189 Myles Katz: Lessons From the Rise and Fall of the Synthesis Institute

[00:00:00] ck: Our guest today is Myles Katz. He's a co founder of the Synthesis Institute, one of the first legal psychedelic retreat that served over a thousand individuals and raised over 10 million.

[00:00:12] ck: And most recently he founded Confluence Retreats. Thank you so much for being here on Noble Warrior. I'm really, really looking, looking forward to have a conversation with you, Myles.

[00:00:21] Myles: Yeah. Thanks for the invite.

[00:00:23] ck: So before we're getting to Confluence, there's definitely something that we wanted to ask you.

[00:00:28] ck: I wanted to first ask you, you know, zoom out for a second before you co founded Synthesis. What happened? What happened to have you say, you know what, I'm going to get into this psychedelic space.

[00:00:43] Myles: Yeah. So in. I was late to psychedelics. I feel like a lot of people I meet who work in this field were using psychedelics recreationally as a teenager, you know, early twenties.

[00:00:54] Myles: Um, I was pretty strictly a drinker of alcohol, um, and [00:01:00] quite a lot, um, at those ages. And so I was really cautious about drugs. Um, I didn't start exploring psychedelics, um, until my late twenties where I was experiencing a pretty And this is language I can only use in hindsight, having done a lot of therapeutic work on myself.

[00:01:17] Myles: But where I was experiencing a pretty deep existential depression. Um, without any idea of why or what, um, I was on surface level, objectively living the dream that I had for myself as I graduated undergraduate, um, in Boston. I was living in Kenya. I was running. Startup social enterprise, um, helping poor farmers generate income through a really innovative business model.

[00:01:44] Myles: We had raised a few million dollars. We were, you know, I was earning a full time living doing that. Um, and we had been featured in things like CNN, BBC, like it was a really small business, but it was a really sexy business for international, um, places to talk about because of the the different touch points [00:02:00] of helping farmers and green circular economy and things of this nature.

[00:02:07] Myles: Meanwhile, on the inside, without having awareness or language, I was really suffering. And so, um, about once a year for a couple years, I was with some friends doing what, in hindsight, um, was not MDMA, but we all thought it was. Um, and that's just the nature of illegal drug scenes around the world. Um, and I, I described that I quite literally stumbled into LSD, Um, at, uh, Africa Burns, a regional Burning Man festival in South Africa.

[00:02:36] Myles: And this was, um, unquestionably the experience that lifted the veil, as they say for me. And um, I could tell you more about that trip if you'd like, but, um, you know, in short, uh, life was never the same after that. Um, I lost my interest to drink alcohol virtually overnight. I had this infinite spark of curiosity about this experience, which [00:03:00] started with Oh, my God, did I just melt my brain because I literally felt different in my brain, and I was not knowledgeable or intentional about that first exploration, um, all the way to, wow, these are therapeutic experiences that other people also have, and there is a bunch of, you know, it was 2016 at the time, so still before the most recent surge of interest and wave in the renaissance and breakthrough therapy status from the FDA, but there was enough of that as a.

[00:03:29] Myles: late 20 year old, uh, guy in rural Kenya, I could, I could self guide myself on the internet to validate my experiences and learn about them and how to do them safely. And, um, while I still ran that other business in Kenya for a couple more years, I really was just sitting in the office. Planning the next group LSD retreat that I was, um, okay,

[00:03:50] ck: got it.

[00:03:51] ck: So I want to double click on the existential crisis running a sexy social enterprise thing, because for someone, let's just [00:04:00] say who's materially success, maybe in wall street, maybe in Silicon Valley, One of their dreams could be right. Let me, you know, sell my possessions, go to Africa to helping people.

[00:04:10] ck: So on the surface level, it's like, this should be very meaningful. So if you don't mind double clicking that on that a little bit, um, why the existential crisis doing that?

[00:04:21] Myles: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, and I think it is a very noble career within itself. Um, I think for me, it was really wrapped up in.

[00:04:33] Myles: one being less seasoned as an entrepreneur when I started that journey and having some really unrealistically false expectations about how people in that world would operate. Um, so while everyone who participates in that world is good hearted and has good intentions, what I saw from a ground level operational perspective is [00:05:00] really rich Billionaires who were funding these businesses through their non profits as tax write offs, creating really unsustainable circumstances in, um, in this kind of emerging world of global social enterprise where you'd have companies that had raised 10 to 50 million dollars, had massive valuations to justify that raise, and realistically were barely producing any revenue in a market that wasn't really gonna grow the business organically like a, like a well established market in the US.

[00:05:29] Myles: So, so while the work itself was really helpful to the people who benefited, Um, I became a little disheartened because of the longer tail vision for working in the field was that eventually these businesses would be profitable. It would start to attract more and more typical investment, not just philanthropic billionaires who are seed funding all this, and eventually it would be, um, it wouldn't even necessarily be social enterprise and normal for profit business.

[00:05:55] Myles: It'd be a much blurrier line. And, um, I see. [00:06:00] Yeah. So,

[00:06:00] ck: so, so what I'm gathering from what you're saying is, Is um, um, the sustainability of it.

[00:06:08] Myles: Mm hmm.

[00:06:09] ck: Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Okay.

[00:06:10] Myles: And, and my own personal trauma, which was not yet exposed and worked on because I lived a life numbing myself with alcohol every weekend.

[00:06:19] Myles: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. It was also a major factor in me not feeling fulfilled in that situation.

[00:06:25] ck: Got it. Okay. So fast forward, you had this African burn, great experience, help you see whatever you saw. You can get into it if you want to. And then now you're just dreaming about planning the next retreat. You know, the substance of choice is LSD at the time.

[00:06:42] ck: How do you go from LSD to psilocybin?

[00:06:45] Myles: Yeah. So I'm, I'm in Kenya. There's no commercial interest of any of this. It's purely just this, like, exploration, a safe exploration of using LSD. We're organizing groups of 15 to 20 people [00:07:00] once every 3 or 4 months to go into the woods and, you know, from the outside very much like looking like a recreational experience.

[00:07:07] Myles: And as I evolved in this role, they became more and more intentional. You know, it wasn't just like, bring your own drugs and do whatever you want. It was, we all take it together. There's always a sober sitter. So it was, you know, for people doing drugs, it was pretty safe and structured. And I just had this realization.

[00:07:24] Myles: It was like, I think it was early 2018. I'm sitting in Nanyuki, Kenya, which is three hours away from the closest city. And I'm just like, realizing that all I'm doing is organizing these retreats for fun, out of passion. Like, no money being exchanged. And, I'm like, I should try to do this professionally.

