Eamon is the creator and host of Life is a Festival, a podcast promoting a lifestyle of adventure and personal development through the lens of festival culture and beyond.

He serves as VP of Communications at Maya Health, a psychedelic medicine software company where he also hosts the weekly interview series, The Psychedelic Therapy Podcast.

An enthusiast of personal growth and psychedelic healing her has personally experienced many rituals and ceremonies around the world including a traditional initiation with the plant Iboga with the Bwiti people in Gabon, Africa. His commitment to the healing power of psychedelics also led him to become a trained psychedelic peer support sitter with MAP’s Zendo Project.

Prior to joining Maya, he was the Creative Director of Chip Conley’s industry-leading online festival guide and community Fest300.

Eamon is a passionate advocate for men’s work and offers public talks and workshops from mythopoetic men’s work to stand-up comedy on integrating masculinity.

Full Episode


We Talked About

  • How a journey of vulnerability led him to a moment of “naked” courage on stage at Burning Man.
  • Using loneliness to bear and uncover life’s richest treasures.
  • Leveling up through beating the game of life’s final bosses.
  • Airheads (candy) as a gateway drug to entrepreneurship.
  • Love as a currency.
  • How to beat loneliness and raise your self-esteem through the architecture of community.
  • The journey to becoming the oracle of festivals and transcendent experiences.
  • How to harness the genius of others to create your own abundance.
  • and many more




Wisdom Quotes

Whether it's a plant medicine thing or Vipassana or an ashram or whatever it is the experience because you're on a continuum and an unfolding that is continuing to occur. So if I now tell you this happened and that happened, and this is… Click To Tweet Hafiz about the matter of loneliness: don't surrender your loneliness so quick. Let it cut more deep. Let it ferment and season you as few human or even divine ingredients can, something is missing in my heart tonight as my eyes. So soft.… Click To Tweet If I'm able to sit in the desert long enough and by the desert, what I mean is without grabbing on to some form of partnership that validates and reflects me back to myself. If I'm able to sit in the desert long enough I believe that the… Click To Tweet There's something that happens when that grabbing can't grab anything and gives up. Click To Tweet Community building is a weird term. Cause you're not really building anything. You're more just like facilitating connections between people and, associating those connections with a, brand or a entity that then benefits from the… Click To Tweet Not only is it possible to actually have the community that you wanted. But you yourself can actually facilitate it, which is going to put you right at the center of it. And here we go with the loneliness thing, it's like, why am I… Click To Tweet We don't want to be like constantly going and creating bonds. We want to be an environment where bonds can actually strengthen In the context of shared experience. So create the context of shared experience. Click To Tweet But the podcast can't be perfect because it has to come out every week. So the podcast is by its very nature, iterative, and it's not about me and it, is with other people. So all of these qualities made it so much more fun and so much… Click To Tweet Other people actually makes me look better, which is really cool. Like I always thought you need to have a brilliant idea, get up on stage and you'll share your brilliant idea. And everyone will be like, wow, this person is so brilliant.… Click To Tweet My goal as a host is to give enough. Without making it about myself, that my guest feels safe giving of themselves. Click To Tweet What I feel like is if I can model to my guests that I'm trying to go deeper, that I'm trying to find something in myself that may be challenging to reveal. And I encourage them to do the same. Click To Tweet podcasting as good medicine for self-involved people. and me being self-involved is part of why I'm so damn lonely. And then the podcast I don't feel lonely right now. Click To Tweet People want you to listen. They want you to join them in their problem. They don't want to be alone with their problem, but they don't want you to hand them a solution. Click To Tweet You have an emotional bank account in all your relationships. You never withdraw from it. You just invest in it. And then you live off the dividends. Basically, Click To Tweet You can start creating the energy of gifting and abundance. And when you are creating more abundance around you, the type of people who want to be around you are the type of people who are also creating abundance. Click To Tweet As I moved through my life, my primary goal is to release limitations and to expand the potential for myself and those around me. Click To Tweet Nature loves courage. You make the commitment and nature will respond to that commitment by removing the impossible obstacles, dream, the impossible dream, and the world will not grind you under. It will lift you up. This is the trick.… Click To Tweet can I take you out to lunch once a month and learn to be more like you? Click To Tweet The number one value of a good mentor is, that they show you. That you are worth the time of someone who you admire and in doing so, they show you that you can be like them Click To Tweet Openness, isn't the same as courageous vulnerability. If you know that you are going to be rewarded for what you say, even if what you say is very appears, very vulnerable, it's actually not vulnerable. Click To Tweet When we're more courageous and more vulnerable in a real way, we actually can really support people around us Click To Tweet

Transcript By AI

Eamon Armstrong Transcript By AI

Creating a Lifestyle of Adventure & Personal Development Through Festival Culture

welcome to noble warrior. My name is . This is a place where I interview other entrepreneurs about their journey from entrepreneur to commender to King well deconstruct the mindset, mental models, actionable tactics, so that you can go out to build and navigate your own journey and create more impact and fulfillment that you want.

[00:00:24] The last few weeks I've been really contemplating and meditating on what is the mission? What is the brand of noble warrior? I mean, thinking about the hundred of different entrepreneurs that I have interviewed over the last few years, I've been gathering and grappling and, and reflecting on all of the reviews, the guest posts, the conversation that you've had since.

[00:00:48] And of all of the different things that I have. I I've identified some common denominators among all of these extraordinary people. And there are three archetypes of all of the guests, all of the listeners, all of the people that do reviews on all of the people that are connected with me, my own story, that three archetypes that we all go through 

[00:01:11] the first is the warrior. The warriors. Want to make a name for themselves. They're all about optimizing biohacking flow hacking their way. So they can really hone in on their superpower to really make that dent in the universe. 

[00:01:30] And there are the commanders, the commanders are the managers, the team leaders, the visionaries who people rely on to help set the vision and get things done. And these people want to actually increase the overall throughput of their team. They're looking to have better communication, better leadership, better social skills as a way to motivate the team to really go after that moonshot idea. 

[00:02:01] And then there are the Kings and the Queens. These are people who have achieved some level of mastery. They probably have exited from the previous organizations  and this time around, after learning the lesson, they want to focus on wholeness. Yeah. Want to focus on impact and the want to focus on fulfillment and want to build the next organization.

[00:02:23] That's going to help them amplify the kind of impact they really want to make in the world. So if you're listening to this, I mean, curious to know which one are you, are you a warrior? Are you a commander or are you a King or queen? I'd love to hear that. 

[00:02:43] Now I want to introduce my next guest. My next guest is the podcaster of life is a festival.

[00:02:51] He's the VP of communication of Maya health, a psychedelics medicine, software company, Forbes Midas list, top tech investor, team chain, us my guest, one of the best community builders in Silicon Valley. Now, here are a few things that we talked about the journey of vulnerability that led him to a moment of naked courage on stage at burning man, we talked about using loneliness to uncover life's richest treasures.

[00:03:26] We talked about level up. His experiences or your experiences by beating up the game of lives.

[00:03:33] Final bosses, we talked about the air had candies, how it was a gateway drug to his entrepreneurial journey. We talked about love as a currency in, or a number of courtesies that you didn't even know. You spend. We talked about beating loneliness and raising self-esteem through the architecture of community.

[00:03:57] We talked about the journey of becoming the Oracle of festivals and transcendent experiences. And finally, we talked about harnessing the genius of others to create your own abundance. So please enjoy my conversation with Amy Armstrong. The host of life is a festival.

[00:04:17] CK: [00:04:17] Amy, let me just jump right into the first time when I met you, it was 2018.

[00:04:22] Bernie man, Ken mistake. You gave a talk at the love temple. Do you remember what the talk was? You remember that at all? 

[00:04:32] Eamon: [00:04:32] Yeah, yeah. We called it the penis and vagina dialogues. And it was one of the last men's work talks that I gave, but me and my friend, Alana Metta had a conversation about the things that men and women have trouble talking about.

[00:04:49] And we did most of that conversation. Naked. 

[00:04:54] CK: [00:04:54] So right away, I said to myself, wow, this guy's courageous ballsy like literal. 

[00:05:02] Eamon: [00:05:02] So literally 

[00:05:05] CK: [00:05:05] So, for someone who's watching you and say, wow, that was really, courageous. Can you walk us through a little bit of your journey of really leaning to this?

[00:05:18] Desire to be more and more open, more and more vulnerable.

[00:05:25] Eamon: [00:05:25] Yeah. Wow. So I feel like. Acts that appear courageous to others are often incremental parts of broader trajectories. Not that it's necessarily incremental to do a talk naked. It's the first talk I've ever done naked. But when I think about that question, God you started, but you didn't start me on a soft ball really well.

[00:05:53] How did you have the courage to get naked? To give a talk at burning man? It's I have to really take a minute with that. So I've always been a performer, so that helps I've spent a lot of time on the stage. So it wasn't that this was like, I had the pub, the fear of public speaking people say, imagine everyone naked.

[00:06:10] And I was just like, fuck it. I'll be naked. Oh, can I swear on this? Or should I not go for it? Okay, cool. I don't know what the rules are. Yeah. I think that. Courage is an interesting thing too, because courage means different things for different people. And actually 10 years at burning man fair amount of time being naked in unusual places.

[00:06:32] And giving a lot of talks. I wouldn't say that's necessarily where my courage is, where I need the most courage, for example. I think that jumping out of a plane would be something that would be enormously terrifying for me. I have a fear of Heights, so it'd be a lot harder. Your question was, where did, can you ask your question again?

[00:06:56] Cause I feel like I've answered 

[00:06:59] CK: [00:06:59] your brand is being open and vulnerable and you've been on this path for a long time when I saw you. It was very shocking. Cause I, wow. This is very, courageous. So I was wondering if you can walk us back on the journey of this path of being more and more vulnerable.

[00:07:18] Was there, an inciting incident when you're younger and you said no longer would I hold myself down and withhold? I'm going to be more and more vulnerable is essentially what I was going for. 

[00:07:30] Eamon: [00:07:30] Okay, here we go. Do you know, any of grams? Are you into any Enneagrams? 

[00:07:36] CK: [00:07:36] I know of it.

[00:07:37] I don't know it familiar enough to have an intelligent conversation, but hear whatever you have to say. 

[00:07:43] Eamon: [00:07:43] Yeah. Yeah. So the of the Enneagram is a personality type, there's nine personality types. And for the sake of this conversation, my Enneagram type is three with a four wing. What that means is that I identify according to this particular personality type.

[00:08:00] Metric as the successful achiever. So it's very important for me to perform and to receive external validation. And I have a four wing, which means I'm an individualist. Now I don't, think that these things are absolutely true, but they're an interesting way of Exploring yourself like a Myers-Briggs test or something like that.

[00:08:19] I've always wanted external validation and I've always also at the same time wanting to be an individual and be special. For a lot of my life, I thought that the way to be loved was to figure out what everyone wanted and then be that. And then everyone would love me. And of course that's a very hollow path to travel on because eventually you realize that if people do love you at all, they're loving the mask that you created.

[00:08:42] And none of that love is actually penetrating at all. So it's a very lonely and I was on mat track for a lot of my life of like, how do I like, figure out what you want? And then you'll like me, or what two pretty girls I'll be that. Or like, how do I try to hide this part of myself that I don't think people would like?

[00:08:59] And There was a time in my life when that kind of shifted. And I realized that I wanted to be loved for who I was. And that, was the real way to love, but I was still very, and still am very motivated by external validation. So it flipped from not just Oh, I'm just going to be me and who cares, but I'm going to be me, but I still want people to like me.

