My next guest

  • Been a serial tech entrepreneur who has had multiple successful exits (earthweb,,
  • The composer and creator of the immersive musical experience ‘MindTravel’ (has been featured around the globe over 500 times with over 100,000 people)
  • His mission is “Moving People to Purpose Through Music”

Please welcome Murray Hidary.


Topics We Discussed

  • The Benefits of Box Breathing Before Meetings
  • Serial Tech Entrepreneur Changed Career to Become Immersive Experience Creator
  • Use Music to Make Better Decisions
  • Music For Emotion Health Is Like Crossfit For Physical Health
  • Music is Key to Unlock the Hidden Truths of the Universe
  • Getting Yourself Out of the Way & Unleashing Your Creativity
  • Connect Deeper And Intimately With Audiences
  • Comparing Learning Martial Arts & Playing Musical Instruments
  • Music as a Path to Journey Into Our Deep Subconsciousness
  • Duplication Principle to Release Stress, Anxiety, and Obsessive Thoughts
  • Helping Those Who Are Depressed, Grieving, Or Anxious
  • Getting to the Breakthrough Ideas and Decisions
  • Staying True & Attracting Super Fans
  • With Constraint (And Specificity) Comes Freedom
  • Understanding Who My Audiences (And Super Fans) Are
  • Creating Virtual Immersive Experience Since COVID
  • Responsibilities of a Musical Healer to Alleviate Suffering of Others
  • Scaling Immersive Musical Experiences Globally
  • The Heavy Costs of Separating Identities & The Surprising Benefits of Integration
  • Microstep to Integrate Identities Into All Aspects of Life
  • The Benefits of Getting to Know the Person Beyond the Role
  • How Vibrations Create Our Reality & Expand Our Future, According to Quantum Physics
  • What Does Philosopher-Entrepreneur Mean to You?
  • What Does Wealth Mean For You?
  • What’s One Idea That Most Improved Your Life in the Last 5 Years?

Full Episode

The Benefits of Box Breathing Before Meetings

How was box breathing for you before we start our podcast?

Oh, I enjoy very much a very similar to the technique I do on my own.

and really any intentional breathing where we’re purposefully and deliberately paying attention to our breath, is so rewarding and so beneficial. So it’s a great way to ground. Any practice, any meeting we’re about to have. So it was great to do it before we jumped on here. And I recommend it to anyone before meeting, before an important phone call.

it’s really a great way to make sure you’re going into that experience grounded.


Serial Tech Entrepreneur Changed Career to Become Immersive Experience Creator

as you created this experience, was that the intention that you set out to do or was it accidental that you stumbled upon this.

CK. what I do publicly today is what I had been doing privately for myself for many years. So what I call mind travel today, which for some of your audience who may not be familiar with it is an immersive music experience. So as a composer and a pianist, I take participants, groups, audiences through this immersive musical journey, at the piano.

And usually it’s set in beautiful, natural settings, like the beach where you experienced it or in central park or just Epic locations. So we bring together nature music and the collective community.

but for me, Prior to doing it publicly. That was my own practice. I would, sit at the piano and at the end of every crazy, stressful day, especially when I was in my twenties and thirties, building startups and tech companies, at the end of the day, I actually had a grand piano in my office. in New York. but when I had office that they didn’t have a piano, I would do it at home, sit at the piano and I would just play whatever I was feeling out of me. and especially because I was improvising, it allowed for, or whatever I was going through with to just be released.

And that’s really the key thing. It’s just, we all cumulate stress, especially if we are up to a lot in life, If we’re really trying to create something fresh and new and pioneering. Then by nature, we’re going to encounter obstacles. There’s going to be challenges. And so if we’re up to big things in life, that means there’s stress that comes along with it.

And that’s okay. As long as we manage through that stress and we don’t let it overwhelm us or we suppress it. So that’s what it was for me. It was a meditative practice through music. And when I saw the power of it, when I saw what it did for me in my life, both in terms of managing stress and business, as well as personally, just being able to regulate and manage my own emotional state.

I said, you know what? I think it’s time for me to share this with the world. And, that was about six years ago, five, six years ago. and as you mentioned, we’ve now brought it to so many people, so many cities and countries. and, but that’s really the origins of it was what I did for myself. And I saw how effective it was and I wanted to share with others.


Music As a Way to Remind Us What’s Important

so I met plenty of Silicon Valley founders of our time and one of them in particular, he also was raised with the classical music training. And he would deliberately have a keyboard by his bedroom and then use it as a way to remind him not to get into music.

Because he thinks that’s a distraction. So I’m curious to know. So from someone like you, who is a successful entrepreneur and also a very successful musician who were able to merge the two together, what would you say to this entrepreneur who’s listening? Who thinks music is a distraction?

I would encourage him or her to come to a mind travel experience because for me, what this music offers. And again, I wouldn’t classify all music in this category. There’s lots of different kinds of music, just like. There’s a lot of different kinds of food and not all food is good for you, right? Junk food every day. We know the effect of that on our health. If we consume and listen to certain kind of music that may not be fulfilling to us, it’s has a similar effect of distracting us.

And so I think it of course depends on the kind of music, and the intention of the listening. But for me, life is such a noisy place. I mean that literally and metaphorically, there’s so much distraction. There’s so much pulling us in different directions and it’s also just a physically noisy place, especially if we live in cities.

So for me, the music is that grounding anchor to what’s important. So that I could actually reduce that just the noise and find the music through the noise. And again, I mean that literally and metaphorically, when you’re running a company, it’s all about distraction management. you got to really anticipate and filter what’s important. What’s not important. What requires your resources, what doesn’t, where to invest your resources, where to invest your time, how to prioritize. These are all critical decisions. An entrepreneur makes because if there’s not unlimited resources in all those areas, so you have to really pick and choose.

That means you have to separate the signal from the noise. And how do you do that? there’s, approaching it in the right frame of mind is key. And I find that when I’m grounded, In the music I’m in touch with that kind of deepest drive of myself, right? That passion that’s driving me. The reason why I’m doing what I’m doing in the first place, that part of myself, and when you’re operating from that truest part of yourself, then the decisions you make will ripple out based on that Frame of reference. if you’re too easily distracted from other things and pulled in one influential direction or another, you may not be making choices from the right frame of mind, which is that truest part of you that chose to set that course in action to begin with, That part of you that hit that first domino to, get the to start the name, and just to build what you’re building, There was a purity in that there was some beauty in that innocence, in that there was, it was, what about creativity and imagination and making a difference in creating a product or a service that was valuable, that resonated with you and your values?

that was probably part of it, whether you were really aware of it or not. but we can easily get distracted, especially when there’s investment and investors and shareholders and customers pulling you in different directions with the product. It’s easy to get off course. And so tapping back in to that core purity and the mind travel music for me and for many others, as you mentioned, it really just snaps you right back to that pure place of self.


Music For Emotion Health Is Like Crossfit For Physical Health

what Murray is pointing to. And I use a metaphor that I learned from transcendental meditation. They like to use, in terms of consciousness, the surface of the ocean is that with all the waves are happening is at the surface of consciousness. But as you practice meditation, you go deeper and deeper into the deepest part of the ocean then, and over there, everything’s static. You don’t hear any of the noise. You can get to the source of who you are. You can also tap into the source of your creativity as well.

So what murray is pointing to, for him, music is part of the way to drop in, into the deepest source of who he is, his purpose, his creativity, to quiet the mind. Now for four, for you, whoever’s listening, maybe a CrossFit type of activity and moving meditation of some sort like David Goggins style.

burn away the neurotic thoughts through sheer suffering, maybe your thing, but what Murray is pointing to is. Whatever it may be, have a process. So should I allows you to really get to the source of who you are? Is that an accurate reflection of what you said?

Absolutely. and also CK as we started the conversation, right?

