My next guest is Josh Brill. He is a music and mindfulness coach, artist, and entrepreneur.
He is an acclaimed guitarist and producer, founder of Yoga of Guitar, Yoga of Ukulele, and a transformational guide with over 32 years of experience.
With over 27 years of guitar teaching experience including a position teaching at Berklee College of Music, Josh combines his vast experience as a professional musician and as a master teacher to educate internationally on the power of music as a mindfulness practice.
Josh’s life and career as a professional musician further developed and evolved through his work and participation with Robert Fripp and the Guitar Craft/Guitar Circle and Orchestra of Crafty Guitarists courses and projects.
As a musical artist, Josh’s current focus is on producing and releasing music as medicine. Medicine music intentionally created to induce a calm mind, an open heart, a relaxed meditative state of being and gently touch the sensitive depths of the human experience with textural tones of a transcendent harmony that feeds the soul with ‘good sounds and good feels.’
We Talked About:
- The power of believing in yourself, your abilities, and your path
- The benefits of constant inner inquiry
- What is the atomic unit of music practice to assure mastery
- Why put ourselves in a relaxed and receptive state when we learn is the best way to learn?
- How his perfectionism robbed him of the joy of music and accumulated into a complete physical, emotional, mental burnout?
- How music brought him back from complete burnout and put himself back together to enjoy music and life again?
- Why the lack of body connection is the source where most people struggle with playing instruments?
- The 2 leverages of internal alignment: attention and engagement
- How ayahuasca refined his understanding of attention and sound and music?
- The specific music mechanics composers use to evoke positive or negative emotions by design
- Mysticism is the exploration of mystery and how music helps us explore the mystery of the universe
Wisdom QuotesI was given a lot of gifts. It just, it wasn't the ones that I thought they were. I was given the gift of knowing I needed to do this and having tenacity. I had amazing teachers at every level of my progression. I had the perfect teacher… Click To Tweet I always felt it was possible. So even when it was difficult or seemingly impossible there is a part of me that knew there was a way to do this. If other people can do it, then I can as well. And it was then became almost like a puzzle.… Click To Tweet if you ask your finger to do this and in this hand to do this and either the note comes out or it doesn't. And if it comes out, is it clear if you put three in a row, are you able to do that evenly? Are unintended notes happening along… Click To Tweet Cheap fuel becomes expensive in the longterm Click To Tweet Personally, I'm less interested in showing somebody how to play a C chord versus helping people feel their hand from the inside out and understand their mind and like connect to themselves. So the music becomes a part of that development… Click To Tweet if we are in a locked up way place, it's not really gonna support our progress or our ability to be in the moment with what we're doing, which music is a hundred percent depends on. Click To Tweet I was striving for excellence all the time. That quite literally every note I played had all of this pressure on it. So it robbed the joy of the experience. And the stress accumulated into physical burnout. had body issues, emotional… Click To Tweet So when I was able to reframe and from the experiential level and necessity level of literally finding a way to use music, to put myself back together in a way that I actually enjoyed music again and enjoyed life, it helped me with my… Click To Tweet All we really have in any moment is the moment. So then the question is how much of the moment do we have and what is our experience of that? Click To Tweet A function of music is a means to begin to stabilize the mind specifically our attention and begin to regulate it which leads to a stable interior architecture that we really can begin to build something on. Click To Tweet if we are going to ask our body to do something, we probably should be in our body. So we probably ought to be present in our body. If we are going to move it and allow the body to move from the body standpoint, one of the reasons most… Click To Tweet There are no shortcuts. There are definitely long cuts. The 20/80 rule is internal alignments. The internal alignment as the primary thing to learn then opens up the path in a much greater way because alignment brings a clear mind or a… Click To Tweet Internal alignments, which is necessitated on understanding attention. Attention and engagement are connected with each other. If you just continue to engage with the process and continue to develop the internal awarenesses and the… Click To Tweet If you continue to work with something that feels nurturing if the music is even relaxing your nervous system at the same time and teaching you how to do it internally, then you're going to have a much more open space to engage with the… Click To Tweet When we're in the learning state, it actually is of the utmost importance, not to have any stress or negative emotions because we're going to absorb those things more likely because we're in that like open, receptive state. Click To Tweet Patients happens naturally. It's the natural outcome of compassion. Patience is the outcome of compassion. And also the regulated nervous system. Click To Tweet Ayahuasca further refines my understanding of attention and how to work with it. Becoming more aware especially when the mind is drifting Click To Tweet The right notes, vibrating together, create a shape. And some shapes are more symmetrical, which we experienced is balanced in. Some shapes are more symmetrical, which we experience as dissonance. Click To Tweet When we see musicians and we get intoxicated by it, part of it, I think is how deep they are internal. Click To Tweet
Transcript by AI
Welcome to Nobel warrior. My name is CK Lin noble warriors were interviewed consciousness center entrepreneurs about their journey from warrior to commander, to King. We'll deconstruct and mindset, mental models, actionable tactics. So you can go take everything you learn and go on and build your business your life with more impact than fulfillment.
My next guest is the founder of yoga of guitar. The yoga of ukulele is a master musician and a master music teacher and a transformational guy with over 32 years of experience, we covered a lot of grounds in our conversation. We talked about the power of believing yourself, your abilities and your path.
We talked about a way to measure your progress in music. What is the atomic unit of practice? We talked about how music became a part of his development of inner inquiry, alignment of tuning in harmony.
We talked about his earlier days when he's perfectionism, Rob, the joy of music from him and accumulating into this complete burnout, physical, emotional, and mental, and how you actually found a way to put himself back together with music and enjoy music and life again
and how music is a way to stabilize the inner architecture of the mind that we can build our life on and how mysticism S the exploration of mystery and how music helps all of us explore the mystery of the universe.
Please enjoy my conversation with Josh Brill.
Thank you, sir. Kay, it's really good to be here. Thank you so much for being here, Josh. I'm so looking forward to having this conversation, and here's why I'm particularly interested in hearing your story now in your other public appearances, you had said earlier that you weren't always a gifted. Music student, you weren't blessed with it. And then now you are a master teacher and a master coach, a guide, to help others to learn the musical skills. So I would love to hear just for, to set a context for any of you who is listening, tell us a little bit of that journey.
From someone who had a calling for music, but we weren't so gifted with it. And then how did you become, so this is your mass fall teacher. Yeah. The short answer is time and effort, 32 years of learning and practicing and learning and practicing. A longer answer would be something inside of the eight year old self knew it needed to do this thing. And even though I don't feel like I was naturally gifted as a musician, some people happen to have an acuity or, that sort of alignment developed. For me it wasn't, but I had tenacity.
There was something inside of me. That knew I needed to do this thing. So I did it and a couple, there's been a lot of blessings. It's interesting. What, gifted being a gifted musician and all these words, I've noticed in my professional life. And through this whole perspective, it ends up being the rare of the case.
And even the people who have been given gifts, they still have to work on developing technique and finding their craft in their arts. But what I've recognizing now is I was given a lot of gifts. It just, it wasn't the ones that I thought they were basically I was given the gift of.
Knowing I needed to do this and having tenacity. I had amazing teachers at every level of my progression. I had the perfect teacher for that moment or that period of time. I met. My first teacher was really good at helping me find ways to engage with the instrument and find creative practices.
It wasn't just learn this, but it was really he was in tune with myself and I felt, and he w he was a good teacher sometimes, especially in the musical world, in the guitar world. You have guitar teachers by default. That maybe they didn't make it or the trying to make it as a professional musician.
So this is what they're doing, but maybe the heart's not into it or they don't even know how to teach. He was a good teacher. He still is. He's still teaching. And then my next teacher was appropriate for that phase. And then after that, my next, so I would say just looking back it's been time, it's been having a proper, the proper guides along the way.
And I always felt it was possible. So even when it was difficult or seemingly impossible there is a part of me that knew there was a way to do this. If other people can do it, then I CA I can as well. And it was then became almost like a puzzle. What do I need to figure out inside? Okay, I'm not hearing that note or I'm, or my time is off, or I'm struggling with this.
Why is that and how come that's happening. And I think that's the inner inquiry really was another gift along the way to get from very beginner to now, which it's an interesting journey, yeah. So I'm particularly interested in speaking to you because the way you described younger self accurately describes someone like me, right?
Who is interested in music, who is not particularly gifted. And who's also super Hetty. Yeah. So I love your philosophy of your way of teaching which we'll dive into it more later on. But I want to do a quick recap, for those of you who are listening, what Josh has.
Beautifully articulated is to me the map of learning anything. So we're going to do not just his story about also the metacognition aspect of it, learning how to learn right. This aspect. So then that way you can take this on to learn a musical instrument. You feel like starting a business, if you like, as long as on, yeah. So you said, when you said you were gifted with a vision, which is rare, by the way, you know what the, you are very clear about your vision, and then you also had a belief in the path. If other people can do it. I can do it too. So it's a learnable skill. It's not some intangible thing out there that you can never get to.
And then you were very strategic, very intentional about finding the right teacher or solving a particular problem. So you can step-by-step moving towards this vision that you have. Is that an accurate reflection of what you said? Yeah. Some of it was a lot of it was blessings along the way of the teachers, of being in the rights.
Like I didn't find my first teacher like intentionally, but yeah. What you're saying. Yeah. Yeah, I'm getting a little bit nitpicky on some of the words, but yeah. Okay, good. So here's one thing I would want to ask you is this there's a different, there's a number of different ways we can go about it, but here's the first one.
Question. Sometimes the vision is so big. It's so big. So grand, that feels like a weight and it could easily become despair. Oh, my skill. Dwarfs in comparison to this vision that I have. How did you keep going and overcome this internal burden and then keep going anyway, chip in which had been in, which had been away in spite of I'm sure the initial days were really difficult.
You didn't see results coming back. There is no positive feedback. There's no applause. Your teacher may even be a little bit harsh on you, so how did you overcome this? Internal barrier of, no positive feedback during the initial days. Yeah. And it's interesting as you're asking that like the different phases of, I think my progression of learning that was a pretty constant, it, we always want more, and it's hard to just accept where we're at and it's actually a beautiful part of learning music.
Is at every level of growth you begin to be like, Oh, but I want that it's a little bit intoxicating and addicting and it can be frustrating and overwhelming at the same point. And I feel like throughout the whole process there, the navigating that is tricky and something to sort out in my own experience when I was a very beginner.
I was eight, so I was blessed with a certain youthful naivete and in this was 88 as well. So pre-internet, maybe we had a VHS player there wasn't a whole lot of distractions in the world. We didn't have cable at the time. So I guess I didn't have a lot, I, there was no comparison at that point.
I just knew I wanted to do it. And but it was hard. I do remember moments of not practicing, of course, as any beginner oftentimes does, whether they're eight or 38 or 58, it's challenging at first, like it's you are moving a Boulder. And as you're saying it takes some time until you get some momentum, some positive feedback.
So I'm feeling of success. I remember crying my parents being like if you're not going to practice, we're going to stop lessons. And there was something inside of me that just knew I needed to do it. And it came out. I remember emotionally of just no, I need, I don't stop. I really wanted to do it.
I remember my first lesson and the teacher showed me two chords. He showed me a G chord with the plate with just one finger and then a D chord, which has three fingers. And I remember going home after the lesson and practicing the G with just this one finger on one string and I could do it. And I was like, wow, that's great.
And then this D chord felt impossible. And I remember that. And I remember ma I don't think I had all the cognition at the time, but I remember it. I remember the experience of I know this one was possible, so this other one must be possible at some points. And I just got to get there, but like at that point in my life, there wasn't a pressure about it. It was just, I guess it was just like a childhood curiosity and a magnetism to it. My teacher at that time, there was never any negative feedback. He was very supportive of the process. I'm sure if I didn't practice for a week and he knew it there might be some, Hey, what's up with that?
Like checking in but I never felt like I was in trouble, there was always a sense of encouragement. I would say later on in my development when I was 12, I knew that's what I wanted to do with my life. It became very clear that this is it was just a knowing, okay, this is what I'm doing on that professional level.
You want to yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And there were times where I think in that development, especially maybe teenage years, And twenties to some degree where I did feel like I wasn't enough. In fact, I even saw a therapist for a little while because I was about 16 or 17 and I didn't feel like I was practicing enough and I didn't know how to reconcile that because I wanted to practice more, but I didn't feel like it was enough.
And it made me I was confused by it. And I was hard on myself around it and part of it because I didn't want to reach these next levels. And I think, one of the beautiful aspects of music as a teacher is it will show you what level you're of capability you're able to work with it.