[00:09:22] And so that's been a path that I've been on for a long time, and I'm trying, I'm working with that and trying to. Trying to be more just self resourced and self validated. But so I found that over time that people actually really linked my vulnerability and linked when I feel like I'm a pretty unique dude with pretty unique perspectives.

[00:09:42] And when I moved from Los Angeles to San Francisco, And this was about 13 years ago or something. So San Francisco was still, pretty weird than it hadn't completely become a tech Mecca, but people liked the weird and people like to the vulnerable. And I found that. I could expose these parts of myself and people would respond positively.

[00:10:07] So I got the opportunity of being more authentically me, but also getting the validation that I wanted. And it's a tricky thing because there's stuff about that. That's really good and really beautiful. And I got. I was able to explore more of myself, but it was still very tied to external validation. And still in a certain sense, performative and actually did a talk about two years ago about performative Val vulnerability.

[00:10:29] So we can get more into that. I'm also warming up at the moment, so I don't feel particularly vulnerable myself right now. But I guess to answer your question. The journey of vulnerability, as courage for me has actually been tied into external validation. And as I've become more vulnerable, I've actually gotten the positive reinforcement of.

[00:10:53] My peers. So I like you it's Oh, that guy's courageous. Not just that's a weird dude who got naked and talked about his Dick in public, like that guy's courageous. And so I'm like, Oh, I'm courageous. I'll be more that way. And now the work that I'm doing right now, which I'm sure we'll get a chance to talk about today is how to completely decouple my self esteem from the response of others and actually be completely.

[00:11:15] Self validated. And I just, literally two hours ago got back from Astrum in the Portuguese countryside where I was working on this very task. So yeah, it's very much intertwined with my whole life journey as vulnerability, external validation, seeking authenticity. But yeah and it's also part of the brand too, so it's, yeah. 

[00:11:42] CK: [00:11:42] It might one of the questions I'm I, a lot of my entrepreneurial friends asked me a lot of my very, practical friends asked me, like CK, or why do you like to philosophize so much? What do you like to talk about the esoteric so much? And I didn't really quite have an answer other than I like it.

[00:12:01] Cause I like it. But then as stumble upon and I re-read the first sentence of the doubt, the gene. It says if you can describe the Dow, then it's not the eternal Dao. And, it's so accurate because if you can precisely describe this thing, truth, whatever it is, then that's not it because truth cannot be described one angle.

[00:12:29] But, what truth may emerge is seeing the exploration of it is in the in-between moments of it. And then we're going back and forth in my mind for, what, reflecting what you just said. Our ego wants validation, no matter what we are a social animal or survival dependent on so we want to know where we standing.

[00:12:50] There's certainly no social hierarchy of things, but at the same time, our higher self, my point of view, not the truth is, seeking truth. So in exploring this paradox in between then truth emerges from, that is the ying and the yang. So 

[00:13:08] Eamon: [00:13:08] yeah. Yeah, it's you're just pointing out a thing. You can never actually describe the thing I'm into that.

[00:13:16] I'm into the sort of like inevitable ineffable quality of all things. And I, like, I liked that line that the the doubt that can be described as not the true Dow. I'm pretty into that with them for that reason. So yeah I, agree with you that there's a sort of liminal space and that getting comfortable with the groundlessness of things and the imprecise Snus of language, and that sort of thing is actually very helpful because it gives you a lot more options, a lot more space to move.

[00:13:45] CK: [00:13:45] So you just came back from mash room. I have to ask what. But did you discover what, was meaningful for you or was it not, what was it experience anything you want? What you want to share it with? Me and my audience, what you discover? 

[00:14:03] Eamon: [00:14:03] Ah, okay. So something that I have found, cause I do a lot of these like peak transformative experiences.

[00:14:10] And what often happens is you have an experience it's actually, this is really in line with what you were just saying. When you start talking about it, you pin it to a story and when you pin it to a story, it creates some separation between you and that experience. And the experience is. It doesn't just end when you leave the container, whether that's like a plant medicine thing or Vipassana or an ashram or whatever it is the experience, because you're on a continuum.

[00:14:35] And so there's an unfolding that is continuing to occur. So if I now tell you this happened and that happened, and this is what is now going to happen, and this is what I learned, and this is what I'm taking with it. I may potentially Rob myself of something deeper and richer. So let me see if there's a way that I can describe my experience of going to this Ashram that isn't the need to pin it down to a story.

[00:14:58] So here we go. I am in a season of deep loneliness and I am learning to go through this loneliness and find treasure and find the treasure of a deeper strength, the treasure of peace within that there's treasure to be found. And I'm very clear on the fact that I need to go through. Loneliness, and it's also extraordinarily hard to do I ended a very important relationship about four months ago and I missed this person terribly, and I'm also being confronted with this incredible loneliness that has actually been with me through my whole life and was actually with me during the relationship too. But now it's right up in my face.

[00:15:52] I do know the poet Hafiz. So peace is my favorite poet. And my favorite poem by Hafiz concerns, this matter of loneliness, and he says, don't surrender your loneliness so quick. Let it cut more deep. Let it ferment and season you as few human or even divine ingredients can, something is missing in my heart tonight as my eyes.

[00:16:19] So soft. My voice is so tender. I need for God absolute. So the reason that I went yeah, to this Ash room was because I was feeling a mouse drum of grasping needy energy. And I was a bit of a pill to be around for that reason. I was in the throws of not just the pain of partying, but also just the.

[00:16:46] Thrashing about of the ego and identity that happens after a breakup and in that sort of liminal space of who am I now and who can I be? And I really believe that there. The most potent growth that can happen in that space is staying with it. Gotta stay with it. You want to grab on, you want to grab onto a new relationship you want to grab on to experiences.

[00:17:11] And I was feeling that I was at a bit of a fever pitch in my. Grasping. And I had attended an event at the rom DAS guru Astrum outside of Centra in the Portuguese countryside. And so I was, I'd been to this ashram and I had a friend, a new friend fellow named Zach that I met out here. Who had spent a week there and he said if you want good medicine, go to the Ash room and I'd never been to an Ash room before.

[00:17:40] And of course, as a connoisseur of transformative experiences wow. What a perfect timing here. I am full of all the raw material for transformation, with the perfect container in which to do that, just 40 minutes away. And I went as a gesture of not surrendering my loneliness. And I'll be at an Astrum as a community environment, but you're also you're in a very specific container.

[00:18:10] You're you, lose a lot of the ability to run away in various forms. And for most of the experience I had to do some work, but for most of the experience, I was shut off of technology and I was on a strict vegan diet and these sorts of things. And so I went to feel. And be in a healing container with a lot of service.

[00:18:32] Seva is the name for the the process of service at many. Ashrams certainly this Ash room and it was a Sikh Astram. So I learned about Sikhism, which I did not know anything about and also practice Kundalini yoga at five 30 every morning. And so it was an opportunity for me to really feel.

[00:18:51] It's really intense, longing, and to go deeper. And as I mentioned, a moment ago, the experience is ongoing. Like any kind of plant medicine experience or any sort of festival or whatever it is, you come home thinking, Oh I'm, transformed. I learned the thing. And of course that's never the case.

[00:19:13] You get a glimpse of it, and then it's up to you to do the work, to integrate it into your life, which essentially is that's what life is the festival. The podcast is about is how do we integrate these experiences into our lives? Be it a festival, a ceremony, whatever it is. And so I am under no illusions that I am now free of the sort of grasping energy.

[00:19:32] Although it abated. Quite considerably at the ashram itself. But I'm in a season of loneliness. And my hope is, that if I'm able to sit in the desert long enough and by the desert, what I mean is not without people altogether, but without grabbing on to some form of partnership that validates and reflects me back to myself, if I'm able to sit in the desert long enough I believe that the desert will bloom.

[00:20:02] And I believe this because these are the words of someone far wiser than I thinker Anthony de Mello from his book the way to love, or maybe it was awareness, but one of his books, he talks about sitting in the desert until it begins to bloom. So to answer your question, why did I go to the Ash room and where, what did I get out of it?

[00:20:22] I went to the ashram to have a container in which to feel deep, grasping, clinging loneliness. And to develop my spiritual DNA, to be able to meet that in a more self possessed way. And it is one, of many experiences that I've had over these past few months and will continue to have that's part of strengthening a kind of interior spiritual muscle that I believe will.

[00:20:57] Bear a treasurer far richer than perhaps any that I have so far discovered in my life. Not as we'll see, but is my hope 

[00:21:10] CK: [00:21:10] what a beautiful metaphor. Your, example has been quite illustrative of what a lot of people may be feeling right now doing COVID economics business and everything, right?

[00:21:24] This is a a time of difficulty or challenge university for them. And as in any adversity, economic relationship, plant medicine, Ayahuasca at all of these things. It reveals some part of who we are. So, leaning into that discomfort allows us to see the truth of who we are. And as you said earlier, beautifully, I call it a spiritual spine.

[00:21:52] You're developing that spiritual spine. So you know who you are as they can come out stronger and just say, Hey, here's who I am, an Armstrong CK, Lin whoever. And then just say here's me naked. 

[00:22:08] Eamon: [00:22:08] Yeah, there's a there's a great line from rom Doss and this is the American rom to us. The the Ash room that I was at was a Sikh guru named rom Doss, so different people, but the American rom Doss has a great line about loss.

[00:22:23] And he says that when going through a terrible loss, we panic and are filled with fear because we are afraid that we, are really afraid that we'll die. And it's true, actually, it's true. The part of us that cannot bear that loss that, trauma, that shock, whatever, that the part of us that cannot bear it does die.

[00:22:44] And the part of us that that can bear it is what remains. And in a sense, I feel like when we go through some of these sort of arduous experiences that we are terrified about and we feel we cannot possibly get through, there is a part of us that can't get through it. And that part of us doesn't get through it.

[00:23:03] And so when I think about building the spiritual muscle, there's a more childish aspect of myself. It's I don't want to, I just want to collapse. I want someone to do it for me. Like that thing, that part. And I say that part isn't doesn't deserve love and compassion and radical self acceptance, certainly.

[00:23:26] But the. There's something that happens when that grabbing can't grab anything and gives up. And I'm not there yet, but the Ashrum and some other experiences I've had over the past couple of months have been part of trying to surrender this grasping aspect of myself. And yeah, I have that spiritual spine erect as you have.

[00:23:55] So aptly described. 

[00:23:59] CK: [00:23:59] Do you think that when you say I'm not quite there yet do you think that it will ever go away? Because from my point of view, right? That, impulse that, chatter, it will always be there. Now. It's my level of comfort in. Being with from the whisper, the chatter to the loudness, to the screaming of that.

[00:24:23] And then if I have that spiritual spine or that capacity to hear with that and be with that and just be okay with it accepted. And that's my level of development there. I'm curious to know your point of view. 

[00:24:35] Eamon: [00:24:35] Yeah. So yeah nothing, no parts of us, go away we just develop a more sophisticated relationship to them as we mature.

[00:24:45] But when you think about have you gotten have you gotten a shot recently? 

[00:24:53] CK: [00:24:53] Like a needle shot? 

[00:24:54] Eamon: [00:24:54] Yeah. 

[00:24:55] CK: [00:24:55] No. Okay. 

[00:24:59] Eamon: [00:24:59] So I got a shot recently. I can't remember what it was for. But. This person stuck a needle in my arm. And I didn't even, I didn't have a moment where I was afraid. I'd never a moment where I even cared.

[00:25:09] I was just like, Oh no, that's not. This happened. And so there was a part of myself when I was very young, that would have, that was already freaking out. That part, there is no part of me that freaks out about getting a shot anymore. You know what I mean? There's, a part of me that is childish and freaks out about certain things, but I've grown past.

