] ck: You just kind of like the Dallas concept a little bit You You, you tap into the way the DAO right away, you know, hit the ground running, you know, you knew you could do this was effortless effort, uh, were, were you conscious about sort of the metrics, you know, so to speak of like, this is, this is, I'm trusting this and these are all positive signs, the synchronicity, the positive signs that I am doing the right thing, consciously or [00:20:00] unconsciously.

[00:20:01] Terry: I would say semi conscious. It's more like I entered a different consciousness. You know, I mean, it really was a transformation. It's, I was aware of the old me, but the old me wasn't the real me. And it's like I had stepped into who I essentially was and what there was a dichotomy. It's like, you know, it was, it wasn't like that, but it was, I knew I had to lean this way and see where it went.

[00:20:30] Terry: And, um, it, and as long as I did that, these wonderful things kept happening and I was enjoying it, you know, like the first seminar I did. I mean, the first Kara Barker was the city director who is also probably the most versatile and talented trainer facilitators. She's now a Jungian psychologist, but she was brilliant.

[00:20:56] Terry: And she took me under her wing and she was one who [00:21:00] saw something in me. I didn't see. And so first week I'm there, she's conducting one of their advanced seminars. And she said, come in and do this with me. And I said, I don't know how to do this. I mean, I've just been a student. And she said, well, sit up in front with me and let's see what you do.

[00:21:15] Terry: And I said, okay. And so, you know, she's working, we would do experiential exercises, and then there'd be a, we called it processing, but afterwards, you know, you'd work with the people. And she would do these, she would see things like, how do you know that? I'd wonder, how do you know that? And during a break, I said, how do you know that?

[00:21:33] Terry: How did you know that this person was that way, or that was the right question, or how'd you know? And she said, well, you take the next person, you do it. And I said, I don't know how to do it. She said, just do it. And I said, well, do what? And she said, well, Look in you, not at them. What do you see in you? And I say, wait,

[00:21:53] ck: can you pause?

[00:21:53] ck: I don't understand that. Say that again.

[00:21:55] Terry: This is Kara Barker. Who's the trainer who's ended up training [00:22:00] me initially. And we're in front of the room in a seminar, advanced seminar. And she, I'm just sitting there. Feeling dumb, you know, uh, but anyway, she said, you take the next person. I said, take, do what? And you know, so she said, well,

[00:22:15] Terry: you know,

[00:22:15] Terry: I said, I don't know what to do.

[00:22:16] Terry: And she said, well, figure it out, look inside of you and it'll tell you what to do. Ah, you know, whatever you see out there, if you didn't have it in you, you wouldn't see it, you wouldn't know it. Look in here, not out there. That was one of the first big lessons. And so it's my, she said, you work with this guy.

[00:22:34] Terry: So I looked inside and something showed up and I asked a question and I could just do it.

[00:22:42] ck: Now. So, so Terry, here's the question were you already pretty self aware so you could see the different aspects of yourself and sense it and understand it?

[00:22:53] ck: Or were you still very logical and data driven?

[00:22:58] Terry: Another good question. [00:23:00] I, at the time, no, I wouldn't, I wasn't. But if I look back on my life, like, um, I had a really wonderful mother. Who was open to new stuff, and she told me one time about a book, there was a best selling book, and this is probably in the fifties, called, uh, I don't remember the whole title, but it was about Bridie Murphy.

[00:23:26] Terry: Uh, Bridie Murphy was working with a psychiatrist who regressed her back to a past life. Now, they didn't Use the word past life. They might have thought it was ancestral or something. And the story was about this girl, as I remember, late teenage, who was recalling experiences in Ireland. And she had never been out of the United States or the city she was in.

[00:23:50] Terry: And, uh, the psychiatrist, you know, she was describing events and things in from history, you know, like a hundred years previously, the [00:24:00] psychiatrist went back to see if there was any truth in what the girl was recalling. Well, there was, it was like a gravestone with a proper date on it. And, you know, names of people and scenes and house descriptions and stuff.

[00:24:12] Terry: And so, you know, it was recalling a past life. So my mom told me about this and, and me and my best friend decided it was hypnotic past regression, past life regression. So my mom, my best friend and I decided, well, let's see if we can hypnotize each other.

[00:24:30] ck: How old were you? Eight, maybe. Wow, this is amazing.

[00:24:37] Terry: On the watch chain, you know, I'd lie down and Jack would twirl it above my eyes. You're going deeper and deeper.

[00:24:47] Terry: And, you know, I'd close my eyes. And then he, and we pretended like we were doing, Bridey Murphy, you know, and we, we thought we were making stuff up and then I'd do it with Jack. You know, you're going deeper and deeper and, you know, and then [00:25:00] we started a few of our friends in the neighborhood. And then, and then some of the parents heard we were doing this and, and stopped us, you know, like this freaked them.

[00:25:10] Terry: So fast forward, I'm in fourth grade. How old's that? 10 years old. And we're studying the continents. And so we had to go in these days, there's no internet. It was, you go, go to the encyclopedia, look it up. Take notes. So we were, we had to go, uh, pick a continent and come back and report on it. So the continent I picked was Atlantis.

[00:25:35] Terry: Have you heard of the Lost Continent of Atlantis? So I write up a report on it, I didn't know where I found information, but it was, you know, it was hocus pocus, woo woo, nobody believed there was really Atlantis. So I did my report on Atlantis and the teacher said, where'd you get that nonsense? Uh, you know, so then looking back, I [00:26:00] realized I had quite a few experiences like this where my, my awareness, my interest, my curiosity was into this tale of the bell curve, more mystical stuff.

[00:26:13] Terry: And you know, then I got into Stanford and, uh, The first day after registering for classes, I walked out of the registration hall and there's all these extracurricular booths, you know, the band, the volunteer fireman, the, the, uh, newspaper, uh, and, and I made a beeline right for a booth that was Zen Buddhism and they had materials and I grabbed them and then I was invited to dinner, uh, One of the professors had been a professor at the University of Oregon in Eugene, where I grew up, and his son was a good friend of mine.

[00:26:46] Terry: And so his son was, got into Stanford too, and invited me to dinner at their house. It was my first, first day of college. So I go to Professor Wright's house for dinner and he says, well, how did you like your first day at Stanford? I [00:27:00] said, oh, this is going to be great. There's all this stuff and this Zen Buddhism and then, and he said, oh, don't get into that, Terry.

[00:27:06] Terry: I said, that'll get on your record and you'll never get a job. I can recount. other experiences where my nature was, wanted to go metaphysical and mystical. And yet the adults were, you know, uh, I, I remember my imaginary playmates when I was a kid playing out in the garden and I heard the adults say, let me through, he thinks he sees things.

[00:27:32] Terry: So the adults, all these steps along the way were communicating the message, this isn't okay.

[00:27:38] Terry: But looking back, this was more my nature and somehow that began to surface. And I let that direct me instead of this, you know, the head.

