191 Christin Ament: Dying to Live: Unlocking Death's Hidden Gift

[00:00:00] ck: Welcome to Noble Warrior. My name is CK Lin. This is where I interview entrepreneurs, practitioners about how they move from finite games to infinite games. Our guest today is Kristen Ament.

[00:00:12] ck: She's the founder of the Bardo.

[00:00:14] ck: Welcome to Noble Warrior.

[00:00:17] Christin: Happy to be here.

[00:00:19] ck: So important question. Let's first start off by asking the term, the Bardo.

[00:00:26] ck: Uh, most people don't know about it. I had to look it up myself. What is it?

[00:00:32] Christin: What is it? Uh, well. It can be defined as two different things. It can be defined as a physical space and a state of being. So, a little back story and a back history. The term, um, when used, Um, in this way is from the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

[00:00:57] Christin: So this word itself is a Tibetan Buddhist [00:01:00] phrase that refers to this, uh, in a very simple way, the intermediate state between life and death. But if you explore it more, there are many books and bodies of literature that break down the bardo into different forms. The moment of each breath, the moment of every time we blink.

[00:01:19] Christin: Um, and then expanding it to this idea of a disillusion of our ego and ourself. So, um, depending on what body of knowledge you're following, you can look at it as a very broad concept, a very big idea of this liminal space between life and death. And then you can take it down each, um, um, each avenue and break it down into each piece of your life.

[00:01:44] Christin: So it's really about the way I think about it is from that broad perspective of the state between life and death and how every single moment in our life can inform that entire journey that we're here as cosmic beings. [00:02:00]

[00:02:00] ck: I love that answer already because originally I was I'm so appreciative of this answer because originally I was going to ask about how people view death as the final destination, but ultimately it's a holographic if you think about it, right?

[00:02:16] ck: Because essentially you had trillions, trillions of cells in our body at any given moment death is happening this moment, this moment, this moment. So I love that you brought that in right away about that liminal space. Between the breath between the cell from the maybe the sunrise and the sunset, I mean, all of it.

[00:02:36] ck: It's holographic. So, um, okay, so since that we're going there right away. When people hear death, immediately they go to fear. And this is part of our primal aspect of, you know, being an animal, being alive. How do you soften that? How do you face that? How did you do that yourself first and foremost?

[00:02:58] ck: And then now how, knowing, [00:03:00] giving your profession, how do you soften that when people come to you with a little bit of a, Oh, I don't want to discuss death.

[00:03:07] Christin: Sure. Well, I suppose I'll start with my own journey, um, because it feels important, um, because I wasn't just born into this world with no fear around death.

[00:03:19] Christin: Uh, I'm very much espoused in, um, the 20th century and the 21st century telling us that Death is to remain isolated in the hospital away from everything, and, um, a lot of, uh, fear around it. I came from a Catholic upbringing, so we talk a lot about heaven and hell. Um, Of course, I'm I don't subscribe to those teachings anymore, but it is the narrative that I was told, um, in my youth.

[00:03:52] Christin: So fast forward to me in my twenties when I was, um, working as a nurse in the ICU at Mayo [00:04:00] Clinic, and I came face to face with death. almost every day. Some death was expected, planned death, and some death was pretty, um, unexpected and traumatic and, um, more difficult for the family to wrap their head around and myself to wrap my head around.

[00:04:19] Christin: And one of the things I remember, And each time I experienced this is how there was this duality in the way that I would approach each patient. So there was the Western model of medicine. That's very, very prescriptive. Um, looking at the diagnosis, looking at the treatment plan, uh, looking at the curative outcomes.

[00:04:41] Christin: And then there was this other side of me that inherently just wanted to question, who is this person? Um, in their soul, who is their community? What is, what is their family like? What is their history? What is their life? And that side I really never saw in modern medicine. And so there was this dehumanization that [00:05:00] happened in that experience that I was always just, I would go home at night and I remember just lying on my floor, splayed out thinking, my God, if this is my ending, I don't want anything to do with this.

[00:05:12] Christin: And so there was this idea of. Humanizing that experience and I did a couple of different, um, things while there that helped to at least bring some human humanization to the experience like, um, putting people's stories on the door. So the medical team had to address who this person was, uh, more than their diagnosis every time they walk through the door.

[00:05:35] Christin: Things like turning the beds around so people were able to look outside the window. Things like, um, doing massage and energy work at the end of life to see if that helped to decrease some of agitation and pain and things like that. So there was these small humanizing moments that happened, but it wasn't until I left the ICU with just this thirst to dive more into that world of what is this life all about?

[00:05:59] Christin: Is [00:06:00] this truly it? Um, that sent me on this global tour to explore. Um, different modalities at their places of origin. And I went there for a thirst for, um, the curative medicine model. And what I actually saw and was face to face with was how other cultures did death and dying. So then I came back and I started working in hospice and palliative care, and I've never looked back.

[00:06:27] Christin: So, I suppose I'll say that this fear comes from our modernization, dehumanization, and cultural perspective that death is a failure. There's a separation of self from death, which blows my mind quite frankly, because it's the greatest journey that will enter into is the dying process. Um, and so to me, my work is really trying to demystify that whole experience and bring so much reverence back to, to dying so that it's not, um, [00:07:00] It's not greeted with fear, but rather greeted with reverence and honoring.

[00:07:04] Christin: And hopefully that practice can start right now. You don't have to wait until you have a diagnosis, but it could start right now.

[00:07:12] ck: I love the way you articulate it. Um, so recently a dear friend's mother passed and I was witnessing how he was going through that process. And, and really I'm quite impressed how he was dealing with grieving with a lot of dignity, with a lot of grace.

[00:07:30] ck: You know, it was challenging, but he did it with a lot of grace and a lot of dignity, which it's not very common from my vantage point. And I'm 46 right now, and I see more and more death, right? I mean, my age, you know, you kind of don't see that in your teens, you know, 20s typically, but once you get older, you see just more and more.

[00:07:51] ck: And death is a guarantee. You know, we're, we're, we're no, we have two guarantees in life. We're born and we're going to die. [00:08:00] So how can we not to avoid this inevitable, uh, destination, so to speak, but, but, but, but, but think about it with reverence, not from a morbid point of view, but with reverence and how such that in my opinion, we can live our life.

[00:08:21] ck: You know, focusing on what matters versus the monopoly game of what don't matter anyway.

[00:08:27] Christin: Yeah, that's

[00:08:27] ck: kind of the way I think about it.

[00:08:29] Christin: Me too. You're in good company. Um, I think it's funny that you even said not in the morbid way because that's often what I hear that rhetoric of like, well, it's not, I don't want to be morbid.

[00:08:38] Christin: It's like, this is not morbid. This is a universal truth that all of us experience. Why is that morbid? Um, not, not to like,

[00:08:46] ck: Totally. Yeah,

[00:08:48] Christin: it is. It is a narrative that's in our culture of like death.

[00:08:52] ck: Actually, if you don't mind double down on that, because I don't know how to say it otherwise. You know, it is the guarantee, [00:09:00] but you know, I'm Chinese and culturally and I've been in America for 30 plus years.

[00:09:05] ck: So I'm kind of like that by cultural influence, so to speak in both cultures, they don't want to talk about it. It's the thing they don't want to talk about. So I'm curious, how, how would you describe. How would you perhaps go from I don't want to talk about it to let's talk about it. And let's not only talk about it, let's embrace it so that we can be more alive this moment, you know, so maybe you can help me articulate how you think about this.