This idea of what are you doing as either an entrepreneur or just anyone, what are you doing? What are your practices to downregulate right. To regulate your emotional state? And it, it could be doing a workout. I think that’s a very effective way to get the body in it in a certain kind of releasing certain types of energy.

but in addition to that, our emotional States Also need that, exercising, if you will. So for me playing the piano is like going to the emotional gym, going to the spiritual gem, if you will. And I think both are important. Both are key.


Music is Key to Unlock the Hidden Truths of the Universe

I love that you used music as a way to get to that state of equanimity, I think you were quoting a Beethoven. He said music is the medium to bridge the essential and the spiritual. Can you speak a little bit more about. That part, the spirituality aspect of it, the deepest part of, because I know that you are a huge fan of consciousness as well.

Absolutely. consciousness in the realm of experience is the thing we understand. Least in the universe, which is remarkable. I’m talking from scientific point of view from a physics point of view, from a biological point of view, which is remarkable since. It’s probably the most important thing in terms of the human experience is an experience in consciousness, right?

We are aware of our own experience experiencing, so that in and of itself distinguishes us right from so many other species. And yet we know so little about its mechanisms, right? From a scientific point of view, essentially. All we can truly understand is that when we bring a certain number of particles together, that form these bodies and brains, that critical mass at some point triggers consciousness, and, it’s just a remarkable phenomenon.

And so when we think about that, the human experience, we have the central experience. And what I mean by that in reference to what Beethoven said is. The experience of the world, of the unit universe through our senses. And we have of course, five most common senses. but there’s other senses as well that we have, but essentially we are filtering, the outside world through that.

so our experience of the world is quite literally our own senses interpreting it. And it’s an internal experience. What we see out there is actually happening inside our mind.

Yeah. on this podcast, we call it the external reality and then the subjective reality

that’s right. And ultimately, anything we can state is only subjective reality.

there’s nothing that we can personally vouch for that is other than subjective reality. when we take that from the physical to the emotional. We’re dealing with end with just an extension of that, because everything that we feel emotionally right, is based on certain thoughts and belief systems that we have, certain conditionings and things that kind of from our past.

When we are experiencing our emotional reality, we are also coming at it from a very subjective point of view. Many people think that their emotions are absolute truth. but they’re only one data point they’re only one subjective perspective. That means if they’re subjective. and if we want to be in relation to other people and to the world around us, then by understanding that and having some way to interface with everything around us becomes critical.

and then we take it a spiritual order of things and there for me, what that means is a relationship with what is hidden. From those other two realms. Okay. So we certainly can understand There are experiences that are hidden from our senses right. Now for thousands of years most phenomenon like electromagnetism was hidden from us. Now our phones and our computers operate based on that, because we’ve been able to unhide that physical truth of the universe and build tools around those frequencies, same with radio frequencies and all types of other, x-rays and microwaves, And it’s basically unhide trues of the universe and then employing them to our benefit. and I think there are many others, right? you look at the pioneering work of, physicists who are looking at dark energy and dark matter. We have a very vague sense of what those actually are, but we’re very early on in the understanding of those phenomenon.

Yet they comprise combined dark energy and dark matter in the 6% of the universe. So go figure, we think we know so much about the world around us, the universe around us yet. All matter stuff made up of particles like me and you. Is only represents about four to 5% of the universe. So there is so much that’s still hidden to us.

And for me, that’s exciting, right? That means there’s so much to yet discovered, music since it is the language vibration, Is using vibration frequencies to communicate albeit in a very complex multi-layer language allows for that interface, right? Beethoven was talking about right.

Between what we can sense and what we can’t sense. It was just beyond our ability to 2 cents, which means if it’s beyond our ability to sense, then it hints at this inability to express it with language with verbal language, because we can only express with verbal language. What we have access to, right?

Because we would only have words for the things that we have experienced, or we theorized, but if it lies beyond that realm, then how could we imagine verbalizing it? So we need a language that transcends the word and that language that we have as human beings is music.

there’s a wonderful saying that when we lack the words, we turn to the poet, but when the poet lacks the words, she turns to music. And it’s a, it’s a very specific reason for it. language, human language, no matter what language you speak is a linear form language, right? it goes through no one word in front of the other one letter in front of the other one word, one sentence, one paragraph. And that’s how we communicate, and ideas.

Music operates in multiple dimensions, And have more than one instrument playing more than. One melody at the same time, right? We call that harmony counterpoint, polyphony. these are all words that are defining a more complex language.

So it’s literally CK the equivalent. If you were to think about the physical universe, right? We live in a three D physical universe, right? Plus the four dimensions, but three spatial dimensions plus time. imagine you lived in a two dimensional universe. You can only go and write it in two different vectors. Imagine you live in a one dimensional universe.

You can only go right to left. That’s it? that’s what human language essentially is compared to music. You can go from here to there. in human language, it’s linear. But now look at music. You can go in vertically and horizontally in multiple dimensions with lots of different, elements like rhythm and tambour and counterpoint and all these elements that conspire to allow for an infinite amount of human expression beyond which we might have words for. That’s the magic of music.

Yeah, for sure. as you were speaking, what you said is languages is an abstraction of whatever you wish to create. LaoTse said it in the Tao Te Jing,in the opening sentences: if you can say it, it is not the tao . If you can articulate it, thing is not that. This is around it. So I love that you use music as a way to is to portray the multi dimensionality of whatever it is that you’re trying to try and articulate.


Getting Yourself Out of the Way & Unleashing Your Creativity

So when you are creating something in real time, first and foremost for yourself is what’s your intention as you’re dropping in. are you following a emotion or you’re following, on a wave. Or are you trying to, as a Elizabeth Gilbert would say, you’re merely the conduit, you’re trying to get yourself out of the way as much as possible. Can you share with us the subjective experience as you’re composing music in real time?

Absolutely. Playing an instrument, especially like the piano and I’ve played many instruments. So I can relate to lots of them, but the piano in particular, because you’re playing with both hands technically. It accesses the subconscious and the conscious at the same time in a very profound way. when you’re playing the piano, there’s certainly things you can think about in terms of, Oh, I want to try this or do that, play this louder, play this sifter, play this note, play that note on some other level, right?

That’s the conscious level, the surface level, like you described the ocean, you have the surface level of the ocean waves, but then there’s the deeper part from which the mind is playing the piano. And that part is connected at a subconscious level with muscle memory To your body, especially to your hands.

But I say your body, because you don’t only play the piano with your hands, you truly do play with your home with your whole body. Your fingers are the final execution, points, but you’re playing it with your entire being .

So there are wirings between your muscles of your body and your hands and your brain that you may not even be aware of or conscious of.

And that comes from the thousands of hours of practicing and forging, those fiber optic connections. So that means that there are, there’s two kinds of expression that are available to the musician. One is conscious intentional one of I am going to play this song and, play it or even improvise specific ways.

Then there the subconscious, part of it, which is. I’m going to just try to get myself out of the way consciously so that my subconscious can have more fun, freedom of expression. Now, we also know that the subconscious is where most of our emotional States lie, right? We may be able to articulate, If we have some emotional literacy, we may be able to articulate our emotional state in any moment and what we’re feeling. But ultimately emotions are not linear either, right? Yeah. they’re quite multi-dimensional. So that means there’s probably a lot that we’re feeling that we’re going through, that we’re not even necessarily aware of. And certainly we know that is connected with the body as well.

Our emotions vibrate through our bodies, meaning they’re felt and they’re embodied. there’s a wonderful book. the body keeps the score right apart of our experiences in life. and I truly do believe that. And so to the extent that we can vanquish those emotions, process them, absolve them, then we can ease their hold and their grip on the body, whether it’s stress, tension, disease, et cetera.

going back to the playing again, getting out of our own way on the surface level of consciousness means that you’re allowing that already existing connection to sing right. To come forth, to emerge. And there’s very specific things I do to achieve that. and that comes from just a huge amount of practice doing it.

but when I’m not playing a composed piece, meaning, a piece by another composer or something I wrote specifically that I’ve memorized, then when I’m improvising or creating these, what I call real time compositions. It is a composition, but it’s unfolding in real time. Okay. And that allows for the arc to Feed on itself. It’s a feedback loop, I play something and then I’m hearing it and allowing the next part to be informed by that. So that’s about getting out of your own conscious way so that your deeper self can express through the music.