[00:27:49] ck: A few friends of mine were discussing about. educational initiatives. He is in his 30s. I'm in my 40s. You know, they have [00:28:00] four kids.

[00:28:00] ck: We're discussing how they can, you know, use some of the resources they now accumulated to, you know, uh, revitalize, rethink our education system. You know, let's start off with their kids as guinea pigs, so to speak, and then see what we can learn. And then hopefully to find something that we can do that we can.

[00:28:21] ck: You know, extrapolate that and share with some people in their, in, in, in our lives basically, right? So that's kind of the whole premise of that whole discussion, which led me to, you know, some basic skills that I believe that I want my kids to learn.

[00:28:38] ck: Uh, you're a father, you're a grandfather. And you are a student and teacher of transformation. trainings, knowing what you know today at 81 years old, right?

[00:28:52] Terry: 82 now.

[00:28:53] ck: Oh, congratulations. 82, excuse me.

[00:28:56] ck: I would have never known,

[00:28:57] ck: right? So you look amazing. [00:29:00] So at 82, knowing what you know today as an, as an elder, right?

[00:29:03] ck: In, in, in age and experience, what would you say some of the top skills that you wish that would talk in our school system to help kids grow?

[00:29:18] Terry: Um, I don't know who your audience is, but I'm going to speak. It doesn't matter. So if this is a business community I'm talking to and most of my work in subsequent years, maybe we'll talk about that.

[00:29:32] Terry: It's got an end. I got a name for business. Leadership trainings and businesses. Mm-Hmm. , this metaphysical aspect is what's in why I can do what I've done. Like, like I, I am, I would say I'm at the top of my field in leadership training, but I didn't do it the way most people do it. And I wouldn't have been able to do it or get the results I got had I not gotten into this, this kind of work.

[00:29:59] Terry: [00:30:00] So what were the skills? Um, if I were teaching kids? Mm-Hmm. .

[00:30:05] ck: You have grandkids, right? So what kind of skills?

[00:30:08] Terry: I have a nine year old son. I have a granddaughter who's 22.

[00:30:18] Terry: I would teach them, uh, how to do, how to get into the alpha state, the best possible learning state. And I, if it's, and I teach this, I've been teaching meditation with my business clients for almost 40 years, but I couldn't call it meditation. They, they, it wasn't acceptable 20 years ago. You know, they probably wouldn't let me in the door.

[00:30:40] Terry: So I call it a stress reduction technique. If I were teaching it to kids, I, I, a learning technique. But it's the alpha state at least or deeper, but it's the best possible learning state. And if I would have learned that, I mean, it's the, you know, it's why young kids pick up things so quick. [00:31:00] They can go on that.

[00:31:01] Terry: I mean, I watched my son and my God, he learns fast and easily. And I don't want to interrupt that, how he already knows how to do it innately. You know, as we grow and learn and start mentalizing, get more, uh, brain mind, Our mind is bigger than what's between our skull and and we start to lose and I could go into the theory and what happened, but we, you know, so if I were teaching kids, that's one of the first things.

[00:31:28] Terry: The other thing I teach kids. I would teach them about karma because if you understand karma, you make very different and more wise choices. Uh, you know, the idea that, you know, it could be Newtonian physics. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. You know, it's the balancing, it's choice and consequence.

[00:31:50] Terry: You know, your every choice you make puts in motion an energy that's going to return to you. And so you want the return to be good, positive, [00:32:00] enjoyable, not negative. So if you understood that, if kids understood that, they would make different, the world would be a different place. And you got to start with the children, you know, if we wouldn't be at war.

[00:32:13] Terry: Why? Because it would only hurt me. I don't, I'm selfish. I don't want to hurt myself. You know, if I really understood karma, you know, if I hurt someone else, it's going to come back on me in some way. I don't want now. This is, you know, nobody in my schooling. And I went to Stanford, supposedly one of the best schools in the world.

[00:32:37] Terry: I didn't learn what would, what would happen. been most useful to me.

[00:32:43] Terry: You know, I would, I would teach more of the personal skills. Now, anybody can learn. I can learn how to do accounting. I can learn how to keep a set of books. I can learn how to code. I took computer classes back in the 60s. One is punch card input. So in other words, I can learn skills. I mean, [00:33:00] external skills, I can learn how to paint a house or frame a house or, you know, or code or, you know, whatever skills are needed, like, but can I learn the consciousness that's going to produce a productive life of contribution and meaning and purpose and happiness?

[00:33:20] Terry: Those are all inner stuff, inner things. So, I, I would, you know, put a big focus on that. I mean, I now, I, I don't mean this is arrogant, but I believe I could do anything.

[00:33:35] Terry: Why? Because anybody can. And how can I say that? Well, I've had experiences I can't explain rationally. But I stepped into it and happened, you know, I don't remember how much we talked, but I was paralyzed from my waist down to orthopedic surgeons told me I'd never walk again.

[00:33:55] Terry: One of them said I needed surgery immediately. My only thought was, well, then you can't help me. [00:34:00] And I set out to heal myself and I did right now. My biggest thing on my plate right now. Will this happen? I don't know. But I want to make a movie. Have I ever made a movie? No. Do I have any background in it?

[00:34:15] Terry: Not really. My daughter's a costume designer and son in law is a cinematographer, but other than that, not

[00:34:20] Terry: really,

[00:34:21] Terry: but I don't have any doubt I can do it. Why? I know how to put together an all star team organizing them and get them focused on a, on a, the result. I'm confident in what I can do. Now, that's, I'm skilled at that, and that applies to any project, um, so maybe your skill is, you know, whatever, coding a program, you can apply that, it's holographic, you can apply it anywhere, if, if you learn how to do it, you know, it's not hard, uh, well, it's simple, [00:35:00] but sometimes it's hard,

[00:35:02] ck: I think one of the biggest challenge, you know, the difficulty, the challenge, the hardest of it is, Not the material itself, the content, the topic itself.

[00:35:15] ck: Often, I was speaking already personal, most of the challenges step out of the way. The internal resistance, the laziness, the procrastinations that I don't want to, you know. Once I can get that out of the way, the imposter syndrome out of the way. Then the learning part of the execution part, at least for me is so much easier.

[00:35:37] Terry: Yeah. I still deal with procrastination and doubt and, you know, I just, I don't think my, my age is an age, a number. It's a stage, this stage. My biggest challenge has been there, done that. I have ambition, I'm energetic and I'm still involved in work. Uh, it isn't like [00:36:00] it used to be. So some of those, there's never an end to the, to the challenge, you know, the adversity or whatever.

[00:36:11] Terry: I'm I'm, uh, you've probably heard the term comfort zone, right? So I'm the guy who developed the comfort zone model that, People in this field are most, a lot of fields use. Now I didn't come up with the term, but the design of it and the way it's presented, um, I'm told I did. Do I know everybody? This is back in the seventies.