[00:07:42] Myles: Because I'm, um, clearly passionate about it. And that word passion was not something I think I understood to that point, because I was excited about the work I was doing, but like a really deep sense, heart filled passion was something different. And so I reached out [00:08:00] to a handful of people on the internet who were visible in the psychedelic scene, which again like at that point in time was a small fraction of what it was today.

[00:08:08] Myles: And within a few kind of coincidental bumps and meetings, I got connected with two people who were, uh, who had the idea for Synthesis and Um, hadn't yet put anything together to like build an operation. I think they hadn't like talked to a couple of people about it and they actually approached me to be a customer.

[00:08:28] Myles: Um, and I very kindly wrote them a very long email with all my ideas just saying, I'm not your customer, but here's a bunch of ideas for how I would do this. And they invited me to join pretty much right away. So, um, that's, that's how Synthesis started.

[00:08:44] ck: Okay. So, so these are. People you barely know, and then you said, okay, uh, you're a kindred spirit.

[00:08:53] ck: Uh, you guys are doing this. I can offer, I'm assuming some business acumen, some operational support. Is that [00:09:00] sort of your role in the team? Yeah, I mean, they

[00:09:02] Myles: both were very, uh, relative to me at that stage, we're both very connected and, um, resourced in the psychedelic world. Um, one was the founder of the third wave, Paul Austin.

[00:09:14] Myles: Another one was a Dutch guy, Mark Tynesherp. So he was the Dutch anchor and like, that was the legal model to work in, is the Netherlands. And, um, I don't think it was explicitly stated at the time, but I, I was the operational person as it unfolded over the current, the next few weeks we did. Um, you know, it's probably four months till we did our first pilot retreat.

[00:09:35] Myles: Um, uh, we had like a week long with three, three days back to back. Um, we did it again a few months later and we had originally planned to start the business full time in the middle of 2019, just based on all our schedules. And I needed time to kind of step away from my business in Kenya. But once Michael Pollan's book came out in 2018, it was like, we just had so much interest and flow into our website that, [00:10:00] um, we ended up starting the business full time in November of 2018, just a few months later.

[00:10:05] Myles: So, you know, out of all the entrepreneurial ventures I've been a part of, which is quite a few synthesis by far was right place, right time to capture. Um, um, a growing interest in psilocybin, um, mostly through Michael Pollan and a couple of clinical research studies that got, um, breakthroughs, therapy status, and then all the media that happens with that.

[00:10:29] ck: Yeah. Right place, right time, riding the wave, so to speak. Yeah. I'm big, uh, I'm big on Taoism. I don't know if you, you know, know about that, about me, but

[00:10:39] Myles: yeah,

[00:10:39] ck: Yeah, um, so Taoism is about the Tao, the way, right? This invisible force, you know, that's all around us. There's the, there's the, um, the wave within ourselves, but also there's greater waves within the family unit, with society, market, and so on and so on, right?

[00:10:56] ck: So, it's kind of like, you stumble [00:11:00] upon it, was it more intentional? Like, let's, let's, let's go after this? Or is it literally, You know, right time, right place, just luck.

[00:11:09] Myles: Yeah. I say, um, well, all right. Like it'd be impossible to really isolate fully any of those categories. You know, I look back my lens of synthesis and I'm always trying to be really honest about this.

[00:11:24] Myles: Like my lens is more, um, Connected to the finances of the organization, because that was my main role for a long time was raising money. And while we did like have a great, um, like at the time it was really unique to hear people talking about this combination of modern science and ancient wisdom in a retreat format.

[00:11:48] Myles: Now it's like everyone's talking about that, including myself still. Um, and it was based on this like. The third wave was like our main source for clients in the beginning There's still a great resource for people to [00:12:00] have psychedelics out there. And so while those things were very intentional and strategic Also, we, Michael Pollan, just happened to publish this book at that time, right?

[00:12:10] Myles: I look in hindsight still at the story of Synthesis being strategic, being right place, right time The first 12 or 15 people we hired Like just gold, like fully passionate, like rolling up their sleeves, like edging burnout, but for the right reasons in the right ways to make the division we all shared work.

[00:12:31] Myles: And none of it would have been possible unless we raised capital. And if you look about psychedelic retreats around the world, Very few of them raise capital and there's a lot of reason for that. They're not particularly profitable business models, um, in the long run. Um, and so that's how I look at it, like the right elements and an injection of capital pretty consistently throughout the first few years of the business.

[00:12:55] Myles: Um, just kind of the storm of the right ingredients to. [00:13:00] Um, you know, kind of build what synthesis was, which for a long time, it was the place for psychedelic retreats in the Western world. Um, so.

[00:13:09] ck: Okay. So, so on that note, let's, I appreciate you going there right now. Um, so what are some of the, knowing what you know today, what are some of the keys of success and key challenges during that time?

[00:13:23] ck: Because you mentioned the key success already, right? Right place, right time, Michael Pollan's, you know, handful of. Key employees in the beginning, injection of capital. Yeah. Is there anything else around the success or is there anything else around the key challenges?

[00:13:39] Myles: You know, I, I look at life a lot as like, especially in like our capitalistic society as like, sometimes, uh, trauma patterns just fit capitalism really well

[00:13:51] ck: and

[00:13:51] Myles: like, inflate, like you're gonna give a nice shove in the right direction to, like, grow a business.

[00:13:57] Myles: Um, and I look at this with Synthesis, [00:14:00] all three of us co founders had this, like, pattern of fitting together where it was There were challenges and we were not as evolved or mature as we should have been to do what we did. Um, and thank, I really do. I'm so grateful for like some of the first dozen or so team members that joined really held it together while we worked through stuff that like we needed to work through as a founding group.

[00:14:26] Myles: Um, that said, like, It worked, like, like the right mix of like wanting to be front and center, but also balancing the, um, dedication to science and research and eventually connecting with Robin Carhart Harris's lab to help study and validate our retreat model. And then I look at my own role in it for better or worse is like making sure we had money to do it all throughout the years.

[00:14:53] Myles: Um, and so, yeah, it really like, I don't know if I'll be another part of another venture that has all that right mix [00:15:00] and timing, but, um, yeah, it was quite a ride. Um, I learned so much. I like, I look at this experience as like, a vacuum of learning in the psychedelic field? Because when else are we going to have unlimited, virtually unlimited budgets to iterate and iterate and iterate on a, on a psychedelic retreat model?