Connect Deeper And Intimately With Audiences

Could you say the sense of touching whatever you call it, the divine , the inner knowing, your muse, creativity. why I want to ask that. because I would say not a lot of people have that intimate relationship with their inner knowing their intuition. but you do because you practice constantly.

if through your language, perhaps we can help people gain more awareness of Oh, is what intuition feels like, Oh, I should listen to this inner whisper a little bit more versus the egoic shouting, up on the surface of the ocean. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. Yeah. and I think there’s two kinds of practicing. I think that we’re talking about here, one is, of course there’s the physical, technical practicing of the music, which I’ve done a lot of, but then there’s the practice of listening to our emotional selves and forging that connection.

That’s something that is not as readily available for many people, because it’s easily suppressed. Why? Because it may be difficult to deal with. It could be, first of all, could be just very distracting. it could be very painful. And so people tend of course, to want to avoid pain and distraction. So they distract themselves from any emotion that may be unsettling. And so most people lead a life of distraction. cause it’s easy to forget about what you may be feeling and going through, if you just binge watching TV or if you’re going out and having drinks with friends or drinking on your own or doing things that are potentially more unhealthy.

So if we can cultivate the practice of self reflection, Which simply means being in a state of listening to yourself, Without judgment, just “I’m just observing and listening to what is arising within me” and just accept it as it is not trying to change it one way or the other, but just allowing for it that cultivates the muscle of vulnerability.

Now to the extent, first step is of course feeling it yourself. The second step would be to share it, If you can share it with a loved one, a partner, a significant other, a friend, then you’re now really hardening that muscle in a very positive way. and developing the strength of that muscle and the flexibility of that muscle.

Because vulnerability, in addition to being very healthy for any of us, as in terms of just processing and releasing your own emotions, also forges, better connections and relationship and more intimacy. And ultimately I think that’s something that we’re all striving for is more intimacy with others.

And with ourselves now, the music brings all that together in one experience. Because if you don’t have the vulnerability or the emotional intimacy, it’s very difficult, not very difficult. It’s impossible to communicate that to others. So for me, it was about cultivating both practices of being able to technically play, but also being able to express what I’m going through, what I’ve been through or what I can conceptualize emotionally and spiritually to transmit that and translate that. Yeah. So you must, you have to have both, if you’re going to move people.


Comparing Learning Martial Arts & Playing Musical Instruments

What you just said reminded me of a Ted talk made by one of the conductors of the Boston Philharmonic. His name is Ben something, and it was demonstrating through a piano. the learning process in the beginning of the piano playing is very mechanistic, right?

You’re just hitting the notes. And then you learn about the mechanics. Then the piano became a part of you as a part of your self expression . You can express your whole being through the piano, I think that’s exactly what you just described is important to learn the mechanics. Bruce Lee didn’t just say alright one I am going to do the three inch punch. He practiced thousands of times the kicks and the moves and the basic, the fundamentals. Then he can let the muscle memories enter his body. Those punches, those kicks are part of his self expression as an artist. Is that an accurate reflection or what you just said?

Absolutely. And, you take the Bruce Lee example and I, I trained in martial arts, tremendous actually when I was younger. Yeah. Wow, cool. Because it was such a beautiful, it’s a beautiful art form. I trained Akido was my particular form, but regardless what’s beautiful about it is that yes, you train in the specific techniques endlessly.

You repeat them and repeat them and repeat them till they’re part of your physical movements, but then when you’re in an encounter, So now you’re in relationship with either an assailant or your practice partner right now, you’re right in a forced improvisational relationship, They’re not necessarily going to attack you with the thing that you trained with specifically on Thursday, right? They’re going to attack you how they attack you. So it’s about your improvised response, combining both your conscious surface level, as well as your deeply ingrained subconscious, the bonds you created with your body in terms of reactions.

It’s about both together. Yeah, music is the same. It’s the same way in the case of music, w the feedback loop does not include someone, throwing a punch at you. it depends on the concert, but, it typically doesn’t, but, it involves the music herself giving you the feedback loop.

So you play the note, the hammer hits the string vibrates, the air molecules, hit your ear and the, and then the process goes, so it’s truly like a wave in the ocean that you’re surfing on. and then it’s about how do you stay on that, on that sweet spot of the wave.


Music as a Path to Journey Into Our Deep Subconsciousness

had talked about using music as a way to fine tune your own emotional response. I wanted to touch more on that. So part of it is hearing the music. The music is a catalyst to see, Oh, how do I feel in particular way when I hear this note or this series of notes. And then first of all, acknowledge for yourself the listener.

Yeah. And once you feel that, and you can jot notes or take, journals, or you can think about some memories that you just thought about Oh, okay, there’s this comfort or this mixture of emotions that I feel as I’m hearing this music, and this is actually what a lot of your testimonials are on all about. Like really brought them back in some memory that they’ve totally forgotten when they were a little child. and they are able to now articulate their memory to another person. And not also as part of the quote unquote purging process, the emotional process.

And then from that, then you can go deeper and allow that. Yeah. the somatic. Trauma or stress to move away because now they have acknowledged this thing that has happened. And now that can move away. Is that accurate reflection of what you said?

Yes. Yes. And even when you think about just more traditional meditation, in lots of different meditation traditions, the experience may not always be, Oh, I’m just feeling very relaxed and calm sometimes the opposite when you’re in an authentic meditative state.

What happens is that you’re actually, again, allowing for stuff to rise up right. From beneath the surface of the ocean so that it can rise up and release. the music operates in a very similar way. it provides the context, it creates this container with which people can journey into the subconscious, this in a very effective and powerful way very quickly.

within seconds, within minutes, they are very deep into other realms of self reflection. And that can take on a whole host of experiences depending on where the person’s at. For some people it can manifest as memories that rise. I certainly have had many memories by the way. I it’s different for me when I play them.

When I actually just listen to the recording. so I consume mine travel in the same way that. Other participants do, just not when I’m playing it. so it’s a different experience for me when I’m playing it. But when I’m just listening to it, whether I’m driving or whether I’m, lying down and having my eyes closed and going on the journey, it could bring up memories that, I just haven’t thought about again, because music through its patterns and through its mechanisms can actually remind us of these memories.

And access different parts of the brain because of those neural firings. so it’s very good at that. also it can allow for the release of these emotional States because it provides that emotional language that we may not have been able to give it, verbally. And so now we find ourselves actually in feeling.

the music is making us feel this it’s allowing for this feeling this to take place. And then that triggers a process of self inquiry into what’s coming up. Can I articulate why I’m feeling, what I’m feeling? and, maybe you don’t need to maybe just feeling it as enough. and that’s something too. You may not know why. it could be something from a long time ago. I’ve had people tell me that, the memory associated with an emotional state could have been from 20, 30 or more years ago. so who knows the mind is very complex and it’s very mysterious.


Duplication Principle to Release Stress, Anxiety, and Obsessive Thoughts

I want to share with you, Murray, one of the most powerful principles that I’ve come across when it comes to release, is this principle called duplication. So the person that introduced this to me, basically saying that, you know how sometimes you have. a jingle or some piece of music that just loops in your head over and over again, you can go off like it’s and it’s maddening, right?