[00:09:35] Christin: Well, I suppose it's like it's very audience specific, right? So if you're at a cocktail party and you want to start talking about death, then you're my people.

[00:09:46] Christin: But it's not something that comes up, uh, in, in normal everyday conversation. However, Some things that I have learned, some techniques are, um, when somebody [00:10:00] starts to talk about a diagnosis and they start doing it in like a hushed way or, oh, this is how this happened. I, I go, I dive into the person. And I guess that's a common theme that you'll probably hear from me is just, again, humanizing, um, That people like to talk about death as though it's separate from life.

[00:10:21] Christin: People like to talk about death as though it's separate from this person who's experiencing it. And the biggest takeaway that we can, we can have is really how we can bring that conversation back to the human side of things. So when someone starts talking about, um, in this hushed and saying, I don't want to be morbid.

[00:10:42] Christin: Um, just saying, you know, I'm comfortable having a conversation around death. I'm curious to know how that impacts you or what that brings up for you and, um, tell me more about this person and really not making it about the death because it is not about the death. What people hear is the absence of life, not the presence of death.[00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Christin: So by restoring life to every conversation and restoring the inevitable death that will come to all of us, we can then reimagine our way and our existence in that whole process. So, um, removing, removing death as the stigma and restoring life and death as a both part of the conversation. So that, that would be like an average, everyday kind of conversation, conversational piece of how to talk about death, um, without having to actually talk about death.

[00:11:32] Christin: That's my approach. And then there's very real ways. So one of the things, um, are the death cafes. And I've been leading those now for the last six years in my community. in Minnesota. And, uh, one thing that I found from this, so we do it monthly. Uh, but one thing I found is the, this platform, which is not unique to me, there are over 8, 000 in the world and they originated, um, over in the UK, [00:12:00] but this particular platform is beautiful because people come from all different walks of life to have an open organic conversation around death.

[00:12:10] Christin: And so sometimes you'll have an 85 year old sitting next to an early 20s, um, the 85 year old, this is an actual experience. The 85 year old was a DNR DNI. So do not resuscitate. Do not intubate, um, had a heart attack. They resuscitated her and she came back and she was pissed and she thought, why am I here?

[00:12:32] Christin: I, it was such a beautiful, I saw the lights, I saw all the things I had, all of this, this feeling of peace. And then I was shocked back to this earthly plane and I don't want to be here

[00:12:43] Christin: sitting,

[00:12:43] Christin: but, but I'm curious to know why I'm here. There has to be a reason. So exploring that, sitting next to an early 20 something who had, Is living in 2024 and also doesn't want to be here and contemplating what is the meaning of life?

[00:12:58] Christin: Why am I here? What is it [00:13:00] all for the richness that comes from those conversations? is unlike anything I've ever witnessed, because it's just so authentic and so truth filled that both people come away more informed and more eager to, to live, I suppose. So that's another way to do it is to, um, encourage people to either attend or host death cafe where there's nothing more than an organic conversation.

[00:13:25] Christin: So it's not prescriptive. It's, it's literally share, share your name and what brings you here tonight and then see what happens.

[00:13:32] ck: Good question, actually. What kind of people? You know, psychographically or demographically, typically go to death cafe gatherings.

[00:13:43] Christin: Um, I'm going to flip the question back around and ask you who you think would go there and then I'll answer it.

[00:13:50] Christin: I'm just curious. Oh,

[00:13:51] ck: sure. Sure. Of course. I mean, in my mind I go to, okay, so there's probably, People who have glimpses of dealing with [00:14:00] this directly, maybe towards the end of their life, maybe if there's some health issues, maybe they have some psychological, as we mentioned, the younger, maybe they're young, young in age, but they're dealing with some existential things in their mind, some questions in their mind, so they want some resolutions or some like minded people to talk about, you know, the meaning of life, the meaning of death and so on and so on.

[00:14:25] ck: Yeah. So these are the two that comes to mind immediately.

[00:14:29] Christin: You didn't name goth kids.

[00:14:31] ck: Oh, yeah. I mean, I actually don't know them. I don't know any goth person, so I don't.

[00:14:37] Christin: Well, it's it is that sometimes, but I think, um, in my circles, when I tell people about the death cafes, people are instantly thinking that it's just like a gothy cult, um, to which I say there's, there's very little of that.

[00:14:52] Christin: And it's so much more of what you just described. So demographically, um, I find it to be. So I'm in Minnesota, [00:15:00] so we're a largely, um, white, uh, demographic, but at Death Cafes, for some reason, the cultural experiences that come through the door are very, very robust, probably more robust than any place that I go to in the cities here.

[00:15:18] Christin: Um, and to me, that's always fascinating because every cultural background has a different experience with, with end of life. Um, and to hear the richness of that is very beautiful and it brings up a lot for each person that comes. So I would say demographically, though, the age range spans from 18 to 60.

[00:15:37] Christin: 65 typically, um, but probably the sweet spot is like in, in the 30 to 50. Um, we have more artistic minds and then some very literal that are dealing with experiences or work in the medical field or interested in end of life work in some capacity. So, um, One thing that I found is [00:16:00] because death is a universal experience, it doesn't exclude anybody.

[00:16:03] Christin: So there are so many people from different walks of life that come. And that's one of the pieces of it that I, that's so magnetic to me in leading those.

[00:16:14] ck: That's beautiful. I would assume also, this is a projection. Let me know if it is, um, because we don't know what happened after we die. So maybe a lot of conversations circles around.

[00:16:27] ck: Near death experience certain books about it, you know, what happens, what kind of, do you, what visuals do you see and what's the grand narrative of it all? Spirituality and I, I'm assuming, is that an accurate ?

[00:16:42] Christin: Yeah, it really is. And again, it's very specific on, on each month because it depends on what people show up with what, what questions are on their heart.

[00:16:50] Christin: You, you named it perfectly that we don't know what happens at time of death and what happens afterwards. So, um, in the Bardo are the belief and in, in Buddhist [00:17:00] philosophy, the belief is that we go on, right? We continue to transition through lifetimes until we, we reach nirvana, uh, or a great state of enlightenment.

[00:17:09] Christin: And then in which we just become, we go back to stardust from, from whence we came. And in other cultural beliefs, we, we just die and it's over, or we go to heaven or hell or purgatory or what, what, what have you. So there is a lot of discussion around there. And of course, that comes with discussions about angels and ghosts and other paranormal entities as well.

[00:17:31] Christin: Um, I actually don't want to go down that avenue, but I will just say that we, um, every, every year around the day of the dead, we do, um, and an ancestral altar, as well as have somebody with experience in paranormal come in just to do an, um, uh, an experience for people. Um, I will hold my beliefs on that for, uh, podcast number two, paranormal, but I'll say that I, [00:18:00] uh, uh, it is something that comes up for sure.

[00:18:02] Christin: And. The takeaway that I always, I always have and what I try to bring people back to is, does it actually matter what happens when we die? Does it actually matter? Because if you knew that there was a heaven and hell, would you change, truly knew, would you change how you're living? If the answer is yes, then yes.

[00:18:23] Christin: You better start living that way right now, regardless, not because of the fear of heaven and hell, but because of the, um, discord that your soul and your, your consciousness is constantly, um, experiencing, knowing that you're not living in the right way. So. Again, that comes back to this idea of why death work, why is it so important?

