My next guest is Chris Voss, who is the CEO & Founder of The Black Swan Group Ltd

  • Author of Never Split The Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It. (1 million copies sold)
  • Most popular course instructor on masterclass.com
  • Former lead International hostage negotiator at the FBI

We talked about:

  • How he discovered tactical empathy as a superior negotiation method after dealing with cutthroat commodity dealers
  • Why hammering his opponent with empathy got him better deals
  • How his mindset around negotiation is fundamentally different than most people
  • How he maintained positive even after dealing with terrorists for 25 years
  • How tone is the single most overlooked superpower when it comes to negotiation
  • How practice is the path to mastery even for something as esoteric as a cold read and tonality
  • Chris’s morning rituals to setup his day for success
  • And his project 120 to stay healthy at age 120

Links

Full Episode

 

Wisdom Quotes

As soon as you take the better or worse out. It's actually a lot easier to be optimistic because you know, you're not as mad at people as much. You know, somebody doesn't work out on a company it's not good or bad on him or us. It just… Click To Tweet Tone is a superpower tone may be the single most overlooked superpower out there. Click To Tweet Small stakes practice for high stakes result. As soon as you start paying attention to your tone at all, it will immediately improve. Click To Tweet Make a wild guess and say it in a nice way. And which gives you all the latitudes. And every time you make a guess, you're going to get feedback on how good your guess was Click To Tweet How am I supposed to do that? That's expressing 'no' gently, but it's saying that you're open to a better idea. Click To Tweet Since everything is emotional, let's just drop a lot more empathy into this bare knuckle vicious bargaining with commodities dealers. On the other side, they were cutthroats and killers, the definition of a sociopathic commodity dealer,… Click To Tweet Jim Collins' book. Good to great doesn't mean that good failed, you know, the real problem with getting to the next level is you probably doing pretty well. The model doesn't fail, but they stop improving. Click To Tweet Mario Cuomo demonstrated understanding on a consistent or regular basis. And even if people that disagreed with his policies trusted him because of his empathy. Click To Tweet Negotiations is a tool set. Which means it's neutral. It's neither good, nor bad. It depends upon what you're using it for now. We're all collaborative. We all believe in long-term success. We want to build something with people. We want… Click To Tweet Perfection is a fool's errand because you are always going to be disappointed and there's no success model out there that says being always disappointed is good for you. Click To Tweet

 

Transcript by AI

Chris Voss Transcript by AI

The Art of High-Stakes Influence & Negotiation Chris Voss

welcome to Nobel warrior. My name is CK Lynn noble warriors were interviewed consciousness center entrepreneurs about their journey from warrior to commender to King. What deconstruct the mindset, mental models, Ashmore tactics. So you can take everything you learn and built your life with more impact and fulfillment.

[00:00:18]If you have any friends who can use better mindset, please share with them. So they too can benefit from your discovery. 

[00:00:25] My next guest is Chris Voss. He's the best-selling author of never split the difference so far. He is so one mailing copies or why he's the most popular course instructor, a masterclass.com.

[00:00:38] He's also a former lead international hostage negotiator at the FBI. He's now the CEO and founder at the black Swan group. 

[00:00:47]We talked about how he discovered tactical empathy as a superior negotiation method after dealing with cutthroat commodity dealers, and why hammering his opponent with empathy got him better deals. How he's my set around negotiation is fundamentally different than most people and why it's better and how you maintain positive even after dealing with terrorists for 25 years.

[00:01:13] How tone is the single most undervalued superpower when it comes to negotiation and how practice is the path to mastery, even for something as esoteric as a cold read or tonality. Lastly, we talked about Chris's morning rituals to set his day up for success in his project. One 22, stay healthy at age one 20.

[00:01:38] Please enjoy my conversation with former FBI lead international hostage negotiator, Chris Voss. 