You’re like, how the hell do I get rid of this thing? It’s just playing over and over. Yeah. easiest way to actually get over it is you’ve you actually listened to the whole song from beginning to end and then pay attention to it. Because he essentially saying it’s an open loop that your mind is trying to close and you can’t close because missing a bits and pieces of it.

so how do you actually do duplication when it comes to some past trauma or stress or memories or some psychosomatic thing that your body takes on? our subconscious. consists of mental images, thoughts, emotions, and body sensation. So as you experienced some kind of a triggering event that incites some kind of memories that you have, go back and duplicate what you experienced, the image, thoughts, feelings, emotions, and body sensations, and once your brain registered and are able to close the loop, this thing disappears altogether.

So I think what you provide is essentially, a catalyst to trigger some of these surface level and you go deeper and deeper into more deepening experience in life, then we’ll allow those neurotic thoughts to go away.


Helping Those Who Are Depressed, Grieving, Or Anxious

That’s beautifully said CK very well said. I tend to think about it like I want to meet the listener where they’re at. And then raise them up. So if someone is in, a different go situation, a sad state, a depressed state, a grief state, whatever it is, I want to meet them right where they are. Now some people might say, why don’t you just going to make them feel worse?

If you have you play music, that’s feeding into that. And my experience, this is exactly the opposite to your point, which is meet them where they’re at. Then there’s a resonance. There’s a relate-ability. And then from there together, you slowly gently rise up to the surface. Okay. That’s what worked for me in challenging life situations.

and I imagine it works for others. Certainly they do say that.


Getting to the Breakthrough Ideas and Decisions

could you share with this, the correlation between letting go of these surface level neurotic thoughts and keep going deeper and deeper in gaining access to big breakthrough ideas that’s already within you. Can you speak a little bit more about how this is correlated?

yeah. the moment we can disassociate from the incessant thoughts that we have, the more freedom is available to us. So what I mean more specifically by that is. And I’ll say it the opposite way. If we purely identify with the thoughts that we have, then we are subject to them. It starts by definition, whatever those thoughts are.

Okay. And unfortunately, a lot of our thoughts for lots of reasons are not necessarily the most helpful ones to getting where we want to get to. So the moment we’re able to create some space between the flow of thoughts and our observation of them, as opposed to our identification of it, to them. it’s a space that’s created and we become observers of the thought That in and of itself is a game changer and it’s something that some people can do. Some people can’t. I think the people who can’t do it either haven’t had the experience or been led through the experience, or just. Can’t make the leap to understanding fully that since they’re thinking of it, then it must be their identity that’s thinking of it. Okay. But there is something else that’s available through self-inquiry self-reflection, which is that the the you that is thinking is not necessarily, this is the tricky part, for most people. But what does that make available? even if you just where to approach it, Initially as a game, With somebody and you say, look okay, I get it. It’s really hard to wrap your head around that because you think you are thinking it and you have the sense that you’re in here somewhere, like right over here somewhere behind your eyes. So I get it. we’ll just play a game and imagine, What would it be like? if you, if that wasn’t you, right. And you didn’t listen to everything that particular voice was saying. And certainly didn’t believe what that voice was saying. what becomes available. suddenly this is whole kind of dimension of freedom that becomes available because if that voice is saying, Oh, don’t start that company because, Oh God, it could fail. Or, don’t take that investment from that investor, because what lose the money and just be that’d be so difficult to deal with. don’t take friends and family money for your startup idea, because if you, if it doesn’t work, you can have to see them all the time. And it’s going to be embarrassing. there’s a lot of different thoughts that come through now. Ultimately, a lot of those spots are probably would be helpful, but if we don’t identify them, we can push them aside and move forward from a very different place. So they give us a lot of emotional freedom as well.

Where our emotions are or the way we feel about things are typically locked in right to the way we think about them. So that means that our emotional state and how we show up every day in the world with our friends, with our families, with our colleagues, If we identify with that voice is going to be, controlled by that.

So it provides very few degrees of freedom, right? If you’re in lock step with your inner voice, you detach from that inner voice. Now you observe the thoughts happening and now you have choice in, okay, I get that’s a possibility, but I’m going to choose this direction. And that, that really will change your life. And when I say change your life in every area, in every respect, because suddenly you’re steering the ship with much more agency than you were before.


What Stops People From Executing on their Breakthrough Ideas

I wanted to drill in on the point of getting to that breakthrough idea. Yeah. So can you say a little bit more about, yes. Now you have agency now and now you recognize that you’re not your thoughts, you’re not your emotions. How does that get them closer to that breakthrough idea that they want?

Okay. So let’s talk about that now, typically for someone to have the kind of drive and motivation to not to have the idea. Cause I want to also create a distinction between having an idea and actually executing on it. Okay. a lot of people have ideas. Very few people actually take the steps to make those ideas come into reality.

And typically the reason why they don’t. And if you were to list the top reasons, you’ll see that they’re all based on adherence to that identification with the mind and the thoughts that’s going through. the person is, just self-talk and there’s a lot of fear usually involved in that Oh, why should I do that? Google is just going to copy it, do it, put me out business, That’s a classic one. Or. I don’t have the time I have three kids. there’s no way. There’s no way I could have the time to do that. Oh, he’s very reasonable by the way.

how to make money as a full time musician.

Yeah. So tricky and insidious about them is that they all seem quite reasonable. And, that kind of makes sense, right? If you were having a conversation with a friend or an advisor Or mentor. you wouldn’t sound crazy is my point. You’d sound quite reasonable.

And I think that’s part of the point is that if we’re going to achieve something new, You’re talking about a breakout idea, It’s going to take not only a S a state of mind, that’s unreasonable. It’s going to take an attitude to move forward. That is also unreasonable to achieve something unreasonable, which is the situation you’re setting up for me in this question.

Which is, I want to do a breakout product, right? If you said to me, Oh, I want to create a company, there’s no innovation that just creates something that already exists. And by the way, you could do that. you can say it, I want to create a, a candle company that just makes little candles, like lots of other companies.

And I just want to do it and make a few dollars through doing that. whatever. It’ll take very little time and innovation to actually probably pull that off. But if you want to create something out of the box. It’s going to require a totally different mindset, which is the first part of our conversation, which means you must detach from all the things that will bring you down, because what will get in the way for most entrepreneurs is their own mindset.

Yep. and it’s about being unreasonably persistent, and not taking rejection cause most rejection is reasonable rejection. a lot of companies and investors will reject you on reasonable grounds. that’s just how the world works. And so you just have to be unreasonable to not accept them and just to keep going.

And we know a million stories about how it was the unreasonability of, the writer who was, whose book was turned down by 50 publishers, but kept persisting and found the 51st publisher, the screenwriter who wanted a movie to get made, turned down by everyone, every studio until they got it made, there’s a million stories like this.

and Then we come to, okay, now you want to actually execute the idea and, there’s a principle that I really believe in, which is the narrower we can create our boundaries, then the more freedom we have within that constraint.


Staying True & Attracting Super Fans

here’s a segue to. mindtravel. Yeah. Cause you’re going effectively against the grain. You’re saying, 1)Hey, let’s do a long form format. 2) Let’s not entertain them. I want them to get in touch with themselves. it’s very new niche. I like it. I love it. I love ceremonies. I like to really, do self discovery. I like seminars. Like I like to lean into my discomfort. I like the peak experiences. Multi-dimensional all that like, I love I’m part of your tribe for sure.

But it’s very niche. It’s not Brittany spear. Pop music.

That’s right. That’s right. Very particular decision.

Yeah. so in the design of it, before you get the traction that you want it. How did you maintain that faith, that confidence that determination to keep moving forward in spite of going against the grain with everything, right? Not entertaining, not pop music, long form. So say more about that, please.

Yeah. And the short answer is I didn’t care now. That’s not a great answer because. On some level, of course you care. but it’s not that I didn’t care, but I cared about less about what people thought, whether they would actually resonate with it.