If you're very honest. Yeah, go ahead. So pause on that for a moment, because in my mind, as an layman, looking at musicians, music is so intangible. So it's hard for me to even grasp, Oh, I'm level one versus two, four. It's not super scientific, but you have a perspective. You can actually objectively measure the level of skills that you may have.
Can you share that with us? Yeah it's not like scientific in a very linear way per se, but how about this, if you ask your finger to do this and in this hand to do this and either the note comes out or it doesn't. I see. And if it comes out, is it clear if you put three in a row, are you able to do that evenly?
Are unintended notes happening along the way? So there's like music gives a feedback of your, acuity.
does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Thank you. That paints my skill, my musical skill of playing the ukulele right now. Very well. It does something in a fingered is wouldn't catch up with what I wanted to do for sure. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. So there was definitely really deep moments, especially having this pressure on myself of, I need to be this good.
This is my thoughts right now to be able to do this thing that I know I need to do. And I would say there's sometimes that was like fuel for improvement and practice. Oftentimes it not though. And I don't think I really realized that until later life, somewhat reasonably that personally, I tend to I don't work well under stress and pressure, and I had this cycle of putting pressure and stress on myself and then I would be stressed and that I wasn't doing it.
And I didn't really realize up until it really recently that part of the reason I wasn't doing it was because I had this pressure on myself to do it. It's a music is a a beautiful teacher. If you stay with it, it really reveals a lot. So let's, since you brought it up, let's just go there right away.
The way I see our emotions or even our mental models, all of these is different types of fuel. So anger or resentment, you could use that as a motivational force, motivational fuel, for sure. To show someone that, Hey, you were wrong. I was right. Or coming from purpose or calling something like that.
So there are just different types of fuel in my mind using pressure of force or as a way it's a very cheap feel. Yeah. And it does produce results initially for some people, for some people. And for me, initially it produce a lot of results would actually work. But then after a while, I also started incurred the cost of using this cheap fuel.
Yeah. He was like, Oh my God, the whole journey is so miserable. And then there's the supposed joy. And the destination is so fleeting too, because in the beginning was, maybe. A few days of joy. And then after that it's a few hours and then a few minutes, and then at some point it's becomes like nanoseconds of joy and then there's this, pressure comes down again.
Okay. Okay. What's next. So yeah. So that's the way it kinda, I think about it in terms of using different ways to motivate myself, what do you think? Yeah. I think that cheap fuel becomes expensive in the longterm, Yeah. One of the things that I've been learning as a teacher and also recently I feel like the way I'm showing up to the education and guidance with people and music is the, I would say the device of deeper self exploration, personally, I'm less interested in showing somebody how to play a C chord.
Versus helping people feel their hand from the inside out and understand their mind and like connect to themselves. So the music becomes a part of that development of inner inquiry and alignment tuning into harmony and what I've been learning. We all have different fuels, the and part of, I think one of the detriments of traditional musical education and probably educational at large.
Is, it seems like pressure has been one of the primary fuels that's embedded in the system. And I don't know I have a sense that most people learn better when they're in a, when their nervous system is relaxed, not tensed up. There are some that do seem to benefit, the David Goggins type of character, that like the freaks of the world, you know, and we seem to maybe use those freaks.
I use that in a positive way and endearing way as maybe a template of how we ought to be or how we're striving for, but the outliers might just be outliers. And what might serve the rest of us mortals is actually finding a path that's helpful for us. And I've personally found that a tense, nervous system.
Clogs the fuel pathways, even. So whatever fuel might be available at the emotional level, if we are in a locked up way place, it's not really gonna support our our progress or our ability to be in the moment with what we're doing, which music is a hundred percent depends on if we're not in the moment, it's not.
So you speaking to an audience of high performers, right? People who yeah. Enjoy learning people who like to see their life as an experimentation, they like to explore what's possible for themselves and also for their companies, for the community, for the planet and so forth. Yeah. So in that respect, perhaps, being very, have a really high standard.
Of themselves. It's very clean pipe. They can easily access those few of Hey, compare myself with, gosh, compare myself with CK, compare myself with why are you not there yet? It's you know that pipe to that type of fuel is very clean. It's very easily accessible for someone like you, because you had said the proclivity for you is to use that as well.
How are you able to self-regulate. Oh, this, I'm not, I'm choosing not to go down that route. I'm going to choose joy and relaxation instead. You know what? It became a necessity for me. Okay, go ahead. Yeah. I burned out at a certain point, like that, like any good hero's journey. The point of burnout happened where I had so much stress from that mental frame work.
I'm striving for excellence all the time. That quite literally every note I played had all of this pressure on it. So it robbed the joy of the experience. And it, the stress accumulated into physical burnout. had body issues, emotional burnout, mental burnout, just complete burnout. So I had to reframe my relationship with music from that standpoint.
And that's when I really began to explore using music as a means to create. Relaxation and centering within the self, which then made the experience a whole lot more enjoyable and also functional at that point. I suppose I'm not a person who likes some people are very exuberant in their life and they just, jump from one joy pod to the next joy pod.
And that's what, drives them. They're literally following their bliss for whatever reason I can't read quite isn't that way. And I seen function seems to be a very important part of what I'm doing. Like the understanding of it. Yeah. So when I was able to reframe and from the experiential level and necessity level of literally finding a way to use music, to put myself back together in a way that I actually enjoyed music again and enjoyed life, it helped me with my depression and anxiety and connected to something deeper inside.
So I guess speaking to the high performers, those who have the very clean pipes in the burning fuel. I, if the processes is enjoyable and it feels fulfilling at every step, then that's probably route that they're probably doing the thing that's right. For them. They're playing the right notes for their life.
If it feels so stressful or pressure full, that the striving is robbing the joy of the moment or the presence of the moment, then there's probably something to look at in that, and maybe find a way to. It's a reframe because it's if you, if your goal is a billion dollars and it takes you 90 years to get there, and you're so focused on that you've just spent those 90 years to reach that goal.
And then now here you are a decrepit human. Maybe at that point you could invest into some, That's S STEM cells from a teenager or something. The point is that our moments, our present moment, I think this is where the mindfulness part really comes into play is our true currency.
All we ever have is the present moment. We have had the past moments and that can be an asset to our present moment. Our past moments can be an investment. All those hours I've spent practicing is an investment into the capability to have access to music. And anything we're putting into is, can be an investment.
We could also spend time, but we can invest it. And the future is unknown. We don't know how much of that is there. So all we really have in any moment is the moment. So then the question is how much of the moment do we have and what is our experience of that? And if we are sacrificing, sometimes we have to do the pleasant things to get things done.
And that's just like part of the process when you're learning an instrument, it's not always going to be joyful or fulfilling, but the aspiration helps keep us through. But if it's always that. And there's never anything that, that comes from a deeper level of satisfaction is probably something worth evaluating at that point and checking in about, yeah, for sure.
I would also make it personal here. Yeah. The first time around is. Is is good. Hey, I got the results that I wanted, but after a few times of doing that, and then I saw a pattern, Oh, wow, this is a no win formula. Cause every time I do it, the more miserable the journey became. And then the more fleeting the joy of achievement became.
So I was like, forget it, but I want to actually bring into more concrete terms because the Metta framework where you just share is beautiful. So for someone who is experiencing. You said, Hey, to look into the journey and is it always miserable? So are there indicators that kind of, you can point to using your own experience as well as what are some of the baby steps in tactical ways that they can start to walk themselves, move himself from the cheap fuel to the more clean fuel.
Yeah, definitely there's indicators. So I think the analogy of, just as you can see my guitar here, but there's a guitar here just as a string, we tune these strings and those strings are tuned to a specific frequency that's objective in music. It's one of the places where it music actually has objectivity So if we use the analogy of literally our internal notes our string of let's say truth, our soul, our conscious con yeah.
Conscience intuition. When we are out of a lot of tuned from that there's indicators. And part of it is learning how to listen part in, it's very specific and even doing this with music, I think helps us listen to internally. Here's two notes that are in-tune together. If I detune this note a little bit here's attitude and out of tune, the notes are clashing against each other in tune.
Literally the wave patterns come into a level of summit symmetry that we hear and feel until we've developed an acuity to listening. Not everybody hears that. Just off the bat. Most, I think most people, unless they're truly have hearing issues can be led to the awareness of hearing that and feeling that.
And then they're like, Oh yeah, that doesn't feel so good. And then there's two directions of attitude there's flat and sharp. It feels a certain way
into feels a certain way. And sharp
just certain way
when things are flat, they're a little lower than where they ought to be. And perhaps we could look at that as an indicator in internally as depression basically, or a loss of motivation loss of something sharp would be anxiety, constriction, this type of thing. So I think one, it having a meditation or an internal practice that self guided, I think guided meditations are helpful, but at some point we need to learn how to do it ourselves internally so that we are literally making a contact into something inside of us with a more spacious mind, which gives us more acuity to listen to the internal notes.
Get a sense of, are we in tune? Are we out of tune? If we're out of tune, is it flat or sharp or sometimes both. Cause we're actually multiple notes. We have more than one string and listen to it and begin to find a level of learning, how to calibrate that. And so like actual steps if we are flat, obviously like we're, there's something that we're the processes is depleting us.
And obviously lifestyle choices, food drinks, things like that can diminish our energy. It things that we're ingesting into our brain, podcasts, YouTube things, TV news, certain things can bring us into different notes, basically. Great. And our work as well, our relationships at work, our relationship to the work.
So I suppose if it's if we're in a depressed state, we need to find a way to Perhaps reconnect to the the deeper purpose of what we're doing like that. That's just what coming to me in this moment. If we are in a constricted or, sharp place with it, obviously, if we need to find a way to create more expands, let me just do a quick recap.
So what you just said is. Start to pay attention and notice these, this internal resonance or dissonance, it'd be depressed state or anxiety state. And then, and then to start to basically unpack that more using a meditative practice of some kind of practice as a way to look at. Are to observe ourselves internally.
And then from that place of, then you can experiment with different say setting or peer group or music or diet or whatever the rituals may be. Then the, then you can start to take, find some fine tuning of of the dissonance or the resonance. Is that an accurate reflection? Yeah, I think so. Cool.
Beautiful. Any other practices that Josh or what your advise your students or the younger version of gosh? Yeah. I think that music practice when framed it as this way actually becomes a way to tune into feeling deeper and As a way to help stabilize the mind. That's part of it too.
It's a big part of it really, we've got this thing that does a lot of different things and thinks a lot of different thoughts and most of them are habitual and they're generally directed in certain ways. Oftentimes negative, I would say for many people and which I'm not just saying Be in a blissful rainbow and unicorn state, but I think negative is a thought pattern that assumes things are not possible, not likely.
Yeah. Things like that, basically in the realm of impossibility versus the realm of possibility around contraction versus the realm of expansion. Yeah. Said. Yeah. So I think a big part of tuning, is learning how to begin to stabilize the mind. And we don't learn this as a child or even as an adult.
And then when people do try to sit down to meditate, It's challenging. And oftentimes people say, Oh I'm not good at it. I'm not like even with music. It takes a practice. So I think, speaking to my younger self or future self even, or even current, and recognizing that really music is a function of music and a very valid one is a means to begin to stabilize them specifically our attention and begin to regulate it.
If that begins the set. Now we have an interior architecture that's stable that we really can begin to build something on. And I think, yeah, like at, like in addition, for my students, one of the beautiful feedback I've been really receiving is how much this is helping them feel calm using music as a meditation practice.
I think it's like, Reframing music from just a expression or creative pursuits that it really quite literally working with the notes. The sounds the rhythms, as a means of neural entrainment of seeking up our brainwaves with kinesthetic movement and auditory awareness as the bridge in between a deep medicine for life.
I want to echo on what you just said. And then the image comes to mind is the bumpers around a bowling alley as an example, right? Or transcendental meditation uses mantra as a way to car rail, their attention. Anytime you veer off from your LA land. Oh, you always save your mantra to go back to.
Yeah. So similarly, I really liked the fact that you use simple notes. And by the way, guys I took Josh's course tremendous master teacher through and through. And one thing I really love about his course was he didn't go fancy right away because most teachers would go into teaching the songs or chords and all these things.
And he does do that, but he taught us on a fundamental note level, single or node single stream. And then really feel into the note and from that place, then it grounds us emotionally, physically, right? So maybe you can say a little bit more about your philosophical point of view around why focusing on something that most issuers don't even teach, which is, how you sit, how you hold, how you breathe.
Huh. Played music. So why I focus on that? Or what have I, is that what you're asking me? Yeah. Maybe okay. There's a lot. We can go there. Maybe you can start off start off by talking about the fourth way. We'll go simple first
and then lean into the mechanics or you can do mechanics and then the philosophy, whichever you like John. Yeah. Okay. Fourth way it's the name of a system presented by a mystic of the 20th century named Gurdjieff. Who there's. The depth of it is way too much for a lifetime, probably, I'll, let's go with what's relevant to the process.