[00:15:19] ck: Okay. So, I mean, lots to learn there. So here's a question that I'm sure a lot of people ask you inside your personal world versus, as well as people on the outside public. So despite the outward success synthesis closed, uh, 2023, what happened and what some of the, what, what was some of the factor that led to the closure of it in spite of the initial, you know, all the media attention, all the money.

[00:15:54] ck: Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:55] Myles: I mean, we. So we started full time at the end of 2018 [00:16:00] and we had about 30 to 45 people a month coming on a few different retreats. Um, we kind of puttered through the beginning and middle of 2019, like kind of the, the momentum was sustaining but not growing. And, um, we ended up implementing some really, uh, improved sales processes and systems while also leaning more into media and, um, things like scientific relationships that we had.

[00:16:27] Myles: By the time COVID hit in March of 2020, a couple things were, again, this is like really like to me, like entrepreneurial journey, right place, right time. But we had raised a round of capital in February of 2020, closed it and got it in the bank. March comes, we have a hundred clients a month booked. Pretty much for the next few months.

[00:16:50] Myles: So like this whole funnel challenge and foresight, like it wasn't seeming to be a challenge, but then COVID comes and everything has to stop. Um, [00:17:00] And really nothing was ever the same. I mean, we had money to navigate COVID both through that capital round and the Dutch government actually, um, had this really interesting program where they gave 90 percent of full time employees salaries if you didn't fire your employee.

[00:17:16] Myles: It's like a COVID support system.

[00:17:18] ck: And

[00:17:19] Myles: so I was joking at the time, like we were probably the only psychedelic company in the world getting government assistance. Um, and. Eventually we developed this training program and, um, that's kind of how we floated through the pandemic was, uh, both, uh, pivoting to have a digital product in an online training program and also raising another capital round in the middle of the pandemic in 2021.

[00:17:44] Myles: And I'd say like, there's a bunch of things that put the nail in the coffin. Um, COVID never really stopped for us. Like, juggling, um, different countries and jurisdictions. And, you know, most of our customers traveled from the U [00:18:00] S to Amsterdam to go and retreat and like the travel restrictions never quite lined up again until very late in 22.

[00:18:07] Myles: And that was a pretty long time to keep waiting and waiting and not like fall starting. Um, we built a very unsustainable business model where, um, Yeah, the amount of sales we would have had to keep up with to keep our overhead, um, was, in hindsight, incredibly unrealistic. And, um, it was really all in the spirit of being the gold standard of psychedelic care and psychedelic education and these things.

[00:18:35] Myles: So, I do think it was done with a noble, uh, intention, but in hindsight, like not a financially sustainable path to go down unless we kept raising money. Good question.

[00:18:45] ck: So, cause, cause I don't actually know the nuances of your offering. So I'm assuming I'm projecting, let me know if I'm projecting here. I'm assuming it's the aftercare, maybe it's the doctors on site and, you know, things [00:19:00] like that.

[00:19:00] ck: Is that what you're referring to?

[00:19:03] Myles: Referring to in far as like unsustainable?

[00:19:06] ck: Yes.

[00:19:07] Myles: Yeah, we did have a very unsustainable screening process, uh, that included, um, a whole team of people who were paid a lot. And for good reason, right? Like we were first in the field to be as public about what we were doing and we really took that seriously and we didn't want to have any slips to the correct.

[00:19:25] Myles: So like one example is like, um, at the time it was not known to be safe to mix psychedelics and antidepressants or psilocybin and antidepressants. We spent a lot of time trying to work and figure out how we could support people instead of just rejecting them, because we also know that when you reject someone who's really desperate, which some of our potential clients were, because they're at the end of their line, they're hearing about this experimental treatment, maybe can be helpful.

[00:19:50] Myles: Like, we just worked really hard to try to, um, take those people and figure out how we can support them in hindsight, like. unsustainable operation to [00:20:00] work as closely with people as we did and try to get the sign offs we needed to. And, um, it's a little, it's, it's quite funny because now in Oregon, they estimate that, um, the majority of people coming to Oregon are on some version of these medications because now it is proven as safe.

[00:20:15] Myles: To mix the two, it's just a dulling effect. And so I think I use that as an example of like, I think at the time we said that 40 percent of the people were rejected was because of antidepressants, which is, you know, as a business model, just a really challenging place to be and, uh, results of us being so early and so pioneering that we, and taking the stance we did about safety and integrity and reputation.

[00:20:40] Myles: Yeah, so, um, that, and that's an example of some, you know, we raised the 5 million investment round in the middle of 2021. After like barely having any revenue since before COVID, which just gives you a sense of how wild the capital scene was for these types of businesses. I think [00:21:00] 20 or so companies calling themselves psychedelic businesses went public on the junior Canadian stock exchanges over this 18 month period, raising way more money than we ever did to have psychedelic businesses.

[00:21:11] Myles: no business models, um, you know, like saying they would do trials saying they would do drug development, but having very little to stand on. And it was really just, uh, is also when the crypto phase was exploding. And I really look at it in hindsight as like, yeah, it was, we did what we needed to do because we didn't have the capital and we didn't have the runway.

[00:21:32] Myles: And like, did we earn that 5 million investment around in hindsight? And then we built an admin team to execute on a much bigger vision to justify that round. And all of a sudden, um, yeah, we, we also made a decision at this time to not try to raise any more capital. Um, we were increasingly becoming aware of the negative effects of creating expectations and, um, you know, the limitations of growth, [00:22:00] uh, in a field that is virtually illegal or on the edge of being legal everywhere you're trying to do it.

[00:22:05] Myles: And so, yeah, we made a conscious decision not to just keep pumping capital in, but at that point we didn't, we also didn't make the business decisions to, to scale it down, um, because of the integrity and the approach we wanted to have. So,

[00:22:19] ck: so you're, you're kind of caught like, Hey, we want to do this right.

[00:22:23] ck: And at the same time, the revenue isn't coming in and you also didn't want to raise money. So you kind of caught in the middle.

[00:22:29] Myles: Yeah. I think there's a hypothetical scenario where like, if COVID was really like fully gone from the world by the beginning of 2022, I think there's a hypothetical scenario where we wouldn't have failed.

[00:22:42] Myles: Um, and like, I think it was like a necessary thing to happen in hindsight, at least for me in my entrepreneurial journey. Yeah. Everything is a gift. Everything is a gift. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I learned so much, like no, like I, there was challenging [00:23:00] relationships for sure in that entire endeavor. And I, and I am grateful to be in a place of just being appreciative for what I learned from all of them.