[00:25:32] Being afraid of that particular thing. So I think it does shift. There's always, there are always wounded parts of us. There always scared parts of us. They come up in different times for different purposes. Certainly. I don't think that we rid ourselves of anything. And I think that it might be best for us to rid ourselves with the notion that we can rid ourselves of things at the same time.

[00:25:56] With endurance, there is the part of us that can't endure it, can't endure it. And, I feel falls away with each difficult experience. We go through like a video game where you beat a boss and then you always know the co they always know the moves to beat that boss. And so you get on the next level and instead of the boss, at the end of the level, you got a couple of those.

[00:26:18] Those same characters pop up, but now you know how to deal with them. So you get a new boss at the end of the level, and as you progress, you have these difficulties to deal with. 

[00:26:27] CK: [00:26:27] Yeah. 

[00:26:27] Let's actually switch gear a little bit because you are a man of many talents. You're a comedian you're a performer.

[00:26:37] You are a podcast host. You are a community builder. There's many different roles that you play throughout your life. And most recently you started life as a podcast. So live is a festival podcast, right? So that's your newest, entrepreneurial and journey. Could you share with us a little bit about how you one, why did you start that entrepreneur journey?

[00:27:03] Is that your first, by the way? 

[00:27:05] Eamon: [00:27:05] I love that you call it an entrepreneurial journey, because I think that's a wonderful way to think about it. And I totally act like it's an entrepreneurial venture, but I have just never used that word. I see. I'm one of those people where I was like, I'm an artist. I'm not an entrepreneur, but it's totally bullshit because I am an entrepreneur and that's, it's a, it's such a limiting frame.

[00:27:24] And I think I actually held myself back a lot when I was younger by being like no, it's not about the money. I'm not like a money guy. I'm not into, I'm not just not business, whatever. It's just this band or this this other thing you asked if it was my first entrepreneurial venture, I would say that my first.

[00:27:41] Real venture was a band that that I, it was three of us and Graham McLeod, Emily Holtham and myself back in San Francisco in my mid twenties. We created a band called I can dress myself and we through mushroom tea parties, Haight street, and we threw these elaborate costume parties and we built a beautiful community around it.

[00:28:06] And then we built a burning man camp out. From that community. And and so I would say that my first entrepreneurial venture was probably. The band, I can dress myself, but also the community. We called ourselves selves, the funky ones, and then our burning man camp elephant bird camp. And they were all sorts of parts of the same thing, but I definitely approached that very much like an entrepreneur and also abandon it when it's time was over, which I think is also an entrepreneurial thing to an awareness of when the resources going in aren't worth what you're getting out and you have to let things go.

[00:28:41] So I'd say that was the first. Yeah, that sort of thing. I did, I sold drugs in high school, like just a little bit, like a little bit of weed. So maybe that's like, entrepreneurial, but I think I was just like, trying to be cool. 

[00:28:55] CK: [00:28:55] Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I so appreciate.

[00:28:58] You're just so open about everything. That's awesome. I love it. 

[00:29:02] Eamon: [00:29:02] So I don't think anyone cares that I sold weed in high school at this point. I think that people would be like, Oh yeah, we've got bigger fish to fry, buddy. There you go. There you go. 

[00:29:12] CK: [00:29:12] I think you, made a comment about how a lot of artists don't see themselves as a, as entrepreneurs, but in my mind being an artist is one of the most entrepreneurial thing that I could do.

[00:29:23] Cause you literally sharing who you are you, your ideas, your creation to the world, and then you're sharing it in a very, competitive Space. So super entrepreneurial from my point of view, anyway making a brand, making your creation, finding an audience and making a niche have a relationship with your fans, with the audience.

[00:29:49] That's what entrepreneurial is. You're solving a problem. All of it. 

[00:29:54] Eamon: [00:29:54] It's all how you think about it. And I have to go back to your earlier question cause I just remembered, I actually have an entrepreneurial venture from way earlier. When I was in middle school my mom would buy like the bulk pack of blank, airhead candies, and then I would go to school and I would sell the individual Airheads from the bulk box that she got at Cusco And that was my first entrepreneurial venture. So I just want to. I D I don't, the thing is, I don't think about them as entrepreneurial ventures. I just think of them as like fun little projects. And and I think that's something that we get into with so, you're asking the question about artists not thinking of themselves as entrepreneurs.

[00:30:40] And I've actually coached a lot of artists. I do pro bono coaching. I don't charge for coaching also because of my relationship with money kind of money. It's such an interesting thing. But a lot of times with artists is that they don't know how to value themselves. And when you present yourself to someone without being able to value your work, they don't know how to value it either because a lot of the value that's created is in the conversation and collaboration about it.

[00:31:04] It's Oh, I don't know. How would you I don't know. Do you want to pay for this or what? It's it doesn't instill a lot of confidence. So I think for a lot of artists, they're I'm not, like a money person. I'm not like a business person. I don't have those skills. And there's all that sort of limiting beliefs that are reinforced.

[00:31:22] And as someone smarter than me once said if you fight for your limitations, you get to keep them as a wonderful line. I can't remember who that's attributed to. But yeah, I think that. We would be so much more liberated in our, all of our ventures. If we didn't create barriers for ourselves. Literally at the Ash room today, a woman was talking to me about spiritual coaching and she was asking me about how to get the word out.

[00:31:55] And I was like you have to market it. And she's But it's like a spiritual thing. I don't want it to seem like I'm selling something like you are selling something, you're selling the service, so you'd have to market it because otherwise, how are people going to know about it? And she's yeah, but it just it doesn't seem like spiritual for me.

[00:32:14] I was like, it doesn't matter if it feels spiritual or not. It's like either you can do it because you're just doing it. And then. Do it as much as people happen to ask you about it or or you can put yourself out there and you can promote it in some way. It doesn't mean you necessarily have to take out ads on Facebook about it, but you do have to figure out strategies with which to promote yourself.

[00:32:38] And yeah, it's an interesting edge. And I think that for me, had I thought about myself in the terms of entrepreneur younger, I probably would have. I don't know you know what, nevermind. Actually I love my life there. I don't have any, it doesn't matter what would have been. I'm very happy with where I am now, but I, think that, I feel that life is a festival is an entrepreneurial venture, for sure.

[00:33:04] Even though it's the only money I've ever made from it is when Spotify paid me to, do live shows at their holiday parties, which was dope. I've never made any money from that podcast. But it's definitely, I pursue it like an entrepreneurial venture. 

[00:33:20] CK: [00:33:20] It's still, it's not finished yet.

[00:33:22] So you don't have the finished story yet. It's still in development and is still evolving. And then you're figuring out your monetization model 

[00:33:30] in my mind, the easiest way, the simplest way, the most reductive way to think 

[00:33:35] about 

[00:33:36] this whole idea of love, money, spirituality, all of it is just treat everything as love.

[00:33:44] So I'm paying you, I'm paying one currency as money. One currency is attention. One currency is respect when currency may be acknowledgement, testimonials, all of it. So it's all just different currency of love going back and forth. So if I think of it that way simplifies things for me is no longer is it?

[00:34:04] Oh, money's dirty. I love is better. Spiritualities of Indian better. So it's just different currencies. 

[00:34:10] Eamon: [00:34:10] Yeah I, had a great, I did a great podcast with Tim Chang about this. Do you know Tim Chang? 

[00:34:15]So he's a, pretty successful venture capitalist.

[00:34:18] And I don't I don't think he would want me to say he's a successful venture capitalist as the primary way. Identify him. He would probably want me to say that he is like a heart-centered innovator, really a person, which is what I think of him. But it's funny in the context of this, I'm like he's on the side of he's a venture capitalist and I'm so he taught me to be more like, it's so funny how we divide up the world.

[00:34:39] But I did a podcast With Tim about money and about my podcast and that sort of thing. And at that time I was looking for work and life has a festival wasn't ready to be monetized. And it did turn out that life has a festival led to the work that I do with Maya. Because. I have a lot of background in community building the kind of direct translation of the life as the festival podcast into a psychedelic therapy podcast made a lot of sense from my work working with a psychedelic medicine software company.

[00:35:14]Tim, has a very positive outlook on everything, an enormously positive positive man. And he just helped me understand that I was rejecting money. And then I was looking at I was looking at my work as in a certain category when it really could, you could make a lot of money and eventually, maybe it will.

[00:35:37] Yeah, that would be, and I think that making money is actually pretty great if you do it in the right way, because if you make money, you hire a team, you do more stuff, you get get more people paid, get more opportunities. I don't think that we all need to like make massive tech companies, but if you've got something great and the world is benefiting from it, why not put the.

[00:36:02] Time and energy behind it and the resources to get it to more people. And we live in a capitalist context. And so that is the way that you do that is by creating resources and then using those resources to expand. So I'd like to do that with life as a festival. 

[00:36:19] CK: [00:36:19] Yeah. 

[00:36:20] Awesome man. Yes. Life is a festival produce.

[00:36:23] A lot of value actually listened to the podcast. And one thing that stuck up for me is. You introduced yourself a certain way and then chain introduce yourself a certain way. And that was like, wow. Cause he has a really high listening of you and what you are creating.

[00:36:40]Eamon: [00:36:40] Yeah, no, I remember that now. Yeah. He he, pitched me on my podcast, as he said something like he's one of the most expert community builders I've ever met. And I was like, Aw, damn, that's awfully sweet of you. I love community building. It's a weird, it's a weird term community building.

[00:36:57] Cause you're not really building anything. You're more just like facilitating connections between people and, associating those connections with a, brand or a entity that then benefits from the stewardship of those connections and those connections benefit from that stewardship.

[00:37:13] So it's not, you're not building the community so much as you're like building the architecture that supports it. But I love it 

[00:37:21] CK: [00:37:21] actually, if you don't mind, because you just. Push out a bunch of big words. Can you unpack what you just said? And then a little bit more, so someone younger version of CK, younger version of amen, 10 years ago, five years ago, who was like, wow amen is one of the most expert community builders out there.

[00:37:40] And I want to learn how to build community. How would you impact that for the younger version of CK Lin 

[00:37:46] Eamon: [00:37:46] Oh, yeah. Okay. So the younger version of amen felt very lonely coming out of college. Actually this loneliness thread is an interesting part of this conversation side note, as a podcaster, I tend to look for threads and conversations for my guests.

[00:38:02] I'll watch what they're doing and then I'll pull them. I'll pull them back to threads that I see emerging. And so it's funny, looking at myself as a guest. I'm like, Oh man, there's like a loneliness thing you're talking about. I left college and I felt so lonely people, just move.

[00:38:18] I was in LA and a bunch of people moved and I went through a breakup and I and college has a certain architecture for community. And when I say like a traditional residents based for your school The architecture is the actual physical campus itself, and then all the associated organizations and and the surrounding places where people are living you're, in a physical community.

[00:38:46] And when we leave college in our sort of modern atomized world, where we're not in a traditional village setting where we. We go through an experience. We return to a village or community. You you often are on your own. You're staying where that college was. Maybe you're going back home, but everybody's moved or you're moving to some other city to take a job.

[00:39:06] And what I found and many people will find is that who are your friends? Your friends happen to be people you work with, or you date someone and they become your whole world. So there needs to be an architecture for community to happen. There needs to be a way that bonds are strengthened in a way that people understand themselves associated with community.

[00:39:30] So now I speak to younger Eamon who came out of college feeling totally lonely. So check it out younger. Eamon Not only is it possible to actually have the community that you wanted. But you yourself can actually facilitate it, which is going to put you right at the center of it. And here we go with the loneliness thing, it's like, why am I community building?

[00:39:56] Because I'm lonely. So I put myself at the center of people you yourself can create community. And the way that you do so is by helping people strengthen bonds with each other, and the best way to help people to strengthen bonds with each other. Is to give people cool things to do. Yeah. Elevate them in the eyes of each other so that they associate with each others kind of self-esteem or esteem.