One of the things that Gurdjieff shared in was how we basically have different brain centers of our being. So not just the thinking brain, but that we also have a feeling or sensing brain emotional center. And moving center. So we can say thinking, feeling, and moving at a sort of three intelligences or awarenesses or attentions, we could think of those in that way.
One of the things that Gurdjieff said is what part of why life is so hard for most people is the centers are disorganized. They're not in harmony with each other. So we tend to think about things that we should be feeling or sensing. Or we are feeling a sense of something that we should be thinking about or we're moving when we ought not to be moving that the moving becomes a representation of thoughts or energy.
Think about nervous movements. For example, somebody who's, a Fiddler twitcher that's oftentimes actually thoughts, triggering physical movements and a waste of energy actually. So anyway, so Gurdjieff basically, out of many aspects of it, let's say it like this, these three things.
So like the thinking, the feeling or sensing and the moving as three primary intelligences that are disorganized, or we're not able to necessarily tune into most people or we're in one more than the other. So music and specifically one of the deep things that I continue to learn, but have learned from Robert Fripp and the guitar craft guitar circle work, which is not a direct lineage of the fourth way, but very much inspired while influenced and Robert's work with at the Sherburne house, which was.
Put together by one of our students, John G. Bennett and led by his wife after Bennett passed Elizabeth GRA. Robert studied with there, then the guitar circle, Qatar craft world incorporate some of these themes specifically are thinking, feeling and moving. So music like is a means of connecting all those three things to develop the sense of greater attention or presence in what we're doing.
If we think about it, our moving we music is a movement practice. It's necessitated by kinesthetic movements. I'll speak specifically more about a physical instrument voices that gets a little bit more intricacies there, but let's just say specifically on a guitar or ukulele, your hands need to move.
Now. Are we moving our hands from our hands? We're moving our hands from our thinking. Most people tend to learn how to do things from their thinking. Most people in a tire session are taught to look at things, looking at is very much connected to thoughts. And then, okay, move your finger there, move your finger there, move your finger there and play that.
And oftentimes that doesn't work for a really long time. So if we are going to ask our body to do something, we probably should be in our body. So we probably ought to be present in our body. If we are going to move it and allow the body to move from the body standpoint, one of the reasons most people struggle with chords besides they're difficult, their hands, they're not in their hands or strumming a continuous rhythm.
They're not in their hands, they're in their thoughts and it's not creating a flow. So basically getting present in the body listening. To the sound, which is connected to a feeling. Every note, when we really listen, it generates a feeling and not necessarily an emotional feeling, but more of a sensation that it's a better, it's actually a better way to say sensation in the body.
If we really listen and a note comes in, we could feel it inside of us. So there's our feeling and different note combinations create different sound fields is what I call them. Just as an example, Miner feels sadder or darker or major anything else we were hearing it, we're listening to it, but we actually sense the emotional quality of the sound or the colors of the sound through our feeling or emotional center.
And then our thinking, which oftentimes is really busy and disrupted needs to begin to hone in just like what you said with TM, with a mantra. Having a a process of operation that we're going to do. Let's say we're going to play a single note. So we are, in our hand, we are in our body.
We're present first because that's necessary, and then we play the note and then we listen as deep as possible when our attention is based on the listening. There's not much room for thought. It's just like a mantra. It's it? The, at that, in that context, it really is. And if we notice our thoughts going away.
We noticed that because we tuned out to the sound. So the sound keeps on bringing us back internally. And then what ends up happening is there's a calibration of the internalization of sound that is related to our process of externalizing sound. What would I say? Oftentimes when we're learning something and this goes way beyond music, we were very much in the doing.
There's an excitement in the beginning of your process. We just want to play, our hands are moving. We don't even know they're moving and that doesn't oftentimes yield harmony. But if we actually begin by receiving, then the note that we receive is going to create us to play another note, basically.
So we almost have to go and resistance to the, this impulse of doing it's the first being in a receptive state. So this process is basically, which is definitely influenced by the fourth way. And my own experiences is a way of beginning to calibrate our external attention and our internal attention and beginning to balance them.
That part of our attention is on the inside of our body. And part of it is external and the in case of sound, for example, and we in the process of playing a note becomes a biofeedback that we our body then begins to move in a way that we want the sound to sound. So if the sound is very sharp and disruptive, we begin to notice that and we say, okay, obviously I need to make a change in my body.
And then the body's intelligence begins to move forward. And then that creates a harmony of those three potentials that we talked about, the thinking, the feeling sensing and the moving. Yeah, I really appreciate what you just said. Cause as you're speaking and reflect on my own ukulele learning journey as well, and as someone who is like a life hacker, a student who loves to learn, my whole thing, my whole mind is wired to say faster is better.
So therefore when I learned that different course or the movement, my thought is. How do I get to be as fast as Josh or Jay kudo, so I'm trying to learn the pattern as quickly as possible and actually forgetting the physical sensations, each sound cord has an, a body. So then, and so it's a negative spiral because now I'm like, it's not getting me the result I'm looking for.
Let me go even faster. What you just shared actually did a whole reframe. It's actually more important for me to internalize the physical sensation. Each note, each core, me deepening that. And from that place of embodiment, then move on to the next note, the next movement. So on and so on. So definitely.
I'm glad you brought that up because. And we've spoken about this, you and I before I think, and also in the classes, but it's the misinterpretation of faster and sooner. And I think differentiating between those things, we generally want things sooner.
We want to be able to play something now soon. So there's this thing. If we do it fast enough, we'll get to that place sooner. Oftentimes the faster actually makes sooner later and slower makes sooner. Because we're saying the same more specifically about that. Yeah. Let's say you're wanting to, you build the car so they can drive a hundred miles an hour.
So you want to do that today. And so you put it all together and missing bolts, the wheels are not aligned. And the whole thing is, it's gnarly and he get in, he started driving and it's wobbling all over the place. And maybe you don't even get past 10 miles an hour until the wheels fall off, or you hit a tree or, but if you said, okay, in 10 weeks, I'm going to take time to really make sure everything is there.
Then perhaps you'll actually build this car that will get you to a hundred miles an hour. But if every day you keep on rebuilding the same clunky ass thing. It's that's the driving that you don't, you'll never really get there. And most people will give up because of that. A lot of it is working with slow cooking, and it's hard for people because our, we want things now. And who doesn't, who doesn't want to be a master in, right away. It's just that the and part of the reason why I worked so much with helping people find their internal tempo and beginning to slow it down internally, music is cause that actually develops a larger experience of the present moment.
Which there's more patients found in that there's less patients found in the contracted moments. And when our moment is so contracted, which we actually create by speeding up our brain and our nervous system, then we're inherently less patient. And we inherently tend to do the wrong things to actually get the thing or the less like the things that make it less likely to happen is about a reframe versus then really expanding out and.
It's if you had a well of water and you had to empty it, one drop at a time, it's a daunting task, but we know logically the only way to do it is just by doing it one drop at a time. No, there are just aren't any buckets there's, and you could spend a year devising a way of doing it faster, perhaps, Oh, if only we had this and this and that, but meanwhile, maybe the person who was just going one drop at a time actually gets the thing done.
So I don't know if that helps at all. Yeah. It really does. The only way to get better is by playing. And then there's no really shortcut, but so in my mind, I'm conflicted because I ask you and the a hundred percent agree with you in order to be better at any kind of craft, any kind of mastery, the path to mastery is practice.
Yes. However, so here's the howevers. Yeah. So then however, there are also knowing why, now as a master of your craft, of teaching of guitar, of a mysticism, there's also 80 20 principles, right? What is the 20 atomic unit skills want a mental skills to master, to make the path a little bit or a little bit easier?
Totally. So I would say I would agree that there are no shortcuts. There are definitely long cuts. So if we can mitigate the long cuts, then maybe we have something that approximates a shortcut, the 80 20 that th the is internal alignments. Really? So if you are trying to move your hands left and right, even, and you're not in your hands, they're not going to sync up because we're trying to use our head.
So quite literally. The internal alignment as the primary thing to learn then opens up the path in a much greater way because we're, our pipes are clean. They use the callback to the reference a clear mind or a focused mind, which is hard. So we use the practices to actually learn that thing.
If we are practicing eight hours a day, but the mind is distracting, distracted, or we're outside side of our capability. So we're just hitting this. Rather than, which oftentimes comes from, more of an ego striving then that's a lot of energy expended, just like another callback, cheap fuel becomes expensive in the longterm.
So basically investing in the development of internal awareness and alignment and connected to the sound auditory listening. All the things that, you know, like that I've been sharing. And especially in the courses where my one-on-one sessions ended up creating the inner architecture for music to come through, basically.
And yeah. And so it's basically it's how you're practicing even more than what I'm much, I'm amazing results. And it's really not to sound in modest cause I like, as I'm continuing to develop this way of teaching. I feel like a student as well. Like in, it feels like I'm on a path of discovery and it's not about me.
It's like discovering a process. I have some students who don't, who haven't practiced that much on a daily basis or weekly basis weeks will go by meet there's one in particular. And she'll be like, yeah, I I didn't actually touch my guitar this week. Now when I was 17 and teaching. I would have busted her balls about it.
Now my approach is okay, here we are new. Now it's not being a shame story around it. Let's not feel bad about what didn't happen in the past week. That's engaged right now. And breakthroughs lately, it's been mind blowing. It's just beginning to connect for her. And she stuck with it. So she played the long game.
She wasn't practicing hours a day or even daily, but by continuing to work on the inner attention and clearing all that like negative self response around it, it's happening and the music begins to take over. And then that's really the special gift. That's what I've learned is the music begins to teach you.
And when that happens, then it becomes exciting. Because then these things begin to open up and then you want to learn more that there's, that, like really positive feedback that you get from the experience of flow, and making sounds that sound good to you in, and having the accomplishment of breaking through some of those levels.
There's no shortcuts. There's definitely long cuts. If we're to break it into really simple, things concepts. And I'm still learning about all of this as well but internal alignments, which is ness necessitated on understanding attention. That's just necessary. If that's not there. If you have a clunky ass car and it's not, and that might be enough for some people, the drunk bar band and they're playing and we're having fun.
And Hey, like personally, I'm just interested in something a little deeper, look at it in a disparaging way, but attention and engagement, and they're connected with each other. If you just continue to engage with the process and continue to develop the internal awarenesses and the attention.
And work within a tempo that makes things functional rather than outside of the functionality. If you are trying to do something faster than you're able, you're hitting a wall and it just does not feel good. So if you continue to work with something that feels nurturing, if the music is even relaxing your nervous system at the same time and teaching you how to do it internally, then you're going to have a much more open space to engage with the process and over time, all of that alignment.
And investment time investment into accruing and give returns basically. And then it becomes compound interest at that point. Yeah, I, you said so many beautiful things to the principles of the guys. Definitely go back and listen to what Josh is trying to communicate. So do you want me to, I think, and what you just said is brilliant.
There's a lot of layer principles in there, but what actually reminds me is a beautiful quote. I came across recently by my spiritual teacher. He said the struggle is effort lace with negative emotion. Struggle is effort lays with negative emotion. And in what you're saying is removing the negative emotions, don't put yourself in a negative emotion state. Yeah. It actually has a much better efficiency. Yes. Yeah. Internationally without amplifying any negative emotions as you practice and learn, and then just, and that would empower you to to continue to do the work and have better throughput in the ed.
Yeah. Versus having that negative emotion struggling through it. And at the same time, internalize that doing the learning process. And then eventually the throughput has that negative emotions, all blended in there. So it's a much cleaner throughput when you just don't put yourself in a negative emotional state, is that an accurate reflection?
A hundred percent, and it's even deeper than at one level. When we're in a learning, when we're in a learning mindset, we're really becoming like a sponge. Something changes. I don't know what's happening at the neurological level, but but it's almost like the intention of learning opens up receptivity.
So if we are learning while stressed or learning, while feeling negative, we're learning that as well. And they're getting welded together internally. So it's almost like when we're in the learning state, it actually is. At the utmost important, not to have any stress or negative emotions because we're going to absorb those things more likely because we're in that like open, receptive state.
And conversely, if we are learning from that, if we're truly from our relaxed, nervous system, a positive mindset, open up the possibility as we're learning with every note, we're wiring that with the experience. So it's it begins to like really build upon itself at that point. Yeah. And brain the neuro network idea.
What you practice regularly essentially reinforces your neural network. Yes. Onset. So by having a positive relationship with, during the learning process, you're actually driving in, Hey, this is a joyful experience. I can do this. And yeah. And I'm getting better at it versus all my God. This is so hard.