I was able to not care here because I cared lately over here. Now what’s over here. Is for me music and in particular, the way I practice music, right? Meaning the ritualized framework around music that I have through mind travel. it’s, it’s not like it is religion to me, It is my pathway towards managing myself, my state in the world, my way I relate to others and the way I can conceive and conceptualize the universe right now, I just said could be a very clear definition for religion for many people. How do I regulate myself? How do I operate myself? How do I operate with others?

How do I transact with others? And how do I think about, the existential questions of the universe? That’s what music is for me. That’s my ultimate caring, right? That’s where my caring lies.

So your truth, this is who you are. That’s you wanna evangelize your truth. This is your truth. it’s a path that is very powerful.

and I know it’s worked for me and I’m articulating how it could work for others. Yeah. So that’s why, if it’s, if I put it forth authentically, When I started this, I had only two rules. The first was do it authentically to what worked for me. Don’t chase the experience that others are looking for.

Which meant it was going to be a long form experience, not second experience. It was going to be, all these uninterrupted. it was, the format was quite different than what people were normally going to. So it took someone who had a curiosity and an opening and a tolerance for something new to connect with it and going so narrow, I think allowed me to identify an audience that they show up 10 times not once.

because it is such a powerful experience and it is different every time and we’re different every time individually. So it becomes this pathway.


With Constraint (And Specificity) Comes Freedom

so essentially you’re saying, with constraint comes freedom. So say more about that .

Exactly. if we want to create a company that does something, let’s say let’s take a great example. probably one of the best examples and anyone could use, which is, the company Amazon. Okay. Today it’s a 2 trillion, almost $2 trillion company. a global behemoth that, no one would argue is just, unstoppable.

It wasn’t always that case. And it was only, going back 20 something years that it was a fledgling startup. And at that time, Jeff Bezos started selling only one type one category of products, which is of course books. Yeah. Today it seems crazy. what do you mean? They only sold books? Yes. They only sold books for years.

Now, that is a tremendous constraint, right? He could have easily said, I just want to start selling everything. I see the vision. I see the future. Would it have worked? maybe not, but certainly when you focus so narrowly, right? You find your audience, you find your niche. You optimize your systems, and then you can expand from there.

It’s a great example of how constraint can really allow for more freedom and for tremendous growth. and there’d be lots of examples, like this, when somebody, for instance creates a TV show, you will get a lot of the TV shows the more specific they are about a particular community, a particular life, the more interesting they are because they open up worlds of freedom within that. Think about how many TV shows, right? whether they were about, what was it, six feet under was, about a mortuary family. that’s a very particular situation, not very relatable by most people, but it was a hit TV show.

And you look at so many shows like that are about these very specific, communities or kind of lifestyles that open up world of creative opportunity. for the writer and for the audience

can i ask you a follow up question. what you’re saying is, Hey. Remove the neurotic thoughts as much as possible, Hey, I’m doing this because I want to prove much better parents that I’m smart. that’s inauthentic thought, right? Removed abstraction. Yeah. That’s what I like. And then when you get to a point is of a, I do it because I want to do it. There’s nothing else just because I want to see this thing manifest in the world and you do it right.

But at that point still is still at the space of faith. I think it’s good. I trust in me. I trust in the whoever audience. I think if I like it, other audience like me will probably like it too. I’m going to do it. And when you get to some level of success or audience size, then you can look back and say, Oh, that was a breakthrough idea.

So you don’t look forward and say, this show, this thing, this concert this product is a breakthrough idea. And just move forward. It’s more breakthrough ideas looking back.

Yeah. let’s I mean, let’s go through it a little more deeply, like for instance, why do we want to start something to begin with?

What is the impetus? What’s the drive for the initial reason? Most good or great companies, start with, of course the classic, right? you’re either making something, better, faster, cheaper, all that kind of, stuff, but ultimately solving some kind of real problem that somebody has okay. Where you gotta be solving a problem for someone to be willing to pay for it or to spend their time on it. Or just engage in it. now typically, if you’re just solving a problem, that could be a good business, but what makes a great business is if that solution, if the problem itself relates to a core value that you have.

Okay. with the companies that I had built in the technology world, they all had something in common, which was, they all connected, different kinds of people for different purposes that those communities had right. In the Case of earth web. It was connecting technology professionals to share code ideas, And information to make, to help them get their jobs done faster and better. In the case of, Was actually connecting employers with candidates more officially than anyone had done before. so that. that efficiency was made. with amplify, it was about connecting people who want to learn certain things with the best teachers for that, for that.

and with mind travel right, is purely about connection, right? As the ultimate value of my travel, I happen to do it through music, but I’m, it’s all about connecting with your deeper self. You discussed earlier, and it’s all about connecting with others in community and then following and beautiful balance of the individual and the collective.

That’s the value of that drives mind travel. So if you look at my consistency in expressing my values through my works, my projects, my companies, my expressions in the world, then there’s a consistency there. Okay. Okay. So if somebody has an idea, but let’s say it’s divorced from their true value or, it’s just, doesn’t really resonate with their deepest values.

It’s because they saw a pot of cash, that’s it.

I think they think, it can definitely make money. It’s a winner, Awesome. Yeah. Again, it could be, it could work. It could be good. Yeah, will it have the longevity? Will they have the energy to really see it through? Because I got to tell you when you’re an entrepreneur facing those headwinds and those headwinds are strong.

It’s so good. Easy to get deterred. And the only thing that’s going to get you through to the other side is going to be complete relief pursuit of the goal. in a completely unreasonable way. And that’s what you have to be a little crazy. Yeah. A little nuts too, to do that, to begin with. It’s not for most people, I don’t think it’s for most people.

but for the people who do it’s so rewarding. The challenge, the journey itself is rewarding. it’s not just about the exit or the pay day. The whole thing is beautiful in and of itself. so I think that’s a really critical element is to tie the idea to your value, if there’s a match there, right?

If there’s a good market validation to your idea, and it connects with your values, you have a tiger, on your hands, meaning you have something really powerful that can, that could become something really big, because you have all the right ingredients, in front of you. Yeah. That’s where passion and purpose come from.

if you’re on purpose, what does that mean? If you’re living a life that’s on purpose, right? That means that your values are coincident with your actions. That’s what that means. it’s a very powerful place to operate from.


Understanding Who My Audiences (And Super Fans) Are

so other than being beautiful, what were the common denominators of your superfan?

No, I get one of the treats for me, probably the most fulfilling part is I get to meet so many thousands of people, in so many different countries, cities, cultures, et cetera.

And the feedback is so consistent yet the surface layer of what these people lookalike or what their identity is on the surface. Could it be more different, right? Meaning that they’re from, every walk of life. They’re every age, they’re every sexual orientation. They’re every race, every religion.

it’s so heartwarming because ultimately. What they’re communicating is something that lies deeper than that surface layer of differences. And by the way, those differences are beautiful, right? I mean that people look so differently is beautiful. That people have different faiths is beautiful, that people have different ideas and political persuasions and cultural practices and, languages and food tastes and all that diversity is wonderful.

And part of what makes humanity so incredible at the same time underneath all of that sparkling, glitter and beautiful, multi-dimensional faceted jewels, is this kind of consistent foundation of humanity and it’s an abstract and it doesn’t look like anything except in the way it expresses itself.

And. That unity is something that I feel, and I hear through the words of participants and through their eyes, no matter what else we have our eyes underneath all of this externality, those eyes are the same. And, you can communicate so beautifully through them.

And so that’s really what, what I hear back is, feelings of universal connection, belonging.

So I’m going to push you on that just a bit. I know that, but at the same time, my listeners, they don’t know if they belong right. As part of your tribe as an example. So let me throw some words your way, then you can tell me, Oh yeah.

that’s some of the common denominators. Okay. are they seekers, into, really dive into what spirituality, divinity means for them, are they open minded? Are they adventurous? Is they, do they want peak experiences? are they, spiritually sophisticated, whatever, are any of the words landing or resonant to you?