[00:23:07] Myles: And. I told, uh, my therapist as I was starting this new Retreat business about a year after Synthesis failed, like, I now can see Synthesis as a Five year, 10 million PhD program for me to do.

[00:23:20] ck: Oh, yay. Great. I'm so happy for you, dude. That's, I mean, to me anyway, I'm a, I'm a nerd at one when it comes to transformation and psychedelics, beautiful, Burning Man, amazing.

[00:23:34] ck: Being an entrepreneur though, it's one of the fast tracked for transformation. If we look at it that way, you know, having kids, I know you're a father, right? That's another, you know, fast tracked as well. You've been married, right? Oh my god,

[00:23:47] Myles: yeah.

[00:23:49] ck: Um, well, anything you want to double click there?

[00:23:54] Myles: About kids and not sleeping?

[00:23:56] Myles: Yeah. No, I mean, being a father is awesome. It [00:24:00] fills life in a way that It almost feels like the stereotypes that people tell you before you have kids, like, oh, your heart will be so full and you'll just stare at them and you'll say everything's so perfect about you. But like, it's, there's a, there's a magic in experiencing it.

[00:24:13] Myles: And I have so much respect for anyone who's ever been a parent because of How do you function on no sleep? Like, it was like, I was, and so, yeah. Um, it's a part of my journey now. It really does impact how I look at my lifestyle. Um, the lifestyle I had running Synthesis, Um, I would not have had any space to have a family or kids.

[00:24:33] Myles: And I technically started the family as Synthesis was, uh, you know, kind of crumbling apart. Um, and so when it came perfect timing, well, it did, it did help create some perspective in the matter, right? Like the other thing I was, I was in Oregon. So synthesis sent me and I voluntarily went to Oregon to get ready to, for this new legal regulated model that Oregon was setting up.

[00:24:56] Myles: So I had this like pretty important role in finance, but I had a [00:25:00] huge distance from the rest of the team. I was just living in Southern Oregon at the retreat center. We had purchased to eventually turn into a service center here in Oregon. So I think having kids was like, it would have been anyway, but having kids and being so remotely distanced from the actual chaos and the stuff that was happening and being able to turn off my laptop and go for a walk in the forest and realize that everything is actually okay, even though the business was objectively crumbling at that point, was a really powerful tool to keep perspective throughout the process.

[00:25:33] Myles: Um, And, and continued sense of like really a lot more intentional. Like I can look at my entrepreneurial journey and a lot of unconscious behaviors as like, yeah, like parts of my journey were not rooted in high integrity authenticity, and they were rooted in like, wanting to be seen, or wanting, you know, being afraid to speak up, and not wanting to rattle [00:26:00] the cage too much, but having like, challenging co founder dynamics that I didn't stand up to, and so yeah, like, coming and starting a new organization about nine months after Synthesis had failed was, you know, A much more intentional, thoughtful process.

[00:26:17] ck: So, so let's talk about that for a second, right? So, I mean, imagine being your wife, like, what? You're starting a psychedelic retreat center after all this? So tell me a little bit about that conversation. And also, obviously, your own internal, you know, rationale for taking everything you learned to start another one elsewhere.

[00:26:37] ck: Yeah.

[00:26:38] Myles: Yeah, I, I really believed in what Oregon was and is doing. Um, it's the only place in the world right now, and Colorado will follow suit next year, where, um, psilocybin or any psychedelic is actively regulated. And I have this very unique perspective of having a, uh, about six years, almost seven of a [00:27:00] career now in legal psilocybin work, you know, and it's not like, I know there's many people who have more experience in the underground world, but there is a different flavor of working above ground and being seen and there's accountability.

[00:27:12] Myles: And, and so towards the end of synthesis, like, actually,

[00:27:16] ck: can you speak about that a little bit, if you don't mind, like, what's the flavor, what are you talking about? Yeah.

[00:27:21] Myles: Um, So I, I'm also a burner, um, and I, um, I'm not afraid to admit that I do psychedelics in illegal ways, you know, on an ongoing basis, but I do really believe in the safety and the, uh, that the legal model provides.

[00:27:42] Myles: So when I'm talking to potential clients for coming on a retreat, I am, um, staying in integrity and authenticity with my personal use of psychedelics by sharing with them, like, this is not the only way to try psilocybin, it's not even necessarily the best way to try psilocybin. But if it's your first time ever, it's a really well designed, thoughtful program [00:28:00] that will make you feel really safe to surrender deeper into your experience, because it is all legal and regulated and, um, And I just really believe in that, like, for this movement to continue to evolve into the next stage of acceptance and, um, utilization across a wider audience, like, it's, legality is going to have to be really important, um, because there, this is one of the founding kind of visions of synthesis is there is just as much as you can go to Central and South America or in people's backyards across the U.

[00:28:31] Myles: S. to do ayahuasca and stuff like that, There's a whole bunch of people that are never even going to remotely consider doing something like that. Um, and so I talk to people all the time who like would not even consider going to other countries, um, or you know, working underground because It just doesn't feel safe, and I know there are ways to do that that is safe.

[00:28:54] Myles: Um, but I also, uh, you know, just want to meet people where they're at. And so, yeah, I really believe in this [00:29:00] legal, regulated framework. I don't have any trust or confidence or faith that the medical model for psychedelics, when it's finally approved through all the clinical trials, is gonna be anything great.

[00:29:12] Myles: I mean, people have a hard enough time getting an appointment with their doctor to try to schedule an 8 hour psilocybin session and then 3 preps and integrations with your doctor. So, you know, and then the other part of that is like, the medical model, like, is really focused on treatment. So, People are going to have their, their treatment for depression.

[00:29:32] Myles: Let's use that as an example with psilocybin in a medical container. Hopefully it's good. I assume it probably will be good because I, I've seen throughout the years that if you just have a safe place and a, you know, a thoughtful experience, like generally the psilocybin is going to do something meaningful for someone.

[00:29:49] Myles: But I also witness all the time, and you probably do too, is like, usually people don't take psychedelics once and then never want to try it again. And so where are all these people going to go after their [00:30:00] medical treatment, air quotes, um, and then they're left feeling curious or, um, They don't have the proper mindset on integration and other tools that they can use, like meditation and yoga and, you know, whatever it might be to maintain that kind of elevated state of being.

[00:30:17] Myles: And so, yeah, I'm like, you can kind of hear as I'm talking, I'm sure, but I'm really passionate that, like, this state legal model that's not, distinctly not a medical model, um, and creates space for lots of different use cases of psilocybin is, um, I think the best we're going to have for quite a while. So,

[00:30:33] ck: so here's one, I'm gathering from what you're articulating here.