Or I'm a terrible at this. I was so gifted with Josh. Like I'm not reinforcing that, right? Yeah. That's beautiful. Lots of different places we can go from here. We can geek out a little bit more on learning. Is there anything else around learning how to learn, put yourself in internal alignment?
Giving your best attention, and then engage with the process and then doing it regularly. And then that will have a compound effect of your learning experience. Anything else that you wanted to share around the learning process? Yeah. I'm sure there is. It's it's, my mind is going a couple of different places.
Like I'm flashing into yeah, you open a lot of different moves so we can go in different directions anywhere, your highest intention. W we'll take you. Yeah I think yeah, a couple of things learning. And this obviously is so obvious, but, it's a process and we w we'll say those words a lot, but I think when we're in the experience of learning, we forget that and we are trying to get from a to B, which oftentimes makes be further away rather than being in the learning.
Like just as a quick analogy and in recent classes that I've taught. I'll present something. And every week there's something a little bit stretching the capabilities a bit, gently. And somebody might pop in from the zoom and be my fingers, it's not working right now.
Like it, and they're responsibly. Oh. So after 10 seconds of trying, it's not working, there must be something wrong with their hands. There's oftentimes the assumption. If we don't get something right away, there's something wrong with us. Versus really getting into this idea of this is a, an act of discovery and it takes time.
And this might be a little bit redundant, but I think just really helping people to tune into that mindset as a foundation and continuing to remind oneself about that. Another thing that I've been learning about learning is how important compassion is, how important it is for somebody to hold space in a compassionate way for somebody.
Cause we oftentimes will go into a self degregation, there's something wrong with me. I can't do this, and then it brings up stories in somebody to really hold a compassionate and loving space and B hold, pull the hand gently. And Hey, like I use this analogy when I'm teaching, when a baby takes its first steps, it falls after a step or two or grabs onto the thing, the natural reaction from a loving parents.
Is celebration for the steps. Not what's wrong with you. You can't walk yet. How come you can't run? Oh, you fell. You must be bad at walking Sarah for falling. Pardon? So you assist your loser for falling in the learning process. And that closes off the openness where learning really happens. So mindset, like real, like compassionate mindset and helping people install that program in themselves.
And this is something I had to learn the hard way. That's been part of my long path to mitigate it from others. I practice with so much pressure and so much self beratement that it got the best of me. Obviously now I look at it as part of what I needed to learn, along my process, but I don't think everybody needs to learn that the hard way.
Yeah, I think there'd be a lot more joy and music, metaphorically and music, literally in the world. Yeah. We incorporated this in our learning, whatever the learning is. Yeah. So let's actually talk about teachers, the importance of having the right teacher. Cause you had briefly mentioned about a space of compassion.
I remember a time where I finally was curious enough about music and have the courage to actually starting to playing the drum or whatever. And I was. Being around someone who is technically very good, but she would just basically beat me up for not being mad. That basically Dallas, my enthusiasm and curiosity, and just even in any kind of positive emotions around music and I got, fuck it.
You do your thing. Thank you. I'm going to, so it wasn't until honestly, until I came across because I was looking for a teacher. And who actually not just have the technicality aspect of it, but also the mindset and also someone who can have that space of compassion and teach the mentality of that, the metacognition aspect of it.
Yeah. I like you. So I so appreciate the fact that you allow me to Hey, this isn't technical. It is, but it's not, let's start off with your fundamental relationship with sound. Yeah. And. Pay attention to how you hold it, how you breathe and all of that stuff. So thank you.
Anything else you want to say about finding the right teacher? What makes a great teacher? What makes a terrible teacher? Go ahead. Yeah. The easy questions I love it. And I just want to say I'm really enjoying this conversation, so thank you. Thank you for the invitation. What makes a great teacher?
Just some of the things that come to mind, obviously patients encouragement, people oftentimes Wolf's will comment on how patient I am in my sessions. I actually, when I began teaching like a lot, when I was 16, I was teaching about 40 people a week privately. One of the things I loved about it is I had all this patience and I was not a patient 16 year old boy, like most aren't, but a quick introduction yourself, warm patient, but you had infinite patience for your students. Yeah. Say a little bit more about that because, again, making it personal I'm as you probably experienced me already, not very patient by nature. So the dichotomy of the two. Yeah. Just as a reflection, I never incur, I never experienced your inpatient.
I experienced you enthusiastic about accumulating what you're doing, which I think is a different experience, it was remarkable. On reflection. I didn't understand that at the time I knew it just felt good. I knew it felt good that I entered this practice room with somebody.
And not to say I was saying to her perfect person at the time I had, but there was this patients that became available. There's like super power and it felt good for me, to be in that state. And it's something that I guess, encouraged me to teach more.
So I think patience is a really important thing and I think. Patients happens naturally. It's not something that I have to try to do with somebody. I like when we're learning. It's the natural outcome of compassion. I feel I, when I'm in a lesson with somebody I want them to do well. I don't have an expectation of them doing well, per se, right away or learning the thing.
Oftentimes people will apologize when they can make a mistake. And I bring that up Like, why are you apologizing to me? Like you're not letting me down like we're in the process of learning. So I think compassion, patience is the outcome of compassion. And and also the regulated nervous States, the nervous system.
If my nervous system is off. If I drank a cups of coffee and a couple of Adderall, my moments then become so compressed that chances are it because my tempo has changed. Patient is directly connected to the tempo. The more spacious I am, the more I have space to hold. So what makes a great teacher?
I think compassion and then the natural Aqua patients. Acuity to figure out what that person needs in that moment. I do. I don't think there's a systematic approach for everybody. I think there's principles that we can use, but we all need different medicine and different things. So I think having the ability to assess, Oh, almost like a psychotherapist in a way of what, where our blind spots and how to offer the things that help the person do that.
I've been learning a lot, giving them space to learn and experience. So what makes a great teacher that as well, like leading the students to an experience, but not giving it to them, teaching like guiding them to discover it for themselves. Sure. I can tell you where all those notes are, but I want you to find them.
And if you make a mistake, I might not tell you right away to see if you recognize it yourself. Now, if you made that mistake two or three times, then maybe it's time to bring it to your attention, but I'd rather have you recognize it on your behalf. Cause that's how development truly becomes. So I think leading and guiding the student to inexperience obviously positive support, and is super important.
And I think not everybody is meant to teach also. I think everybody could probably develop their teaching ability. And maybe that's segwaying into what makes a not great teacher. And in a sense would probably be the opposite of all those types of things. I, interesting moment, I think that's happening with our culture and it's something I saw some years ago that would, that.
That I saw as a trend and now it's beginning to happen, which is so many people are out there teaching things, especially in the entrepreneurial space and the coaching world, and all of a sudden everybody's a teacher, these Facebook posts, that someone people make it's it feels preachy, teachy like coachee type of, type of thing.
And a lot of it feels. It feels pretty cookie cutter and just re replicas of a thing, that other people have done. I think there's, and I feel passionate about that if we all have something to offer each other and I think teaching. Whether it's at a financial level or just an exchange of giving a positive benefit to humanity is one of the most beautiful things.
If not the most beautiful thing that there is, because if you could help somebody learn something, especially something that's relevant and useful, you're empowering them to such a degree. It changes lives, depending on what they're learning, really. So many people are taking a teaching position, but I don't know if.
If it's always coming from a higher mission, or if that it's almost like teaching becomes a means to an end for them. I've said I'm seeing this a lot in the coaching world. Like so many coaching programs that I'm seeing. And in the testimonials, I made this much money in a month. I acquired 12 clients in a month and it seems like all these programs are, many of them are about acquiring clients or money.
And not what are you really? Are you truly serving people though? Are you in check with yourself with your patients, with their compassion, with your true motivations and to really be in a supportive role? Basically, I think a really great teacher as a guide that I've been somewhere.
And here, I'm going to show you how to get there, but you may need to get there in a way different way than I got there. So I'm going to be attuned to what you need in that path. Like I had a teacher in college who was a real hard ass and I sought him out. He was a ball Buster and I wanted that.
And also at the same, you were busting session with you, for sure. Because my aspiration we're very high level and I wanted somebody who was just going to really go in and find those things, for me, music at that time served a different function than it, than what I'm offering right now for people, like I was, it was my life depended on it.
So I was looking to. Be as amazing as possible. And yeah, and sometimes his ball busting helped and sometimes it didn't, quite honestly, and I had enough in like self esteem where it, I always understood it as something that was supportive. But I sought it out. I think that's the most important thing.
And I'll say this when I graduated from college and I began teaching college, literally right after I graduated. I took on that ball busting approach for a number of students and it didn't work out well. And it was at the time, pardon it, wasn't what they needed that they needed.
And I was approaching them in a, with a way that I just thought was, this is how you learn, and this is what you need. And Oh you need to learn all this shit in a week. And if you don't, then I'm going to, bust your ass about it. And I actually, I had a, I was showing some. Let's do some more difficult chord voicings that take a certain level of dexterity and the hand developed this is at the college level.
And just these different like really more elaborate fingers. And his hand got a little hurt. I D not severely, but I think he was stretching too hard. And when another teacher told me that he was like, yeah, you kind of his hands and it was this teacher, somebody who I really respected actually a mentor of mine.
It was basically saying, Hey dude, I think you're going about this a little bit intense show out. Yeah. That was a moment of humility for me and checking my own thing of Oh, okay. Like I need to be more in tune. With the process. So I think what, I don't know how much it makes a bad teacher.
Okay. I'll give one example of a bad teacher. I've had, I think I could look at one in particular. Hold on. Before you go to the bad teacher part, let me do a recap of what you said. Sure. So that would give you a little break as well as for people who are listening, the quality, the attributes of a good teacher.
Okay. So what you said Desire for them to do well. Yeah. At the same time don't expect them to do well. Very different. I expect them to make instant progress, like yes. Have that burden of Hey, you should blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Intention for them to do well, but don't have the expectation per se.
Yeah. And then Self regulate your nervous system. So that way you come a calm play space versus having, 10 Adderalls and, speed up your internal clock. Have enough acuity sensibility. To meet them where they're at, know what they need and then form your tool belt and give it to them what they need.
They may need a little bit of a tough love. They may need some encouragement, right? So depending on what they need, give them that Oh, nudge them, but don't give them what they need. Don't necessarily point out and just listen for. Hey, if there's a pattern, then you give it to them, but not right away, give them exactly what they need at the time.
And also giving them lots of positive support per se. Yeah. So some follow up question there before you go to the bath teacher, some people believe, especially the high-performance listening, a positive support. It makes people soft. And I'm just saying, this is not my point of view, one person particularly comes to mind, no positive support.
What's your take on that? If that's what that person needs, then that's what that, if that what makes them function and feel good then? Sure. I would say the majority do really well with positive support. Okay, cool. I agree. A hundred percent. It's one of those, there's what people may or may not need at the time yeah.
All right. Beautiful. Let's move to the, not so good teachers, the bad teachers, the terrible teachers. That's you still remember, even today it made an impression on you. What are some of the qualities and the attributes that you remember? Yeah, and really, thankfully I could only think of. I can only think of one that really stands out, like I, I, if I racked my brain, I could probably think of a handful of mediocre teachers, but I really do feel blessed that I've had good teachers along the way, yeah, one teacher.
So I'm in college and. She's hot, a voice class for instrumentalists, and this is at Berkeley in Boston. So basically this class was as it sounds, it was a vocal class for people who are not singers, and she had, it was just not a very happy person. Okay. I've had other teachers who aren't happy, and myself included.
But I think there's sometimes The unhappiness can come out. And I think for her, part of it was the unhappy, this is my own projection or sense of it. She wasn't happy with her position in life or in the class. I'll say this. If you're teaching a voice class for four instrumentalists, you're not one of the top voice teachers at this school.
Cool. I like it. You probably should have vocals teacher at the school teach that class. That would actually make the most sense in the way of the bureaucracy of the school or that, that I went to the top, teachers taught the top students. Yeah. And as a guitar teacher, I was blessed enough to study with the TAC teachers.
So I had that experience of really working with the higher echelon teachers. So anyway, so I'm in this class. And yeah, she criticized other singers called sting stink, for example. And to me that it just like pretty much even all I needed to say was why, like why not recognize greatness rather than put down, that's a mention.
Pure teaching of voice class for instrumentalists out of college. And you're putting down somebody who's a world-class artist, it's maybe you should check that. Yeah, actually it's a, it's more of a reflection on her bitterness a hundred percent. Although all of it was reflection on her.
She said, she told me specifically, I think she even said, if I don't think I made this up and she's I like you Josh. And sometimes I really hate you. And cause I challenged her in class. I challenged, her and she didn't like it. She told me this probably makes her a great teacher, but in like in a inverse type of way yeah, she told me, cause I, I had a lower singing voice and now I'll say this to her benefit.