I’ve experienced, a beautiful range of this. It’s not one specific kind of person, for instance, it’s not just people who meditate. I’ve had many people who show up who have never meditated and are not into meditation. They just don’t want to go into that realm into that world. But what I offer is very accessible.

Because we’re not doing any kind of traditional techniques. You can sit down, lie down, close your eyes and just enjoy the music. So you can have a package full experience without having these in any kind of training and specific meditation techniques. and still yet have a powerful experience. now people who do have deep meditation practices are able to take full advantage of this music and this journey as well.

people that have done psychedelics and are willing to go into that realm. I mean they surely derive tremendous value from it. If someone is not into that at all, they actually can access deeper levels of the mind and consciousness through what the music does in its own way. Every age group, some people are looking to process grief.

okay. a lot of people who come because they’re going through difficult times, the processing, the death of a loved one or the end of a relationship or a divorce or a business not working out or some kind of grieving process. And the music holds that space. for them. So like we talked about earlier, so they can feel it and then take action to move forward.

and and then you have people who, I think I’ve been rated one of the best date nights, where people come and you bring their significant other and just have a very special bonding experience. A lot of different reasons why people come, ultimately. for me, my intention is I want to bring wonder to people.

I want to bring a sense of awe. I want to transport them open up a new perspective, a new possibility from just the subjective experience that most people have like we discussed. So I’m really in that. In that business, If I want to be in the wonder business.

So thank you. And no, that’s a beautifully said if you’re into wonder and awe, this is something for you.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. You’re not into wonder and awe. If you ain’t too boring and ordinary. This is not for you. Got it. Okay, great.


Creating Virtual Immersive Experience Since COVID

so COVID is happening right now, stacked at home. And they’re bingeing watching Netflix because they’re bored or because they’re challenged in many ways.

So I know that in the past you have being quite an innovator in delivering. The my travel experience to silence hikes on the water speakers in a pool or doing it, the beach, doing it in a theater with visuals. doing it at burning man. So are there ways that you’re delivering my travel for someone who is stuck at home? Yeah, be alone, physically, are you thinking about something like that?

Absolutely. CK. So what, when this all came down, for us here in the U S it was, mid March, roughly when things really got locked down and, leading up to that point, I was actually on a tour around the U S which was scheduled to go to 70 different cities, to bring the experience to, I was 10 cities in when we had to stop and I came back to Los Angeles and then we had to regroup and we said, you know what? Let’s figure out the virtual thing. so how many other people? And at first I was skeptical, whether I could create the kind of intimacy and power of connection through just a virtual experience.

but we said, look, we got to try it. And I did it and we ended up doing so many and we now continue to do them because while it’s different, there’s a moving power in it. so there’s two kinds of experiences that I’ve been doing online. The first is, the live piano concerts, musical journeys that I do from my home here.

And I get, first of all, I get to play on my Steinway piano, which I don’t get to tour around with. So it’s a real treat to play on my favorite instruments. So people get to hear that and experience that in a very high quality way. so there’s that. But I also do the silent walks. So these walking meditation now, while we’re not doing it physically together, I do them via, everyone has their phone with their headphones and I’m guiding it and you can watch the video and then you’re walking in your neighborhood.

So you go to the beach, you go to the park, wherever you are, wherever you live in the world. And we do these and hundreds of people are joining from all places in the world and walking in their respective locations yet we’re still all walking together, synchronously or asynchronously synchronic. Wow. At the same time live, we’re doing it live.

yeah, that’s our, our phones enable that, So I need to do them through, IgG live or through zoom, so we do them live and people sign up for it and then there’s a certain time and we go, and then you just walk in your neighborhood wherever you can safely walk. and everyone should be getting out.


Responsibilities of a Musical Healer to Alleviate Suffering of Others

part of my epiphany in doing medicine journeys is wow. It’s really challenging to live a life as a human regularly. It takes a lot to be a healer because now you’re carrying out somebody else’s burden as well as part of a way to help them heal. So if in my mind what you are taking on. Maybe not exactly as a healer, but like a semi healer, so to speak, You’re also helping people healed overcoming trauma and depression these things. So is there a weight of man, I need to really do this with as much sacredness as possible, such that I can help these people as much as I can.

Oh, absolutely. I, I get the gravity of the suffering that people show up with.

So I’ll say that again. I truly get like how serious and the gravitas With which people are experiencing, suffering and show up at an event of mine physically or virtually. And I take that very seriously. And my intention is to do my best as a human being to help shepherd that into a place of resolution or at least a pathway to resolution, at least showing another perspective that could be available to that person.

Right through the music, through the experience, through nature, through all the elements that come together to conspire to do that. so it’s my own training, right? Whether it, I’m a certified grief counselor as an example, right? most, certified meditation teacher, as an example, I’ve put in the work and the training.

So I have as many tools as I can have in order to show up the best and most authentic way possible. For the participants in the group, especially when we’re doing, more intimate retreats as an example, right? yeah. We started doing that. and it was just so successful because we got to dive in, for several days into these ideas, into the philosophies that drive this, because you can bring those into your life in such a powerful way.

and we’re experiencing and we’re releasing and we’re just going, going through it at the same time. So it’s very ontological. It’s very, experiential and at the same time, we’re also learning tools that we can take forward into our lives, with us.


Scaling Immersive Musical Experiences Globally

in my mind, you are curating a transformational experience that dissolve away then neurotic thoughts as well as shifting their core identity of how they relate to themselves. Yeah. That’s a beautiful journey.

And then you’re not just providing music. And also now you’re layering on top of it a lot of your philosophy, a lot of other ontological tools and you may have encountered or develop yourself. So I think this is really beautiful. So the question I have for you is I know that in some of the podcasts you had talked about in the beginning part.

When you develop, mind travel is all about self expression. I’m just going to do it because I believe in it. Now you’re at the expansion stage. So put on your entrepreneurial hat. How could you see this as a platform, to expand the scale, the impact that this could potentially have to as many people as possible.

I need to make more of me.

I joke, but in a way, not really we already have, for instance, a bunch of incredibly talented teachers. they’re meditation teachers primarily, and some of them do breath work. Some of them do visualization. Some of them do, various techniques. they’re all great at what they do, and they want it to have the added dimension of the mind travel music to really facilitate that journey for people, right? If you do it on its own, right? If you’re taking someone through say a meditative experience or a visualization experience on their own, or a breathing experience on their own, it’s effective. And now you add the mind travel music to it. It’s one plus one is three.

Okay. So that’s what they realized because they had done it themselves. So they actually are what we call mine, travel masters, and they use the music and the headphones and the whole system that we have to facilitate their own groups in their own cities, wherever they are. So we have a bunch of those folks that, kinda we’ve certified and that are doing that right.

And so I, we were open to doing more of that. again, if it’s right, it’s not about scale for scale for scale, cause again, if our purpose is to move people right, to purpose through music, then you know, we want to bring that to as many people as we can, but we have to do it in, in a authentic and consistent way with integrity to the experience.


The Heavy Costs of Separating Identities & The Surprising Benefits of Integration

One would presume I have not come across anyone who didn’t go through any kind of grieving process and the rebirth process. So sharing that going from entrepreneur totally left brain to being a musician totally right brain. Yeah. Share with us that transition. That’d be really great.

I’ll tell you at first, the way I dealt with it, which maybe it was appropriate at the time, but I definitely changed the way I dealt with it.

So I’ll take you through at first. I really did compartmentalize the two. Okay. The entrepreneurial side of me that was expressing itself through, various companies was really divorced from the music side of me. And, and yes, while I had a piano in my office, again, it was just my own personal thing.

It was not what I was talking about with people. so if I was in a business meeting, I would really just focus on. The business stuff, and if I was doing a side project with some musicians, I was composing for, I didn’t really talk about the, the business stuff I was working.