[00:40:23] So like for Fest 300, for example. I was the first, the community manager, ultimately culture sorry. Creative director of a website called Fest 300, which was a guide to the world's best festivals. And essentially my concept for that was it was a website with an online magazine. And my concept was basically like, we really need to make this a community.

[00:40:47] We need to be the stewards of the global festival community. So we're the ones who say, this is an amazing festival. We're also the ones who the best photographers are and hire them. We're the ones who know what people need and help them get it. And in a sense, What I was doing was using the website to create a concept of a global festival community, and then help people help each other, which strengthened the bonds of their connection which made it all feel like a global community.

[00:41:19] And then who knew best about the global community, the magazine that I was leading the content for. And back to younger aim and coming out of college, You're, it's hard to make friends. It's hard to keep reaching out and keep calling people and be like, Hey, do you want to hang out today?

[00:41:41] Do you wanna hang out today? We're we want to be in tribes naturally. We don't want to be like constantly going and creating bonds. We want to be an environment where bonds can actually crystallize buy our bonds can strengthen In, the context of shared experience. So create the context of shared experience.

[00:42:09] It's also why I love festivals. It's a context of shared experience where we can break. You can create deeper bonds with each other. It's why I like a lot of the experiences because it's about connection, strengthening, bonds, feeling this association, and then feeling held in community. 

[00:42:24]CK: [00:42:24] So what I heard is it STEM from your desire?

[00:42:28] Your feeling of loneliness and you wanted to then just go out and build a shared experience to help other people string them bond with each other. And that there is actually a spiritual principle inside of that that the adage goes, you give what you want most, right? So you were feeling lonely and then you then created cool experiences to help other people feeling less lonely.

[00:42:53] And therefore you feel. Less lonely yourself. Yeah, 

[00:42:58] Eamon: [00:42:58] absolutely. Yeah, no, I think that's an very accurate recap. And and I think that I like that there's an, that part totally align. That's the reverse of that, which is what you think the world is withholding from you. You are withholding from the world, just the inverse of that.

[00:43:16] So yeah. What, you are lacking, you end up giving. And I think that's been very true for me is that. I have had an incredible loneliness inside me my whole life. And so I try to connect people with each other. And yeah, actually what's funny is I actually haven't really thought about this deeply this way.

[00:43:39] Like I know it, but I haven't really. There's a lot of like things clicking, coming out of the Ash room and being like, what am I going to do right now? Where am I, where do I want to be? Where do I live? And so it's actually quite a potent time to be having this public conversation. 

[00:43:55] CK: [00:43:55] Yeah. Awesome.

[00:43:56] What an opportunity. So going a little bit deeper than you like cool experiences like festivals, so therefore, and then peak experiences and transformational experiences, and therefore you create core. Experiences for other people that come around who are into the same thing as well. Is that accurate?

[00:44:18] Eamon: [00:44:18] Actually the, I created the experiences back when I had the funky dance band and the burning man camp, and actually found that creating the experiences was the juice wasn't as worth the squeeze as it was to to actually curate them. If I am a node in many communities, then I get much more access to all sorts of things, rather than doing one thing that may on its own fail.

[00:44:48] So My funky dance band and my cool parties were like really cool, but got to a point where I wasn't really going anywhere. And I had to start from scratch. Then the next thing that I did, the website was more about curating all the other experiences and being part of all of them and going and finding them and reviewing them.

[00:45:05] And I'm at a place right now where I'm totally not into event production. I love event production. I love event producers. I love supporting them, but I am not. I am not a King in that context. I am more an Oracle. I am more of a Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. I bring everything together. I don't, produce it myself.

[00:45:28] CK: [00:45:28] Yeah, I got you. Event production experiences creation is not necessarily your zone of genius or it's not something that you want to do. So you, so now you're a curator of experiences. How would you define curator? 

[00:45:48] Eamon: [00:45:48] It's really just sharing. They just go find the things I love.

[00:45:51] And then I share them and that's evolved from a website that was a guide to the world's best festivals, where we had an annual list of 300 festivals and said, this is good. This is, this makes the list. This doesn't to now with life as a festival, it's more like. I'm going through a challenge in my life.

[00:46:11] And so life has burped up and an Ashram for me to go to. So I'm going to go have that experience and then do a podcast with the Sikh Kundalini master founder of the Ashram that I then share with my audience. And then if they're having a crisis experience, they might think, Oh, maybe I will go do the ashram thing.

[00:46:33] So it's less now it's less curating in the sense of This, is, I suggest this, but not this. This is cool, but that's not. And now it's more I just had this hard thing and I'm choosing this and here I would recommend it for this reason, but doing it a little bit more in a sort of like longer narrative arc, rather than like you could have this or that you could have this, does that make sense?

[00:46:59] CK: [00:46:59] The more of the narrative, the story format versus. Pro con checklists format a thing. Yeah, I got that. Yeah, similar, right. A noble warrior. I talked really interesting people help them pull out some of the important bits, the tools , internal dialogue inside their mind, and also share actionable tactics with people to, try on if they're in similar situations or if they really resonate energetically to the guest.

[00:47:31] So then we can help people basically move things forward. 

[00:47:36] Eamon: [00:47:36] Yeah, 

[00:47:36] CK: [00:47:36] I like that. Yeah. So actually talk about the, joy of being a podcast, or by the way, I'm curious now, like what, from your perspective is the most counterintuitive joy of a benefit of being a podcast and what is the most counter-intuitive costs of being a podcaster.

[00:48:02] Eamon: [00:48:02] Counterintuitive is precisely the word for this. Maybe it is, but being a podcaster makes you a more interested person. So I think a lot of people would like to be a more interesting person, but it's actually more valuable to be a more interested person. And I love talking about myself. I love talking about my journeys, my adventures, and I went to the, did the medicine.

[00:48:25] I did the meditation. I did the thing aren't I so great. But what I found with the podcast is the podcast doesn't work that way. You can't get on a podcast and talk about how awesome you are, because it's super boring. The whole point of the podcast is to make your guests look amazing. And so for me, I got into podcasting.

[00:48:43] I was going to write a book about my adventures and the learnings that I'd accrued. And I launched the podcast as a way of galvanizing my existing audience from. From Fest 300 from my, writing, from some of my public speaking to like coalesce that audience to then prepare them to offer this book for them.

[00:49:05]So I started the podcast, as potentially part of this book thing realized that I had no interest in writing the book and that writing the book was super lonely and super self-involved. And basically every time I wanted to write a book, I had to sit down and try to make something that was perfect.

[00:49:23] But the podcast can't be perfect because it has to come out every week. So the podcast is by its very nature, iterative, and it's not about me and it, is with other people. So all of these qualities made it so much more fun and so much easier to do. If, you've got entrepreneurs listening, okay.

[00:49:41] Dear entrepreneur listening. Find something iterative, just get, do something that you can iterate on when you have that big, perfect thing, trying to make the perfect book. You're trying to make the perfect course offering whatever it is. That is a prison trying to make a perfect thing as an awful prison, better to find something that you can iterate over time and you can get something out, get feedback, tweak it, get feedback, tweak it.

[00:50:07] So my podcast is every single week. I record. And every single week I painstakingly listen and edit very closely and just go through all of these different kinds of processes of what is this, what is that? And then I, put it out in the world and then I have a Facebook group. Life is a festival Facebook group where people will respond.

[00:50:28] Sometimes people reach out to me on Instagram. So I'm like in conversation with with my audience. I actually I'm planning to put together. I think I have enough. Of an engaged audience where people actually really value the show and value me for hosting it, that I'm, that they would be willing to do a survey.

[00:50:44] So I'm actually going to be creating a survey to get more information about what people like and what they don't like. So it's iterative and the actual process of making it better is an ongoing process that I'm doing with, if I had to sit by myself off with a blank page on a computer and try to create something perfect.

[00:51:03] Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. I'm so happy. I'm not trying to do that right now. I was so miserable when I was trying to do that. And so that may be, I don't know if it's counterintuitive, but that's an enormous benefit. And then just the idea of focusing on the other. Is it actually makes me what this is counterintuitive focusing on.

[00:51:21] Other people actually makes me look better, which is really cool. Like I always thought you need to have a brilliant idea, get up on stage and you'll share your brilliant idea. And everyone will be like, wow, this person is so brilliant. Great idea, actually. When you interview people and you're extremely interested and you're having a really good time, they can deliver all the brilliant ideas.

[00:51:42] You don't have to have any brilliant ideas and you'll still look amazing. And you'll see your building life as a festival, as a brand, entirely on knowledge of the people who come on my show. Of course my story and my personality is, interwoven in that, but I don't have to be smart. I don't have to be right.

[00:52:01] I don't have to, I don't have to be anything. I just have to be interested. Counter intuitive cost of doing a podcast. I don't think I am ever going to really make money off the podcast itself. I just think the advertising model on podcasts just doesn't really work. You need to have, so you have to have such a huge audience.

[00:52:23] You need to be like a Tim Ferris. Like I don't think it's counterintuitive costs is that it's a lot of work for not a lot of money that being said. And this gets into a bit of the conversation about entrepreneurship is that I think it, I think the key is to be an entree, to have an entrepreneurial mindset.

[00:52:45] But not have a mindset of a focus on bottom line and money because not, you don't reject money. Money's good. Cause it helps. Money is something that helps you build your thing. But if the goal of the thing is to make money, I just if the goal of your podcasts make money, don't do a podcast, go do something else.

[00:53:02] But if the goal of your podcast is to create abundance in your life, money will come in all sorts of different ways. And in my case, like. Life is a festival has strengthened my network. Like I have a brand, people are aware of me and then it led to my work with Maya, which does pay me. And now I'm doing a podcast tour for Maya, the psychedelic therapy podcast.

[00:53:20] And I'm getting paid well to to do, because I'm on a VP salary for doing the podcast and some other things so it actually turned into a career doing something that I love. Maybe someday life is a festival turn into a TV show or turn into something else. And it'll there'll be some sort of watershed moment of a financial renumeration, but to your earlier point about love and money and spirituality, all of these things this all being different forms of love.

[00:53:50] I think the key is to cultivate abundance in your life and that abundance may have the name of money. But it may also be many other things. And for me, it's a lot of other things, 

[00:54:02]CK: [00:54:02] Okay. Geek out a little bit about more on the, expertise of being a great host. So personally for me, I look for Graham Norton.

[00:54:13] He's a master interviewer, a Charlie Rose master interviewer, Joe Rogan, obviously master interviewer. And I look at their craft of actually how to insert themselves very gracefully. Versus someone else who would just monopolize the conversation and started to preach to the guest. So I'm curious to know.

[00:54:36] Yeah, I think you're a unique angle. You had said something like I didn't ever have to do anything. I think that's really being really humble by the way, because you have a unique way to really dance in that conversation and tease out some of the gems. You need them, the space you, amped them up so that they can tell their best story.

[00:54:57] So share with us a little bit about the mechanics, how you get the most. By being interested. Cause you're not just sitting there and staring at them doing nothing. You're doing something to get the most. So share with us a little bit about the mental process of how you do 

[00:55:13] that. 

[00:55:14] Eamon: [00:55:14] Okay. So, just to clarify, I definitely don't do that, but like I'm not required to be to have the idea I don't need to come to the table and know post Daoist theory.

[00:55:29] I don't need that, but I do work very hard at being a good podcaster. And what, for me, what it comes down to. Bottom line is shared vulnerability. And actually before coronavirus, I never did any I almost did no remote podcast cause it's a lot harder to drop into that shared vulnerability over a screen.