She was right to help to encourage me to develop a higher, my higher register. I would agree with that. Now at that time I was more into stylized music. I wasn't like so in my lower voice, I wasn't, the Tom waits, Frank Zappo like singers who had lower voices, Leonard Cohen. And she told me something of the fact that almost verbatim, this is some years back, but basically It's God, let me see if I can remember it exactly.
Something about like you need to do what's right. And what's right. Is what most people like. Interesting. Okay. In my, thankfully I was, like wise enough at that age to be like, Oh wow. This person knows nothing about what people like. Cause, first of all, like all of the artists that I loved were not mainstream, so I suppose in this, in particular case, her own blind spot blots her own blind spots leading the way she taught.
Ma is making her a bad teacher. So I suppose and thankfully I don't have that much reference to what bad teachers are, but I think if blind spots are leading, if there's an insensitivity to the student, if there's if there's degregation, if there's, not and oftentimes that's come from their own egoic blind spots.
It's making a bad teacher, and I don't know how much more of this. It's probably better just to focus on what makes a good one, but, yeah. Yeah. One thing. So number one, I really so appreciate embodying a great teacher, and that's why I chose you as my ukulele teacher. It's something that I don't ever foresee myself doing it professionally.
It's more of an exploration of. This awareness that you spoke of this embodiment that you spoke of this this relationship with sound that you spoke off. So to thank you very much in that, I'm pretty sure. Sure. Yeah. So let's actually talk a little bit more around. Let's see. There's a lot of different things.
I want to actually ask you one, one specific thing. This may be a segue to more of an overarching philosophy. You had talked publicly about how you Your journey of deepening your own craft as a musician with I ayahuasca as an example. So we'll touch on just a learning aspect of it.
And then before going to more ceremonial and all this symbolism that goes with that. So talk about how using Iowasca as a way to help deepening. Your relationship with sound with your instrument just a bit before we segue to another topic. Yeah, for sure. And yeah. So for those who don't, aren't aware of what it is, right?
It's a shamanistic T that it comes from the Amazon jungle, that's a blend of DMT, basically, which is a molecule that is w. Is inside of our body. And I don't know if it's scientifically proven, but there is suspicion to say that it's released when we dream and when we die and when we're born. So it's a psychedelic experience that comes from plants and is gaining a lot of both anecdotal and scientific proof evidence of being very medicinal for certain people at certain times in their life.
And They found that it can heal or at least assist in diminishing depression, trauma addiction. Just a different, to educate for a moment to differentiate it from a drug, that has a certain connotation. It is a healing plant, or at least it can be, everything can also have its negative affects as well.
And it came into my life specifically to I guess I incorporated in my life to help work with my own personal depression and and that moved also into playing music for ayahuasca ceremonies And music is in sound is a very much a big part of the ceremony. So for those who might not have had any psychedelic experience one of the things about psychedelics is his senses can seem to open basically.
So colors can be more, can be experienced. Brighter sounds. Deeper more acute touch feeling. It can increase that, which can be a lot for people, which I think is also why why I don't have a sort of a blanket. Yes, go do you know, Iowasca eat mushrooms or all these types of things because it's not for everybody.
And it's definitely something that, whatever about that. Before we move on one quick. So would you talk about,ayahuasca on thispodcast. Okay. Thank you for that education and a little primer. The way I share that on the podcast is think of it as a catalyst. It actually amplifies where you already are.
So imagining the fuel tank, the fuel that you have, you're in different fuel tanks actually amplify it even more. If you in tend to use anger or resentment, that gets amplified during the experience as well. For the people who may not have a stable fuel tanks, This is not for them.
But for those who are pretty fit physically, emotionally, spiritually, and mentally, and this is something that, it's a great experience catalytic experience to go through. So yeah, it can be for some, even people who are stabilized, they might be good in this stability and they might not need to like, but yes yeah.
Yeah, so my experience of it with sound and music and there's something about that plant in particular and the experience of being with it that sure seems connected to sound and in music and my personal experience that helped me help you hear sound better in a way in and hear it in a deeper way.
And In playing for ceremonies or during ceremonies? It's a beautiful challenge cause I'm also in that time I'm also drinking the medicine. So I'm under the experience I'm with the experience, which can make certain things more difficult. So there was this internal challenge of perhaps like walking on a tight rope, over a mountain, and and that it made it a little bit more difficult, but that difficulty also helped me stay focused and centered in a way that actually worked out an internal muscle.
And and then at some point it just becomes a line. So it was a really beautiful experience. One to use music as a means of service in that role to play for play certain sounds and songs that I felt people needed in that room to support their journey for many people, the experience can be very intense.
Yeah, I know you've talked about it before, but if somebody isn't familiar with it, most of the, they assume they S they say, Oh, is that the thing that you throw up on? Yeah. And some people do, many do and it can be uncomfortable in the body and it can, you can encounter difficult things. So using music as a means to nurture and move energy.
Those experiences taught me. Deeper how that works. How, what, how different notes and scales and things interact with the moments that I feel like I began that exploration playing music for yoga classes. And then in the more, a ritual ceremonial standpoint with specifically with Iowasca, it elucidated that deeper in a way.
So there is both my internal connection to sound and finding the channel and basically. Beautiful thing. I learned a lot. I learned when I played a song in a ceremony that I felt like, Oh, I want to play this now, from more of the doing, oftentimes it just wouldn't feel right for the room when I learned to listen to, and just get a sense of what came through magic oftentimes happen.
And so I think it's hot. It taught me how to listen deeper to what really feels I was like, what is the music of the moment versus what do I want to play? And a lot of expression to that. It also helped me come into deeper connection with my voice. And as a singer, did you sing in ceremony while you play?
Wow. Yes. Yeah. And there's something, again, that, in my own experience about that specific medicine like difficulty singing them in my life. It's actually been a pain point in my musical existence. Yeah. I could hear my voice and feel it better than normal. And that allowed me to be in more acuity with pitch and control it.
And the best that I could say, I would love to know what happens at the neurological level, that what it's catalyzing, but it sure seems to enhance an internal connection to sound awareness that feels aligned. And perhaps just a couple of my own sense. Especially with studying Dr. , which gets into a whole nother podcast properly.
But one of the things they he developed something called the much method, which was a way to train the ear in quite literally the muscles within the ear to hear certain frequencies. He recognized that people who have certain things difficulty hearing or singing that it actually is an inner ear muscle that hasn't been developed.
And. Oh, as well as that, they're not listening in a ear dominant way because yeah, it's a whole, it's a whole you just blew my mind. I didn't know. That was possible until you just mentioned it. It's really profound work. And it's actually something that I feel has been under utilized in society.
Oh. If we didn't know people needed glasses or di or glasses existed, that there's actually like a mechanism within the ear and that the ear needs to learn how to listen. And part of it is these muscles. And also part of it is being right ear dominant that oftentimes people who have pitch recognition difficulty, it can have this inner ear muscle is not quite developed as well as not a defined radio dominant listening ear.
And one of the things I, that in my own personal experience with Aja, I would really feel both hemispheres in my brain zero in, into a central point in which is where I experienced the sound and the voice. And when I was aligned in the tune with that, it sure felt a whole lot easier to sing.
And so it put me in touch with, I think, a deeper internal experience of Sound and music would be the shortest answer. So let me just make a con make a common, then I'll drill in more on the specific sounds. I don't have the research to back it up right now. I'll do my best to find in the show notes that our default network gets turned down.
Oh, it gets turned down. So that allows us to have more. A cleaner pipe, shall we say the filters turn off? So that way, we can experience things more, experience our internal States and emotions, our thoughts, and that's also a possible possibly why we experienced synesthesia more, doing ceremony, ceremonies like that as well.
Yeah. Yeah. So on the learning part of it. So we experienced this well, number one, let me just make a comment, please. So impressed that the musicians they can do really intricate movements and with their voice is there in ceremony is imagined for those of you who haven't experienced, something like this.
Imagine you just had a really difficult workout, right? That level of internal intensity, you're out of breath. You're trying to like, hold yourself together like that into the internal intensity. So now imagine now somebody gives you a guitar to, or ask you to sing in with that intensity in my that's in my mind, what I envisioned to be a ceremonial instrumentalists, while you're on the medicine, is that an accurate, par analogy?
Yeah, something like that. I think in necessitates, a development of internal management. Yeah, energy and all that. And even maybe how to channel that with it. W I there's a, I didn't have the level of technical acuity already developed. I think it would be much more difficult. Yeah. I do have the benefit of coming in with, X amount of years of development in the hands.
So even it might make it a little bit more challenging than a certain degree. But I can trust my hands to get there basically. So I'm not having to figure things out while I'm doing it. Just someone like me who was a beginner, ukulele player, really? There's no way I'm playing their ukulele.
I would disagree. Oh, interesting. Had you. And I had a couple of sessions of okay, like here's what you're going to be playing music in a ceremony. And we had a couple of sessions specifically directed towards that. I would orient you on what you could do and how to do it. And I bet it would be beautiful.
Okay. Hey, challenge accepted, dude. That's awesome. I love that three notes. I would love that. Yeah. Let's let's talk offline about that for sure. So bringing back to the whole idea of deepening your relationship with sound with kind of like Iowasca, so you said it opens up your receptivity. And as well as, left brain, brain hemisphere, integration to allow you to get into the notes even more. Yeah. How does that accelerate the learning process with your relationship, with the sounds with the instruments at all? If any me personally, or like in a more general way you personally.
I think it accelerated in a way of further refining my understanding of attention and how to work with it. Becoming more aware of when the mind is drifting into other things and how to continually stay in that meditative centered, attentive way in the line way.
Yeah, that's I think that's the primary thing. Okay. So it doesn't necessarily a salary or the salary is basically gives you more of a stressful internal, stressful situation for you to basically hold your ground more under stress while I perform in a high level. Is that it? Yeah, that's one aspect.
And I think having, like also just having the reflection in and maybe we're saying the same things from a different angle, perhaps, but like having the. The observation at least in my experience with AI, there's a, another level of the observer consciousness that I feel connected with so that I can understand the processes of that I'm doing in a different.
In a more, in a different way. And then basically begin to work with that, I'm not a golfer, but if you're once a golf pro and they look at your swing and they help you basically make the adjustments, or you watch yourself on video to make that adjustment something of an internal awareness of that, like a little bit more aware of what is happening under the hood, basically.
Yeah. Yeah. One analogy that I also share on this podcast a lot is, in the beginning, before I had my personal experience, I thought this catalyst, like I want SCA would be an escape from reality. Huh. And then happened, had many ceremonies afterwards. I realize this is actually for me to get into hyper reality.
It lifts the veil for me to, as you said, look under the hood of what's actually happening in reality in my mind, in my body, in my heart. And then also the external reality as well. That's the way I articulate it. How would you define hyper-reality? Just basically lift the veil, remove the illusions that I have and then just actually see things as they are, and then see things from different perspectives versus, having more of a filter and trying to CERN, so here's a question with that because I do think this is, and I'm not saying this with you in particular, but a potential shadow side of medicine work.
How do we know we're in a hyper-reality and not just another filter that. We are perceiving it as a hyper-reality sort of this inception like, experience that, Oh, like now we're awake because I do think one of the, that I've actually seen a negative consequence of in particular Iowasca people can get into a belief pattern that might be out of touch with reality, whatever reality it might even be.
I think, you know that it's, I think it's like what's the subjective and objective reality. Yeah. Yeah, that's a question of like how do you personally discern what is a hyper-reality or not just another filter? Totally. A great question. I love that you asked that question and Let's see the best I can enter.
Oh, answer it. So let's first of all, look at objective reality versus subject reality, right? Murray history another beautiful musician. He is the founder of my travel. He was one of the guests as well. So he, his whole thing is it's consensus reality versus subjective reality. An experience of one versus, there's some consensus about what is it that we're looking at.
And your question was, how do I know if is hyper-reality versus just another filter that my mind makes up? I think ultimately it comes down to, I think that question. To me is ultimately not that relevant. Ultimately for me, it's a question of narrative, right? Do I have a narrative that empowers me to live the life that I want to live it?
In other words, am I, when I have this narrative, do I feel contracted or do I expand it? If I have this narrative, then I feel expanded. And that to me is a new reality that actually empowers me ultimately, that's what I care about. So what are the act rather than, asking the validity of, this lens?
Does that make sense? Can you give it back to me? Yeah. No, that does make sense before I give it back to you. I think you are a A special circumstance because you are in touch and connected like you're like there's a steady foundation within you. That is steady. And what about the, let's say person who might lean towards a more psychotic or schizophrenia break where their new reality feels very empowering and expansive.