[00:30:38] ck: A big part of his psychological safety, right? It's legal above ground. Everything is accounted for, you know, those, and you know, the, the physical safety component of it, as well as it's not just a treatment model. This is essentially a lifestyle. Like here's how you can practice this outside of being in a retreat center, [00:31:00] whether it's yoga or meditation as a way to help you regulate your body, your mind, your spirit.

[00:31:05] ck: Is that an accurate reflection? Sustainability, that component of it?

[00:31:09] Myles: I think so. And the way I usually talk about it is, um, for a lot of really good reasons, like the world of psychedelics, uh, is usually stuck in talking about a treatment for mental illness. And I think that's a reflection of not just the power of psychedelics, but also the baseline mental health level of our society.

[00:31:28] Myles: Like, I tell people this all the time, like, psilocybin is a great tool for depression, partially because it's a great tool for depression, and partially because our baseline mental health is so bad, that one journey could just like, take people who are treatment resistant for decades and put them, um, into a better state.

[00:31:45] Myles: And, um, I think that's a really narrow window of the longer journey of someone's mental health. So you have, like, on the small side of the axis, um, diagnosis treatment, and then this is how I tell my own story, um, a [00:32:00] much longer tale of what I would call functioning to flourishing. People who are getting by, maybe they don't need medications, or they do, but only a little bit.

[00:32:08] Myles: Maybe they do some yoga meditation, but they're still Um, hearing other people's stories in the media or on these documentaries that are coming out and they're still feeling like something's missing for them. And flourishing doesn't mean you're perfect, it just means that you're more regularly feeling a sense of connection to yourself and purpose and the spirituality and others and you're, you know, building meaningful relationships and you're waking up with like a clear, you know, a clear sense of why you're waking up for the day.

[00:32:36] Myles: And I do, I think psychedelics as you probably have experienced can be really powerful tools along that longer tail spectrum. And legal access is part of people continuing down that spectrum. Um, so yeah, that's how I usually talk about it.

[00:32:52] ck: I love it. Thank you. I mean, the metaphor that I say a lot on the podcast is.

[00:32:57] ck: You know, Ron Das is all, [00:33:00] you know, his whole thing is, you know, when you're knocking on the door of God, God answers, you don't keep knocking, right? That's his whole, you know, I understand what he's saying at the same time. You don't just eat one time and say, I'm, I'm now full. I don't eat again. Right. You don't just drink water at one time.

[00:33:15] ck: It's, it's, it's really a holistic for me anyway, a lifestyle. I go to the gym every day. I meditate every day. I do these things as a way to optimize why I am as a human being. So this is part of that. That's the way I see it. So thanks for articulating it. So segue. Um, so now that you've learned a bit about.

[00:33:37] ck: A PhD, right, running a 10 million business around psychedelics. What are some of the lessons that you're taking into, uh, your new retreat?

[00:33:51] Myles: So the, I'd say the, the first one that jumps to mind, um, is no outside [00:34:00] money. Um, and for the person who was, um, the only person that sent this us for the entire duration of the company.

[00:34:08] Myles: outside our CFO who we hired much later in the journey. Um, I was the only person that had any experience raising capital before, and I, I held that as my role, keeping the sinking ship afloat. Um, not having any, uh, outside money in my current project, I feel like is a pretty big 180. Um, I've gone as far to make it a non profit, and the reason for that is I don't think anyone should own this work, including myself, even though I'm, you Yeah, pretty much a one man show at this point with a handful of part time helpers.

[00:34:40] Myles: Um, and I don't, I think it's a combination. Like, of course, they're the nonprofit legal structure is not perfect. Um, but I do think it helps create a distance from some of the worst parts of our extractive capitalistic system. And, um, Yeah, if nothing else, for me, it's like, uh, it helps me be in practice with the real why [00:35:00] of why I'm doing this work.

[00:35:01] Myles: Um, given that we're a non profit, there's no donation button on our website. I've never asked someone for a donation. We do have tax exempt status, because I applied for it, but I, I still haven't asked anyone for it. Um, and that, I think, helps create like a really, helps create a boundary of intentionality around the experience.

[00:35:20] Myles: Not just for me and my Y, but the people we work with and the Y, um, with our clients as well. Um, so that's the first one that jumps out. The second one is small and steady. Um, at this stage we're doing one small group retreat of eight people per month. It's viable if I get six to eight people, um, which I've been able to get, which I'm really grateful for.

[00:35:44] Myles: And, um, it doesn't need to grow past that. I think it probably will. I really sense that and feel that. And if it never does, um, It's great. It's like those six to eight people get really meaningful, well curated, personally held experiences. [00:36:00] And I, um, I'm both running the organization and I'm one of the facilitators and I get to really hold people's personal intimate journeys all the time.

[00:36:09] Myles: And, um, as I'm making leadership decisions on how we should approach things like marketing or, um, partnerships as this crazy world of regulated psychedelics continues to unravel. Um, Actually, those are the two biggest ones

[00:36:25] ck: actually on that note. Yeah. Well, again, I'm hearing the, the purpose driven entrepreneurs are kind of whispering my ears right now.

[00:36:33] ck: Well, what about impact? You know, you know what, what, you know, you can serve more people if you, you know that the, I'm sure you hear that. Yeah. As well. Right? Or some rationale and justifications for raising money or Yeah. Respond to that. Yeah. Please, please, please speak.

[00:36:48] Myles: Um, yes, of course. And I think in my personal.

[00:36:53] Myles: journey. I have seen that that was like another version cause I did that. Like that was really the why of why I [00:37:00] raised not just that synthesis, the business I had before I had, that's where I learned to raise capital and raise a bunch of capital, which like probably wasn't appropriate for the stage and opportunity of the business.

[00:37:09] Myles: And, um, it didn't create as much of a headache. It's synthesis. Um, but yeah, I think it's, I can see in hindsight that like that Itch of like more and like, you know, if we just had enough money or we just had enough scale, it would just be like better. And we'd solve these problems. Like I can see where that was coming from was not a really grounded place of, um, and this is like really personal to my story, but it wasn't from a grounded place of like, this is the right thing to do for the right reasons at the right time.

[00:37:38] Myles: It was really coming from a survival and entrepreneurial survival standpoint. Um, And so, that's where I hold this perspective now, where like, I am pretty sure this thing will grow, that I'm working on, and like, I actually do think it might be in the next six to nine months where we're like, doubling [00:38:00] the amount of retreats we're hosting.