[00:18:46] Christin: Well, it really influences how we live every single moment of our life. It should, at least.

[00:18:52] ck: Yeah. I mean, for me, death is the forcing function, right? Really [00:19:00] helping us, helping me, I'll make it personal. So helping me think about What is it, what ultimately matters to me personally, and then how do I align my life to what ultimately matters versus the monopoly games that, you know, society tells me to play, etc.

[00:19:16] ck: So one of the pivotal exercises in my personal development journey was Stephen Covey's book Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And one of the, one of the exercise that he has us do is to write our eulogy. And I was like, Oh, that was really interesting because here I am, you know, being hyper achieving.

[00:19:34] ck: I think I was in my 19 years old at the time. I can't remember exactly, but around that time, right. And then it was like hyper achieving, hyper achieving, hyper achieving. you know, and then here's, here's the exercise right at eulogy. And then, okay, do getting straight A's really matter about what it's my life about getting straight A's or not?

[00:19:56] ck: So that was, that was a pivotal moment for me in my young age [00:20:00] at the time. When people come to you, they are a former place of being quite comfortable yet with the idea of death and so forth. So are there, um, exercises, you know, path that you can take them down the road.

[00:20:17] ck: So then they become from not being comfortable at all. Let's not talk about it. It's no, no subject to, you know, I'm a little bit more comfortable. Let's let me write my eulogy to let's talk about it in with other people in the death cafe about, you know, the grand meaning of life and you know, what, da, da, da, da.

[00:20:38] Christin: Yeah, I think I'll take this question and answer it in a way that it pertains to patients at end of life or families at end of life. Because, um, the conversations are so different. So, one of the things, um, that I've done with both families and patients is do a death meditation. [00:21:00] Uh, and I've also done that with the general public.

[00:21:04] Christin: And the idea behind that is similar to writing your eulogy, but you actually meditate on, uh, the, the disillusion of suffering. Self in the physical form as flesh and bones, and you walk through your death. So there was, uh, an experience that I had actually in Hong Kong at this gathering where I was asked to do this death meditation.

[00:21:31] Christin: Um, where I gave everybody a diagnosis at the time of entry into the room, and then they had to read their diagnosis out loud. And then we went through a death meditation at the end of the meditation. Um, people were asked and encouraged to share what that experience was like, and then they burned their diagnosis.

[00:21:51] Christin: And I said, now your, your life starts right now again. So that can be really jarring to somebody who's actually dying, so I wouldn't [00:22:00] go that extensive. But for those who are actually dying, one of the things that we do is tell stories. There's a lot of beauty and wisdom in recounting people's legacy and in their stories.

[00:22:11] Christin: So, to your point about getting straight A's earlier, um, what people focus on when they tell their stories is getting straight A's. Is all of the beautiful connections and relationships, sometimes the accolades, sometimes the things, the material gains and the, the monetary gains by and large, the stories are that feeling when they saw their, their, the love of their life.

[00:22:34] Christin: Or that feeling that they had when they saw their grandchild for the first time or that feeling that they have when they hold their pet Uh, that's the story that comes up people's legacy story And so what that does is it is it brings it back to that person's lived experience and then they can reflect on I did so much I have really lived a complete life.

[00:22:57] Christin: Um, so that's one of the ways that I [00:23:00] try to bring it back for people is really focusing again on what have you done with this beautiful life that you've had and allowing people to tell their story and through that becomes their legacy. I think that that's a part that legacy piece is a part of why we have such a difficult time talking about death, because if we just all lived in this space of It will not matter in 90 years who we were.

[00:23:22] Christin: Nobody will give a shit. Would you? Ben care as much? Uh, probably not. And that's a hard pill for people to swallow. So people want to say, what is my legacy? What is my story? How will I be remembered? And in that vein, um, having people tell their story and share their story is really rich and rewarding.

[00:23:44] ck: I love that.

[00:23:46] ck: I love that you used the word legacy. Let me just focus on that for a little bit and create some context. We can go a little deeper. So I work with a lot of high achievers. They, they, they talk about, and I'm giving my work with, we do [00:24:00] talk about legacy quite a bit. And initially when they first started talking about legacy, typically they Here is a foundation I created, here is an asset that I've left my kids, you know, some quantifiable material thing, right?

[00:24:14] ck: Maybe a name on the building, a building itself, you know, whatever the thing, right? That's just what they think about legacy. And then we start to uncover like, what is truly the legacy that I'm going to live? Is it just a bunch of money? Is it just a building with your name on it? Is that it? And then for me, I'll make it personal for me.

[00:24:34] ck: Any legacy? See, if you think about ripple effects is all the things that I touch people's lives, you know, whether it's a kind gestures or words of encouragement or pivotal moments and then how it perpetuates over time. eternity. To me, the whole collection of that, that's, that's legacy.

[00:24:56] Christin: Yeah.

[00:24:57] ck: Yeah. So I'm curious if you have any additional thoughts [00:25:00] around the word legacy further.

[00:25:07] Christin: I do, but I suppose my viewpoint is it might not be one of, um, normal culture. So feel free to disregard, but, um, in a lot of my readings and teachings, that legacy that you just described to. While so beautiful and while so relative to all of us, self included, there is a start and an end point to it. And it's really foundational and rooted in this idea that, um, we are separate from, um, so our legacy is separate from the legacy of others, and that's what kind of separates [00:26:00] us.

[00:26:00] Christin: Um,

[00:26:05] Christin: Our brains like to get attached to these narratives of who we are, where we came from, where we're going, what we acquired, and that is absolutely fine. And that's the part of our brain that is very rational and logical.

[00:26:26] Christin: And we get fixated on that piece and we create patterns because of that piece. And yet there's a, there's a larger part of me that I am trying to explore daily living in 2024. That is about, um, not seeing self as necessarily separate, uh, And to, to not so much focus on that piece, but rather, how can I go back to restoring my connection [00:27:00] to it all and how what we perceive as our unique mark is, is Is an individual individuality and wouldn't it be beautiful if we saw really what made us special was how deeply deeply we were connected to everything.

[00:27:16] Christin: And I don't mean humans. I mean, everything. I mean, going back to our aboriginal and our indigenous side. soul where we were truly connected to the cosmos and to the patterns of earth and to the trees and the birds. And so there is a legacy, but that feels so human and limited. And then there's like a deep legacy of our connection to the greater good and recognizing that when I die, regardless of what legacy I had, my legacy is that I go back to the earth and I become food for next generations and food for the earthworms.

[00:27:48] Christin: And my being goes up into the stars and into the rain and into the solar system. So there you go. I don't know if you like that answer, but it's, it's one that I [00:28:00] sit with a lot of like how we look at our experience is so, um, focused on self. And I always try to personally focus on my connection to the greater, uh, and dissolving this idea of self as.

[00:28:19] ck: No, I love that answer, by the way. It's really poetic, really beautiful. Um, so if, let me recreate and make, make sure I understand you. So you like to remember that we are part of the collective whole, Stardust and all, right? And then for you, Legacy, the way you articulate it is your connection on a moment to moment basis of, you know, It's this idea, this concept of that you are part of the collective whole.

[00:28:50] ck: Is that an accurate recreation of what you just said?