[00:55:52] I've gotten better at it, but it's it's easier in person. My goal as a host is to give enough. Without making it about myself, that my guest feels safe giving of themselves. And so my guests always get final cut on the content. So bottom line, nothing gets published without my guests explicit. Yes on it.

[00:56:19] I've done. I did the two live episodes at Spotify, but aside from that, I don't do anything live. I try to create a situation of intimacy and what, 

[00:56:29] situation of intimacy. 

[00:56:31] Yeah. So what my philosophy of my podcast comes from a book called finite and infinite games. You heard of this book, it's quite a popular book.

[00:56:47] Briefly the book essentially says that you can live your life in one of two ways. You can live as if you're playing a finite game or a series of finite games, or as if you're playing. Infinite games, which really comes down to basically one infinite game. A finite game is played to win. An infinite game is played to play more games.

[00:57:06] And the whole book breaks down all of life into like how to look at things as is finite as infinite versus finite games. And of course the goal is to live your life as a, as an infinite game where you just start playing, inviting more players and playing more games. And there's a line about that.

[00:57:24] About infinite players and James Carse who wrote that book, right? Infinite players play in complete openness. It's not openness as in candor, but openness, as in vulnerability, it's not about revealing a fixed self that has always been but about exploring. And co-creating a dynamic self that is yet to be when I talk about vulnerability and intimacy and authenticity and these kinds of things, I'm actually not looking at it from the perspective that someone has a secret that I want them to reveal to me and my audience. What I feel like is if I can model to my guests that I'm trying to go deeper, that I'm trying to find something in myself that may be challenging to reveal.

[00:58:11] And I encourage them to do the same. What ends up happening is we don't actually reveal this thing. We're holding and saving. Oh, maybe I'll reveal that. But the excavation process itself is a kind of co-creation of being in the very moment and the best podcast for me. It's a situation where we're discovering things about ourselves.

[00:58:32] So actually in this particular conversation I feel a little jumbly right now. I feel like I'm, like, I would say I'm giving like a seven or eight performance as far as like my actual speaking is concerned, but for me personally, I'm actually getting a lot out of this podcast. I think I'm probably getting the most out of this podcast.

[00:58:50] Like y'all listening. Super cool. I hope you're getting a lot out of it and I think I'm probably getting more out of it than you are. And the reason being is I'm in a very. I'm going to stay with a lot of movement right now. And to have this conversation with you with this space that you've created the way that you're asking your questions, the, I even just the dojo image behind you is I is helping me.

[00:59:13] It's like a, it's like a positive vibe is allowing me to coalesce certain things in real time. And it's not. It's not that there's a bunch of ideas that are waiting to be discovered in a sense. It's there's a creation that's happening of the synthesis in the context of our conversation. So that's what I'm trying to do as a host and the way that I do that.

[00:59:38] So some actual sort of tactics about doing it is that, so first of all, I do a lot of research, so I really want to know. What is, what are the things that I want to know from this guest? Like I've done some podcasts where I've chosen the guests based on their identity in some way, this person's famous, or this person is going to look a certain way, but I've leaned a little too much into that.

[01:00:03] And I don't do that anymore now. That's an earlier thing. Now. I only interview people who I want to talk to. I want to learn something about, and I typically. It's their life it's life as a festival. And it usually focuses on a particular theme. So I am releasing a podcast today with Sabine Alicia Denfeld who is listening fields.

[01:00:25] They felt, I dunno. Felt we didn't talk about her last name. Who was one of the co-founders of a a research Institute. Intentional community healing, biotech college, Tamara in Southern Portugal. And it's, that's, it's a free love community and it's not just polyamorous per se. It's like love free from fear.

[01:00:51] And so in talking to her. There's things I want to know about how that community creates the safety in which people can heal the wounds of love. And I want to know how we can create that safety outside of community. So there's, I really want to know it. And so I've done my research to get where their thinking is and where they might go with it.

[01:01:13] And I have a nice roadmap, but then I don't really ask questions. I do occasionally I don't really ask questions so much as I listened to them and I see where I can bridge something that they've said towards where I want to go. So they'll bring up something about, I don't think I've got something great off the top of my head.

[01:01:35] No, I don't have anything right off the top of my head, but they'll bring up something and I'll be able to pull from what they've said, a segue while I'll be like, Oh, so when you said that. This kind of reminds me of this thing over here. And what I find in doing that is that when you ask a question, you're like, okay this thing, and what about this thing?

[01:01:55] Then they feel like they're being interviewed. And if they feel like they're being interviewed, then they'll, and especially people who've been interviewed a lot. They'll respond as if they're being interviewed and they may have some stock answers that they've prepared. So they can go to this, kind of safety of Oh, he's asking about the.

[01:02:12] Paul about whether it's polyamory. Here's my stock answer, but if I use a segue, if I'm listening closely and I can anchor where I want to go into what they already want to talk about, then it is one like moving forward conversation, but it still has the like the scaffolding of of information that I feel that my audience needs to be able to follow their thinking.

[01:02:36] So I spend a lot of time planning that. And then when I'm actually doing the podcast, and this is the case, I think with most, arts. Cause I I think of the podcast is art. I prepare, I get everything ready and then I just try to drop into flow with them. And I try to drop into the place where it's I'm not.

[01:02:57] Monitoring too much. Everything is broadly monitored. Everything's I've got my, recorder and I know it's not peaking. And I I I know the time is I know we're like, but that's very peripheral, but I'm, actually just with them. And there's a moment where they, bring something up and they're like talking about healing wounds and masculinity.

[01:03:21] And I'm like, God I want to talk about this wound of pornography addiction. And people come to Tamara to heal this wound because it's a wound that I've had. She says, Oh yes, yeah many, men have come here for this monument and, it's I've given, I'm giving a little, I'm giving a little more.

[01:03:39] And when I say I've had this issue with pornography addiction, and then she can say, Oh, this is something that we're healing here. I'm like in it with her, the healing that is happening at Tamara is something that is associated with my own life. But I haven't gone too deep into let me tell you the first time I ever watched pornography or when I stopped watching pornography or how I learned I, I have to be self-disciplined enough to not do what I'm doing right now.

[01:04:02] Cause I'm a guest on your show, which is Talking about lunch. So it's, like, how do I like reveal myself in a co-creative fashion too, but it's all the goal is all the tee them up to go to the next place. So that's how I do it. 

[01:04:19] CK: [01:04:19] Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So for those of you listening, this may be very, niche.

[01:04:26] You may not be a podcast host. You may, not even be thinking about it, but what Eamon is illustrating here actually is about the atomic unit of one-to-one. Conversation like essentially a podcast is how to be a great conversationalist in the beginning of my time, thinking about is I gotta be a great interviewer 

[01:04:46] Eamon: [01:04:46] Barbara Walters 

[01:04:48] CK: [01:04:48] and a journalistic style.

[01:04:49] Then the more I do it and realize actually it's not about being an interviewer or it's not about me. Teaching my guests is actually just being a great conversationalist. And then that is the foundation skill from my point of view, to have relationships with other people. What do you think about that?

[01:05:10] Eamon: [01:05:10] I can say that being a podcaster has made me a way better conversationalist. If I'm at like a dinner party or something, I, my brain will start doing the podcast thing. Like I'll be talking to someone and where has a younger, eamon They'll say something and a younger, eamon Will immediately be like, Oh, that reminds me of something about myself I can share.

[01:05:30] And if I share this thing about myself that relates to them, then they'll think I'm nothing. I'm cool. And they'll link me. Not true instead. It's Oh, they set that thing. I wonder if they had, Hey, do you have any siblings? And they're like, Oh actually, you know what funny? You should mention that because actually I'm a middle child.

[01:05:49] And I was like, I I thought so because you were and then suddenly I find that I'm doing the podcasting thing. Not it's still the give and take kind of thing, but I Yeah, it is definitely made me a better conversationalist. And and I definitely would recommend podcasting as good medicine for self-involved people because I'm absolutely my whole life.

[01:06:11] I've been a self-involved person and I'm lonely because I'm staring at my damn self all the time because I got a problem and I got to fix it. And I'm like, God, this problem and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like looking in word and then feeling lonely. And so in a sense, you're talking about you're healing the world by giving the world what, you're lacking.

[01:06:32] So for me, The podcast is like good medicine for me being self-involved and me being self-involved is part of why I'm so damn lonely. And then the podcast I don't feel lonely right now. I'm talking to you we're here, we're having a conversation and we're going, deeper together. And in granted, we are talking a lot about me, but that's the format and it's fine like I'm, in community and I'm in movement with with people, but.

[01:06:59] No, I think I just lost the train of thought a little bit myself. Okay. 

[01:07:04] CK: [01:07:04] Yeah. Podcasts is great for selfie. It's great medicine for self-involved people. That's yes. 

[01:07:11] Eamon: [01:07:11] And, you're welcome to use that as, a tagline, when you promote this podcast, guesting is good medicine for self-involved people.

[01:07:19] I think 

[01:07:20] CK: [01:07:20] actually like any in my, I'm all about self-actualization and so are you, and then there's different path in some of the, more obvious path that's made a significant impact in my life would be. Burnig man is a great one. Plant medicine is a great one on being an entrepreneur is a great one.

[01:07:42] Eamon: [01:07:42] No, I was on the train. 

[01:07:47] CK: [01:07:47] Yeah. And podcasting actually, I didn't even think about podcasting as a, path for self actualization, but it actually made me a better listener and made me a better conversationalist. It made me less involved because my tendency is. Here's my shadow. Hey, look how smart I am.

[01:08:05] Let me show you some tidbits, quote, some other random thing that you may not know about. And in demonstrating my frame that a, the mindset framework about how you can solve your problem. And Tara, then I hope you're like me that, right? Yeah. I hope you would see me as impressive then. So being a podcast is for me to really just like.

[01:08:29] Yeah. Self-discipline yeah. I just 

[01:08:31] Eamon: [01:08:31] do 

[01:08:31] CK: [01:08:31] very little of self and just do very much focused on the guest. 

[01:08:38] Eamon: [01:08:38] Absolutely. You were saying that you prove your value to people by solving their problems.

[01:08:45] I picked up something like that. And you demonstrate that you're smart and you solve the problem. Yeah. So here's something that I've learned. Nobody wants you to solve their problem. Not really. People want you to listen. They want you to join them in their problem. They don't want to be alone with their problem, but they don't want you to hand them a solution.

[01:09:08] Because first of all, any solution you hand someone, they probably already thought about it. They probably already explored that solution and it can feel very patronize me like have you're depressed. Have you tried exercise? And then you'll let your mother fucker. Of course I've tried exercise.

[01:09:23] I'm depressed. Everybody says that shit to me. Yeah, but I learned about this in doing Zendo. Do you know Zendo psychedelic peer support

[01:09:37] Zendo project is psychedelic peer support, supportive festivals, which is essentially, it's a safe space. It's a tent at a festival where you can go. If you're having a difficult psychedelic experience and someone will sit with you. And they make a big point that your job is to sit but not guide. And I first, worked with the Zendo in 2015 and wrote an article for Fest 300 called I did psychedelic first aid at a festival in Costa Rica.

[01:10:04] It was my first viral article that I ever wrote. And the second, viral article Everett first viral article I wrote. The one I did before was actually a curation of other things that other people on in the company had written. But anyway, it was 11 alternatives to burning man psychedelic peer support.

[01:10:23] So you're not supposed to solve a problem because the point is that the psychedelic medicine itself is allowing their own brain to solve their own problems. So actually, Anything you do is going to be intervention. So you're really not supposed to do anything cause you're not supposed to intervene, but you do need to be present and make them feel that you're with them.