[00:01:45] The Art of High-Stakes Influence & Negotiation Chris Voss: [00:01:45] Please welcome. Right. You see Carey pleasure to be here with you today. I am so excited to know through my research. I mean, I knew you from our men's group together. You're alive with Kenrick Trotsky.

[00:02:00] Yeah. You're a likable guy. I know that I really liked you. I know that you're a practitioner of your work, but through my own research and really diving deeper into the work that you do. I, now get your context of why you do what you do. So the first question I want to ask you is this universally people, when they hear that I'm going to be talking to you, their responses.

[00:02:30] I love Chris. I love that book. So the question I have for you is how are you able to maintain this brightness, this positivity, this kindness and generosity. After 25 years of dealing with bad guys, all over the world,

[00:02:49] you know, I, um, general work ethic. Yeah. Core value, which we use in my company today. Part of it is, you know, have fun where you work work with hardworking people that are team players. I mean, I've always really enjoyed the people that I was around. And it's been a thread through my whole life.

[00:03:13] You know, hard work and fun people faces short answer and, doing good. I mean, we can realize that you can't be perfect. I mean, not, not everything is gonna work out. You pick your stuff up, you dust yourself off and you move on. Yeah. You can just get smarter. I guess I asked that question, not in a leading way, but I'm so curious because it's easy to.

[00:03:37] Become cynical or in bitter, especially you're a master, you're a student of human nature. It's easy to go down that path. Like, Oh, people are just going to be shitty or whatever, but yet you're still so positive and kind and generous with every interaction that we have with even there's no audience. I I'm like just in all about how you're able to do that.

[00:04:02] Yeah. You know, I probably even more so over the last couple of years you know, we focus intensely on getting better every day. I mean, we're basically optimistic and you realize, you realize you're not going to be perfect. So, you know, it's, it's an abundant world than any other thing too. We've been my company, you know, we've, we've pivoted in the pandemic really easily.

[00:04:29] Because we're we, run the operation on something called the entrepreneurial operating system, us talk to us by uh, guys become very good friend, John Smith. And, you know, he's got us really focused on our core values in the very beginning. And you know, my son and I run a company with my daughter-in-law and we were like, core values, work hard, you know, what are you gonna, how are you going to figure that out?

[00:04:54] It's like now it's more, it's more complicated than that. And then it said also, when you, when things don't work out with employees, with customers, with clients, with anybody in life, there's going to be a core value mismatch. Now that's no good or no bad on anybody, you know, because your core values are different from theirs.

[00:05:15] Doesn't make them any better or worse. So as soon as soon as you take the better or worse out. It's actually a lot easier to be optimistic because you know, you're not as mad at people as much. You know, somebody doesn't work out on a company it's not good or bad on him or us. It just didn't work it out.

[00:05:33] Personal relationship doesn't work out. Is that good or bad on anybody? It just didn't work out. You know, we weren't a good fit. We weren't meant to be working together. And I think that helps keep you from being jaded. So, so one of my favorite moments in your masterclass is when you're trying to describe the importance of tone, like, Oh, this is not a good deal for us.

[00:05:57] This is not good deal for us, or, you know, some kind of way. And then you essentially, we're trying to underline the lessons of tone because tone reveals your inner voice in that, in that class, you said. Oh, you're such an idiot. And that actually made me laugh out loud. You said this in the masterclass a couple of times.

[00:06:16] So that made me laugh out loud because that's how I talk. That reveals my true intention. So, uh, so I'm curious for someone like me, who may I have a monotone, a robotic voice. Um, is there anything that I could do to practice to be better at. Um, tactically using my tonality so that, you know, I can interact with people better.

[00:06:46] Yeah. You know, that's a great question. I mean, tone is a superpower tone tone may be the single most overlooked, super power out there. And you could do so much with tone, uh, and yeah, among the books that, uh, we're a fan of the talent code by Daniel Coyle. Coil content's that everything is learned. You know, you originally asked me, is there anything I can do about my tone?