[00:36:35] Terry: Do I know anybody else who was saying this? I don't know. But I know I was early and it's the model I use it constantly. It's, you know, and the work I do is to get to somebody to the edge of their comfort zone. And how do I know where the edges resistance shows up? It could be an explanation, a logic, uh, an excuse.

[00:36:58] Terry: It could be a feeling, you know, [00:37:00] fear or whatever. It could be, um, an emotion, it could be, um, a sickness, it could be a, you know, I know how to, I know how to get somebody to their resistance, and through it, and, and when they're resisting, to me, that's a good sign.

[00:37:17] ck: Yeah.

[00:37:19] Terry: So, doubt, for example, is an expression of resistance.

[00:37:22] Terry: Procrastination is an expression of resistance. So, I, I consciously do things to get the people to there.

[00:37:30] ck: So, so actually, on that note, Terry, let me ask you a good question. My relationship with this internal resistance in the beginning part of this is this is bad, this is wrong, I don't like it, right? So like ignore, deny, reject, this.

[00:37:49] ck: Stay away, escape as quickly as I can, right? And over the years, through martial arts, transformational studies, I've learned to lean into it more. [00:38:00] Oh, you know, pain is a weakness leaving my body. These are the mantras, right? You know, harnesses, right? Like, you know, acute stress is good for us. Cultivate our capacity, mental, physical, all these, right?

[00:38:14] ck: But nonetheless, you know, I'm human. Um, again, make myself the teaching, uh, mechanism here. I still don't like thrive in it. Yeah. I still get like, if you poke at me, like, Hey, here's your blind spot. My immediate reaction is embarrassment. My immediate reaction is fuck. You know, I got caught. I hope this is aspirational.

[00:38:42] ck: I hope I can get to a place where I'm like, This is great. I mean, you know, Terry

[00:38:48] ck: found something that I didn't see. This is amazing. Like that positive, you know, reaction to that. I'm curious as someone who

[00:38:56] ck: invented this model, how do you, [00:39:00] what's your relationship when somebody. Pointed out. Hey, here's the thing you didn't look at.

[00:39:04] ck: Here's the thing you were bullshitting yourself. Here's an area that You know, maybe there's a little bit of self deception like look over here. How do you how do you relate to that?

[00:39:17] Terry: Yeah, no, it's There's something innate in human in nature That wants to be right or avoid being wrong. Now some of it I think is, is, uh, you know, genetic or ancestral or, you know, or, but part of it's learned and taught and it's, it's our experience going through the educational system in the developed world.

[00:39:45] Terry: It's in the same, I've, I've been in 101 countries, probably worked in 50 of them and some cultures this isn't true. You know, like when we went through school, let's say we'd hand in a paper and the paper was returned to it. What was on that [00:40:00] paper?

[00:40:01] ck: All the marks, you know, red

[00:40:04] Terry: mark pointing anything you did wrong.

[00:40:10] Terry: So what did we learn unconsciously? And that's painful to a kid, a young kid, you know, like I want to be loved. I, you know, what's wrong with me. I don't want, I don't want that experience of making a mistake or being wrong. I want to be right. I had, you know, many of us had parents who intended well, but the way they went about it is they also brought our awareness to the pain of being wrong, making a mistake.

[00:40:36] Terry: Now, I had a really critical father and, um, he was, I look, I now look at him, I, he's a wonderful man and he a lot of, you know, he did a great job, but, but he was the most critical person I'd ever been around. I could never do anything good enough. And, and I did a lot of good things. I was a good athlete. I was a straight A student.

[00:40:58] Terry: I was in, it was never good enough. [00:41:00] I remember, I mean, I literally straight A's except one B in history in high school, and the only time he ever commented on my grades was, how come you got a B in history? Well, that was painful to the 14, 16 year old me, or whatever age it was. And, but an accumulation of these, and this is not an uncommon story.

[00:41:20] Terry: Going through our educational process, their childhood learning. And so we don't want the pain of making a mistake. Uh, I got in, uh, looking back, I got into the work I did for most of my life, trying to try to heal that. And, and I did, so I know it's possible. How do you do it? Well, my method is experiential learning, but what you've said, what you just told me that, you know, the work I did, I done is.

[00:41:55] Terry: Originally, it was called awareness training, but it's much more than that now. [00:42:00] Um, simple awareness is often curative. I think it was Fritz Perls that said that, uh, but it, but anyway, it's just taking it from the unconscious to the conscious is sometimes enough to clear it. It's at least enough to get it to the point where now you can, you can learn and clear it and balance it and get it the way you want.

[00:42:23] Terry: You can make more conscious choices. And so the awareness, just the fact that you've described your process is a, is a major step toward moving past it.

[00:42:37] ck: Yeah. Awareness is a step to do anything right. And I'm, I am not aware that the thing runs me, but I, if I'm aware of it, at least I have a chance, a probability of having some sovereignty and agency around making an effort to navigate that space.

[00:42:54] ck: Yeah,

[00:42:55] Terry: exactly. Yes. This, um, [00:43:00] I, I don't remember who your audience is or, you know, all of that, but

[00:43:04] ck: there, I said, let me just do a quick pause. My audience is people like me or the younger version of me, the hyper achievers, you know, who very cerebral, very motivated, wanted to seek to have a life of a greater joy, greater purpose, a greater, um, spiritual connection.

[00:43:29] ck: Do they

[00:43:31] Terry: use that term spiritual?

[00:43:33] ck: Do they use the word spiritual? Uh, they are awakening to that. For example, the younger CKs. Do they

[00:43:41] Terry: speak to each other amongst each other about that?

[00:43:45] ck: Um, so like I said, it's, it's like a spectrum, right? So they may not phrase it in the beginning part of their journey, but through listening to conversations like this, from working with their peers.

[00:43:56] ck: Um, you know, with me, they're now more and more open to [00:44:00] understanding the subtleties and nuances of what it is that we're discussing. Yes.

[00:44:04] Terry: Yeah. I mean, I see that as a very positive sign. I mean, my generation, it was whispered like, you know, you would be X, you know, X communicated if like the business community and I was in new knew that there was any interest in this direction.

[00:44:21] Terry: Hmm. Cranes. Now it's not that way now. I mean, the business people I work with now, we can have these conversations. More and more. So to me, that's a positive sign because this is the foundation of it. Like, you know, here, here's this shows up all the time in my work, but people want to be successful. But you know what?

[00:44:44] Terry: They haven't done. They haven't taken the time to find out how am I measuring success. They've, they've assumed somebody else's measurement. They've assumed, you know, the companies, the businesses, this, the [00:45:00] cultures measurement, which is usually something external and often, often material dollars, uh, you know, a house, a corner office, the right clothes, uh, the right relationship or husband or wife or something.

[00:45:17] Terry: And that'll never fulfill you. It just won't. And once you, once you step into that, it's harder and harder to break free of it. So I, if you could go in, you know, this doesn't mean you're not going to have a job or a business or you're, you're going to produce in the world. That's, that's where we are, a physical world.