[00:28:52] Christin: Yeah, it is. And I think, I think really expanding on that a bit just to think of, while legacy feels really [00:29:00] important, it feels very individual. And I would, I would invite us all to view our legacy as how can we become more connected to everything and, and remove our minds from thinking of how can I create a legacy and rather, how can I be more connected to everything?

[00:29:20] Christin: And in that, what a beautiful legacy is carried on beyond my life, my lifespan.

[00:29:26] ck: Got it. The, the metaphor comes to mind that we're individual wavelets of the entire ocean of consciousness. That's kind of what I, you know, as you're speaking, that's what comes to mind.

[00:29:38] Christin: Actually, I just, I just, it's so perfect that you said that because I was just reading, um, a piece from my tea teacher, Wuda, um, in Taiwan.

[00:29:48] Christin: And he said that the idea is to, um, be in the flow of the waves. and be the ocean. So don't be just the waves. Don't be just the ocean, but be in the flow of [00:30:00] the waves and in the ocean. So I love, yeah, I love that.

[00:30:03] ck: So actually say that quote one more time. I want to make sure I understand it one more time.

[00:30:07] Christin: So rather than again, this idea of separateness, so be in the flow of the wave and of the ocean, don't be just of the ocean or just in the wave flow of the wave.

[00:30:21] ck: Beautiful. I love that. That's so cool. So, um, a lot of directions that we can go. Uh,

[00:30:31] Christin: I told you,

[00:30:32] ck: no, it's great. This is, this is, this is amazing. Um, oh, so here's the fun one.

[00:30:39] ck: So a friend of a friend, um, did a ritual to herself. I don't know where she got the idea, but she did a ritual to herself where he asked my, she asked my friend to bury her you know, with their head on the ground. So as a way to viscerally experience. To the best of ability without [00:31:00] actually dying, what's it like to die?

[00:31:02] ck: So, did that for a few hours and that's her way of, it's a forcing function of, you know, having her experience that. I'm curious, uh, have you heard such rituals and if so, what do you think of it? And if so, are there others like that for those who are adventurous, courageous, who want to get close to that experience?

[00:31:29] Christin: Yes, I've heard of it. And, uh, I actually did that as well in Hong Kong at this, at this gathering. Um, it was a spiritual gathering. And so we did the death, the death meditation and the diagnosis. And then another, the next day was we went to the beach and we all buried each other as though it was our final day.

[00:31:48] Christin: Um, I think all of these are so wonderful. These experiences, the what we look when we look back at medicine people and our ancestors that had had more [00:32:00] of a consciousness awareness and admiration for death. They did these practices a lot and they sat with them. Um, often, and in fact, the political leaders and the community leaders and the people that shaped cultures often had to go through this, um, right of passage, and that was this great spiritual enlightenment, and often the times that came with some sort of a death, a near death experience or a, or a death meditation.

[00:32:29] Christin: So I've definitely heard of them. I think they're all so beautiful, um, and, and rewarding. And I would encourage everyone to do at least one in their lifetime. And I'll take it a step further to say that really the most, um, up close and personal you can get is simply, uh, volunteering at a hospice or in a hospital.

[00:32:48] Christin: Um, I always share this story that when I was, I was doing a, pilot program at one of the hospitals that had an inpatient hospice program where we would do [00:33:00] integrative medicine modalities for people at end of life. So think about meditation and, and energy work and, um, um, essential oils and a prayer and guided imagery and things, things like that.

[00:33:15] Christin: I had groups of people come in to be volunteers that I was coordinating and people would come in and say, I love my, my, my life's work is to be with death and to work with death. And I thought, great, this is a wonderful place for you. And they had said, you know, I'm a death doula in training. I went, I did all these trainings.

[00:33:37] Christin: This is my life's work. And we'd go up and we'd see an actual body that was dying. And they said, Oh, Oh no, this, this isn't for me. And I realized at that moment that there's, there's the theoretical and the, um, the teachings that we can have even in death doula trainings and things like that. But the, the most real you can get with really recognizing, [00:34:00] Oh, we're all going to die.

[00:34:01] Christin: No one gets out alive. is just physically sitting with a body who's that's dying and a person who's dying. So, um, I think that the death meditations and the, the burial practices are really beautiful at maybe building up to that point where it's, when you feel comfortable saying, I'm going to now take the next step and sit with somebody who's, who's actively dying because it's not always that beautiful.

[00:34:25] Christin: And I think a lot of the trainings are still beautiful. You know, we use rose petals and crystals and we do these practices to make it more beautiful. And the reality is, is sometimes it's just not.

[00:34:37] ck: I mean, I don't know if. Or actual, I mean the most beautiful death, the way I think about it is die peacefully on your bed, you know, with your family around you maybe doing your sleep.

[00:34:47] ck: That's like the most, but most of the time is not. I mean, again, you're the expert, so I don't know. most, yeah, you're right, it is most of the time is hospital [00:35:00] and some kind of more gruesome or more, more. I don't even know what the word is more, more active, more, more painful to have a way.

[00:35:10] Christin: And I think you, you also said something that I'd like to expand on is like in the hospital, like the ideal would be to be at home, but.

[00:35:18] Christin: I meet with people on a regular basis and say my, I absolutely don't want to die in the hospital. How can I either be at home or be in a place like here at the Bardo, where we have these beautiful rooms that feel like home. Um, and so we start planning for that. And then lo and behold, they end up going into the hospital and, um, It's no fault of any one provider.

[00:35:41] Christin: It is just the way our system is. They go treatment, treatment, treatment, treatment, treatment, shit. You're too, you're too sick and fragile to now leave the hospital and they die in the hospital when they could have been so much more intentional as a collective. And that's part of the mission of the work that I want to do is, [00:36:00] um, Encourage all of us both from the practical practitioner provider stage and from the people who are going through it to advocate for themselves and say, I don't want to die in the hospital.

[00:36:13] Christin: Okay, if you don't want to die in the hospital, then we're not going to send you into the hospital when you have a bladder infection and you're already on hospice because you're just going to go down the cycle of domino where you'll end up dying in the hospital. Okay.

[00:36:29] ck: So pause, let me ask you a question and then practical question, right?

[00:36:35] ck: For those that with aging parents,

[00:36:38] Christin: when

[00:36:38] ck: is the time to start have these type of conversations to do these type of plannings? Because again, it's one of those things that don't really want to talk about it. Don't want it to kind of. you know, set of some kind of omen or, you know, where your energy, where your focus goes, energy goes, you know, kind of energy flows, kind of like the [00:37:00] mindset, right?

[00:37:00] ck: So it's important to talk about it at the same time. Again, right. This is sensitive as the son, as the children. So, practically speaking, how far in advance and how do you talk about it?

[00:37:16] Christin: Yeah. Um, I just want to first tackle what you just said about the omen piece and putting it out there. Um, our brains are miraculous creatures.

[00:37:27] Christin: And so if we think it, it can become 100%. Our brains are also miraculous. If we change how we think of it, that can become a reality too. So, um, I think part of what you just said becomes the, the problem almost where we think if we talk about it, it becomes where that's because we have a negative connotation on it where we can reframe first.

[00:37:55] Christin: That when we talk about it, it's because it's coming from a place of love. It's coming [00:38:00] from a place of joy and celebration. And then, so, so that's just point one is, is let's remove that, uh, it's a negative. Having those conversations becomes a negative and rather an empowerment, uh, and a beautiful gift that you can give to your family.