[00:07:08] Yeah. Your tone is learned. Everything is learned, you know, I'm not, you can't learn to be seven feet tall. You know, I can't learn to be, you know, my son is six, three, 325 pounds. I can't learn to be as big as he is, but pretty much everything else, uh, is learned. So yeah. You know, you practice your tone, not, you know, if I listen to my tone because of the way I'm wired.

[00:07:33] I can hear my voice. Uh, if I, if I open up that part of my brain, but it's, it's practice, you know, small stakes practice for high stakes result. As soon as you start paying attention to your tone at all, it will immediately improve. And then, um, uh, I think his name is John Foley, blue angel pilot. I heard him speak a couple years ago.

[00:08:00] He was talking about how long does it take to build a skill? He called it wiring a groove in your brain because the blue angels, you know, they can't, they can't build their skills. The first time they get up in the air with each other, they'll be dead. They got to build their skills on the ground where they actually get into planes.

[00:08:16] And he said, uh, according to his data that the, you know, 63, 64, 65 repetitions, which translates anecdotally into most people say it takes three weeks to pick up a skill. Well, if you're trying and treat four times a day to work on something, and it's going to take about three weeks to get those 65 repetitions in.

[00:08:39] So just, you know, practice your tone, a little where people really go down on tone of voice is they replay conversations in their head and they replay them or they envision them getting angry. Like, I wish I would've said this you're such an idiot, you know, or, you know, I, I kicked it to the Joe Biden thing recently on my answer.

[00:09:07] And, uh, a lot people that are pro Trump, pro Republican, they immediately shoot back. Well, what about the way Malania was treated? Um, and then seeing themselves saying in that tone of voice, I mean, you could say the same thing and say, What about the way millennia was treated, you know, and that would land.

[00:09:32] So you can, you could go back and you can rewire how you played in your head and you can, you can build your skills by yourself if you want to. Well, yes, I'm want to drill in on that just a bit because your, you interact with terrorist and people, you know, who made me just. You simply don't agree with or their line of thinking.

[00:09:53] So you may be logically questioning like, wow, this, this guy sounds pretty insane, but you have to tactically maintain your tone so that you can have that relationship. And similarly, right. Let's say a political candidate. You don't agree with them or whatever. How do you still maintain that tone? I guess that's, that's where I'm.

[00:10:12] Trying to get at, like, how do you maintain we practice? I mean, we live really practiced. I mean, I'm not gonna, you know, as a hostage negotiator, it's insane to think that the first time I should practice negotiating should be in a live event with an actual Al-Qaida terrorist. I mean, that's, that sounds silly when you put it like that.

[00:10:37] So yeah, we practiced. I mean, we got, we got some role role-play practice. You know, I got, I got a lot of live action practice on suicide hotlines. Now I stumbled into the tone, I think, cause I was scared and nervous initially. Like the first time you're on a hotline, you're going to take some calls.

[00:10:55] Supervise. Yeah. So the first, you know, cause it makes sure that if you start yelling at the guy that called in, they're going to disconnect the line. If you lose control. And the first time I was on the phone, I dunno, I guess maybe cause I was so tentative. I mean, I naturally did the late night FM DJ voice and I got off the phone and they were like, wow, your tone of voice was great.

[00:11:20] And I was like, wow, really? What. What did I do? And I just tried to duplicate it again, and everybody commented on how good the tone was. So I just became aware of it and I intentionally practiced it. You got to get your practicing. Nobody, you know, nobody does any good Michael Jordan, you know, LeBron, James, anybody pick pickup, an athlete tiger woods tiger woods is out on the driving range.

[00:11:48] He's out on the practice. Uh, greens trying to win the masters with that being a first time, this month that he picked up his clubs. So what kind of, because I know that you like to play games as a way to practice, right? You said you're a, I'm kind of alluding to the hotels, you know, negotiation thing you say within your practice.