But it is, has a negative consequences on their life or other people's lives. Like they might buy into it such a degree that they could actually cause harm. What would just, how would you say like for another person who might not be so assured of themselves out of potentially different differentiate that?
Yeah. So now we're coming to the question of sovereignty, right? Sovereignty, right? I think ultimately. This is my personal belief that people choose to live the life that they want to live. And if they live the life that they want to live in a way that actually empowers them, then who am I to say, Hey, that's not the right way to live.
Sure. So that's the way I, so ultimately for them, it's more of a self-determine. Of is it actually empowering me or does it, is it disempowering me? So if I recognize, Hey, my mind is really fragile. In a psychosis state, then perhaps it's out of my own volition to not even touch, a powerful catalyst, like an Iowasca or whatever, or breath work, or even, have a pasta or things like that.
Yeah. Do you remember when the, this is some years back, like when there was. That transformational, the coach, the person who led that sweat lodge and a couple of people died. It was like warrior training. Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah. This is probably back. Yeah. In 2009 ish, but here was a character like who was doing transformational work and I'm sure it felt very empowered and doing it and encourage people to stay in a environment that ultimately killed a number of people actually.
It's and I don't, I'm not asking you this question, but I guess this is just something that like, has been rattling in my brain for a bit, in more extreme versions of transformational work, such as medicine work such as, like hard, like harder push to the limit, whether that's physical, mental, emotional, again, running the deserts, he did it for himself, he also has those like ultra marathon type things where there's a lot of physical risk, right? Yes. But I guess what I'm saying is I'm looking at more facil, like people who basically do something feel empowered as a facilitator perhaps, and that empowerment might be not fully cooked and potentially have negative consequences on another person.
I actually don't see the difference between, let's say a desert ultra marathon versus cause in that there's still a container or someone who is only how responsible there's a design for that. And then the person who participates in it, I'm sure one is a little bit more intimate. One is more bigger, greater environment.
Ultimately, yeah, I excellent question. Certainly. I'm not sure we can come up with the answer and I don't know our cast conversations right now, who ultimately. Is responsible, I think both, there's the sovereign self making a powerful choice. And then also the event producer who do everything that they can to articulate possible risk.
And, here's the preparation that dah, and ultimately knowing that there is a waiver, you come in knowing that there's a risk of sorts mentally, physically. Yeah. I think we could probably move into another thing, but what I'm talking about is how like, Is bringing up a shadow side that can create confusion and people that they think is real and they follow that confusion and it actually makes their life worse and can potentially impact other people, like just and I'm not saying this is you by any means.
In fact, I would say you're the opposite of that, but just I think it is a conversation that needs to be addressed in a way. When we begin to talk about things that do change our perception of reality, whatever reality might be, there is a risk of people be confusing, that confusing empowerment with another belief pattern, which if that, like I've seen it hinder people's lives, I've seen people take on a leadership role from a confused place.
And now the leadership role in their belief messing up other people's lives under it, basically. So it's and I don't think there's an answer we're trying to get to, but just th there, I think I've had to do with myself. If we bring it back to our conversation, be very, like I had to be very clear and discerning and continue to question.
Am I having, what I would say is an objective experience of subjective experience, I think, and I think music is a great teacher for what will we'll segue back that two notes that are in tune. There's an objective reality to it. Not everybody hears that. Not everybody hears out of tune. So there is a sort of gap in there awareness that can be tuned.
To begin to perceive of what is objective and what is subjective in doing. So I think we'd reveals how much of almost everything we're doing is subjective and observing that then actually can create a, another form of transformation. I would say that music itself outside of medicine is a very safe and contained way to find that.
I agree a hundred percent and I really appreciate this discussion. It's something certainly that I wish I have a more, here's the framework step by step. I very crispy answer, but I think that kind of misses the point. Cause the whole point of this podcast conversation is an inquiry of not only within the boundary of a mastery, but also at the F at the brink and perhaps like what does that mean?
What does it look like? As space holders. As master teachers, how do we actually ensure that people choose, empower state? Yes. This actually helps them support them towards the life they want to create rather than takes away and Rob them from their own sovereignty. Yes. So to your point, bring back to music about, and so there was a question here about, are there.
Specific note or no combinations that actually would predictably get people to certain emotional state. Can you maybe talk about that or demonstrate that a bit? So that way people can have an idea of, now that you have a really deep understanding of notes and music and sound. Yeah. You mean some examples?
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question. So I think, one way to begin to orient around it is thinking about music that appears in film. If anybody's had the opportunity to watch a film or at least a part of a film that was stripped of the musical soundtrack, especially in a, like an intense scene, a chase scene or a really dramatic scene, You'll notice something.
It doesn't feel, it feels awkward. It doesn't feel right. A big part of what music doesn't film. In fact, I always say the thing it does is actually helps resonating and create emotional responses to the experience heightened and almost like triggers the emotional response to meet the acting.
And it can, it all blends together in a certain way. So we can understand that. Certain aspects of music have an effect on our internal experience and what we're feeling. It might, it spans right way beyond just the emotional, but it's something even deeper. In fact I was part of this talk a couple of days ago that said, yeah, we could say that creates emotion in the body of, we experience it as emotion, but really it's just, it is what it is.
And that's part of what makes music so beautiful. So we could begin to use words to certain sounds to approximate what it's doing within us, but it never really quite gets there. The what does get there is the pure direct experience of it. But having said that, understanding with words and beginning to organize a does help us attuned to this.
So what I will say is that in music how many different notes are there? Do you know the answer CK, or would you guess in the whole universe of music? Dude.
Yeah. I mean that, it's actually an informed guess and we could even say yes that is in our Western musical world, we have 12 distinct notes. Another way we could even look at notes is a frequency. So we could say this is a four 40, we've heard that we probably heard 84 32 and all this stuff that goes with that.
But basically what that means is this note here is vibrating. The string in this case is vibrating at 440 times. Exactly per second. So it's an objective thing. And So there's 12 distinct notes that we categorize and then there's octave of those notes. So that would be this note, which we call an a, which is right now, vibrating at 440 times a second.
This is another eight, but now vibrating at half of that at 220 a second. This is vibrating at 110. If we went down the other active, which the guitar doesn't have it be 55. If we went down another one between 7.5, 13.75. And so on until we re you know, just kept on reducing basically to infinity and conversely doubling it.
So four 48 80, the next one would be 16, 16, or 1760. Yeah. And so on. So it's interesting because there's. An infinite amount of replications of this note, quite literally a fractal realization of frequency with 12 distinct resonant notes. One might say what about here's one note, here's another notes.
How many notes are in those now on a piano? The answer is technically zero, but conceptually infinite. So between this note and this note,
all these little micro notes that are quite literally if you're measuring a space of a foot, you could divide that into 12 inches. But in between every point you could divide quite literally into an infinite, although we don't perceive evolve that level of acuity. So the short answer is there's an infinite amount of frequencies, but we organize them in our Western world into 12 individual notes.
Every one of those 12 individual notes inherently, and one might argue this, that they have a maybe perfect pitch, but individual notes. There's not so much of an emotional quality relationship too. So if I play this note or if I play this note
individually, this frequency or this frequency. Doesn't really call too much of an experience individually when we combine the notes though. So let's just say this note and let's say this note,
not together now. There's something that we can begin to qualify internally. And we can use a binary, basically that ends up being a gradient of a binary but harmonious or stable to dissident or are unstable. So we would, if we were to qualify these two notes, we could say those are very stable.
They work really well together. In contrast, if I moved one of those notes, I guess you can't see my fingers, but here we would call that dissonance unstable. So that's just like a good compare and contrast. So the emotional response of the internal response is primarily based with stability or instability immigrating in between those and all the little flavors that exist between that.
It depends on how deeply we want to go with like how this is I'll just give the brief version of it when we're hearing sound. It's the vibrations of the strings are creating wavelengths in the molecules that are replica or a continuation, even of the string vibrating that's meeting our skin, our ears, the silly other hairs in the ears, vibrating those in the same wave pattern, which is then goes into the liquid in our ears, which then goes into electronical signal all still vibrating at the same pattern.
In our nervous system and God knows what else, neural networks, and all the types of things. So the point of that is right notes, vibrating together, create a shape. And some shapes are more symmetrical, which we experienced is balanced in. Some shapes are more symmetrical, which we experience as dissonance.
And our internal vibrations or nervous system response or neural networks are vibrating in that same relationship. So basically it's an analog or a continuation of that. So we're literally feeling these vibrations, which changes our internal States. If we are hearing or listening notes or combinations such as this, then music, will we call this a perfect fifth?
We don't need to get into the technicalities, but we could call that perfect. But this is a very stable relationship. There's two stable relationships. Primarily let's say the Okta, which is the doubling of the notes, which is basically just a fractal, a replica. And then the first one that's differentiated.
It would be this perfect fit, which is very stable. So in listening to these notes together, it is beginning to stabilize our internal sense because literally that vibrational pattern is we're eating in a way where, you know, and adversely, if we partake in this, and it's enough, it's destabilized these stabilizing our system.
So different note relationships have that effect on us. The ability we're able to be really present with it is how we can feel a deeper. So let's say like the person who's not necessarily very musically attuned, maybe they hear it, they like it, but there's even people that can yeah, I can give or take music.
Chances are, they're not really experiencing what this is doing. They're hearing it. But then not really experiencing it versus the trained musician. Let's say learns to hear and feel this so deeply that they have such a connection to it that they're inside. And I think like when we see musicians and we get intoxicated by it, part of it, I think is how deep they are internally.
They're going somewhere and they're expressing. But they're not externally oriented. They're so deep inside. And what I found personally is where they are inside or where we are, is in the experience of these notes, which has so much to tell us the deeper that we listened to it. So basically different, no combinations have that effect on us.
And part of what I would say is like painting with sound as a musician or, helping create a different emotional internal atmosphere. Is playing around with those colors in a way that that aligns us to some of those notes. I call this tuning into harmony and we could even just metaphorically say oftentimes, maybe a lot of us, especially if we're.
Eating a lot of dissonant things, whether that's food or news or, whatever it is begin to get tuned that life seems like the music of their life feels like this,
or it feels, maybe really sharp, like very fast. And I just had a nervous reaction. See me in these towns. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's doing. It's literally stimulating your nervous system in response. So quite literally using sound the notes that help us tune into harmony and the balance at a tempo that helps our nervous system reset.
Relax is faster. Tempos are more heightened alert sense. Like a panic attack is a very fast internal tempo. If a tiger, all of a sudden interest is room, chances are our nervous system will be like, okay, let's chill. So there's a utility to a very fast heightened, nervous system.
Very it's very expensive energetically. And so basically beginning to work at slower tempos helps reset the brainwaves and the nervous system. To a place of homeostasis and re and relaxation, which kind of tells our whole system. It's Oh, it's okay. K right now versus, which has, it's not okay right now.
Now there are faster, more descended music that people love because they might love that feeling of being on edge. And I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with it. I would look at it from a bit of a medical standpoint. And say, is that really serving anybody want to use different types of music and different sound flavors and tempos in different parts of the day to serve what's necessary at that point?
Yeah. You were wanting to get in a productive mode really long tones might not. So organize your brainwaves to go into more action. It's why people take Adderall because it actually speeds up the brainwaves. So you might want to find certain tempos that are still healthy,
that begin to regulate things, but also move them forward a little bit, rather than just like tuning into this like floaty long moment. So a few ideas came to mind as a technologist. I love to just have a library or, the tool belt of the tool set that can just point and listen to it over and over again.
But I don't actually know there's any kind of library other than playing my own instrument. And someone who's a beginner, we don't understand any of this, I can duplicate basically what you just demonstrated are there. Musical libraries basically say, Hey, if you want to feel stable, play this list, if you want to feel, doesn't it.
Yeah. Yeah. There are, there's been some different technological programs that have organized music in that way. I bet you could even find it on Spotify, different playlists. There's also I don't remember the exact name of it, but it's something like, it's the name itself? Let me see if I can look it up real quick.
It, unfortunately, so Y you look, let me say this. You have one that I've found are. Complicated musics cause complication, people the mind likes lots of different flavors, but what I'm looking for personally is two no's three, no's the simplicity, yeah. What you described, why you demonstrate it, not the complicated piece, piano music, all over the place type stuff.
Yeah. Offhand, I'm not sure. Okay. So this thing is called it's my noise.net. And this person has put together all these different noise cause noise generator, sound generators. I wish it wasn't noise because noise is a, has a negative connotation in my mind, versus anyway. And it has a whole lot of different binaural beats and and it's this beautiful thing.