[00:38:18] Christin: And secondarily, you can blame it on me and say that you just interviewed this person and they said to begin talking about it yesterday because my family knows intimately what I want and I'm 40.

[00:38:30] Christin: So

[00:38:30] Christin: I don't think there's ever a right or wrong time to begin talking about it.

[00:38:34] Christin: I

[00:38:35] Christin: think the moment we can have those conversations, we can be reminded of the intimacy and connection we have with one another.

[00:38:43] Christin: Um, so I would encourage you at the next gathering with your folks, just to say, I interviewed this woman and she said that it's important to talk about what we want before it's too late because why wait until somebody dies of old age, you could [00:39:00] get hit by a car

[00:39:01] ck: tomorrow. That's right. Tomorrow's not guaranteed.

[00:39:05] ck: Exactly. Okay. Great. And, but in tactically speaking, in terms of moving to a facility, that kind of timeline, you know, here, here's some suggestion, Kristen, if you have a way or a template, some tools to help people do these type of plannings, that would be super helpful. I'm happy to send people your way if you have such tools.

[00:39:34] ck: Well, there

[00:39:35] Christin: are tools out there. I mean, I certainly have some as well. People can come, um, have a conversation with me. I would be more than delighted,

[00:39:42] Christin: but

[00:39:43] Christin: there's also forms out there that are called advanced care directives, uh, living wells, things like that, that kind of break down very practically, like what you want to have happen to your body and your care and your treatment, how, how much of an intervention do you want the medical system to have, [00:40:00] um, to the expanded versions, which are like, what kind of music would you want at your ceremony?

[00:40:05] Christin: And what kind of food would you like? Would you want to use prayer? If so, what kind? Um, so, so those forms already exist. And most people, when they sign on to hospice or, you know, They meet with their team and they have a terminal diagnosis. They'll fill out those forms. But what I encourage people to do is when they're filling out those forms, do it in a way that feels joyous and feels ceremonial rather than feels fearful.

[00:40:33] Christin: And that's why I encourage you to do yours today and, and even share it with your family and say, this is what I filled out just in case. Um, uh, and. I think sometimes it feels very helpful to meet with somebody to guide you through that, because there are terms and concepts that might, um, bring up fear.

[00:40:55] Christin: And so it's helpful to have somebody who understands what those, why those questions are [00:41:00] being asked to, to walk you through that. So if you do that form, fill that form out before your terminal, I would find somebody that you're, that you're able to walk that through. I do those online with folks all the time, um, just as a helpful agent for, for people to ask questions.

[00:41:15] Christin: But, um, you can certainly find people in your community as well.

[00:41:19] ck: Beautiful. Awesome. Well, I mean, this may be a good segue to psychedelic work. Are you open to talk about it?

[00:41:25] Christin: Yeah.

[00:41:26] ck: All right. Awesome. So I'll make it personal once again. Um, doing 5 MEMO DMT, I wasn't expecting it, but it removed my primal fear of around death.

[00:41:39] Christin: I was like, Oh,

[00:41:39] ck: this is, this is, this is it.

[00:41:41] Christin: Okay.

[00:41:42] ck: Not as bad as I thought, but pretty awesome. It's very peaceful. Um, so I know that you work with, you know, certain psilocybin specifically as a way to help people move through some of these processes. So I'm curious from your perspective, [00:42:00] how does psychedelics play a role in supporting people?

[00:42:04] ck: Embracing death as a, um, you know, with joy rather than with fear, you know,

[00:42:09] Christin: yeah, yes. Well, I should note that it is not legal in the state of Minnesota. Well, psilocybin is not legal in the state of Minnesota. So, um, all of my responses are strictly theoretical. Um, but I actually will share that. Prior to very recently, I had no experience with any plant medicine of any kind outside of the occasional glass of wine or really good IPA.

[00:42:41] Christin: Um, I didn't have any sort of connection to, um, mind altering, um, substances. However, I had a deep, deep interest and reverence for all plant medicine because. My practice is connecting more with the natural [00:43:00] world every day and seeing the beauty that, that we can, um, that can inform our lives when we have a deep, rich connection with the plant world and the natural world.

[00:43:11] Christin: So I had done my doctoral research on integrative modalities at end of life. And in that, um, a large pillar of that was plant medicine. So cannabis, uh, and a variety of psychedelics, um, are our brains are so receptive to these medicines, especially the natural ones. We have an entire endocannabinoid system in our brain to receive cannabis, um, wild.

[00:43:42] Christin: Right. Like wild. Um, so then that was, that was part one. And then the psychedelics came, um, and it was strictly again, research theoretical for me until I went to a conference in Montreal where this, um, [00:44:00] radiation oncologist was talking about her work with grieving parents who had lost a child. And they were on their absolute last attempt for help.

[00:44:12] Christin: Um, so they tried psychedelics and so they would take them to this place and they would have this retreat with these parents and work with a medicine woman or a man and have some psychedelic experiences and it always helped. It always helped. And so I left that conference and that particular breakout session and I saw this woman and I bowed to her in the hallway and I thought, I will see her again.

[00:44:37] Christin: And lo and behold, we connected on LinkedIn actually. Um, and she asked if I'd be interested in, in doing that. participating in a training for end of life providers and psychedelics. And so that was my first experience with psychedelics. And similar to your experience, all of my research came flooding back into my brain and I thought, I see so clearly why this is applicable to people who are in [00:45:00] existential grief.

[00:45:01] Christin: Um, so that led me down a more, uh, uh, a more, more of a rabbit hole around psychedelics and end of life. And I think where it becomes beneficial to people specifically with psilocybin is this idea that, um, it connects us with the sacred. So our brains have, um, what's called a default mode network. Which is certain regions of the brain.

[00:45:26] Christin: I'm sure you're aware of this where we become really self reflective. Um, and it allows our brain to do the wandering and the meandering and thinking about how we got here. What comes next? And this is deeply rooted in our logical, rational brain. That again is so disassociated with our aboriginal souls and our self and our ways of knowing that we have done away with in the last 200 years.

[00:45:51] Christin: So that rational logical brain is where we get our, um, our sense of self. So we view [00:46:00] our thoughts as self rather than the being doing the thinking. And when we make our thoughts ourself, we get to curate that experience and curating that experience creates a lot of negative. Self reflection and a lot of negative, um, feedback loops that lead to rumination and depression and anxiety and things like this.

[00:46:21] Christin: So psychedelics are thought to decrease the activity in this default mode network, which really allows us to, um, become more deeply aware of our place in this world. Um, and. I find to our connection with the greater and, um, kind of remove this existential dread of the daily living, the rumination, the thought patterns.

[00:46:46] Christin: So when I talk about psychedelics, I talk specifically about entheogens, which is psychedelic psilocybin, but there are in pathogens like MDMA and Molly and dissociatives like ketamine. [00:47:00] So My experience is simply in psilocybin. Um, I have found that that connects people to the sacred and removes that disconnection, which seems to be vital in that playing a role in the existential dread around death.

[00:47:21] ck: Yeah, I mean, I've done a lot of study on around this, so I can get really nerdy about about it, but I would just speak generally speaking, um, it, that, that it basically turning down the default network, uh, you know, dissociates ourself. And then helping us collect, uh, relate or deepen our connection to the collective, as well as going into our subconscious and letting go of things that we didn't even know that we're holding on to.