[01:10:42] So you gently affirm you positively reflect you. Don't tell them to breathe, but you breathe slowly. You go get them water. And I've brought that into my life. Anytime I am wanting to be of service to someone who is in any kind of distress. I very rarely try to solve anyone's problem.

[01:11:04] And if I do, I will preface it by saying, may I offer a reflection? And what I've found is that people like that way more people like the space. To work it out. They want somebody to walk with them. Certainly I do when I'm grieving, when I'm at a mess and someone's have you thought about, I'm like shut up.

[01:11:29] I don't want to think at all. I just want to grieve and I want you to be here. Anyway, that's something I was thinking about in the it's and it's it's a similar thing to me at the dinner, at the at the, dinner party, when I'm like, Oh, this person said something, I can make it about myself.

[01:11:45] And then they'll like me. It's no, I can just ask them more about themselves. Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:11:50] CK: [01:11:50] So one thing that we, I do want to ask you about, your audience. Those are well connected influencers, they're entrepreneurs, they're just, they have a lot of respect for you as well.

[01:12:05] So how, when you go about it, I don't know if it is organic. I don't know if it's intentional. How do you go about cultivating? Your relationship with these group of influencers? 

[01:12:20] Eamon: [01:12:20] So first of all, audience is potentially a useful term because of the way people think about it, but really it's community, it's all community, it's community, all the way up and all the way down.

[01:12:29] And my audience is actually my community and part of how I've cultivated listenership to the podcast of people who are influential themselves are people who I've admired and connected with over time. And then most of the podcasts is really word of mouth. I do a little bit of social media spending to push it out a bit more, to get more people, to see it, who would, who have already expressed interest, but I am blessed, not blessed.

[01:13:02] That's the wrong word. I have cultivated a a pretty stellar global network because a lot of my work has been helping go connect with each other. And I'll tell you a quick story, because it's really relevant to this. It's from the show parks and recreation. Did you ever watch the show parks and recreation?

[01:13:23] CK: [01:13:23] I know of it 

[01:13:26] Eamon: [01:13:26] is easy in, sorry. So the main character, Leslie Knope is this super like sunny, bright character. And Ron Swanson is her curmudgeonly boss. And on this particular episode, they need, they're trying to throw a harvest festival and they need the police to, monitor it for free, or they won't have enough money to be able to throw it.

[01:13:50] The police chief owes Leslie Nopa favor. And and so they need to ask the police chief to do the harvest festival. And that's the favor to Leslie Knope. But what ends up happening is that Ron Swanson ends up going to jail. And it's not really his fault. He like punched someone in the face who deserve to be, he ends up going to jail.

[01:14:12] And so this is a bit of a long story, but we're getting, there. Leslie's. Leslie tells her boyfriend to ask the police chief as her favor. No, pardon me? No, that's not how it goes down. Leslie uses her favor to get Ron Swanson out of jail. And so that's the one favor. And so the harvest festival can happen.

[01:14:33] So then Leslie's boyfriend sheepishly goes to the goes to the police chief and says, look, I know that Leslie. Used her one favor to get Ron Swanson out of jail, but we can't throw the harvest festival without your help. Would you please consider helping us? And the police chief says, of course, no problem is there.

[01:14:57] I was like, wait, what? No, but you don't know us if you don't know us a favor and he's Leslie gets as many favors as she wants. And he's Oh, why is that? And he says, cause she always uses her favors for other people. 

[01:15:11] And 

[01:15:11] I remember when I watched that. It was very aspirational for me. I was like, I want to be that way.

[01:15:16] I want to be the person who people do things for, because when I ask for things, therefore other people and when I was doing Fest 300, yeah. The strategy was a kind of conspicuous generosity where it's basically and granted there's a privilege piece of this too, which is the website was privileged by the fact that we had chip Conley as our patron chip Conley, very successful hotelier, the guy who took air BNB global.

[01:15:43] Now during the modern elder and modern elder Academy, most important mentor of my life. Oh no, I've got a spiritual mentor now. Who's really close in the running, but very important mentor in my life. So he funded it and so we had a lot of resources and when you have more resources, it's easier to create abundance for other people.

[01:16:00] And that's a really important note because a lot of people talk about abundance, create abundance. You really need to acknowledge that. There's privilege. It's part of abundance and it's shitty not to acknowledge it. And we can talk a little bit more about that in my personal life as well. But essentially what we did with Fest 300 was like, Okay, you're a great photographer.

[01:16:18] We're going to get you a gig doing photography. You're a DJ. And we're going to connect you to this booking person. The booking person is try to book artists come through Australia. There's another festival that's happening to Thailand around the same time. Maybe they can color coordinate so they can bring in a bigger artist together.

[01:16:36] So like always Hey. Would you talk to this person because they need this thing. Hey, would you do this for that person? Because they need this. And can, you help me with this? Because I'm trying to help someone else. And the whole time I was doing class 300, like that's how I did the network building thing was and chip has a great way of defining this.

[01:16:56] He says like you have an emotional bank account in all your relationships. You never withdraw from it. You just invest in it. And then you live off the dividends. Basically, I don't know if he would say the live off the dividends part, but I think that's really how it works, but basically you you're always investing.

[01:17:14] You're always putting more in. And so like my relationship with chip, for example, I don't ask chip for stuff, even though he's super influential and can do a lot of things. I ask him I'm very precise about when I ask him things like, for example, I asked him to be on the podcast, but I think about what I can give him.

[01:17:32] And I think about what I can give other people. And I've found that by. Cultivating that over time. Now when I need things, I don't even really need to ask for them. A lot of the time, they just are happening more and more for me. And again, there's a privilege piece of that. Like it's not available, if you're broke and you're starting out in the world and someone's just give everybody everything.

[01:17:56] That's a kind of. Shitty thing to say you need to have a kind of like baseline ability to function and be able to create that abundance. But once you do, you can start creating the energy of gifting and abundance. And when you are creating more abundance around you, the type of people who want to be around you are the type of people who are also creating abundance.

[01:18:16] This happens so much in the burning man community, which also has its own privilege issue. But there's a sort of what we're, it's a gifting culture. So let me just give this to you. And I'll just give being in an environment where there's a constant sort of flow of generosity, levels it up for everybody else.

[01:18:31] And so to come back to your question, which is, why do I think that influential people listen to my podcast? I think it's because. I think it's an interesting podcast for one thing. I just think it's I personally am interested in it. So I'm always doing something interesting to me and so it's interesting to certain people.

[01:18:51] So there's the baseline quality is there, but it's also the people who it has already reached are people who have I've already. Connected with over time by building this kind of global network of helping people help each other. So that when the podcast comes out and the podcast isn't ad supported and it's it's a gift and it is, given in a gesture of Goodwill.

[01:19:12] It it can people like it. And then the last thing I'll say is that In terms of abundance. I try to like keep the vibe of abundance going. So I actually have a policy where if there is a podcaster who asks me and I'll tell them too, that they can ask me, I don't just I give a free hour coaching session to podcasters.

[01:19:37] As a way of giving back for the success of my work. So if I meet someone who I'm having a conversation and they want to launch a podcast, or the podcast will be like, I'll give you an hour of coaching. And it's a kind of, it's like a pay it forward kind of abundance thing where it's like, it doesn't matter if that person does anything for me, it's not strategic in that way.

[01:19:56] It's just it's. It's an ineffable quality of abundance that something else comes in and then you get supported in another way. You're creating a vibe where there's just more abundance around you. And I'd say that is, I'd say that my success in everything is based on that person on that like orientation.

[01:20:15] CK: [01:20:15] I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that abundance mindset help other help people, help other people by helping other people. And when you do ask ask on behalf of other people that's a, I actually got chills when you share that specific story because yeah. Cause 

[01:20:39] Eamon: [01:20:39] the Leslie Knope story.

[01:20:40] CK: [01:20:40] Yeah. Yeah. Cause most people had favors, they ask for it, for themselves. If you think about the best people that I know they typically are very much Hey, how can I. Ask you to help other people. So this, so thanks for sharing that. And one thing I, one comment I want to make about too, for anyone who is starting a shore, money's a currency relationship as a currency.

[01:21:08] Introduction is a currency, but you also don't forget. We have infinite. Currency of creativity, your own creativity James Altucher on one of my, another respected interviewer. He's amazing. How he started his career was by just generally giving people ideas. So like 10 ideas a day every day, and just say, Hey, here's something that's going to help your podcast, email, do whatever you want with it.

[01:21:36] He's not attached to what people do it. So that's another currency that people could use as well.

[01:21:44] Eamon: [01:21:44] In for people starting out, like my start was through volunteering for the burning man, special events team like volunteering your time and, but taking it seriously and not acting like this is a volunteer thing I'm doing on the side. I'm not going to go today.

[01:21:58] I don't need to, but acting like it's acting like it's the job you want until it is and for me, I was doing a social media marketing for the burning man special events team. And then I was like, Totally like blowing up the numbers of these offline events, like decompression and street fairs and that sort of thing.

[01:22:17] So all these other producers in San Francisco, were like, got wind to me. I was like, who's this guy. And then people started hiring me. And no, I, I think, yeah I'm very wary of that privilege thing. And because of that, sometimes I can equate All of this generosity, abundance and giving to money because I get nervous about the idea that someone without money but, really you can create an environment of abundance by giving all sorts of things.

[01:22:47] You don't have to give money, you don't have to have money. But I think when we are talking about material possessions, it's good to be aware of privilege. Do 

[01:22:55] CK: [01:22:55] you want to talk about that a bit? Cause you brought that up a 

[01:22:58] Eamon: [01:22:58] couple of yeah, So it's for the listener CK and I had a chat before this this conversation where I said that I wanted to talk about privilege.

[01:23:08] I am planning to have I think that it is very important in. This sort of like burning man community young entrepreneur community. There's a lot of stories of success that are being publicly presented and you look on Instagram and people at cool sunrise parties and far off places.

[01:23:36] And someone's I'm an entrepreneur. And I'm like, I'm doing this thing. And and the assumption is that everyone that you see is a self-made person that are especially with this kind of entrepreneurial narrative. And I think it's really important that we. Do a better job of owning the extra help that we get.

[01:23:56] And we're taught not to do that. And it's, gauche to talk about your ways that you might've gotten extra help. But I think that it's important that we do more of that. And it's something that I'd like to do more of. And so when we were talking about doing this podcast and we were talking about entrepreneurship and abundance, I feel like it's incumbent upon me to mention that I have had extra help.

[01:24:21] So it's not like I'm creating abundance out of nothing. And that's my success. My grandmother recently departed. She, died at 99 years old last year. Set up education funds for each myself in each of my two brothers. And my father, a successful stockbroker managed to make that more than it was supposed to be.

[01:24:42] So it was supposed to pay for college. It ended up being. A couple hundred thousand dollars more than paying for college. So I exited college with a couple hundred thousand dollars. And that wasn't the intention and I, don't really, I don't feel like a trust fund kid and I don't like that title an accidental kind of thing, but I had that extra boost and that extra boost gave me a lot of space to deal with difficult mental health issues.

[01:25:09] Gave me a lot of space to explore creativity, gave me a space to do things on my own terms. Now, granted, I think in some ways, Maybe held me back maybe if I had to fight harder right out of college, I would have found ways to get through certain limitations and maybe I would have been on a different life track.

[01:25:25] It doesn't really matter. I'm on the live track that I'm on. But I think that it's important when we're talking about abundance and talking about the school lifestyle and that sort of thing that I. I, don't live off of that money now. I I've made money in my life and I there's different ways than my I've had a relationship with money, but I think that it's important to name that I've had a little extra help.