[00:45:36] Terry: But if you can do it from the inside out, instead of the outside in, you'll find it works better. So, I mean, a lot of the work I do with, I mean, I, I didn't want to be identified as a coach, but I have individual clients sometimes, and this is one of the first things we look out, you know, what do you really want?

[00:45:56] Terry: Who are you? Why are you here? What really matters? [00:46:00] And it always goes into like the measurement is subjective. It's internal. It's not external. We want a little honest. I just want more peace of mind. I want more loving. I want more happiness. I want more laughter. I want more ease. What are you going to do with all that money you're earning?

[00:46:22] Terry: Well, then I'll travel. What do you want out of the travel? Well, I want to learn. Okay, where does the learning happen? Inside. All right. Can you do that without the travel? Yeah, but I want to travel. Okay. How could you travel? Well, I got to make some money to pay for it. Do you? I've traveled the world over. I didn't I didn't make the money.

[00:46:44] Terry: So then I can spend it on traveling. I went into a field that took me around the world and I got to travel and somebody else paid for it. Now, if I would have strategize it that way in the beginning. Well, first of all, I don't know if I could have, [00:47:00] I could have said, let me go do these. Let me go become a trainer, which is what we were called in the beginning.

[00:47:05] Terry: Okay. Or a consultant or whatever. Let me go do that so I can see the world. I didn't look at it that way. I looked at it like, I love this. I'm curious. I want to learn more about it. There's amazing people I'm learning from who, the seminal workers. Now, I'm called a seminal worker, but in the beginning, it was just I dove into it and then it went someplace, you know, so I think the teaching is follow your heart, be true to yourself, and that's the paternal.

[00:47:39] ck: So, so Terry, I'm going to share something. It's a gentle pushback, right? And this is something that's common. I hear people say as well. So maybe you can provide some nuances. Here since you've been in the field for so long. So I was talking to another, uh, notable teacher who's [00:48:00] been doing this type of transformational work and author.

[00:48:04] ck: Um, and one of the thing that he consistently say is I know I'm making a huge impact, you know, in people's lives, do my books, my training, all these things, coaching and I know that I'm recognized in my industry or well respected. People will listen to me on these things, but. One of the things he, like, we don't usually have conversations, but when we do, he will inevitably slip in.

[00:48:32] ck: I wish I'd make more money or some, some variation of it. So I'm curious to know, you know, from your angle, you know, being this feel saying, saying what you just said just now, what would you say to that man who has huge impact, unquestionable, you know, to people's lives. Nonetheless, there's maybe some wounding, [00:49:00] some unfulfilled desires to make more money.

[00:49:04] Terry: I would say a couple of things. I would say, keep going. You're not there yet. And I would also say, how much is enough? You know, he doesn't know what he really wants yet. He is what I was saying about how do you measure success? He hasn't gotten there yet. So keep going, you know, success isn't more money.

[00:49:27] Terry: Yeah. Worked. You know, I, I, this is my, my story. I was a wealthy young man. I stopped working for money at age 35. I thought I had enough to never have to worry about money again. Two divorces later, uh, uh, uh, investment manager that I gave my, took over my finances, went through a made off dive experience.

[00:49:51] Terry: Yeah. You know, I mean, I had a, uh, well, I lost most of what I had and that was another school, but the [00:50:00] process was, uh, what I know about, uh, I learned detachment, which is freedom. I'm free. All the things I used to worry about and think I needed, I don't anymore. Now, how did that happen? , it happened with me with going through those losses, divor two divorces.

[00:50:21] Terry: I gave away six houses. Uh, I could go on and on about detaching from the material world. Am I gonna tell people, do this, do it the way it did it? No, but I am gonna say that at some point you're gonna have to learn how you measure success. What's your true measurement? And the resistance gets so high at this point, like, like the work I'm doing with, I've had a fascination with a number 12 for quite a long time.

[00:50:52] Terry: And I run and I was out running one day and I heard this voice. It said, get 12 people together for 12 weeks, [00:51:00] 1, 200, uh, start on October 12th, which is my birthday. That are the. It came out of nowhere. My brain said, I don't have time for this. And that's not money. And I, you know, that would take a lot of energy.

[00:51:18] Terry: I will put it into something that pays better. But it was the voice that led me in good places. And I said, okay, I'll do it. So, but I didn't like, what am I going to do for 12 weeks? I didn't know. So I call it spirit directed and I'm working with a group right now. We're starting our third session next week.

[00:51:37] Terry: And I don't know what I'm going to do yet. Uh, I will want to get, but it's, um, it's, it's the advanced advanced course. It's, uh, and it's where I want to work with people now. And, and I, and I'm finding people like, like, I can talk to you about it. I know part of you kind of leans [00:52:00] this direction. I, part of what, what's showing up, I'm maybe a chapter ahead of these people.

[00:52:08] Terry: Like I'm still learning too. But one of the things that I'm working with, with them and myself is synchronicity. And it's a language and learning that language. And it's like learning a language and, you know, one of my favorite quotes, it's out of the Course in Miracles, God speaks to us all a little differently, hoping we'll tell each other.

[00:52:30] Terry: Okay. Synchronicity is a way I'm being spoken to by, by something bigger than me. And it's fascinating. I mean, it's just, you know, and so I, I mean, I've got the group, like, start becoming synchronicity is these occurrences that are beyond probability of coincidence. It's way past coincidence. And they start showing up.

[00:52:53] Terry: Okay. What's for example, um, what's showing up for me a lot. I just did right [00:53:00] now. It's 11 a. m. I just looked 1111111 series of ones are showing up everywhere for me. That that is not a coincidence. Now it's 1101. If I look at the clock on my MacBook, this is I was a few days ago. I'm driving down Olympic Boulevard here in Los Angeles.

[00:53:25] Terry: I'm at a stoplight. I looked at my left. Here's a building with the address 11111. So I took a picture of it. I could go on and on. It's just yesterday. I'm talking to somebody. And, um, it's a, it's another group online and they know about my 12 group and, and we're interacting. And one guy said, I can interrupt you right now.

[00:53:47] Terry: Terry, do you notice how many people are in this group? And it was a group that fluctuates. It could be eight people. It could be 20. There's 12. And then another guy in the group says, do you know what time it is? It's 1111. [00:54:00] So I could go on. This just, okay. What's it telling me? It's a language. What's it saying to me?

[00:54:07] Terry: So how do you get the answer? Well, I go inside. What do I get intuitively? You might call it intuitively or innately or something or hunch or without censoring, what does it say? Okay. One. Well, that's one. That's the beginning. Okay. It's something about a beginning. Oh, there's lots of beginnings. Oh, it's new beginning.

[00:54:27] Terry: You

[00:54:27] Terry: know, that's the language. Okay. So I got that far. Okay. New beginnings. All right. Uh, the first, uh, it's going to be a good new beginning. It's, you know, am I making this up? So then I go online and I went to chat GPT and I said, what can you tell me about a series of ones? And the first thing it says is new beginnings.