[00:47:47] ck: So these are all happening in synergy or at the same time. I'm curious though, um, nerding out on this a little bit, you know, what's the dose that you [00:48:00] administer or that you have experienced personally, um, so that you. Yeah. So, so that, you know, so that you, you, you can have optimized your experience in letting go of some of the fears and beliefs and the things that you're holding on to, et cetera.

[00:48:19] Christin: Um, you're, you're probably going to hate this answer, uh, but it feels, um, Every person and every situation is different. So when I sit down with somebody to guide them, I literally listen to what my intuition is on the, in that moment. Um, unlike prescription medications that have like a pretty perceived outcome and expected outcome of therapeutic dosing and benefit.

[00:48:55] Christin: I find that psychedelics, We are, we are tapping into more than the [00:49:00] physiologic, but everything else. And so it becomes, um, less prescriptive and more situational and personal. So anywhere from one to five grams feels appropriate. Um, Um, and it also is based on what people's previous experience with psychedelics or any sort of substances are.

[00:49:21] Christin: I am so sensitive, um, like three glass, three sips of wine and I'm already silly. So I need way less than somebody who is very practiced with, um, different substances. So it's very, it's very personal. It's very personal on what the intention is as well. Um, and it's personal because sometimes when I've sat with people who have experience with psychedelics in a recreational capacity, and then they come to me for a more clinical experience, um, um,[00:50:00]

[00:50:02] Christin: I suppose, spiritual. It's different. So they may have been able to trip balls in at a concert. I put that in quotes, but you missed it. But I think it's important because it is not a trip when we do this. It is a journey together. So they may have had this previous experience where they took a mega dose, like five milligrams or five grams.

[00:50:27] Christin: And then they come to me and we have three. And they have 10 times more of a profound experience because of the set and the setting and the intention and the pre work and the, and, and the experience itself. So there is not one dose. It is very personal, unlike modern medicine, where it is pretty prescriptive.

[00:50:48] ck: I mean, that's the perfect answer, you

[00:50:50] Christin: know.

[00:50:52] ck: I love that answer. So you were wrong.

[00:50:55] Christin: Well,

[00:50:58] Christin: I find that like so, [00:51:00] so much of our world asks these questions. Um, I have a deep tea practice, um, in a ceremony. Actually. Yeah.

[00:51:08] ck: You know, tell us about the tea practice. I'm so curious, you know, cause you mentioned Taiwan, you know, I'm from Taiwan.

[00:51:15] ck: So yeah, those go, go down that rabbit hole a little bit.

[00:51:18] Christin: Yeah, so it's so, it's so curious. I mentioned to you earlier, um, that I did this global journey to look at, um, different places of origin and, and medicine ways. And I was in Northern India, um, and I was about to go to Tanzania to follow a cardiologist to learn Tanzanian medicine.

[00:51:38] Christin: And I had a pretty significant health crisis and I was all by myself. Um, Northern India as a tall blonde woman is by yourself is an experience. Um, I was actually in Delhi, which is, is north, but not so far north. Um, and I didn't know where to go. And I thought, I don't know what to do. I don't have any, any [00:52:00] lodging.

[00:52:00] Christin: I don't know. I don't have a way of getting a hold of anybody. What do I do? And so I talked to my partner and he said, you know, what about the, the global tea hut? And I had just been a part of the global tea hut for the tea. Um, didn't know anything about the ritual part of it. And I said, great. I emailed them.

[00:52:18] Christin: I knew that it was a meditation center and I showed up completely with blind blinders on, had no idea what to expect. And I, it, it has changed my world. So it is a Buddhist center that focuses on Buddhism and meditation, but they use the catalyst for that is tea and the teacher there talks so much about connection and and Buddhist philosophy and Taoism and things like that.

[00:52:47] Christin: So, um, It is about the tea, but our western brain likes to think about the tea as a tea and the practice and how you turn the bowls and what kind of tea and the temperature of the water [00:53:00] rather than, um, the deep act of service and the deep act of connection of listening to the water and listening to who you're serving and why you choose a certain tea to serve that person.

[00:53:12] Christin: So coming back from that, that was in 2014.

[00:53:23] Christin: 2014. Um, and so I just came back with that as a personal practice for meditation. It wasn't until about 2016 that I found this to be an excellent ally to my work. So I had a patient who was dying of pancreatic cancer that was incredibly stoic. And her dying wish was to have her son and her husband who was her son's stepfather Maintain a relationship when she had died.

[00:53:59] Christin: So I was [00:54:00] over there doing work with her in the medical capacity, but that was the one thing that she was ruminating on. Not that she was dying, but that they might not have a relationship. So I thought I'm going to try tea. It feels appropriate. So I sat them down on a couch and I set up my chachi, which is the, um, the layout of the tea and preparation for this particular family.

[00:54:23] Christin: Um, I chose the tea based on seasonality and, uh, the flowers that I had. I chose the music based on this family. We sat down and in front of me, these three people were sitting, patient was right in front of me. her husband to her right and then her son to her left. And there was about six to eight inches in between them when we started.

[00:54:43] Christin: It was in holding that, that, that space that tea holds so well, and that ritual holds so well that by the end of the ceremony, about an hour later, they were all in tears and holding hands and sitting next to each other. And I found that there's a great potency [00:55:00] in sharing tea. with people who have barriers to communication or difficulties around disseminating information because it holds the space and it removes the focus from the person and it brings the focus back to each individual and to the community, the community and our, our connection.

[00:55:17] Christin: So I've been doing that now with families. Um, I just had a woman last week who is in her seventies and she has a terminal rectal cancer and she's a social worker by trade. And so she said, I don't know how to hold this space for me. And I said, you don't have to. This is why I'm here. And this is why T is here.

[00:55:38] Christin: You can come and be you. You don't have to hold the space anymore. And so in that she invited her, her children that she had not told the news to yet. Yeah. Who were coming from out of town. I hadn't seen her yet. She looks incredibly frail. So we sat there and we had a tea ceremony and the, the catharsis that happened in that was so potent.[00:56:00]

[00:56:00] Christin: Um, that I just continue to use it as a, as a really good tool.

[00:56:05] ck: The way you articulate it is really beautiful. Thank you for the work that you do. Uh, I'm sure it's a beautiful intentional space container where people can dissolve their barriers, their fears, their hesitations, and come together and experience each other as a collective whole and experience love, experience joy together, you know, in a very short amount of time with your help.

[00:56:32] ck: So that's really beautiful the way you articulate it. Thank you.

[00:56:35] Christin: Yeah. You're welcome.

[00:56:37] ck: Yeah. It actually reminds me of other practices, cacao, or have you heard this medicine called Mambay?

[00:56:45] Christin: Mambay

[00:56:46] ck: is coca leaves ground into powder.

[00:56:48] Christin: So

[00:56:50] ck: the way, how it's practiced, this is totally random, but it's relevant, I promise.

[00:56:56] ck: They put the Mambay in the middle. So when two people have [00:57:00] disagreement, some kind of conflict, they put it in the middle and then they eat Mambay and then. It opens up your heart, you know, it's not facilitated per se, but it's, it's, it's a tool they use to resolve barriers.

[00:57:12] Christin: That's beautiful. I love that.

[00:57:14] ck: Yeah. So, so would you say that that tea ceremonial set up that you essentially created, invented?