[00:38:02] Myles: And I have no attachment if that happens or not. And it's a really beautiful place to be able to stand in, to not have those external pressures. And I know More people could be helped theoretically, but I don't know the world of legal, like in here in Oregon and then Colorado is going to open next year.

[00:38:18] Myles: Like there's going to be no shortage of places people can go. Um, I think we'll, we have a standout program and there's reasons. I think it's different and attracts a slightly different audience and is a deeper experience for a lot of people. But, um, yeah, there's no like, unlike synthesis, it wasn't like, there was nowhere else to refer people.

[00:38:37] Myles: We felt if we couldn't take people, we're here in Oregon. If I don't take someone, I know they're going to find another center to go to. Um, so I don't have, maybe that helps with the, not having that like pressure of, you know, bigger, bigger, bigger. Yeah.

[00:38:51] ck: Well, when gathering from you is more of a transmission, you know, you don't need the audience or the [00:39:00] number of people to rationalize and justify that you're enough.

[00:39:03] ck: That's kind of what I'm gathering from you.

[00:39:05] ck: Yeah,

[00:39:06] ck: it's beautiful. I hadn't thought about it like that. Yeah, like you're, you know, you're serving people and that's the extent the capacity they can serve in an organic way. That's fine. You don't need a hundred thousand people, ten thousand people to finally be enough to serve the world.

[00:39:24] Myles: That's a very, uh, succinct way of like, Summing up like my journey, like my, you know, healing journey around money, um, with startups and, and I kind of that mindset. And I also like really still remember what it was like to try to serve a hundred people a month at synthesis. And I, and I tell people all the time, like, I think we did really good work with our clients.

[00:39:43] Myles: And I, and I think that's like we are, we are in the reputation we had. Everyone behind the scenes was, not feeling good. There was like so many real management dynamics and you try to get a bunch of people who really care about psychedelics in a room to run a business. Like everyone's there cause they [00:40:00] have their own personal passion and it's pretty hard to get everyone on the same page because no one's there for the paycheck and they have really strong beliefs and opinions of how it should be done or what approach or the ethics around it.

[00:40:10] Myles: And so, yeah, there's no part of me that wants to try to recreate that. behind the scenes anytime soon, or in a way that like, you know, we didn't earn like we, so this isn't necessarily earn everything we got because we were sitting on other people's money that we were, you know, um, burning through pretty fast.

[00:40:27] Myles: And I, and it does feel it's a really healthy orientation for me now to really have to earn everything, um, as an entrepreneur and as a small project, like, and yeah, they appreciate it a lot more. It's a lot more grounding. Um, and it lets, yeah, I don't know, it's been a beautiful journey, I mean.

[00:40:47] ck: So, so let me ask, I ask you some concrete question here, because you, you were at a very unique place, you know, working with, you know, different universities, you know, proper [00:41:00] research scientists had tons of iterations, you know, you had the funding to help you with the iteration.

[00:41:05] ck: So there's definitely a lot of. Asset learning from that. So what are some of the things that you learn in terms of ways to create a container that best help people to heal, to grow from these type of very transcendent experiences?

[00:41:19] Myles: Yeah, I think, I think the appreciation I have, so like a really micro version of the founding story of Confluence, which is the current project Confluence which is, um, Synthesis failed in the beginning of 2023.

[00:41:33] Myles: Um, three months later, the first license centers started to open in Oregon. And so my whole identity was wrapped up in this thing. Since this was coming to Oregon, we had the local media found out we bought this 4 million property. So it was all over the news. Big European company comes to Southern Oregon, you know, and, and then what was actually happening when it all went live was I had nothing to do with anything.

[00:41:57] Myles: And it was a really interesting like juxtaposition. And so [00:42:00] I slowly started advising one of the local centers here in town. I still work there out of there, um, for free. Um, they're just friends are great people that run it. And I was like, Oh, I do know a lot. I do this. So this experience was really valuable to learn how to do this.

[00:42:13] Myles: And then I saw how, and this is still true today. Almost everyone that comes to Oregon for a psilocybin experience is getting a motel room, flying in from out of state. I think it's something 80 to 90 percent, um, is the estimate of people who fly from out of state. Getting a hotel room, um, they might have one or two Zoom sessions, um, with their facilitator beforehand.

[00:42:36] Myles: Meeting the facilitator at the center that day, doing, um, a pretty high dose of psilocybin in most cases, like, definitely more than Hero's dose, is like the commonly prescribed dose. Wait, wait,

[00:42:46] ck: more than Hero's dose? More than 5 grams? What?

[00:42:49] Myles: Yeah, yeah, people are That doesn't make sense. Yeah, it's What? It doesn't really make sense.

[00:42:55] Myles: Um,

[00:42:56] ck: From nothing to, to more than five grand?

[00:42:58] Myles: What? [00:43:00] Yeah, the state of organ allows for very high dosing even beyond what was studied in scientific research, and there are a small number of use cases like that I think are valid for that, where people don't come off their antidepressants and might need more to get a You know, similar effect, but it's not detailed enough to regulate each specific scenario.

[00:43:18] Myles: So it's really just between the facilitator and the client to decide what the dosing is. Um, but yeah, it's, I looked at it when I first was in this world and I'm just observing what was happening in Oregon compared to like the gold standard and what we were trying to do at Synthesis. It felt really disorienting because it was so much less well held and, um, And so I really just kind of became disheartened.

[00:43:42] Myles: Like, okay. And I tell this to clients today, it's like Johns Hopkins has like quantified that, like for 80 to 90 percent of people, this psilocybin experience is going to be among the top three or five meaningful experiences or spiritual experiences in your life. It's like one of the more interesting research findings in my opinion.

[00:43:57] Myles: And imagine having one of the most [00:44:00] meaningful spiritual experiences of your life and sitting in a motel room by yourself in a city you've never been to. And as someone who had organized really thoughtful retreats, I just like know how much was probably getting lost. And I don't want to knock it entirely.

[00:44:13] Myles: Like it is a lot less cheap to do it that way. I have worked with people that way. I know they still get a lot out of it, but. I really wanted to like take a stand and for like what could be possible in a better health container. And so that's where I kind of slowly started this idea to bring back the five day, uh, synthesis retreat model, which is what we had, uh, eventually as an organization, we decided to only do these five day retreats in the beginning.

[00:44:40] Myles: We did a lot of three day, but, um, decided for the sake of the client experience, it was much better to do five days with two journeys. And, um, You know, the question you asked was, what are things about the container? Like, I tell people all the time, like, my objective for them coming in is, I want, the only thing you have to really worry about is getting yourself to [00:45:00] Oregon.