[00:54:48] Terry: Ah, there's some validation. I'm learning the language, right? What if I make my choices this way exclusively? No, no, not [00:55:00] exclusively. But what if I bring that into my process when I have a decision or a choice or a question? Now, this is way beyond the law of attraction. This is, so I know I'm onto something.

[00:55:16] Terry: I mean, does this make any sense? Do you know what I'm saying? Oh, for sure.

[00:55:20] ck: Absolutely. Absolutely. The, the, so I, I, I came from the world of biomedical engineering, PhD, UCLA, you know, if I can't measure it, if I can't duplicate it, it doesn't exist. Right. Then I have my own series of studies. Fast forward to today.

[00:55:40] ck: I do pay attention to synchronicity quite a bit because I've experienced so many of them. Unexplainable, not logical, improbable.

[00:55:49] ck: Yes.

[00:55:50] ck: You know, it happens so often, it's I'll share a quick story if you don't mind. So I was at a Tony Robbins event, he had us, you [00:56:00] know, as you may or may not have participated in part of his seminars, you know, really activate the physical energy, you know, mental energy.

[00:56:08] ck: And then that's sort of his shtick, right? That's, that's the activation process that he has his participants do. And one of the exercises, activate the energy, pick a word out of the ethers, any word at all, and declare it to the universe. And then sit down, and then, Watch what happens in the next few days.

[00:56:30] ck: Okay, at the time was the beginning part of my journey, shall we say? Didn't think much of it. A day after, I went to go pick up my brother from the train station. He was doing the Men's Weekend up there in Oakland, you know, hundreds of miles away. He has no idea what I'm doing in L. A. Picking him up from the train, get out of the train, he said, Brother, I got a gift for you.

[00:56:56] ck: And thank you so much for picking me up. You know, when I saw [00:57:00] this, I thought of you. He handed me a carving, a wooden carving, a word on it. It's the same friggin word.

[00:57:08] ck: Yeah. And

[00:57:09] ck: I'm just like, what is going on here? It's, is it probable? Is it like maybe, but the probability of that, that word and 24 hours from my brother who has no idea what's going on, like what's going on right now.

[00:57:28] ck: There

[00:57:29] Terry: you go. You know, my story earlier about that Lifespring Advanced Training where all of a sudden I'm reading people's minds and finding a birth mother and a missing person, same thing. And that piqued something inside of me enough that, okay, this, I can't deny my experience, this is real and I gotta know more about it.

[00:57:53] Terry: What if this is the natural design? I would say it is. We just got disconnected. We [00:58:00] gotta reconnect.

[00:58:04] ck: So, Terry. You have been a student and teacher in this field for quite a long time. You're now 82 years old. Congratulations. Keep going. Don't stop. Right. I'm, I'm a, I'm a new fan already. I want you to zoom out for a second, right? Cause you, uh, mentioned a few words, right? Landmark and S and, you know, LifeSprings and NLP putting, you know, bio.

[00:58:31] ck: I'm curious from your perspective. Out of all the modality that you've seen. In the current state of transformation as a, as a, as a field, as a, as an industry, as a market, right? To help people grow and heal and, you know, actualize their potential, what would you say is, uh, perhaps the most effective, right?

[00:58:58] Terry: Let me, let me say [00:59:00] a couple of things. First, uh, Tony Robbins did his first firewalks in my leadership training.

[00:59:06] ck: Oh, no kidding. That's awesome. I love it.

[00:59:10] Terry: 1980ish, somewhere. Oh, great. And I had designed this leadership training, a three month course.

[00:59:17] Terry: And I was doing work with like, like the comfort zone. I talked about the boundary that comfort zone is defined by your belief system, the limiting beliefs. And I was looking for something to demonstrate to people that beliefs are not necessarily true. And most people, it's beliefs. They, you know, if I said, do you tell me your belief system?

[00:59:35] Terry: You wouldn't come up with very much because it isn't conscious. You don't think of it as a belief, but it's stuff like right. Wrong. Always, never good, bad can. Can't those are beliefs. Not necessarily true. And I was looking for a way to experientially demonstrate beliefs aren't necessarily true. And I had a way and it was, um, yeah, it was adequate, [01:00:00] but I wasn't satisfied.

[01:00:01] Terry: And about a week, maybe about a week before I was going to do the first version of this leadership training, this guy comes into my office, wildly enthusiastic saying, I can show people how to walk on fire, you know, and I can, I work with you in one of your seminars. And I said, tell me more about it. And he, and he told me some things and, and, uh, and I said, okay, we'll try it.

[01:00:26] Terry: I'm going to redesign the first weekend and, uh, uh, let's see what I'll give you three hours and, um, I'll be the first one to walk on fire and there was going to be 55 people in the group. I limited it to that. And if I get hurt, nobody else goes and it's all by choice. And he said, fine. So anyway, that was Tony Robbins.

[01:00:48] Terry: And he was, I think, 19 or 20 years old at the time. And, uh, I haven't seen him since. I mean, I did, he did about three of them in my seminar and then I found something better. ropes [01:01:00] courses. Uh, so what would be the best? Anybody who starts into self development, personal growth, um, whatever you want to call it, if they keep going, they will end up in some form of spiritual study and that requires a true spiritual teacher.

[01:01:23] Terry: And you've, have you ever heard of a mystery school?

[01:01:27] ck: Um, sure. But is there any specific one that you're pointing to? Okay.

[01:01:32] Terry: No, not anyone specific.

[01:01:34] Terry: But, you know,

[01:01:34] Terry: when the students ready, the teacher appears and that, uh, you know, at some point you'll end up at, so there are missed, there's a number. I don't know the number, how many, 10, 500.

[01:01:45] Terry: I don't know how many mystery schools, but they're out there and they're not advertising or marketing or whatever, what they are teach what's available. There is the most, uh, impactful, powerful, important. [01:02:00] Uh, I think the word uses modality. So, yeah, I have all those things you listed. I, I was in John Grinder's first NLP certification class.

[01:02:09] Terry: I mean, I'm still learning and studying someone. Uh, it's, it's rare now I see anybody that's got something I haven't already experienced. Their language may be different, their packaging may be different, but, but I wanna keep exploring them and, and, and I have, and they've all led to, uh, you know, the spiritual teaching Eternal truths.

[01:02:31] Terry: Mm-Hmm. that word through millennia. And the teacher I've worked with called it practical spirituality. The way I describe it is biggest challenge on earth is head in the stars, feet in the ground. How do I keep this spiritual awareness and priority and function here in the mundane? How do I do that? It's immensely challenging.

[01:02:55] Terry: And the more I become aware spiritually, the less important this stuff in the world is to me, [01:03:00] but I still got to work it. It's, it's very challenging, but nothing else is. And at some point, there's nothing else is rewarding. Hmm. And, um, it, it's a process. I, you know, I've asked my, and I, the people I work with, I mean, you gotta, I started working with people.