I just really kept the two worlds separated. part of that was, I felt like one world wouldn’t would not have an appreciation for the other. And therefore I would be potentially taken less seriously. My credibility would be diminished in some way, if the two worlds commingled and I did that for a long time.

And the impact of that I will tell you was it created this rift within me. And it create a dissonance within me as opposed to a consonance, It created this dissonance within me. And if you have like music, if you have dissonance going on for too long, it really doesn’t sound good. And, it’s okay for a little while it creates tension, but unless it’s resolved, it can really be a problem.

And it created this almost schizophrenia rift within me, that. That was not only challenging, but I think it affected my own identity and made me feel unseen. It made me feel less seen by others because in almost every context by definition, they were only seeing half of me. Did you get that right?

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. If you want to feel connected to someone and you want to feel understood by someone and you want to feel like you’re intimate with someone you can’t hide half of you. You have to have your whole self integrated. That’s what being an integrity means. You must be integrated.

When I finally realized that I started to integrate the two.

Hold on before, was there a incident like a tipping point for you to say, Holy shit, this is this dissonance. I’m not willing to tolerate anymore. Can you share that incident if there is one.

It’s not a specific moment, but it was more like, you know what, I’m just going to give this a shot.

Cause it feels so bad to keep it separate. So I just started doing it little by little and not only were people. Cool with it. They embraced it thoroughly. there’s companies I invested in or were part of that when I go to different cities, the customers partners, people that I met in regards to those companies come to the shows.

The mind travel shows now because they’re just like, look, we go to a million business dinners and it’s always the same boring conversation. We go to dinner with you and we’re talking about symphonic music and we’re talking about meditation and we’re talking about conscienceness, right? So it’s interesting.

I want to underline this a bit. so guys, if you’re thinking about this as a quote, unquote dissonance or a weakness, really hear what Maria is saying. This is now an asset.

It’s an asset. Absolutely. The conversation you’re going to have are going to be more multi-dimensional, right? It’s not going to be the same run of the mill. Oh, what is your app? Do? What does your app do? Who’s your developer? Oh my God. It’s so boring. Okay. So if you want to stand out like who, if you go, if you want to do a deal with a, okay, you want to do a deal with Apple, now you go meet them.

You can meet someone from there. Okay. People are meeting everyone. Okay. Everyone wants to do a deal with them. Who are they going to do a deal with? They’re going to do a deal with someone that they have the same conversation a thousand times a day with, or they’re going to do a deal with someone that kind of surprises them in some interesting way.

that’s literally been my experience is that when I start to bring in these other aspects of my life, and show this multidimensionality. Then there’s more, relate-ability, there’s more intimacy. There’s more connection. And ultimately, no matter how virtual or big the world is, ultimately business is still personal.

I think it always will be it’s about relationships.


Microstep to Integrate Identities Into All Aspects of Life

it’s one thing to say. Yeah, just go on and be yourself. good luck to you. May god be with you. So Oh, that’s great in concept, but how the hell do I say, knowing what you know now? Yeah, could you recommend them a tiny step that they could take on?

Absolutely. Look, I’m an extreme example because I actually have a whole separate career in music, it’s I developed it to such a large degree, but everyone has some quirky parts of their personality. They have some hobby, they have some interest, they have, something that makes them unique as a human being that they wouldn’t even think.

To talk about in a business context, right? It could be the kind of food they like to cook. or even the type of food they like to eat, certain languages or cultures. It could be something from their own upbringing. Because especially in America, we are such a milled of cultures that like, by definition, when you’re dealing with international companies and tech companies, especially, you can have people from all different walks of life.

what. What about bringing up something from your own culture that could be unique and interesting, right? Or some particular hobby that you have maybe you’re into, knitting or you’re into a woodworking or sculpting, right? Whatever it is, painting, we’re writing poetry.

Everyone’s got something that they’re interested. Maybe they’re learning to play the guitar and they’re, so they talk about a piece of running on a guitar and that sparks a whole conversation about. music, that’s a great way to connect with someone, find points of connection through culture, through hobbies.

and everyone has that. It’s not, you must be the world’s best at that thing. Not about that at all. it’s just about finding points of connection. Yeah. Showing your personality, showing you the different facets of you, not just your, business side, not just your entrepreneurial side.

Yeah, for sure. And really, I wanted to underline this a bit to what Maurice is pointing to. This is the reason why noble warrior podcast started. Cause I’m interested in, on certain topic. I’m intensely curious about what everyone else is doing. I’m very curious about the meta learning process, right? How they think about the problem that arrived to their conclusion. And for a lot of people, that’s not interesting to them, but I’m interested in that. So I want to have conversation with other people who would want to talk about it and it gives me a great excuse to, Hey, Murray, could get on a podcast with me and, or Oh my God, you have a podcast. What is it about that? It is a great conversation with starter.


The Benefits of Getting to Know the Person Beyond the Role

CK, you just sparked another thought, which I’d like to share. If you want someone to think well of you and be in a relationship with you in business or any other kind of relationship, then the best thing you can do is show interest in them.

Okay. Not as the role that they are. Okay. let’s really understand this, not as the role that they represent, meaning they’re the vice president of distribution at Apple, or, whatever, like they’re going to have a title or some kind of role. And obviously you’re interested in them because of, what they can do for your company. And that’s okay.

But they’re still a person, so let’s make sure not to dehumanize them to just their role identity. but get to know the person behind the role. They’re not just the vice president of distribution. Okay. Whatever, they’re a human being with all kinds of challenges and life issues and interests and hobbies and all kinds of things.

So just get to know them a little bit, be curious about them. So in addition to sharing about yourself, which is great, be curious about them and see if you can draw them out a little bit, right? Not just like when you get on the phone with them, we’re on a zoom with them. Oh, how’s the weather where you are.

Okay. Do you want to start the conversation that way you’re welcome to, but. 99.9% of people do that. And that’s how every business call starts. Oh, where are you going? Oh, that was the weather. Oh, is this Oh, is that right? it’s just ridiculous, but what if you can go in a different direction, right?

Which is, Oh, are you cooking anything interesting during COVID times these days, or you, or, something around that? Like how have you found interesting ways to work out. When you can’t go to the gym, what are you like? What’s your routine? Oh, this is what I do. really, you do that.

That’s a pretty interesting way. Great idea. So right. It can spark new lines of conversation that create connection, and then you’ll get to the business stuff, but you’re getting to the business as two human beings in relationship versus is like two roles.


How Vibrations Create Our Reality & Expand Our Future, According to Quantum Physics

I want to ask you a very esoteric question. One of the talks that you had talked about vibration impacts our reality in this. This is, the little metaphysical idea and in my mind, the way I articulate is yeah. there’s the subject reality. And then there’s the object reality. the outside reality impacts my subject reality in likewise.

I can also create something that also impacts reverberates to the external reality as well for everyone else. so I’m curious to know how you interpret or how you create new reality through music. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. And on some level we can get it. We can get to it another time. I would even challenge the notion that there is an objective reality.

I would actually challenge that notion, because objective reality, really what you’re saying is the consensus of many subjective realities. Yes. Yeah. That’s actually what it is. It’s not truly objective reality, Because for instance, it was a neutrino. Okay. Trino particle. I would be flying through this desk and the whole earth for that matter, without thinking that there was anything there.

That’s right. It would just be just empty space for me.

That’s it’s absurd. Okay. There’s a desk here. I see it. I feel it. I touch it. Yeah. Only because our subjective experience collectively is such that yes, this is a hard surface and we can’t put our hand through it, but that’s not the reality for everything, right? Yeah. In any case, that’s a very fine, fine point, in terms of vibration.

there’s a wonderful phenomenon, especially with music that when you gather people together in a theater, in a hall and I’m playing music, or any musician, it turns out that the brainwave frequencies that each participant in the audience has, right? They’re each different because we each have our own brains generating electric impulses, Which are brainwave frequencies. And each person will have their own frequency different from the person next to them. After a certain amount of time listening to the same music, there will be a gradual coherence. Between all the participants in the room where their brainwaves will start to vibrate and admit frequencies at the same frequency level, something pretty remarkable.