[00:12:11] Yeah. Yeah. You guys have practice as a, as a student to make it more fun. What are some of the other. You know, ways to ritualize and practice and continue to practice the whole skills of negotiation. Yeah. Well, you know, anybody you encounter is something. We call it a cold read. You take a look at their face, read gas, do a swag.

[00:12:39] Swag is a scientific wild ass guess, you know, guess what emotions going through their brain. And then when you walk up to him, the Cappy say pretty good day, huh? Or if they look kind of happy, say tough day or anybody, you know, your Uber driver, Uber driver gets in. I mean, you got it. You got a good read, your Uber, your Lyft driver, right.

[00:13:08] And these days I'm in left more. I'm going over. You got a good read on that guide based on guy or gal. Based on where they parked, you know, they park right in front of you, you know, they parked 10 feet away from you. You know, you get tons of data on their mindset. As soon as you get in that car, if they don't turn around, uh, their tone of voice, when they ask, you know, are you Chris?

[00:13:38] You, you don't take a read and make a, make a wild guess and say it in a nice way. And which gives you all the latitudes. You need to be wrong. And every time you make a guess, you're going to get feedback on how good your guess was. Then the next time you're going to be even better, you know, just practice Starbucks, wherever you are.

[00:13:58] So somebody on a phone call, customer service for your phone company. And, uh, you know, what would you guess you guess that the last person from customer service, the last customer, they spoke to probably yelled at him. So call in and say, I bet it's been a long day in there, you know, practice. Yeah. I mean, uh, I wanted to push the book a bit, um, for any of you who haven't actually read the book, one of the things I, I particularly, because I, I don't know if you can tell them a super cerebral and heady guy, I like mental models.

[00:14:34] Get that gives me something tangible that can try on versus just, Hey, read human beings and that's. It's yeah, it's too esoteric for me. But what you provide in the book specifically, you, uh, two things I actually, uh, really stood out for me is how do you actually say no in a nice way? And then how do you do it, you know, in, in, um, increasingly more assertive way as well.

[00:15:01]Yeah, you gotta be able to say no. I mean, you gotta be able to say and say it nicely and you know, there are negotiators out there to train it, then they're literally trying to hammer you too.

[00:15:11] You said no twice. So they're gonna make you say no. So, you know, say it to her. Yeah. Well, one thing that you said in the book is Noah's a place where negotiation starts. That depends upon whether or not you're saying it or hearing it. And that's the other reason to say it in a nice way, like the way, you know, as, as, um, you know, you're well aware of, cause you read the book and it's the opening story in the book, you know, when we express no, by saying, how am I supposed to do that?

[00:15:43] I mean, that, that ghost. That's expressing the gently, but it's saying that you're open to a better idea. If they've got a better idea, why wouldn't you take it? So, and you should always, there's almost always better ideas anyway. It's impossible to know everything. So yeah, you say it gently and it, it, at the beginning of the conversation or the reset of the conversation, let's take off in another direction.

[00:16:11] Let's find some good stuff here. Yeah, I, I really love that you, instead of making negotiation an adversarial relationship, you made a point where every single interactions that I have with you to say that, Hey, negotiation is actually a process of discovery, a process of collaboration. Now was there a mental model shift?

[00:16:37] Was there, was there a moment where the old school way of trying to bulldoze people are trying to cut their throat by going as strong as possible? Was there a mental shift in your mind at some point something happened that actually have you moved from, you know, being aggressive, being forceful to. Being collaborative.

[00:16:58] Yeah. Well, you know, principally, I think, you know, my background getting into hostage negotiation, I got into it first on a crisis hotline, which is, you know, emotional intelligence solid is just, it's a masterclass on emotional intelligence. People react under pressure with the same criteria that they, when they're not under pressure.

[00:17:20] Everything is emotional. It just is. I mean, we, I know some people hate it. A lot of people hate hearing that, but it just is. I mean, the neuroscience is unequivocal and my pronunciation is bad, but it's, it's clear. Everything is emotional. So then I got into kidnap negotiations, which is straight bargaining.