[01:03:22] Terry: I think, you know, if I ask a group of people, uh, how many of you would like to know your purpose in life? And it's almost a hundred percent of the how hands will go up. And so I, I've started working with that. How do you de, how do you know your purpose?

[01:03:35] Terry: And, you know, and

[01:03:35] Terry: that I do that. Even beyond that, it's looking for an answer to who am I and why am I here?

[01:03:43] Terry: And it's amazing how many people have had that quote, that query at some point in their life. I mean, I guess it's a hundred percent, but if I ask a group of people, 90 percent will say, yes, I've, I've wondered, well, let's, [01:04:00] that's an important, those are important questions. Who am I and why am I here? What's it really about?

[01:04:05] Terry: And until you've answered that you will not have. The fullest life available to you

[01:04:11] Terry: in

[01:04:11] Terry: however that's measured. So you got to connect with that at some point, somehow, if you, if you really want all that's available. And so to me, that's the beginning. You got to start there, not how do I become a better accountant?

[01:04:28] Terry: I may discover accounting. It's not my forte, but on the, on the other hand, if, you know, I, by, by entrepreneuring six businesses, I learned that's not me. I had to go through that. I mean, that wasn't

[01:04:42] ck: so actually I'm not, no, I want to, I want to ask you a question about it. To me, information can be gathered, especially now we have the Internet, YouTube, Google, chat GPT information is, you know, available at our [01:05:00] fingertips, right?

[01:05:01] ck: But wisdom is earned, you can, you can buy it, you know, in a book, even, right, even as much as people want to package it that way, to me anyway, wisdom is earned. We have to go through the challenges, you know, face the discomfort, the frustration, right? The, ah, God damn it, right? To go through it and then realize, oh, what a gift it was, right?

[01:05:25] ck: But it wasn't until you actually go through it and then you realize, I realized, you know, So I'm curious, as teachers, sometimes, the way I feel is, I'm sharing some of the fruits, right, the lessons that I got from it. With the attempt of hey, you don't have to suffer as long you don't have to you know Spin your wheels so much there is I don't say the more effective track to kind of go through it Right with a lot more grace a lot more dignity, right [01:06:00] so forth, but then I also think well The journey is the journey is the journey.

[01:06:06] ck: They have to go through the pain, the suffering, maybe the depression for a long period of negativity, the inner critic, the limiting belief so that right, they can receive the fruit. with that much more gratitude. I'm curious as a teacher, as a student, some, you know, you've been thinking about this for a long time.

[01:06:29] ck: What's your take on what I just shared with you?

[01:06:33] Terry: Yeah. Yeah. You're very aware of CK and you, you know, you have good, good questions and queries, you know, for yourself and anyone else. Yeah. It's, um, Am I actually serving anybody by sharing my wisdom or experience or, you know, awareness or knowledge, you know, am I, or am I harming them because I'm my.

[01:06:57] Terry: deny them this experience. Yeah. [01:07:00] Well, early on, I realized it's not my job to change, fix, save anybody. Uh, but it is part of my personal process, you know, my purpose to share information and experience. I offer their consideration of what they do with it is up to them. And if they benefit, if it can, you know, they got to go through their own experience.

[01:07:23] Terry: Uh, but you don't have to dwell in it forever. If, if anything that they've heard from you or me. Can move them through the pain of the experience and there will be some quicker. Okay, that's good. Or some people may spend their life in pain, you know, that's not, it's not my judgment to make. In fact, I, you know, I remember, I mean, it's little things that caught my attention, but I was conducting a seminar one time.

[01:07:53] Terry: It was in Santa Monica. I remember in the front row, there was a quadriplegic, a woman in a wheelchair. She [01:08:00] always had to be in the front row, right on the aisle. With a wheeler up in a wheelchair, couldn't move her arms or leg. It was a little lever. She moved with her mouth, head movement. And, and, uh, you know, and I was working with her and the challenges she had in her life.

[01:08:16] Terry: Well, you'd look at it and say, my God, what a challenge. I don't know if I could handle that. And a couple hours later, I'm working with a guy, you know, like four rows down whose mother said you're stupid when he was six years old. And I realized inside of him, that is as challenging, as painful as that quadriplegic, there's no different to that person.

[01:08:42] Terry: And it's not mine to judge or change it or fix it or save it or anything. But if I can offer, even if it's a moment of, of possibility or pleasure or positivity, even if it's just, you know, a moment. [01:09:00] Okay, I feel good about that. Beyond that, not my business. Now, beyond that, this is the biggest reward of the work I've done.

[01:09:09] Terry: I hear back from people decades later, even fairly frequently, uh, you know, and someone I hadn't seen or talked to or even remembered.

[01:09:24] Terry: Well, here

[01:09:28] Terry: let's yeah. Okay. I'll say this. So I want to make this movie. Can, can I make a movie? Yeah, I can. Uh, it's a movie about a book that was super important to me in my transition. I mean, it was the catalyst for me to close those businesses. Uh, a book called Illusions, Richard Bach, and I, it was, it was fiction, semi autobiographical about Bach, who's a pilot, an author, and, but I [01:10:00] didn't read it as fiction.

[01:10:00] Terry: I read it as this, this is true and I want to know about it. I want to even meet the people who could even think of this to write it. So it was very important. Um, fast forward, maybe 20 years. I meet a guy who's become a friend who is a writer, producer, director, and found out he had the movie rights to the movie Illusions.

[01:10:28] Terry: And I'm saying, you know, Barnett, you know, we got to know each other and periodically said, you're never going to make that movie. That'd be such a good movie. And this is probably six, seven, eight years ago. He said, I don't ever want to make another movie if I've got to get involved in the financing.

[01:10:48] Terry: Maybe the timeline here will be useful to some people. If nothing else, be patient. So, you know, so Barnett, I filed that away. Barnett said, I'd like to see the book made into a movie and Barnett's [01:11:00] got the rights and he's, he's won an Academy Award for a film he made and he's good. You know, and so, so then I'm, I'm, I'm in a group called Metal.

[01:11:12] Terry: You're in that, aren't you? Mm hmm. Isn't that where we Yeah. So, a guy in metal, who I've become acquainted with, had dinner with a few times, we connected, and one day he said, Terry, you've got to meet my best friend. I think you guys would really get along. I said, okay. Well, his best friend owns the LA Center Studios.

[01:11:30] Terry: There's six soundstages and 20 acres in downtown Los Angeles. Never heard of it, but it's right in the midst of these high rises, and so we go down there to have lunch in their cafeteria. I'm sitting in the lobby. And this guy walks up behind me and he said, Oh my, Gary Tillman, so good to see you again. I stand up and I look at him and I don't recognize him.