[00:45:00] Myles: I don't want you to spend time thinking about like, where are you going to eat? Or is it going to be okay? Or like, what if this happens and I need extra support late at night? Like, that to me is like, all taking you away from like, the depths of your inward process. And so, um, So that's a, that's a big part.

[00:45:19] Myles: Like people can, I hope people do more preparation work and we'd give them a lot of tools and resources to do more preparation work. But I know that if people show up with like little to no preparation being done, like the container is such where we can hold a lot of deep experiences from people suffering with like real mental health challenges to people who are just spiritually curious to people who are going through grief of a loss.

[00:45:40] Myles: And, um, you know, what that looks like in practice is like, having established, uh, contained places where everyone's together for the whole five days. Um, the people who are part of the retreat are not coming in and out all the time, like everyone's committed and being there, keeping that sense of safety.

[00:45:59] Myles: If [00:46:00] clients need support at, you know, nine, 10 o'clock at night after their psilocybin journey, like we're there with them holding that space with them. We're not saying, Oh, time to go home and clock out. Like, you know, um, and then other things you'd expect on a great retreat, like healthy meals, like great, uh, facilitation of other workshops outside the psilocybin, things like breath work or meditation or yoga.

[00:46:22] Myles: Um, also downtime. Um, a balance of downtime in addition to having a full schedule. I think what I've, uh, seen elsewhere, um, in the world of retreats for psychedelics is that, and I, and I like how Synthesis approached it, and I still do it this way today, is a combination of personal support and group. I really do believe in the power of groups and, you know, all the reasons that psychedelics have been done in groups for many thousands of years and we will meet with our clients just like Synthesis did, um, one on one [00:47:00] before and after the retreat and then before and after each psychedelic journey on the retreat and just gives people space to like the questions they're holding that maybe they don't want to answer in the group or ask, and, or maybe they don't have time.

[00:47:11] Myles: And, um, yeah, it kind of creates this duality of I'm getting the group experience and the supportive group, and I'm building bonds and relationships, and I'm getting my personal intimate needs met because I know I have dedicated 45 minute time slots with my assigned facilitator throughout the retreat.

[00:47:28] Myles: So I'd say those are probably like the core premises of like the container and why I think it's. Better. I don't know.

[00:47:36] ck: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's, it's a great balance of decline experience as well as the transformation modality itself. How did you pick, uh, just out of curiosity, cause I'm a, you know, a practitioner as well, how did you pick yoga, meditation, and breath work out of many, many others, you know, giving you some random things, like Tony Robbins, it's like firewalk or whatever.

[00:47:58] ck: Some, some totally [00:48:00] random things. Right. So like, why these three things?

[00:48:03] Myles: Yeah, that's funny. I had never thought so much about this. Um, these are the ones that the team of Synthesis kind of iterated and chose on. I'd say Breathwork. So we use Breathwork just like Synthesis did just before every psilocybin journey.

[00:48:17] Myles: Um, And I don't know if I think there's a, a more universally powerful tool that can bring everyone much more in a state of reduced anxiety, feeling in their body, um, and groundedness just before the psilocybin. So what that looks like in practice is in the morning we'll do about 90 minutes of a breathwork facilitated session and we'll go into psilocybin really like 30 to 45 minutes after that's over.

[00:48:41] Myles: And that I think has a, people will often have very powerful experiences in breathwork. You know, people go on retreats just to do this, you know, kind of transformational breathwork styles. And I always love, and I hope they do in retreat for us, but even if not, it just regulates your nervous system down to a place where you can go into the [00:49:00] psilocybin much more, um, calm and grounded and less anxious.

[00:49:06] Myles: Um, other things, you know, I think, I like to think about like, And I can't take full credit for this because it was really the team at Synthesis, but like, what are things that we can expose people to that they're maybe not exposed to, that if it resonates really strongly with them, they can keep going on their own journey when they get home.

[00:49:22] Myles: So that's like, comes to mind when you name a firewalk. Like, people are probably not going to go home and set up firewalks for themselves. Um, but yoga or meditation, like, really available, and, um, something that like, they can really start to dive into if that feels good for them when they go home. So that's, that's probably the answer to that question.

[00:49:41] Myles: It's like a combination of like tried and tested and also, um, maybe creating a spark of curiosity for someone when they go home, if they haven't already been exposed to those modalities.

[00:49:53] ck: Yeah. I do want to segue to a different Types of question. I'm curious because when synthesis [00:50:00] was founded, it was by three young guys, right?

[00:50:02] ck: Who I'm assuming both anyways, it doesn't matter to be young guys and and I would assume that you probably are getting Criticisms from indigenous cultures and like, hey, you know, what are you guys doing? Did that happen? I'm curious.

[00:50:21] Myles: I don't know if I remember any answers that I'll definitely agree with like three young guys that like you in some ways had our heads up our ass and like weren't necessarily like the if you were starting over from scratch, you wouldn't necessarily pick us three.

[00:50:35] Myles: Um, so there's like, you know, I agree with that statement. Um, even though as I shared earlier in this discussion, like it kind of was the right fit to make it catapult the way it did. Um, I don't remember explicit comments from outside like that, but I, there was a number of people who were of higher integrity and maturity.

[00:50:53] Myles: Um, some of them were in our kind of core. you know, 12 or 15 that we hired first, that, um, helped [00:51:00] bring a lot of that perspective and authenticity. I, I really think that like those first 12 people should have been called co founders because of what happened to make the wheels turn. And some of them were really holding it together for us while we were dealing with stuff that like, I wish we didn't have to be dealing with about co founder dynamics and, um, capital raising and that stuff.

[00:51:22] Myles: And so, um, yeah. Yeah, I'm really grateful for those characters who really held a higher integrity on the the wisdom and the lineages of using psychedelics ritualistically. So which

[00:51:36] ck: goes to the follow up questions is now you're working with indigenous communities to revive ancient healing practices, ancient wisdom.

[00:51:48] ck: Are you doing it differently this time, you know, um, and then what, what are some of the traditions or lineage or elders that you're, you know, um, [00:52:00] borrowing or receiving, you know, from to, to help you, you know, bring this vision to fruition.

[00:52:06] Myles: Yeah, I love that question. Um, and I will just say before I answer that question, like, I don't think like I've solved anything.

[00:52:13] Myles: Like, it's a very complex agenda item to. be bringing, um, cultures and wisdoms and people who are carrying things that like have are so far isolated from our modern world into a thing like a new regulatory process for a psilocybin experience here in Oregon. Um, so the, the main ways I'm holding this thread is, um, so, um, There are a few, I'm just trying to think the right way to say this because it could go into a long story.