[00:57:23] Christin: No. Oh my God, no. Um, Not even close. Uh, again, it was, it was taught to me by, um, in Taiwan at the global tea hut, um, by a man named Uda, who is a Buddhist monk. Um, and it has been happening for thousands of years.

[00:57:45] Christin: Um,

[00:57:47] Christin: I use it as a practice with patients and families for grief, and I'm sure there are many others that do as well. Um, I would say I'm probably one of the only [00:58:00] providers that I know in this area that uses it on a regular basis. I used to bring my T equipment around in the hospital with me. Um, when having care conferences and things like that, but I am certainly not the inventor of, of said practice, not even close.

[00:58:17] ck: Would you say that T cause hypothetically, You know, to random people, patients, clients, like, let's have an intentional conversation container. Like, oh, you know, it's serious. But would you say having tea there, like, softens it, like, you know, de armors the defense a little bit? Would you say that that's the case?

[00:58:42] Christin: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I feel like that's, I try to become that vessel too, of de armoring, um, by the energy that I bring into the room and the, the personalization. I feel [00:59:00] like that's, again, part of this overarching theme around death is that it is, terrifying to go into the hospital and talk to somebody in a white coat with a stethoscope around their neck that talks to you in terms that you don't understand and expects you to just go home and figure that out.

[00:59:16] Christin: So imagine if that, the, the onset of being told your diagnosis comes from somebody who is soft, um, that uses T and that looks you in the eye and says, First, tell me about your day. Tell me about your kids. Tell me about your family. Tell me about your life. And then says, you know, we're on this journey together.

[00:59:37] Christin: This is, this is what you're experiencing. And I'm here to walk with you through this journey. It is a shift and yet it is the same exact thing. It is the same exact, um, outcome of telling somebody the information.

[00:59:56] Christin: I think.

[00:59:57] Christin: In adding some femininity back [01:00:00] into that whole experience, if I can make it so feminine, masculine and black and white, which I often don't, but I think that there is like this very rigid, more masculine approach to medicine that, um, is, um, Creates a lot of fear.

[01:00:19] ck: Yeah, I understand. So I want to segway real quick, Kristen. Um, let's change it. With all the distinctions that you know, the practices that you have, all the principles that you learned from the Book of the Dead, the Five Regrets of the Dying, beautiful teachings from the Bible. all over the world. I'm curious, how do you take that into supporting those who are well, um, and so that they live with more joy, more aliveness, um, starting with yourself and people that you touch, your friends, your family, your clients, so forth.

[01:00:59] ck: [01:01:00] Is there any correlation that you see?

[01:01:04] Christin: I think it is the exact same. It is a continuum. And that's why I brought that idea up earlier when talking with the death cafe of if there is if you did find out today that there is a heaven and hell that when you died, you went to one place. Would it change how you lived?

[01:01:22] Christin: And if the answer is yes, change your life now. So I think the way that it's influenced me is. Um, in practice and theory and pretty huge in terms of outcomes. And what I mean by that is things that are easy to trigger me, um, or make me feel upset about. I recognize as silly. Uh, let's take the election, for instance.

[01:01:54] Christin: I don't want to get political because that's not why we're here. But there was a lot [01:02:00] around the election, regardless on what side of the line you were on. It was very heated. And while many people in my world were devastated and, um, debilitated, I thought this is This is a beautiful opportunity for us to step into what it means to be alive and for what, what it means for us to be connected and what it means for us to be humble and reverent.

[01:02:34] Christin: And so acknowledging that to have anger and hatred and, and, or bypass all of the grief that's happening in the world. Either one of those spectrums is not a good place to be. So I feel like in this work, a lot of what it [01:03:00] has done for me and, and perhaps my family and my close friends is just remind us that we're all so deeply connected and that this human experience is such a blip into who our souls are and what our souls are and how do we wish to live?

[01:03:15] Christin: How do we wish to make impacts in people and those we love? And would we really drive past somebody and flip them off and honk the horn if we knew that tomorrow they would die or we would die. The answer is no, you would not. And so why do it now? And so it's those kinds of practices that I think the more we become familiar with and partner with death, as opposed to make it this far off, um, experience, um, The more it informs how we want to live because most of us have a lot of love in our hearts and that's what we want to lead with and it's just hard to do that in 2024 all the time.

[01:03:54] Christin: So getting rid of all the clutter in our rational egoic mind and, and really [01:04:00] seeping in, in that, in that deeper practice of knowing of connection to self and to our relationship to death can inform how we live each and every moment of our lives.

[01:04:12] ck: Do you, um, I think it's the Stoics that use memento mori as a mantra all the time to remind themselves or actually have a servant following them.

[01:04:23] ck: Memento mori. That's pretty awesome. So as a way to remind them like death is near, death is near. So, um, How, how often do you think about it?

[01:04:38] Christin: Moment to

[01:04:39] ck: moment, daily, weekly, quarterly. Every

[01:04:42] Christin: single day at bare minimum, um, probably 10 to 15 times a day. And again, not in a morbid way, right? In a really beautiful way.

[01:04:53] Christin: Anytime you step out into nature, I'm going to keep going back to this. You see death every day. And life [01:05:00] all around you. And so you view a tree that falls down. And if you feel connected to that tree, you think I'm, I'm sad for you to be, to be at the end of your life. And I'm so grateful because now you will erode and decay and become a home for animals and become nitrogen for the soil to provide food for me.

[01:05:21] Christin: And so in that I'm grateful for your life. And for your experience. And so I think, uh, I think about it all the time in that way. And more so than probably I, I have in the previous 35 years of my life. But since doing this work with a lot of intentionality, both spiritual and practical, um, yeah, it informed so much of my life.

[01:05:47] Christin: And I really do have those conversations with myself in those moments of how do I want, how, how would this look if I reacted the way I want to in my gut versus reacting the way I [01:06:00] want to, um, as a human that's connected to this other human, or as a human that's connected to this natural world when I die.

[01:06:09] Christin: So it, it creates a lot more, uh, a deeper reverence and mindfulness than, than I've ever known before.

[01:06:17] ck: Got it. So you, you really take it on as a, as a discipline, right? As a discipline, moment to moment, you know, how am I interacting with this person? Does it matter how, you know, this fallen tree, you know, how do I give thanks to it?

[01:06:32] ck: And then you, you really take it on as a moment to moment practice.

[01:06:37] ck: Perfect. Is there anything that you think I should be asking, but I didn't ask anything that you want to touch upon that we didn't, we didn't go,

[01:06:47] Christin: um, you know, what I'm curious about, we touched on grief a bit, but.

[01:06:56] Christin: Do you, do you feel like that's appropriate to tap into [01:07:00] grief?

[01:07:00] ck: Of course.

[01:07:01] Christin: Let's go. I don't know what you want to ask about it, but, um, I, I feel like that's a large part of my practice is, um, about. grief a bit? I don't know.

[01:07:17] ck: Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't even really know how to ask about it other than it's, it's part of the human journey, right?

[01:07:29] ck: I don't know how to even ask this question is, as you can tell, I'm a little uncomfortable.

[01:07:34] Christin: Yeah,

[01:07:35] ck: even asking it because I think, um, maybe it's a resistance of the inevitable.