[01:11:49] Terry: He said, you don't recognize me, do you? I said, I'm sorry, I don't. He said, you did my insight seminar advanced training. This is like 25 years ago. [01:12:00] And he gestures to this facility, this high rise building and sound studios and all this stuff. And he said, none of this would be here were it not for you. Wow.

[01:12:10] Terry: I'm saying, what did I do? I don't have no memory and he describes something I did in working with him in a seminar. I have no memory of this. So, okay. I love that. He's shared it with me because that I say, okay, I did something of value to somebody. I mean, that's the real reward. Did I do it at the time thinking I'm going to help this guy become financially successful?

[01:12:36] Terry: No, not at all. Mm-Hmm. , uh, in other words, you don't know it, it's, um,

[01:12:48] Terry: if, if I've said to myself more recently, uh, I wish I knew the 80-year-old me back when I was in my twenties and thirties. Mm. I could have saved a [01:13:00] lot of agony. Mm. If I would've listened. Mm. I don't know if that really would've served me. I mean, I'm, I'm so grateful for the experiences I've had. It's what created the wisdom I will claim.

[01:13:14] Terry: that I may never have gained had I not go through those. Now, some of them sucked. I mean, when I lost most of my money, that sucked. I mean, you know, one of my divorces, the most painful thing I've ever been through, it sucked. But I learned so much,

[01:13:32] Terry: you know,

[01:13:33] Terry: in the process, it turned out to have great value later.

[01:13:37] Terry: Um, I don't even know if I would have known that much going into it. Would it have eased it at all? Would I have learned it faster? I don't know. I probably would have served me, um, hoping there was a positive end at this, like it's going to get better, you know, maybe that would have served me. Yeah. So I don't, I don't know if I have a good [01:14:00] answer to your question.

[01:14:01] Terry: It's,

[01:14:02] ck: well, I think, I think the through line here, Terry, I, you know, um, ultimately is trust.

[01:14:10] Terry: Yeah,

[01:14:10] ck: you know, trust our own experience. However painful, however pleasant, you know, however joyous, however purposeful, however successful, however not successful. Everything was going to turn out as long. This is my, my own teachings, right?

[01:14:25] ck: We have two things that we can have control over life. Only two things. Our effort and our response, everything else, it's not, it's out of my control. It's, it's ultimately God, right? So, and I think the through line, at least what I'm gathering from your, you know, 80, 82 years old, you know, experience on this planet with sincere earnest, you know, studying and teaching, it's, it's comes down to that.

[01:14:54] ck: Like, trust the, the, know that the mystery of this. This universe [01:15:00] is way grander than we can ever imagine. And then also, and then have the humility to know that, and then also have the, um, you know, the sincere effort to just keep showing up and trusting that, you know, life is going to turn out great and it is great.

[01:15:18] ck: So that's kind of what I'm gathering.

[01:15:20] Terry: Yeah. You've mentioned two really important words earlier, faith and now trust. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of trust and faith, you know, where there's nothing else to fall back on, really. And that, you know, trusting and faithing. has led me to experiences where I've had knowing, like I know, uh, it's not trust and faith anymore.

[01:15:46] Terry: It's knowing. And that knowing came from experience that I can't deny.

[01:15:51] Terry: And

[01:15:52] Speaker 2: back in trust and faith, it could have looked impossible or mystical or, you know, woo or something, but I [01:16:00] have a knowing, but I'm not always in the knowing. In fact, most of the time I'm not, but I'll never forget. I've been there and it's real.

[01:16:07] Speaker 2: And when I'm not there, I've, I rely on trust and faith.

[01:16:13] ck: Here's I'm interpreting what you're saying. Um, for a lot of people they say, Oh, look at this baby, you know, so joyous, you know, but they're joyous because they don't know anything. Whereas you have lived 82 years of your life, have gone through the ups and downs and you choose to be joyous. This is a choice, right?

[01:16:40] ck: This is much more tested. You know, uh, so hence the knowing, like I don't know, I don't have the evidence, but I've gone through this enough times. I know, right. This is more tested. This is more resilient. This is more anti fragile than somebody who just has no idea and [01:17:00] ignorant and just like, Oh, life is amazing.

[01:17:02] ck: Yes. And you know, that's kind of what I'm gathering from what you're sharing. Is that an accurate reflection?

[01:17:08] Terry: Yeah. Uh, accurate and not complete, but, um, short, short, yes. I choose to be happy. I choose to be joyful. I choose to have a positive take on things. Um, and it's constant, you know, like in athletics, they talk about reps.

[01:17:29] Terry: Like I'm a big fan of college football, University of Oregon sports. I used to travel with their basketball team, you know, and I maintain the interest in. Daily. I'm the Oregon football team is now rated number one in the country. And back when I was in Eugene, Oregon, they were really mediocre. So I watched him rise to number one.

[01:17:49] Terry: And that's, you know, I pay attention because how did they, how did that happen? You know, who's, who are the leaders that have brought them to this level? And the, the, [01:18:00] the athletic director, the coaches, they're, they're brilliant teachers. They're really doing a good job and they're at the top and I'm looking at like, what are they doing that they're so good at what they're doing?

[01:18:11] Terry: You know, I want to, you know, they know something I don't know yet.

[01:18:17] Terry: They talk about reps, repetition, like you repeat, like the, like the quarterback learns a move. There's a certain foot, you know, five step drop or a three step drop before you throw. They practice that, which way they face and they repeat it, repeat it until it goes unconscious. And then it becomes a habit and they don't think about it.

[01:18:37] Terry: That's the way I choose happiness is pretty much that way now. Because in the beginning I had to consciously say, you know, do I want this or that? And then, and I still do, but mostly it's unconscious. It just happens. Now, for example, you know, we just had these elections and the country's very polarized in [01:19:00] wrong making, right making.

[01:19:02] Terry: They're pointing fingers and baptizing. I mean, it's gotten, it's gotten bad. And so Trump's elected and half the population thinks the world came to an end and the other half of the population thinks there's major hope right now. You know, there's going to be positive change. Well, which one's right?

[01:19:21] Terry: Depends on which one you choose to look at. All right is, is consistent with my belief. So which belief do I want? Do I want the dystopic belief or, or choice, or do I want the utopic choice? Well, I'd rather take the positive one. Why? I do better that way. Is it the right choice? I know it's for me. It's what works.

[01:19:46] Terry: Which one's right? They're both valid. You know, we, everybody's got that opportunity. Well, a lot of them will say, yeah, but you know, okay, now they're going to defend their stance, their belief. They're right. [01:20:00] Is that producing what you want? Both are available right now and all that's always that way. You know, I'm, I'm basically a pacifist.

[01:20:14] Terry: I mean, I, you know, I grew up in the Vietnam war era and everybody around me didn't want to go fight and I knew I'm not going to do it. I'm just not going to do it. I'm not going to go shoot a gun at somebody else.

[01:20:26] Terry: And I

[01:20:26] Terry: get in a conversation with people over the years about this and, and frequently they'll say, yeah, but what if someone showed up at your front door and was threatening to kill your children?