You'll love it, man. Cause you could actually mix in different things that you want to play. Like it's an amazing tool. As far as some of my earlier music that I've released, which was music for yoga is basically some of that more like SIM simple approach to it. I imagine some sort of like sound bath experiences with crystal balls and things that are more slow and intentional.
But I think as you asked that, what comes to mind is there's probably a need. For more of it. And I don't know how much of it exists. Amen. Telling you that there's a group of us who is looking for simple not the fancy, cause to me it's less about, the, like a buffet of, I don't need a full buffet.
I just want yes. Get me to some physiological or emotional state. And then, and also as a way to train myself, to deepen my own appreciation and a relationship with sound. Which I would say as a listener yes, as a participant in doing the process yourself, It's gotta be, I don't know what X return is, but many more, like listening that somewhat to me play these two notes over and over in a meditative way, versus you figuring out or finding out or learning how to do that yourself.
It the the returns are much greater if you become the self generator of it. And I think that's a big part of what I'm sharing, I wanted to let's see, is there anything else that I wanted to say about this? That's actually moved to more of a Mrs. Ms. More esoteric stuff, more and more tourism.
Type things made some, I thought it was really powerful. Profound statements, really? You had said mysticism is an exploration of the mystery. So say a little bit more about that. Like why do you even care to study that? And then we can go from there. One of the things I heard Robert say that really impacted me, Robert Fripp that, let me see how to recall it as close to what he said.
That's too, mastery comes through the word of master I'm paraphrasing which is masculine and there's no sort of in our vernacular, the feminine counterpoint to it. But maybe mystery could be that if we look at it, swimming, upstream, mystery life. Yeah. And I think where people oftentimes go wrong and myself included my previous ages, trying to master the mystery where.
You can't master the mystery, first of all, and the mystery isn't to be mastered. And but mysticism would be the exploration of the mystery, I would say. So what is the mystery of life? It's I've been it could rat, all of it in a way is w what is reality? What is spirituality?
What does spirit, what does, what is God? How do rituals change our internal. Space soul, all these types of things. So I found interest in exploring less so now, honestly but what's going on and at a level that seemingly science can't touch or answer or hasn't yet or even the mind he does something deeper with like when I feel something that one might call divinity or the divine experience where my soul.
What is that thing, and what are these different traditions that have formed around that? Kabala has been a big part of my study soup ism to some degree specifically via Haas writing that Khan who wrote amazing books, the mysticism of sound and music that really explored this relationship that we could feel and sense in words might become very poetic and lead us to it, but never really get us there.
It felt I guess even from a very young age, I've been a secret and very curious to what is going on? Like something top level societal interaction ever felt like the real stuff to me. Yeah. Identities, occupations, like I guess ego or relationship. To life in the world or a very young age, it was like, no, that's not it.
And maybe my experiences with music and my just love for music and musicians and what that just to be at that inquiry. And I think part of it the mysticism of literally sounded music is like beyond all the vibrations, all the stuff we just talked about in the neural networks and this and that.
Like what the fuck, like how is it that we've had that music is here? What is that even, like beyond just like the intellectual approach, I'll give a quick kind of like intrigued that I've had that seems to give an example of this. It's the relationship to music as an intelligence that goes beyond this world, let's say so.
If we think about music as a means to help organize consciousness, organize people and evolve it. And not just from a scientific standpoint, but for sorta from this understanding of it's a consciousness entering in our world to guide us somewhere. So pre verbal humans, whatever those things might have been.
They're there together in small little groups, somebody hunting they capture something, they find some food. They want to call the group together. They don't know how to do it. Because they don't have words to use for it. So maybe they make a sound there's lots of sounds in the environment. So maybe they pick up a log in a log and smack it together.
That's just a singular sound and that might engage the attention of awareness. Oh, something just happened. I don't know what it is. It could be random. Let's say there's, that's beginning to become a pattern that engages the awareness even deeper. Oh, something that's more than just something random, but it still might be random, but I'm a little bit more calls of the sound.
Then you have a three pattern. Now we have a pattern. Chances of that being random or highly unlikely compared to it being intentional that organizes the mind a little bit more into seeking for that. Now people are coming together. Now, maybe they're participating together.
That's bringing them into synchrony then maybe that helps them survive a little bit better. And now they're humming some sounds and then they find some words to the sounds. And now they're encoding the history into songs and being able to transfer information from one generation to the other. Before you could write things down through songs in that helps people exist better and function better and evolve.
As they evolve better, the music becomes more complex because their consciousness is becoming more complex. And eventually they discovered different notes. Pythagoreous for example, and harmonies and the math of it. And then eventually that helps them organize their mind to come to a, another level of being.
Then you begin to have more elaborate music and harmony, classical music, complexities of that continues to evolve. The brain brings people together. Then eventually you have. Like rock and roll and the electronic, the music, which is very precise and gets into very small frequency development and relationships, which is way more complex than any other music has been.
In the history of humanity, which also now is bringing people together in a certain way and bringing the brains together. So we could look at all of that from just Nantha watch anthropological standpoint, but we could also look at that from a mystical standpoint of consciousness has guided us along the way to develop using music as this path is that okay.
Is curious to me and a mystery that. I don't have the answers for, but there's something deep enough in the exploration of it. Yeah. So someone who is engineer train write music to me for a long time was just a form of passive entertainment to a plant medicine ceremony. Then I was like, Oh, there's so much more beyond what I thought I heard.
Cause all I wa all I did was I hear the notes. But I didn't really listen. I didn't really internalize. I didn't really reflect on the internal basis. And that actually reminds me of the doubter Jane. The opening line is if you can articulate the Dow is not the eternal doubt, however, poetry and music gets closer.
Yes. Actually feel the in between spaces as well as the notes actually receive. The wisdom in the sounds that you beautifully articulated. So yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So one thing that you said is everything is vibration and music is the, is a tool that actually ultimately unites everyone.
Can you say a little bit more about that? Like how do you know the world through that lens about vibration and how use this powerful tool? That access that the internal thought Dow. Yeah, and I think this is where the mystics of ancient times, specifically the ratios in the yoga texts cabalist Sufi, even Christian, not like Gnostics to some degree and other traditions understood everything as this vibratory universe, specifically in the yoga.
Mysticism like authentic tantra and which just to differentiate is not Neo tantra, actually I don't know the difference. Can you pull more about that? Yes. Neo tantra is like the modernization of. Like Osho is, for example, one of the founders of what we call Neo tantra most when they hear the word tantra, they think sex authentic tantra while there is an aspect of that.
That is not, it goes much deeper than that. It's like getting, it's a mantra and internal alchemy and all these types of things there's there. The Neo tantric movement is basically for lack of a better word, a bastardization of the word. And the concept of uniting polarities completely. We're like focused in on intimacy, and all of that and most that's great.
Can you back up two sentences? Sure. Ask me one more time. So say that again. One more time, please. The Neo tantra, the differentiation. Yeah. Yeah, basically. It's pretty much a bastardization of the constant. The, one of the main concepts of tough, authentic tantra is polarities. Shock the masculine feminine, outer, and the merging of the two.
So Neo tantra been, was like, Oh like sex, like sexual kind of a thing. She is a part of authentic tantra, but it's not the primary focus. It's Neo tantra made it all about that. And pretty much made up a bunch of practices and called it tantra. That some of them may have some connections to the authentic practices.
Most don't basically this thing, which I don't want to say is negative because I think it does it can really be helpful for people, but just differentiate what w what I am speaking about tantra, it's actually the authentic texts, and I'm not what we would consider Neo tantra anyway. Mystics understood everything as a vibrational thing.
The universe. Itself is a vibrational entity. This is, I think, as far as my understanding of current day physics is where their science is getting to as well like that string theory and everything has these vibrational patterns. I mean that at the subatomic level we find vibration, we find electrons spinning and the whole deal, creating molecules, which are not always zoom in are not a static thing, but actually in movements, And that creates crystallization that we would call matter, which seems very stable and not moving.
But if we zoomed in, we would see that there is movement. And if we zoom out into the more macro universe, we see there's movement as well. We're on a planet that is moving around a star. That's also in motion and the galaxy, the Milky way is spiraling and movement. So as far as our observation, we can see both the macro and the micro.
As movement being a constant, although movement can coalesce into forms of stability, which is where I see music as this etheric thing that it does it coalesces stability to some degree with movements. When those notes are vibrating in relationship, that's stable, it's almost like we have a musical molecule in a way, and we can build upon that.
And then there's levels of dissonance, just and in chemistry we break apart molecule, I don't know chemistry, but I think that's what they do. Or if you transformed that things from one state into another changing things up, and there's an act of dissonance in that movement or changing the tempo.
It's where it becomes unstable. When you heat up. Water. You're literally changing the temple of water, temperature root of it, where those molecules are getting faster and faster, where they begin to release their matter form or, become a gas at that point versus what he slowed down.
The temple of water. I make a colder temperature. It begins to crystallize into literal crystals, ice crystals. So there's a play of a balance and change and all this type of things, which I think music. Is a beautiful map to all of that, basically. That's one of the aspects of it. Yeah, no, this is great.
I really appreciate that. So if you look at the fractal nature of really from the, on the molecules to human beings, to family units, to two communities, two societies and the whole planet and then universal. So you can go all the way up all the way down.
So how are you from your perspective? Cause you share part of your yoga of sound is to use sound as a way to self regulate. Yes. The self. And so let's actually inquire further. Beyond the self. How do you see sound slash music as a way to access the consciousness of again, oneself as well as the group, as well as, family unit and so on expansion from that.
Yeah. Yeah. I think, the harmony of oneself as the primary thing as a musician to play something that is harmonious. And I'm not necessarily just talking about harmonious sounds, but let's say stable, even if it's dissonant,
there's AR there's a way to do that as stable or.
It's further away, harder to hear that as music versus something that has more regular regulation to it, something in order for a musician to begin to invoke, let's say the presence of music, there's a necessity of inner regulation. That's necessary that individual, when two or more people do that together, something greater occurs a band playing together in sync together.
Create something that's at the sum is larger than than the parts. Something greater comes from that in doing so now you have, let's say three or four people internally sinked up to themselves and their process and this intelligence of music and with each other who are all doing that as well.
So there's kind of these greater levels of feedback, loop of individual alignments and awareness. Of alignment with music and specifically time as let's say, one of the etheric grids of the intangible grids within all that's coalescing and creating something that attracts humans. It, when a human here is, let's say a group of four people or 40 doing that, I think it helped we resonate it.
We feel it, something, it aligns the listener as well, especially if they're listening deeper. So the deeper that they're able to listen, the more internal alignment they're getting and dependent on how aligned those people are. Just a great example. And when I speak of genres, I don't speak of them in any negative terms.
Just look at the function of it. Look at the function of punk music on the being punk is a. It's a, it's an answer to too much order. Let's say when punk music came up, came out it's, and it was ordered disorder and it creates or disorder. If you even look at the fashion of punk music, that the asymmetries of the Fang and the spikes, and like it has this sort of thing.
And if you look at people, slammed dancing, for example, you see quite literally this violence being generated by the music. This aggression because the music is people are receiving the aggression of the people and they're expressing it. I'm not saying that's good or bad. That's just doing what that is.
Sometimes it can be cathartic. If we look at other music that might help, people come into a level of love together, for example, music that it's expressing love, the musician is tuning into the frequency of love or the experience of it. And then the listener feels that so listen to serve is receiving this combination.
Musician human filters, music as a transcendental type of thing. Anyway, it generates group not only individual coalescence, but group coalescence. So two people can dance together in rhythm. Now you're having two people sinking up their internal rhythms that heartbeat their breath, their neural patterns.
And when that happens, I think we experienced something that feels more of a unity than than a dissonance. When people begin to resonate together, becoming trained together. There's a sense of merging that I don't know why it is. But we seem to like it as humans. And it seems that the more we do that, the more we exist in peace and the more we are in different rhythms or notes or whatever, the more potential for clash, sometimes there can be beautiful.
Opposites track, sometimes there can be clash. So I think part of the function of music as a mysticism is that it's this intelligence. So that's helping people organize integrator synchrony as humans to recognize a unity and hopefully bring more peace into the world, which I think we could actually see that it's done even.
Oh, how let's look at Let's look at the music that came through the sixties, for example. So you could see the music from the forties or fifties, like when rock and roll began. It rock and roll, shook things up, shake it up, baby. Like it, and even the patterns are actually a little bit asynchronous to heartbeat that kind of alerts and stimulates the nervous system.
I think humanity needed that, we're just coming off of our second world war, where we dropped the most destructive bombs that have ever been developed in humanity. Real serious shit. At that point, the, like the impact of it, or all of a sudden it was magnified to a degree that humanity had never felt before.