[01:25:52] And so the life that I live and what I've been able to create has had a boost and to say nothing of the boost of being a white male in the context of America at this time, that's an enormous boost itself. I don't think that privilege is something that we need to hate ourselves for, or really to be ashamed about.

[01:26:14] But I think it's the type of thing where it's like, it should lead to more giving back and it should also lead to, it needs to be acknowledged more so that people aren't. Looking at lifestyles on Instagram and being like, Oh, I guess I'm just not trying hard enough or I'm not good enough that I don't have that most of the shit that you see on Instagram.

[01:26:31] It's like people getting help in different ways. People have legs, a leg up that they're not that they're not speaking to. And I think that I'd like us to speak to more of that in the burning man community and acknowledge that more. So this is the first time that I've really opened that up.

[01:26:45] I think I talked to maybe alluded to it on the podcast with Tim Chang, but I think it's something that needs to be part of our conversation. Yeah, 

[01:26:53] CK: [01:26:53] thanks for being open. And about the, privilege aspect of it. And from my point of view, here's the thing. Amen. It's I can't remember who said this quote.

[01:27:06] He says it's not about equal being equal. It's about having equal access to opportunities, right? So you have had a Lake up, but from my point of view, you're actively creating opportunities for others. 

[01:27:21] Eamon: [01:27:21] Equal access. 

[01:27:22] CK: [01:27:22] You know what I mean? So it's not, as you said, it's not, Hey, you had some privilege.

[01:27:29] And so we were a lot of other people, but what you're doing is you're actually doing the work by providing equal access to a lot of new opportunities by making introductions, by being on other people's shows, by donating your time, teaching them how to do their podcast. So you might mind you're already doing that.

[01:27:48] Eamon: [01:27:48] Thank you. And I think that I may have a bit of a limitation in that itself. Like we were talking earlier on the show about how I don't think of myself as an entrepreneur. And I think that part of that is I don't, I'm not an entrepreneur. Like I've had a little extra help, so I'm, giving more back.

[01:28:04] Like I'm I, so I think it's really what it comes down to is as we move through our lives let me start again. As I moved through my life, my primary goal is to release limitations and to expand the potential for myself and those around me. That's all. So the limitation of, Oh, I don't like money.

[01:28:29] I don't deserve money. The limitation of, Oh, I need money. I've got to grab it. Whatever I can do to clean my vessel, to have a more expansive experience of living and be able to share that's what I want to do. And and again, and also to just have no regrets and be like, okay I'm as involved as I am right now, because this is as far as I've gotten, who knows what I'll be like in a couple of years, maybe at some point I will have a incredible entrepreneurial hunger and I'll build an empire of multiple podcasts and I'll help all sorts of young podcasters get a, head start, maybe that'll be a future.

[01:29:04] But I think that the whole name of the game is to. Release our limitations. And so I think part of why I want to acknowledge having some extra support too, is if you're listening and you didn't get extra support and you're comparing yourself to other people people get a lot of help. So don't I don't want to say don't compare yourself to other people.

[01:29:27] Cause I don't want to tell anybody what to do, but like you're you, have the goals you have and, You'll find your way to give that to the world. So it seems a little pithy 

[01:29:41] CK: [01:29:41] yeah. Let's actually talk about that a bit. The, self-esteem rollercoaster, right? Hey, if I succeed, I'm the King.

[01:29:48] If I fail, I'm worse than dirt, right? That's very similar. Really that's a human challenge. 

[01:29:55] But 

[01:29:56] entrepreneur specifically. Cause I do that's, my community, right? So I talked to a lot of them and that's the roller coaster ride. So as soon as you've done a lot of different transformative experiences that's, your jam.

[01:30:09] That's my jam. So let's keep talking about those things a bit. Could you recall a time where you were in a dark empty soul moment where you're like shit, this is. I need some help. So can you go back to that moment there? Can we, then we can talk about some of the tools that you have come across to really help you get out of those dark moments.

[01:30:33] Eamon: [01:30:33] Friday or do you want to go back and you want to go back far? I'm just having a spiritual crisis in an Ashram for the past week. It's pretty fresh. I'm always in those. I'm always doing those. I'm a like I definitely feel like I've got some of the tonality of a bipolar in my landscape. I have those alive, but I think that what would be most helpful would be to go, a ways back.

[01:31:03] And to the time of my second major depressive episode in my life, I've had three big ones. And my second one, I was living in Oakland and all I did all day, I worked at borders bookstore, and I drank alcohol. I smoked pot and I played world of Warcraft and I played guitar. And that's the, that's all I did for a year.

[01:31:26] And I was like would have been suicidal if I wasn't terrified of how much pain it would. Cause those around me, I was like very, in a very, dark place and a place from which I you know, really scraping the bottom of the barrel and and ridiculously 

[01:31:48] CK: [01:31:48] because autumn the barrel, what does 

[01:31:49] Eamon: [01:31:49] that mean?

[01:31:50] Just I have this idea in my mind of like, a wine barrel and there's this sort of like gummy gritty stuff down at the bottom. Like I was the gummy gritty down at the bottom of the barrel and just what I was, I literally wouldn't like eat spaghetti with cheese on it and drink new castle beers every night by myself.

[01:32:18] Like it was just like, and now that I know what happens with your gut, I'm like, Oh no, that was not helping the depression. But yeah pretty, severe, depression at that point. And so I'd say that was when I was like 24 25 So 

[01:32:33] CK: [01:32:33] what what, helped you get out of those dark moments?

[01:32:46] Eamon: [01:32:46] Life is a magical adventure. And I also think that life itself is something that you're in a dance with. Like you get stuck and it pokes you out and I feel like I'm the, lived experience is a reciprocal one. And so for me, it was collection of of a couple of different things that happen at once.

[01:33:12] I went to the Amazon with my mom and this is before I knew about plant medicine at all, but I met a shaman who did like a tobacco clearing didn't take any plant medicine or anything, just Shaman blew smoke in my face. And I didn't know anything about it. It was like, we were a bunch of just tourists.

[01:33:28] And they asked if there was a volunteer who wanted to come out to do like a traditional shot and blessed, super white tourist shit. But I attribute that as, something I discovered an amino acid supplement. That was not an antidepressant, but that actually really helped.

[01:33:48] It really helped my methylation cycle, which affects my brain affected my brain chemistry. It's called Same S a M dash E or a capital S a N lowercase C. And that was, that kind of gave me I feel like assisted the neurochemistry. And then the biggest one that happened at that time, and it happened just spontaneously was I had this kind of.

[01:34:12] Realization that I had been blaming my father and his mistakes during my childhood for the life I was living. And I was living a life that was very lame to punish him, basically see you ruined me because you hurt me when I was a little boy. And so this is the only life I'm capable of. And. I hadn't known, I didn't know that I was doing that, but I was totally doing that.

[01:34:40] I was just like it's, already too late for me. And, I, checked that, like I stopped and I was like, wait, I've got I've got this extra money. I, graduated from a good school and I'm, what do I want? If I, if my life weren't dictated by the story of the wounding of my father, if that wasn't my life, what would my life be?

[01:35:01] I guess I would get to author it myself. I guess I would get to decide myself what I want my life to be. And so at the time I went to a party on Haight street in San Francisco and there was a band playing and they had a record player and I was like you know what I want, to live on Haight street and I want to have a band and I want to have a record player.

[01:35:21] And so I was like, okay why don't I just do that? And it was interesting how I was like that was, really the big switch for me was if I stopped blaming, if I stopped living this life, that's a sort of blame, punishment thing. What do I want? And what does it look like if I start going after what I want.

[01:35:37] And as I started going after what I want, it inacted a sort of chain reaction of Not the kind of compulsive, Oh, I want to eat a chocolate, but the sort of what is my cutting more touch with the desire that moves me through the world. So I want a record player. Cause that seems cool.

[01:35:53] And I want to listen to records and I want to start a band. And it was the band that turned into the community that took me to burning man, which led to the gig with Bernie man, which led to the gigs with other producers, which led to Fest 300, which you know, and on and so it was like, so for someone who's listening, who is like in one of those stuck places, Tap into your desire and see is there something that you can go for?

[01:36:19] Is there something that is beyond the amelioration of negative feelings? That is like something to really go for that. Isn't just like a miserable and I wish I weren't miserable. So horrible. 

[01:36:33] CK: [01:36:33] Quick question. So there's that Epic, funny moment. There's that insight? Hey, I would like to live on Haight street.

[01:36:39] Oh no, Before that, Hey, I was blaming my father. So I'm living this way then, there's desire. I am wanting to live on at Haight street and playing a band or so forth. So that's an insight, right? Or two insights. How do you go from insight to shift a way of being, because let's say a lot of people have desire, but then there's resistance.

[01:37:03] That's blocking them to making that shift of being, does that make sense? Can you zoom in even more on how you were able to shift going from insight to. Actually taking action to moving to hay street.

[01:37:23] Eamon: [01:37:23] I know how I do that. Now. I know how I cultivate that now because I've learned how to do it. And I do it quite intentionally. Then I think it was honestly, I think it was grace. I think it was less like now it's have the revelation, anchor it, turn it into a practice. Come out of your Iowasca ceremony and do wake up early meditate and do yoga a little bit every day, cultivate your integration.

[01:37:52] Like I know that now, but I didn't know that then I think it was just like taking the leap and saying at the time I was living in Oakland and, I was like, okay, I want to move to San Francisco. I'm going to move to eighth street. So I'm going to try to do that. And There's a great Terence McKenna quote about nature, loves courage.

[01:38:12] And I don't have the whole thing memorized, but essentially it says like nature loves courage. Act from God. I wish I had it

[01:38:26] when we're live. See, this is why I don't like to do them live. Now. I just, I got something beautiful for you, but I don't remember 

[01:38:34] CK: [01:38:34] the key words. 

[01:38:35] Eamon: [01:38:35] Justin Terence McKenna nature loves courage. The point being is it was it was a combination of going for it and just the grace I, think maybe it's like before you learn how to anchor transformative experiences into your life through wise integrative practices, it's really courage and grace it's really just leaping into the abyss.

[01:39:02] And this is the end of okay. Nature loves courage. You make the commitment and nature will respond to that commitment by removing the impossible obstacles, dream, the impossible dream, and the world will not grind you under. It will lift you up. This is the trick. This is what all these teachers and philosophers who really counted really touched the alchemical gold.

[01:39:24] This is what they understood. This is the shamanic dance in the waterfall. This is how magic is made by hurling yourself into the abyss. And discovering gets a feather bed. 

[01:39:38] CK: [01:39:38] Thank you. No, it's beautifully said. Man, I can talk to you for hours. Do you mind doing a little bit of rapid fire questions?

[01:39:47] Cause I know that you have 11. 

[01:39:50] Eamon: [01:39:50] Yeah, I was. I was about to say I can talk to you for hours. I can talk to you for hours, but I don't know that I could be smart and podcasts for hours because I am a little, I am a little worn out from all this spiritual effort I've been doing for the past week and it's occurred to me that I'm just like, Not feeling like a witty, I like, I had some moments in the podcast where I was feeling like sharp and witty.

[01:40:11] And right now I'm just like jumping into the abyss and get into bed. But yeah, that's rapid fire with the caveat that I make no claims to any profundity. 

[01:40:22] CK: [01:40:22] Great. Wonderful. That's the best I just go with flow, man. So 

[01:40:26] Eamon: [01:40:26] let's see. Maybe we do, it like really rapid fire. Like I'll just say something and maybe it'll be garbage, but 

[01:40:32] CK: [01:40:32] let's do this.

[01:40:33] Wasn't unusual habit. Or observed thing that you love?

[01:40:44] I definitely didn't do that quickly at all. Unusual habit or an absurd thing that I love. Okay.