[01:20:37] Terry: Would you defend and fight back? What are you going to do in that case? And my answer has always been the same. That won't happen to me. Yeah, but what if it did? It's not going to happen. Terry, it could happen. It's not going to happen. And it hasn't. Why not? I, it's not that I don't choose into that world.[01:21:00]

[01:21:01] Terry: Literally, and it's, you know, we could get more esoteric, but it's energy, you know, um, it's literally, it's all energy, you know, and when the teaching goes that direction, and the learning, and literally, I mean, literally, it's, you know, I, I played in a band in the 60s, and,

[01:21:20] Terry: and

[01:21:20] Terry: there were four of us, and sometimes I'd tune our instruments, like I had, I played a banjo, we had two guitars and a bass, you know, And so I'd tune my banjo, and I'd sometimes I'd sit at a piano, I'd hit a note, and I'd match the string on my banjo, I'd put the banjo on a stand, pick up a guitar, and I'd go through the process again.

[01:21:39] Terry: Well, I'd get to the third string, which is G. The third string on the banjo is G. And I'd hit the G on the piano, and the banjo four feet away from me would sound.

[01:21:50] Terry: And

[01:21:51] Terry: the first time that happened, it freaked me out because there's nobody there but me, you know, who did that, you know, sympathetic vibration.

[01:21:58] Terry: It's very literal. [01:22:00] Our thoughts are energetic. What we think, what we focus on, what we choose is a vibration. It's an energy and it goes out there and anything else out there tuned to G is going to resonate in kind and reflect back to us. And so if I say, you know, this is a disaster, I look out there, disaster resonates.

[01:22:20] Terry: And that becomes my reality very literally now the quantum physicist and and the by the the you know, what's his name?

[01:22:31] Terry: Um, come on the medical research is even you know epigenetics the same thing So, I mean this it's very literal. So, you know, is someone going to come and threaten my children with a gun? No, now I could create it by becoming afraid of that possibility I This is very practical I mean, I, I mean, I can talk forever at CK, but [01:23:00] you know, just to make it practical.

[01:23:03] Terry: Uh, my biggest client was a manufacturing company, international company, 64th largest company in the world. And I was doing leadership work with their senior people, probably ran a few hundred people, maybe 900 through my, a series of my leadership trainings. And, and they liked what I was doing and we're getting some results.

[01:23:23] Terry: And, um, We're talking to one of the senior managers one day and he said, do you ever do work with safety? And I said, well, what do you mean? He said, well, one of our, our factories, we're having real safety problems. We've had a death. We're having injuries more frequently than should happen, you know, major injuries.

[01:23:41] Terry: And we've brought in safety consultants and we've tried, we've redesigned our assembly line and nothing's working. Do you ever work with that? I said, not by that name, but I'll bet I could, you know, but inside not knowing, you know, well, I don't know if I could or not, but I'll bet I could, you know, [01:24:00] I love the mood

[01:24:01] ck: spot.

[01:24:01] ck: You're just

[01:24:02] Terry: like, okay, let's go. Let's see, you know, it can't be any worse than what you're experiencing already. So he takes me to the factory. I mean, it's this big view. This is in Brazil, this particular one, and it's, it's this big, beautiful campus. It's all fenced and that we have to go through a guard gate.

[01:24:22] Terry: And, and so we, and it's landscaped. It's really a pretty setting. And we, so we drive through and the first sign I see, uh, there's a small sign at the guard gate. The name of the company, but another 30 yards down the way is a big billboard. I like a, like you see on the side of a highway, great big billboard.

[01:24:42] Terry: And it said X days since our last accident. And the X is these little cards every day. They increase the numbers. So it could say 20 days tomorrow. We got that far. We hadn't seen the big sign for the name of the business yet. [01:25:00] We got that far and he said, I see your problem. And he said, well, you haven't even seen the factory yet.

[01:25:03] Terry: And I said, I don't need to see the factory. I see the problem. And he said, what do you mean? And I said, well, let's go look at the factory and then I'll tell you. So we go through the factory. He shows me some things and I look around and I, I know nothing about the equipment or the. The manufacturing process, it's impressive, you know, and I, engineering and all this.

[01:25:22] Terry: And so I started working with him and it's, it's, it's simple. The way I say it is where you look is where you go. What you focus on creates what you call reality. So all I did was change that sign. I worked for them and took days, a few days working to change the focus. Instead of focusing on accidents, switch the focus to what's the ideal end result you want.

[01:25:49] Terry: That's we came up with a phrase. We put that on the sign. I showed him some techniques for, for visualizing and focusing some practices to get rid of that [01:26:00] fear focus. And it worked, you know, I mean, it's been, I don't know, four or five years since I've heard from him, but a couple of years later, no accidents.

[01:26:09] Terry: So it's spiritual teaching, but it's very practical.

[01:26:13] ck: Yeah. Terry, I mean, I can speak for you for hours. I mean, I don't know if you feel that way as well, but I, you know, the, this, the things that you speak about, your experience, Uh, I would love to do a part two with you another time. If you don't mind, we can totally go deeper into this whole idea of spirituality and energy, let me just take a moment to really acknowledge you, Terry.

[01:26:37] ck: I really appreciate one, your willingness to have a long conversation with me. You know, at 82 years old, I think a lot of the elders, you know, they're pretty happy with whatever they got and like, ah, youngster, I really want to talk to you. So I appreciate number one, your willingness to talk to me. And number two, I really just appreciate the, [01:27:00] um, just decades of the work and the sincerity that you bring to really make a positive impact to everywhere, everyone that you meet, you know, and, you know, I hope my listeners would totally get that as well, just by listening to.

[01:27:17] ck: the depth of your transmission. So thank you so much for the way you show up on the warrior.

[01:27:23] Terry: Yeah. Well, thank you. No, I'm, I'm happy to do part two or whatever. And I enjoy talking to you. You, you, one of the things I want, I don't want to see what I've learned. Legacy is not a big thing to me, but I want to see the work continue.

[01:27:39] Terry: And the work is there's, you know, you're, you're onto it. You know, you, you, you got the, you got the essence of it. A big part of the work I want to see continues experiential learning part of it, because this two dimensional screen is starting to replace that. And I think it falls short. And so [01:28:00] maybe we could explore that.

[01:28:01] Terry: Like, how could, how could I support you or anybody else doing what I call the work? To keep it experiential.

[01:28:08] ck: I agree. A thousand percent.

[01:28:11] Terry: Yeah.

[01:28:12] ck: A thousand percent. Terry, big hugs, great respect. Thank you so much for being a noble warrior. We'll continue our conversation.

[01:28:20] Terry: Thank you. Yeah. Enjoy your weekend. I'm happy to support you any way I can.

[01:28:26] ck: Appreciate you. Appreciate you. All right. Enjoy your weekend. Take care now.

[01:28:29] Speaker 2: Thank you. You too.