And I think something needed to change and something did change. I like after that, I feel like part of the music was to help wake people up out of a certain trance in a way of, differences and come into alignment. For some degree, and then you have a kind of culminating, at least in my mind in Woodstock where you have, half a million people or so no fights, everyone coming together to listen to a music that seems to be channeled from something more than just, and this is all pre rockstar, even, at least the commodification of the music industry, but this is people who were called to this music.
Jimmy Hendrix, he wasn't trying to be something that's who he was. This was coming through him and it brought people together into level of consciousness. So I feel like that movement changed the course of humanity in a way and the sort of movement of music into a carrier of love and harmony and coming from that place nice has seated that continues to happen today.
A different level of consciousness that is looking towards agreements and Commonalities rather than being stuck in your, that I'm this, you're different than in your bag. Therefore so I have a two-part question, right? So the first part question is, do you feel that the popular music of the time is a direct reflection of the consciousness?
The collective whole. So that's the first part. It's a big question, but not in the second part of the question is, I don't know if you've ever watched Elizabeth Gilbert's Ted talk. She talked about the concept of amuse being a channel, a conduit, and having amused one with a nut or a genius, visit her in.
If she's not ready as the conduit vessel, she would then visit. And then the writer. So she shared an example between Michael Jackson and Prince as an example, and Prince was, or Michael Jackson would say, Hey, if I don't write this song, Prince has got to write it. They have some right to know your thoughts about, let me recap the question. Do you feel like the music popular music at the time is a direct reflection of our consciousness and to the whole idea of having been a conduit, a vessel for the muse to come visit. Yeah, I think it's definitely a reflection of the consciousness. And there's, like I said, the moment and it also seems to be something of the future calling us forward a feature, why the future calling us forward to it.
If there's something about the current, generally, I like current music times, and I think it's expedited now, especially with technology and the sort of the digital part aspect, which has really changed a lot of parts about music. But there was something when I listened to some music, I'm like, shit, this is the future.
Even though it's right now, but it's like calling us, it's calling us forward into something. I think that's part of the benevolence and the intelligence of music is that it's organizing us into a more harmonious complex future moment, basically. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does.
Yeah. More of a I think you said it beautifully calling us forth. Yeah. Yeah. And a reflection of the moment, and different musics, are different reflections and serve different purposes when hip hop, first of all, I mean that was a music that was necessary for a culture to express pain and bring awareness to injustice in it.
And I think that music was. Was born from that, I think it's changed into something else now. It definitely has there's a great Netflix series, the evolution of hip hop that really is well done. And gosh, from the, the disco, the merging of disco anyway. Some music can be different things, but I think it's always a reflection of the moment and generally guiding into the future potentially, there's some destructive musics, I would say as well or music that has some destructive Consequences, just sonically and vibrationally and mentally and mindset and all of that second question.
The, I don't think quite works like that. If I don't get it, somebody else I don't know but it doesn't, that doesn't make sense to my own personal model of health. The whole thing works. Okay. Looking at the w as a student of. Vibrations as a teacher, as a musician, as someone who actually creates and produce music as a trainer of other people getting into music and sound what a, and now we're just hypothesizing here.
Yeah. We'll have we have, we've been all along. Yeah. In a very, a divided world that we are in today. What kind of music is yearning can be born? Brought into the world. What is the world divided? I hadn't noticed polarized. Yeah, that's a really great question. And one of the things I really love about right now is the diversity of artistry that's available and continuing to evolve. As a musician. I don't love Spotify is royalty payment model because it is not so equitable. As a lover of music, I love Spotify. It is not only gives me the listener access to.
So much music, but there's also like the AI generative. It figures out what I like, and I don't have a, I don't have a defined taste. It's not like I like blues and it sends me a bunch of blues. I like weird undefinable things. And somehow it finds new artists to send me that I really love. So I think there is the beauty of the diversification of music right now is amazing because I think there's more room than ever for an artist.
To share their unique voice that touches people and the less need to have of a mass audience mess, chances were more necessary in the past because it didn't make sense to print any less than X amount of albums or CDs, because there was just like hard costs to doing it. It didn't make sense to two or two, unless there's X amount of people.
So you needed a certain level of foundation critical mass. To make it sustainable. That's not the case now, it's like the I forgot who wrote that thing, but the thousand true fans, like Kelly. Yeah. Just that model. So somebody like myself who I haven't released any music released recently, but my music that I've released for yoga, there's a consistent amount of listens that blows my mind that it happens, that wouldn't have happened in the eighties, that many people buying the, see, finding the CD, it just wouldn't have happened.
But now that the distribution model has become decentralized. So I think what I don't know what type of music it is. I think it's more of perhaps the diversity of music that becomes available to speak to different people who need to hear different messages in the service might
as well as humanity become more diverse individuals. And I think that's part of what is part of the divide in a way. Is like a growing pains of more uniqueness, in both of sides of the division, I think are freaked out by it in a way you've got like the conservatives freaked out by people who are playing with gender fluidity and different, in different aspects of identity.
And then you've got people on the left, freaked out by people who are playing with different levels of sovereignty and exploring what is freedom really mean? And what is civilian right versus government? Anyway, I think there's like depth. I think part of it is new versions of freedom that people are exploring that can create a dissonance from different perspectives and.
I think maybe the healing of it is both embracing that we're growing into greater levels of diversity and that music offers that for different people and maybe guides us to embracing that. Rather than that, we could have a harmony of diversity rather than modular idea of unity, yeah. So are there any tools or so in my mind I'm a student of technology as I like mental models and frameworks and to as well, and I'm on I'm entrepreneurial you're entrepreneur. So what are some of the up and coming tools that you've come across that you feel is more conducive, empowering for you to really help bring your.
Your tao, to others who me personally or more generally. Yeah. Through your lens, what have you observed that you're excited about, Oh, this particular technology, this particular tool that empowers artists like you to, make the kind of difference in impact that you want to make.
Yeah. I haven't seen anything new that I feel well. Okay. We can look at it in three levels. I think. So there's the general, there's a generation generating music. That would be the, some sort of education thing, which I think zoom online trainings. Is amazing because we continue to decentralize that, like the need for that.
I think I've see kids. I think kids learning from YouTube videos, like just the amount of information that's available to learn from is greater than ever. And therefore, I think it's expediting process of learning. There's, VHS tapes, you could order for 50 bucks of the guitar player. And that was it was that your local teacher, now you have the world available.
So I think decentralization of education is huge and. Helping people learn music. I think as programs get simpler like Ableton live, for example, a grass band as a starter program, people have the experience of beginning to work with a recorded medium of music and alter and change it in a way that is makes music, makes making music easier.
The process of actually creating it at least like at the functional level, not the creator have level, but at least at the technical level and then mechanical level yep. Level. Yeah. And then the education to do that, along with that, and then decentralized distribution models that are AI driven to begin to figure out what people like and give them music that they like, that inspires them to create more.
Like I get inspired by the music I hear. And then AI would obviously, I'm sorry. Virtual reality would in AR would be the next step, but I have some visions. I don't feel ready to speak publicly on it cause I would like to develop them. But I think beginning to see and experience music in the fourth dimension, which we don't normally do music when music is written notation, it's two dimensional.
And it's binary and it's very abstract from like dots on a paper with lines. It means absolutely nothing. We understand the representation of what it means, and we learn that it's a very abstract and laborious model that has been functional. But with the advent of depth and movements, we actually can begin to engage with music in an AR or VR way.
That music is more can have music really is. I think, guitar hero is is a primitive version of that where you're going through time while you're playing well, that's what you're doing when you're playing. So to have visual representation, especially in a a three and fourth dimensional representation, I think we'll begin to expand a lot of things.
Yeah. And actually what comes to mind is the VR meditation app called trip, essentially coming your way. You essentially can visualize meditation. Which is paradoxical because the whole point of meditation is to go inward, not to look at the VR world, but I digressed another idea. Do you mind, as you were speaking, is, I don't know if you played this game before.
I don't know the name of the game. Essentially. You have two knives and things are coming your way. You're slicing them. So you can actually use that to create music as a possibility. I'm not a gamer, but that's just something that way. Yeah, I haven't seen that game either, but yeah. Music is a play of space and time.
Yeah. So I think what's what actually, it would be really interesting as an exploration. We don't have to come up with a solution right now. It's not just the creative aspect of it because we have more channel of distribution. Yes. But I think fundamentally what could be really interesting is thinking about how.
Artists can collaborate with each other more. AI suggested a way, Hey, if you like Josh's music, you might see K's music, Josh and CK, you guys should work together and have a collaboration, so you can cross pollinate your audience. So that way you have more and more of that moat, right? Yeah.
True fans grows accordingly. So that way you're not dependent on a distribution channel, like Spotify as a way to help. Support and monetize your lifestyle as a creator. Yeah. Just a thought. I don't have a, but that's something I think would be really interesting as a way to seamlessly collaborate with other similar audiences.
So then you can grow you up. Yeah. I think why I like the idea of AI driven by taste to bring collaborators together. I think th that's pretty brilliant. It hasn't been. Then before I had the idea some years back of like of a dating app that was based on your Spotify listens. Cause I hear you.
I have this hypothesis. If you have the same taste of music, chances are you'll get along. Whether it's a romantic connection, I don't know. But there's some, there's, I think chances are you'll get along. Yeah. So guys, if you're listening, Hey, we just offer you some brilliant ideas, check it out, let us know.
Cut us in on the founder's stock. Last question. I want to be super respectful of your time. Last question is this so thinking back on what young Josh, what he was struggling with dealing with? Okay. What would be, we said a lot of different things and tactics and frameworks throughout this entire conversation, what would be like the one thing, if the young Josh can hear what you're about to share, it would really help him.
Yeah. Can I ask about w like how young the beginning part of his entrepreneurial career, where he's facing self doubts, where he's saying. What should I do go to the left. I'll go to the right. Or, reinventing myself. Yeah. As a musician to entrepreneur, what would you say to the young Josh listening?
I would say that to allow both time and space to explore and to do your best to mitigate stress, anxious, panic responses. Along the way
to invest an equal time into tuning, into intuition and clearing distractions in static and noise. That can the way so in parallel with action also internal work and making sure that there, that the internal world is being tuned in and nourished to work towards. A lower valuation than a higher valuation.
I think. What does that mean? I didn't understand that okay. We all want the big ticket item that scales so that we can have the maximum ROI, I think, yeah. Like to focus rather than like impressive, maximum ROI. What is lowest level of sustainable ROI first and tune into that rather than trying to, just to, the six or seven figure a year thing right off the bat, the big launch, let's work on the sustainable ROI.
That feels good. It feels in alignment with you. If you're getting caught up in technical stuff, and that is losing the engagement, find a simpler way to do it. Specifically, rather than trying to figure out the whole sequence of auto-responders and the thing and the ClickFunnels and thing. And the thing, if that is not working, is there an easier way, if it takes more manual, labor than automation, maybe that's okay.
So again, rather than trying to just scale ROI, time, money, return, everything from the get-go like. Like just get it functional in proof of concept and not just proof of concept from a sales in a monetary way, but from a way that what you're offering is working. So focusing on the actuality of the product, for lack of a better word, the offering, the process that you are trading for money, work on that and trust that when that's developed and that's coming from a place of value and support for other people, then the return will begin to happen naturally. And then the scale will also begin to happen as a natural reflection of that things. I would say. Thank you so much, Josh, let me take a moment to really acknowledge you.
I so appreciate you as a friend, as a colleague, as a teacher, as a mentor and everything that you stand for and what you do. In this conversation, you shared very generously with your journey of someone who, desires to be a musician who is super heady to, being a master teacher.
You share with us also. Your teaching philosophy, you what makes a great teacher and that's a great teacher, right? You share it with us also on your philosophy, your own rum, how music is a tool to access the mystery of the universe. A little bit about that too, as well. So we went in a lot of different grounds and I think for.
Younger CK or Josh or anyone who is starting their career reinventing themselves. Your last tip was definitely on point about how to actually focus on the atomic unit up to offer versus getting to all the fancy, the automation tools, the models, and the funnels and all that stuff. So that way people can continue to give their gift.
Made the kind of starting to make the kind of difference I want to make. So thank you so much for the way you show up on our conversation. Thank you CK. And I'll take a moment to acknowledge you which is, this is really delightful, a real beautiful experience. You hold a wonderful space of good questions and inquiry and you're Ability to listen brings forward things.
It's like in music, the depth of the listener will bring the musician out, and that could be the individual listener and musician or the audience. So you I found just through this, an ability to find a expression that oftentimes is not so available with me, or I have the opportunity to open that channel.
So I really appreciate you as a facilitator to open that. And it's a real gift. Yeah, I see. Okay. I see that gift expanding and it benefits a lot of people. So thank you for holding the space and the invitation. I really appreciate you.