[00:52:44] Myles: The roots of this, uh, re founding of this retreat model, Confluence, was uh, highly influenced by a close friend that I have, um, who is a, Shaman from a local tribe, uh, [00:53:00] Klamath, uh, Shasta tribe, Northern California, Southern Oregon. Um, he's an individual who is very psychedelically oriented. He was a military veteran that cured his trauma with PTSD.

[00:53:10] Myles: And later in life, he went down the path of his lineage and being a shaman. Um, his name's Thunder Eater. He's a really interesting character. And he participates in our retreats. Um, he's not there. He's not the psychedelic shaman. Um, he, he doesn't hold licensure, so he's not allowed to be there, but he does hold a thread of wisdom and lineage throughout the retreat.

[00:53:30] Myles: He welcomes people to the land. He does, um, kind of energetic clearings and just provides wisdom throughout the retreat. So that's a thing that we're doing that. Um, Synthesis didn't really do, like, Synthesis talked about wisdom traditions and lineages, but we didn't have anyone there to represent that at all.

[00:53:50] Myles: Um, Thunder Eater is also one of the three directors of this small non profit that runs Confluence Retreats, um, and the other, um, [00:54:00] the other director is also someone from a different regional tribe who, uh, isn't a trained shaman but holds this kind of duality of, like, modern and more connection to, um, uh, other ways of knowing and other ways of operating in our world.

[00:54:16] Myles: Um, Um, and so those are like the simple ways that I do it. We've done a number of reciprocity. They're small, right? We're a small organization. We've done a number of reciprocity projects of, um, paying to preserve different artifacts from different local tribes for, um, just the sake of preservation and, um, Yeah, and then I'd love to incorporate that more as we go on.

[00:54:40] Myles: Um, but that's, I think having, I look at it as having those two individuals as part of the directors of the organization helps keep that front and centered and focused. And then having Thunder Eater on the retreats is a way that He's just there. Like, I'm always checking in with him. He's, you know, I don't usually use this language, but he's [00:55:00] a type of spiritual advisor for me throughout this journey.

[00:55:02] Myles: And if there's ever like an ethics or a moral thing and I'm always checking in with them, like, is this right? Like, how does this feel? And uh, yeah, it's like a, it's a pretty cool thing to have. And the way he showed up and became a part of this project is really synchronous. So, um, yeah,

[00:55:19] ck: I appreciate that.

[00:55:20] ck: Thanks for thanks for sharing, um, the effort that you're making to pay homage to pay reverence and in honoring some of these traditions. Um, and I think for retreat centers. was trying to do that, right? There's, I don't know, how should I say, if I look at a spectrum, one spectrum is purely scientific, you're a medical establishment, you treat these things as molecules, medicines, and then that's that, right?

[00:55:51] ck: And then the other end of the spectrum is like a, like an ayahuasca church, it's all sacrament, and it's all tradition, it's all culture, and [00:56:00] And then, and then there's the middle, right? How do you not just saying words like honoring ancient wisdom traditions, but actually operationalize, like, how do you create a feedback loop so everyone benefits from being part of the ecosystem?

[00:56:19] ck: I don't have an answer. This is just questions that I'm asking. So I appreciate that. You know, how are you answering this question?

[00:56:25] Myles: That's why I said, I definitely don't feel like I have the answer either. I hope and expect that it'll be something that's continually revisited and iterated on and incorporated, um, hopefully in more meaningful ways as, uh, things go forward and our organization grows.

[00:56:42] Myles: Um, because it is important. I mean, um, I didn't even know this when I started this project, but the tribes around here in Southern Oregon, like, do have history with psychedelic mushrooms as healing and ritual. And, um, there's cave arts and stuff like that in this region. Um, so. Yeah. How, how, uh, [00:57:00] great is it to really start to incorporate some of their approaches that they learned and, um, welcome, you know, uh, worked on over thousands of years into some of the more, um, capitalistic approaches of like, you know, we all need to get paid so we can live our life.

[00:57:19] Myles: And, you know, um, I think there's a way. And, um, I do find myself like really, because of the experience of synthesis is failure. Like, I am mostly standing in the camp of like this is going to be a sustainable organization that keeps going and, um, cause it could be easy to get lost and like, I should give away more.

[00:57:38] Myles: I should do more in the rest of our student. Um, I, I'm, I'm, it's helpful to have the perspective of my co directors to be checking in on this cause I am standing in the camp of like, longer term, I want this organization to be like a thing that's, you know, it's not like a project that only exists because I'm putting in my 60 to 70 hours a week to make it work.[00:58:00]

[00:58:00] ck: Yeah. Uh, I mean, for me, the through line of our conversation is. Sustainability, ultimately, sustainability in terms of your physical energy, the time with your family, you know, you get the agreement from the wife, sustainability in terms of business models, sustainability in terms of, uh, involving, you know, local indigenous culture and sustainability just overall longterm, you know, and COVID or no COVID, right?

[00:58:27] ck: Things like that. So how can you basically make this organization as anti fragile as possible? So that's what I'm getting from this. Is there anything else do you think I should be asking but I didn't ask you at all from our conversation? I

[00:58:44] Myles: think we covered a lot I feel like I was looking at the timer. I'm like, how do we cover all those topics? it feels like could it could have been much longer, but um, no, I think it was great and I really appreciate the Thoughtfulness of the questions and prodding a little bit into my personal, you know [00:59:00] perspectives and and the reflections you gave me were even surprisingly insightful for me, so Beautiful.

[00:59:07] Myles: Grateful to be here.

[00:59:09] ck: Hey Myles, let me just take a moment to acknowledge you, I appreciate the honesty and sincerity that you, uh, even just the willingness to have a conversation with me publicly about the rise and fall of Synthesis, as well as the, the, the new birth. you know, and I really, uh, appreciate the, you know, the, the thoughtfulness of your, how you're running confluence now, taking all the lessons you got from synthesis and then, you know, and, and, and, you know, balancing your personal life, as well as this, this aspiration to really make a difference as well as the aspiration to, you know, take it and help it grow further.

[00:59:52] ck: So I appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time here on the noble warrior podcast.

[00:59:57] Myles: Yeah. Thanks for giving me the opportunity [01:00:00] to, I hadn't thought about this before the podcast, but there was always a part of me that wanted. a chance to tell the story in a certain way. And I feel like this probably achieved that for me.

[01:00:10] Myles: So I appreciate you giving me that opportunity.