It’s pretty incredible. So there is this ability to influence each other and our surroundings through frequency. So when we start to see the whole world and the whole universe as an infinite spectrum of frequency, which is truly what it is. That’s what’s happening. That’s all of it. Everything, whether it’s physical hard matter, liquid gas, everything around us.

If it’s made up of particles, Or even if it’s not, if it’s well, arguably even electromagnetism, Light are both waves and particles. Yep. All of it is frequency. just different frequency. Some of it, we can sense most of it. We can’t. Correct. And so when we start to think of it that way, then everything’s about manipulating and being in relationship with frequencies, haven’t been, that’s why music is so powerful.

So with that understanding frequency effectively influenced slash create our reality. How are you using it as a way to powerfully bring forth and shift your reality? Can you share with us maybe a few, rituals or prayers or intention setting type things as a way to shift your external reality?

Yeah, absolutely.

So if we take. If we take a lesson from quantum physics, from quantum mechanics, We understand that at the fundamentals. So layers of the universe, all things are probabilistic waves. Okay. All that means for people listening. Don’t I haven’t studied quantum physics or all we have to understand is that everything, every particle is in an uncertain state.

And it’s in many locations at the same time and some locations are more probable for it to be there than others locations. Okay. Now, if we extrapolate that, okay. Metaphorically, if we extrapolate that up to our level of experience, we can envision the future as this endless. Possibilities. These endless probabilities, some futures are more likely than others, right?

Some futures are less likely than others. And it operates on this curve just like quantum wave functions do just quantum probability. And as we move through life, We’re actually like we talk about it in the quantum world. We’re collapsing the wave function. When we do that in the quantum world by observing the interactions well in the real world, by living by our actions, moment to moment we’re collapsing the life wave function, right? The past, we know what happened. There’s not a probability of the past, right? Because there were many probabilities and we collapsed that down. When we look to the future, we can actually take it in as I like to visualize this huge field before me with different pathways. And each of these pathways is a different future that lies ahead for me. I can choose this direction, that direction. It’s almost an infinite number of them. And, for those who and for the people who believe and many physicists do believe that there is this notion of multiple universes where each one of our futures branches off into its own universe where it plays out.

but if we start to really embrace that idea, it can open up more choice for us. And it’s almost like we start to resonate on the level of the future that we want to call it. And we don’t even have to think of that as a physical phenomenon. it’s more an intention one because for most people, their future is actually quite narrow.

if they don’t have this kind of awareness than their future, they’ve already resigned their future. typically because of fears and because of conditioning, social conditioning, they’ve already said, Hey, this is the pathway I’m going to take. They’ve set that in motion. So there’s really, there will be very few surprises for most people in their life.

like COVID or something that’s so outside the realm, The personal life, it would be very little that would surprise them. Yeah. And again, because people like stability and they like to have that kind of assurance, in life. And they go down that path, but there’s another reality that’s available for people, Where we truly open up to many different possibilities some more probable than others. So how are you using vibration or music or intention as a way to shift the probabilities of, you’ll fit more favorable possibilities versus the less favorable. So those, yeah, so they literally are frequencies.

So each future is like a certain tilt in the scale. And if I start to think about it, I’m generating brain frequencies that will actually resonate with that future. So that’s the idea behind it. Okay. Is that if I can generate frequencies that can connect with that next future moment, which is only a thought that’s all the next future moment is like what’s the next future moment, but a thought.

Which turns into do a feeling and turns into an action. But what’s the, if you were to look at someone’s future, you’d say, they would have to do a whole bunch of actions to achieve that. Yeah. what are those, if you were to reverse engineer it, the last action they needed to take had an action proceeding it and actually proceeding that and an action proceeding that, and all those actions had some kind of belief and thought behind them. Yup. So how do you start that chain? You have to create a certain chain of thought that cascades and that’s what intention is. That’s exactly what intention is. I see. Okay. Intention is I am going to manufacture a thought that will trigger a feeling which is going to trigger an action.

And by the way, that way of being by showing up in the world, that way will trigger other people’s actions towards you. And that’s why people say, Oh, when you create that intention you’re attracting or manifesting things into your life, you don’t have to think of it as some metaphysical. you don’t have to.

I actually don’t. You don’t have to, you can simply think of it as, say, take a second simple example. If you show up to a meeting with someone, A friend or a business person, whoever partner doesn’t matter, anyone, and they’re sitting like this.

like aloof detached. They’re just like out of it, what’s your energy going to be like, mirroring exactly. You’re going to be forced into that energy, unless you’re just and certainly even if you maintain your own composure, Yeah, go out of your way to want to, I don’t know, like connect with that person.

You’re like, Oh, this is like weird vibes. It takes a very special Dalai Lama level, magnanimous level of the person to want to vibe with that person. Okay. Now take the opposite example. An example is you show up in a room and someone is just Hey, it’s great to meet you. Great to see you.

Good to see you again. Or if they’re a friend, you jumped right back into the flow of things and there’s a positivity. There’s a connection purpose in you, right? They see a drive, they see a willingness, a curiosity, all of the things we talked about, now how would I want to react if I just met someone like that, I want to show up. So now what happens? We’re up leveling each other. It becomes a create a creative loop. So now possibility gets created. So if you want to create something with that person, you can do that. You can be like, Hey, why don’t we try this? Why don’t we do that? Why don’t we do it? And now things happen.

I just got the goosebumps thinking about it. that’s just a, that’s how shit happens.

So guys, I want to underline what Maria was saying here. we could easily go into the yeah. Esoteric the spiritual, but really, if this is the nature of human beings, we reciprocate on each other’s behaviors.

when someone else is as excited as joyous, we get excited when you’re excited, when you’re joyous, other people get excited and it, and vice versa when you were sad or angry the energy reverberates to everyone around you. So it’s, it could be seen as esoteric, but really in my mind, this is as tangible as material as it is this human beings is the nature of human beings.


What Does Philosopher-Entrepreneur Mean to You?

who comes to mind when I say philosopher, entrepreneur?

Oh my gosh. Philosopher, entrepreneur. Yeah. Actually one of my closest friends, who met some people may know, he’s a bestselling author, but his name is Duff Seidman. And actually he wrote the book how, which is a great book. And he also started a company called LRN, which does phenomenally well, and it has trained millions of employees, of companies to do the right thing.

So he’s a moral philosopher by training. Having studied at Harvard and UCLA and Oxford, I think as well. and then he started a company that actually brings ethical behavior to the corporate world. Wow. Both phenomenally well in one, existence, it’s very impressive. And his book, how is, tells the story of it.


What Does Wealth Mean For You?

you’ve have had money. then also at one point in your life you didn’t have money knowing what you know now what’s your definition of wealth.

I would define wealth as having the realization that you have everything you need to do whatever you want.


What’s One Idea That Most Improved Your Life in the Last 5 Years?

in the last five, six years ever since your transition, what new belief, behavior or habit has most improved your life?

Let’s see. I would say that, this understanding that we are not, we are not our thinking mind exclusively. It Is it’s just the biggest game changer. There is, and. The moment that we find that liberation there’s a whole new existence that opens up to us. and it’s that identification with the story with the narrative of our lives. Again, this is another way of saying the identification of our thoughts, because the thoughts are just a progression of our own story or a narrative, the way we interpret things.

And once you’re able to look around the world, And not interpret everything from your own subjectivity and your own perspective, but you’re open to a neutrality to everything. it’s what the Stoics talks about, a thousand years ago. and it’s, it opens up such freedom and liberation to just seeing things as they are not, as we see them, it’s a big difference between the two.


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