[01:07:45] ck: But also having witnessed on my friend, specifically my friend who just recently lost his mother, how he's dealing with it with a lot of grace and dignity. I am impressed and in awe of how he's dealing with it. So maybe from a [01:08:00] place of practitioner, how you have seen people deal with grief, maybe that's a good place to start.

[01:08:08] Christin: Yeah. And actually the reason I brought it up is because I actually am curious to know what you witnessed in your friend, how that, how that looked to you, what that, what that grace looked like, um, from a perspective of an outsider. Um, so not to necessarily throw it back at you, but I, I'm throwing it back to you because I just.

[01:08:30] Christin: You had mentioned that earlier, and I'm curious about that piece of what it looked like to you and why it stood out to you.

[01:08:39] ck: I would say part of the normal human conditioning is to sad, but also be angry. Towards. Maybe the doctor, maybe the system, maybe at the person who died, maybe at God, is part of the [01:09:00] normal human conditions, which is totally okay, right?

[01:09:03] ck: But the way that my friend experienced it was just no There was definitely sadness, but there was no blaming, no victimization of any sorts towards the mom, towards the hospitals, because they made a medical mistake effectively.

[01:09:21] Christin: Oh.

[01:09:21] ck: Right. And then or towards the systems or even towards God, just, just being with the waves.

[01:09:31] ck: The coming and going of the sadness and dealing with all the material things that's needed, right? The will, the funeral, the ceremonies and all these things. And then just still being with it all without suppression. Like he was very open about what he's dealing with. But, uh, It was really beautiful to witness.

[01:09:57] ck: I don't know how else to articulate it, you know?

[01:09:59] Christin: [01:10:00] Yeah. Yeah. I, I appreciate just hearing that because I, I often look for good examples of grief in my work of just, um, a lot of people ask about how to grieve well, or when will I be done grieving? Um, and so I always look for stories to be able to share with people on what that process looks like for others.

[01:10:27] Christin: Um, I've experienced my own grief, of course, uh, like many of us. And, um, I think that when I see it done beautifully, it's just all the more reason to give us permission and tools to be able to do that beautifully and gracefully. So, I think one of the things that I talk about in, in grief with patients and families is that obviously there's no, there's no timeline to it.

[01:10:57] Christin: So there's no timeline to those emotions. [01:11:00] In fact, having an experience with grief be, makes you, um, an evolved person because you CK are not just CK anymore. You are CK who knows grief and that is just your new identity and it doesn't mean that it defines you. But it lives with you as part of your, your, your lived experience.

[01:11:21] Christin: And I think what grief does so beautifully and what I encourage people to, to take with them is that it really informs how much it is also a universal experience to have that grief. My experience tells me, um, people share that it feels incredibly isolating because no one wants to talk about it with them.

[01:11:44] Christin: No one, nobody wants to acknowledge it. And so people beat around the bush. And I would, I would express that one of the best things you can do to somebody who's grieving is just to actually identify and talk about with names and with [01:12:00] everything. be so as though you're asking about the new pet that they just got.

[01:12:08] Christin: Ask those questions, explore those realms because um, it's a really beautiful place when you can share grief with somebody else and it allows them to feel like they can share their experience with you too. So a lot of questions that I get is how do I ask these questions to somebody or what am I supposed to say and.

[01:12:31] ck: Can I I want to double click on that? Yeah, you know, let's let's I want to get tactical here. This is important. The typical way of asking this is balances. I'm sorry, this type of words, right? So I want to be sensitive to their grieving process.

[01:12:53] ck: And I want to also let them know that I'm here if they, yeah, I can be a space for them [01:13:00] to express their grievance or, you know, the grieving process. But I also don't want to impose like, hey, now you, They have to share anything with me because now it's obligatory. You know what I'm saying?

[01:13:13] Christin: Yes.

[01:13:14] ck: So, so what is the tactful way and a way to express sensitivity to where they're at?

[01:13:21] ck: Cause I'm here to be of service. I'm not here to pose. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

[01:13:28] Christin: So it is a beautiful question and there is no right answer. Um, I, I'm going to just back up a brief moment and say that, um, You will inevitably say the wrong thing at some point because everybody receives things differently.

[01:13:45] Christin: I was recently at this grief conference and the woman up on stage was, um, very angry. And she said, somebody had asked her a question and she told them, how you, how dare you ask, you asked me [01:14:00] that question. How do you think I'm doing? And I thought, you know, And then in the same, in the same sentence, there was this conversation about people need to understand that I'm still grieving and to have patience and grace with me and taking a big step back and saying, you will mess up, but as a human, remember to have grace always.

[01:14:25] Christin: And what I mean by that is if somebody triggers you in a question, look in, look at them in their eyes and in their heart and say, are they trying to hurt my feelings and be inappropriate, or Are they so uncomfortable and they're just doing their best? So, uh, that's point one, but point two is the majority of people want to talk about what they're experiencing.

[01:14:49] Christin: And something you can say is, first of all, acknowledging that, asking them to, um, be pretty clear with you on what their needs are. and say, Hey, I am [01:15:00] here for you. I am going to walk this journey with you. Please tell me what's too much or too little. But what I know to do is to do X, Y, and Z. And then that gives them permission to share with you like, this is too much.

[01:15:13] Christin: Or can you give me more? Um, Another part of what I'll share is to be authentic to who you are the best medicine the best tool the best Practice the best anything that you can give somebody is you in your in your true essence And when somebody feels that you love them, you're gonna fumble with the words But they'll feel that love and if you say I'm here for you be there for them.

[01:15:39] Christin: Don't just say I'm here for you Okay, you're doing fine. Well, I'm gonna go off to this great place Conversation that's a lot more comfortable talking about stocks and vacation for next week, be there with them in that, if they, if you tell them that you will be there with them in that. So I think that authenticity piece goes a long way and people truly want to talk [01:16:00] about it and sometimes they don't know how, and they don't know who feels safe.

[01:16:03] Christin: Um, and, um, there's this concept of therapeutic presence. And I, I'll just say that that's, that's what I would, that's the biggest takeaway is to have that therapeutic presence. And lastly, to allow for silence because there's a lot of sacredness that comes from sitting in silence with somebody who's in grief, just physically being there and being quiet with them.

[01:16:28] ck: Yeah. Thank you for that. You know, our, uh, men's work, we say that witnessing adds. Validity and credence to what's happening. So we don't even need to say anything literally just being up with us to their internal process is quite sufficient. So thank you for sharing this and then break it down for me what it, what it takes to support another who is going through the grieving process.

[01:16:59] ck: Um, [01:17:00] Kristen, it's been really great speaking to you. Um, I've learned so much. Is there anything else, last words that you wanted to say to anyone who is watching our conversation?

[01:17:11] Christin: No, other than thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for asking. And thank you for being here in this journey with all of us.

[01:17:20] ck: Let me just take a moment to acknowledge you, Kristen, I really appreciate the sincerity and earnest of the work that you do. I appreciate, you know, not only just your professional medical background, but also the spiritual practices that you have collected all over the world, that you're practicing very, um, intentionally from moment to moment to moment, so that we can embrace this concept, this idea, yeah.

[01:17:49] ck: This inevitable future that's coming our way, no matter what we do, right? Death, but do it in such a way. That's not morbid doing such a way that's enlivening so that [01:18:00] we, every single moment can live life with more purpose, more joy, and more gratitude. So thank you so much for sharing your perspective on the warrior.

[01:18:09] Christin: Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.