[01:40:56] Eamon: [01:40:56] I like to sexy dance, like a girl when I'm by myself. 

[01:41:00] CK: [01:41:00] Whoa. I like 

[01:41:02] that. 

[01:41:02] Eamon: [01:41:02] Yeah. I'd like to just be like super like feminine, like something I would never do for anybody else. I like to do it for myself and be like, Oh, you can do anything you want. Like all of my, adolescent fear of being thought of as gay, I like just released by just having a sexy kind of dance that I do for myself on my own.

[01:41:24] CK: [01:41:24] I like that. Awesome. What's. One of the best or most worthwhile investment you've ever made the money, time, money, energy, relationships, et cetera. 

[01:41:37] Eamon: [01:41:37] Okay. When I was at Fest 300 I did something great. It was my first viral article and chip came to me and he said, look, we only do raises once a year, but you've just knocked it out of the park and I want to reward you.

[01:41:52] So I want you to think of something to ask me for. And ask me for something and I'll give it to you. And I'm sure he thought I would ask for like a vacation or get to be, to get, to be sent to a really cool festival. But what I said to him is when you first hired me as a social media manager, you told me that I should find a social media manager.

[01:42:12] I admire and take them out to lunch once a month so that I could grow into a better social media manager. But the thing is, I don't want to be a social media management. I want to be you. So I'm wondering if, as the thing that I ask you for, can I take you out to lunch once a month and learn to be more like you?

[01:42:28] And he was like, wow, that's a really great answer. And that was the beginning of Chip's mentorship of me. And he mentored me for four years. And not that investment of him saying, you can ask for something you want. It was like the best thing I've ever asked for in my life, because that paid, I learned so much from him and it was such an incredible, it has been such an incredible relationship.

[01:42:51] CK: [01:42:51] You can just open that loop let's I want to go into it. So it's not going to be a rapid 

[01:42:55] Eamon: [01:42:55] fire question. Rapid fire. Okay. Fine. Okay. Fine. 

[01:43:00] CK: [01:43:00] What are the three things, top things that you learned from chip Conley? 

[01:43:06] Eamon: [01:43:06] The emotional bank account thing. How to manage someone by It's a, bit of an artistic thing, so it's hard to just easily break it down, but how to manage someone by making them feel amazing about themselves and yet encouraging them to stretch further.

[01:43:27] So my chip has this mentor, this management skill, where you just feel totally loved. Totally accepted and yet you can and wants to do more. And it's something that I, when I manage people, I try to cultivate that with them. So that was really valuable. And then 

[01:43:45] CK: [01:43:45] how do you do that 

[01:43:48] Eamon: [01:43:48] when you first of all, you love them.

[01:43:51] Like you should always, I would not manage someone that I didn't love. That I didn't want I want them to succeed. I want them to be their best selves. So I'm managing someone right now at Maya. Her name is Lisa and she is a total rock star, like MVP on the team. She doesn't need a manager to tell her to work harder or to set her more goals.

[01:44:13] Actually what she needs is someone to tell her, to chill out, help her balance, her work, life relationship. So that's what I do. And because I do that and because I have this sort of She like, she struck the thing is, she stretches herself because she's in a safe, like relation, like employment relationship.

[01:44:33] And she said to me that this is the best worker, like best employment relationship she's ever had because she wants to, stretch. She wants to succeed, but she doesn't feel like it's being pulled out of her. Like you don't pull a Rose to make it grow. Now I'm lucky because I'm managing a total rockstar and I've only ever managed rockstars.

[01:44:54] Actually. I don't think I've never managed someone who has felt like, a difficult person to manage. Okay. Three things that chip taught me. Number three just, Which is the name of chips, hotel company, but like chip has a joy to life and his joy to life is really infectious. And it's really all of his like business acumen is imbued with this incredible joy and it's easy to get caught up in Oh, it's not gonna work out, like grab too tight but Chip's been through many different crisises, financial and otherwise, and he keeps his joy.

[01:45:34] And I think his joy is probably his most profound leadership tool. 

[01:45:37] CK: [01:45:37] Did he teach you a particular discipline or cultivation as a way to cultivate that?

[01:45:46] Eamon: [01:45:46] Not really. He, I think that the value of a good mentor is really modeling. And also what I think the number one value of a good mentor is, that they show you. That you are worth the time of someone who you admire and in doing so, they show you that you can be like them. So like the fact that chip has put so much into me and into our relationship has shown me that someone of that level of success.

[01:46:16] Believes in me. And it allows me to believe more deeply in myself. So he he definitely gave me suggestions about how to do certain things at certain times, but I don't really remember any of it. I think I'm woven into my like way of doing things. But when I think of what he gave me his, presence and his love and his sort of modeling leadership is what I really think of.

[01:46:39] You got to go back to rapid fire because you can't just do, 

[01:46:42] CK: [01:46:42] sorry. All right. A quick response and rapid fire, quick response. When we look for mentors teachers, Gurus for me, used to be about the content, that gift. Then I really, then I had my spiritual awakening, then I really appreciate it.

[01:47:00] Now it's more of an energetic transmission. And it's less about so it's that the way of being there, the way they live, their life how they, are beyond just the coaching sessions how they live their life. 

[01:47:16] Eamon: [01:47:16] Yeah. And also, I don't know, content isn't even really that valuable to me because I can't remember anything anyway.

[01:47:21] And most things I can just go fine. So someone told me like, this is a great, like business technique. I'd be like, okay. But how does it feel? If it feels, if it's like, the management thing and part of why it's hard to answer it is because to me, it's, to me, it's art to me, it's like the way that I manage the way that I manage people in work, it's art, it's about them.

[01:47:47] It's about what I see in them and about how to cultivate their best. So in the case of Lisa, for example, it's actually about letting her know that, like I have her. Broader interest in mind. And when we're talking about a project, she can trust me to help her prioritize it in the right way so that she can achieve it in the way that really works, rather than by pushing hard lifting heavy and ultimately burning out.

[01:48:11] CK: [01:48:11] Yeah. Last question. What. What's the books or resources that you appoint people to. If they want to learn more about the art of conversation, the art of relationship building, the art of community building. 

[01:48:28] Eamon: [01:48:28] I got a lot of books that I love and most of them are about one's relationship with oneself. If I, if you ask me books too, that you would recommend, it's also aligns a little bit with the content thing.

[01:48:41] I don't really know a books that tell you how to be a good community builder. But I do know of books that have widened the possibility of my being and have therefore made me better at many things. I just recently finished Anthony de Mello, his way to love, which is. Something that I'm using to help me get off the external validation train, which I think will ultimately make me better at everything that I do.

[01:49:08] I'm also rereading Pema Sjogrens when things fall apart, give you a little perspective of where my mind has been. Finite and infinite games, which I mentioned earlier. I love Getting shit done. If you're trying to get shit done. The war of art is a wonderful thing about a wonderful book about the creative process.

[01:49:30] What else? Letters to a young poet by real  is another great one. In terms of getting going and getting things done. 

[01:49:40] CK: [01:49:40] Book about the collection of how fast this works. 

[01:49:43] Eamon: [01:49:43] Oh yeah. Yeah. So I I, always travel with the gift, which is a lovely translation of how peace poetry and Hafiz is just so remarkable.

[01:49:57] Wonderful Sufi poet. Yeah, there's a lot of really great books out there. I, don't know that I do any reading about community, but do you know any books about community development that are like, Oh yeah, that's the book. 

[01:50:12] CK: [01:50:12] Great question. Not really. 

[01:50:14] Eamon: [01:50:14] Yeah, I don't really know when maybe that needs to be written, but As we talked about earlier on the podcast, I don't want to write a book.

[01:50:23] I'll just, do a podcast about it. 

[01:50:26] CK: [01:50:26] Suggestion. Not necessarily you offering the thing you can do like a 

[01:50:32] tribal man. 

[01:50:34] No, tribal mentors type thing where you basically allow bits and pieces from everyone that you interview 

[01:50:41] about 

[01:50:42] it 

[01:50:43] Eamon: [01:50:43] Tribe of mentors is, was the move. That was the move.

[01:50:46] 10 knows what's up, man. Tim is so good at what he does. He's definitely been a big role model of mine in this space. But yeah, I think at some point I'll, at some point I'll produce a life as a festival. Something that sort of is the accumulate and I journal every day. So I have like tons and tons of writing.

[01:51:04] So it may be at some point that writing may be useful. But right now I need to crack the, I need to crack the code of being, sitting alone with myself long enough to actually put the heavy work into a book. And in spite of all of the the Vipasana and he yoga and all the different things I do, I still I still get pretty restless and cagey when I am alone and that's my work.

[01:51:31] And that's the work that this season is for. So maybe, we can check in the spring and my will be like, you know what? I can write a book now because. Yeah, a better relationship to this 

[01:51:40] CK: [01:51:40] boy. Amen. Just want to take a moment to just really acknowledge you for being here, especially after spiritual transformational experience the willingness to be open to, step into the unknown, to dance with me in this conversation.

[01:52:01] We talk about a lot of different topics from. Sitting with that discomfort to, community building, we zoom in and out of it. So it really, just appreciate for you more than the content, but just how you're showing up and how you're leaning into the discomfort of revealing something that you may feel a little bit uncomfortable with by you courageously step into the fire.

[01:52:29] Anyway. So, thank you for just being a tremendous example of, your path, your work. 

[01:52:36] Eamon: [01:52:36] Thank you. And I want to say one quick thing about courage and vulnerability. Openness, isn't the same as courageous vulnerability. If you know that you are going to be rewarded for what you say, even if what you say is very appears, very vulnerable, it's actually not vulnerable.

[01:52:54] And this is the thing about performative vulnerability that I've noticed for me saying publicly that I had extra money when I left college. That's vulnerable for me, because I don't think that's something that people are going to say, Oh, he's great for that. I like that. He has. I think it's more of the opposite.

[01:53:12] It's Oh, huh? You had some extra money. No wonder Like you're one of those guys, just something to come back to the very, beginning of the conversation to talk about courage and vulnerability. Openness, isn't the same as courageous vulnerability. And I think that we do grow when we are more courageous and actually when we're more courageous and more vulnerable in a real way, we actually can really support people around us and set the tone for certain things.

[01:53:39] So whether or not you dear listener find yourself a bit annoyed that I Low the term trust fund, but had some of that extra, I feel good about having said it, even though it makes me uncomfortable. Yeah. 

[01:53:55] CK: [01:53:55] Some of the most poignant moments of this podcast, it's actually exactly, as you said, when people share about their darkest moments, when they're actually literally staring down the barrel of a gun and decided whether or not to pull the trigger, those are the moments where people write back to us and say, Hey, we actually.

[01:54:14] I actually thought about doing this and thanks to the courageous vulnerability of this guest chair I decided to choose otherwise. 

[01:54:25] Eamon: [01:54:25] So that actually 

[01:54:26] CK: [01:54:26] feel very worthwhile. We actually literally save a life. So thank you so much as being open and be willing to do that. 

[01:54:35] Eamon: [01:54:35] Thank you so much for having me on the show and I appreciate you reaching out and inviting me and I feel very seen, and it helps me think of myself more as an entrepreneur and think of life as a festival is more of an entrepreneurial venture, which of course it is.

[01:54:48] So I appreciate that reflection and I appreciate it. Being on your program. 

[01:54:53] CK: [01:54:53] Beautiful. I definitely wanted to talk to you more about psychedelics, but we'll save into a party. 

[01:54:58] Eamon: [01:54:58] Oh yeah. We didn't do any psychedelics. I'm talking about psychedelics so much over the past since I started doing my it's all psychedelics.

[01:55:05] So I'm actually, I appreciate that. We didn't do a second. Thank you. Thank you so much.


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