[00:17:41] Now I had such a background in empathy, which we now refer to as tactical empathy. I thought, you know, let's, let's just drop a lot more empathy into this bare knuckle vicious bargaining with commodities dealers. On the other side, they were cutthroats and killers, you know, the definition of a sociopathic commodity dealer, you know, let's hammer them with empathy and see what happens.

[00:18:15] And we started just changing everything. Just, we have better deals if you will. You know, we got them, we got them quicker and we created, you know, the process of being less adversarial accelerated better and faster results. And so it was really in a time set. It probably was the first international kidnapping that I weighed into with both feet to the Schilling kidnapping in the Philippines, which talk about the book.

[00:18:47] People on the other side, sociopathic, terrorists, you know, murder and rape and killers. And if you can imagine a phrase, we hammered them with empathy and completely had the upper hand the whole time and a hostage walked away.

[00:19:06] Was there a sort of a failure of the old model? That have you reinforced this model even more? Was there a time that you can recall, like, Hey, the old model, you know, totally disastrous, totally failed. And like, I got to shift my way of looking at it. And then the lessons is now this new model that you created.

[00:19:28] Well, we had, you know, we had, we had a failure, but it's, you know, the failure was while we were in the adaptation, you know, the old models don't always fail. I mean, improvement is not always obvious, you know, uh, Jim Collins' book. Good to great. That doesn't mean that good failed, you know, the real problem with getting to the next level is you probably doing pretty well and maybe you're doing well and compared to how you were doing.

[00:19:56] Like I'm very much against aggressive negotiation, you know, very much in favor of assertive negotiation, not the same thing, but people who are passive and too agreeable and rolling over and getting killed the minute they go to a aggressive negotiation, their results are better. And they're like, Hey, this is great.

[00:20:20] No, they don't realize that they great. They just graduated from an, an AF grade to a C grade because that's an astonishing increase in improvement to go from an F to a C, but they have no idea that there's a B grader, an eighth grader and a plus grade. So the model doesn't fail, but they stop improving.

[00:20:45] And so, you know, I don't know that the old model ever actually failed us. Now, I will tell you right after the Schilling case, we had another case that ended in a train wreck disaster. And I, you know, the model didn't fail us, but we had to get better. You know, we were probably B minus B grade at that point in time.

[00:21:09] And I, we took internal stock. We did an after action. I talked to everybody and they said, nah, just this, what, what we know wasn't enough. It was inadequate. And my response was, and that's why, how I ended up at Harvard. Like, well, if it's an adequate, let's see what we can do to get better. And that's when we really started to collaborate with harvard.

[00:21:31] So if I'm hearing you, right, it's not necessarily, it's just basically picking up different tools in your toolkit. And now you have a more range and then now you can pull out different tools based on what the situation requires. Is that, is that an accurate reading? I think, I think that's a, I think that's a definite part of it.

[00:21:48] I mean, you're you, don't, you're looking for additional tools. You're in point of fact, you're always looking to get better. Like one of our coaches, we coach a lot in negotiations. They're gone, likes to say, Derek says, just get one degree better. One degree. You know, water gets one degree warmer, you know, you don't really notice, but suddenly bang at some point, it there's a sudden state change where it turns to steam, but you got that a little bit at a time.

[00:22:17] So instead of quantum improvement and it, yay. Just get a little bit better. Yeah. So. Uh, I'm curious, basically your messages practice every day, every human reaction that you have, any negotiation is a skill set that you can pick up is like going to the gym. Right? You go to the gym, you exercise your muscles and you get stronger over time.

[00:22:45] Right. So, so I want to hone in on like topically, are there. I don't know. I know you have a masterclass. I don't know if you have a Facebook group. I don't know if you have like a group coaching program type things where people can just immerse themselves in really intentional and getting better at negotiation skills and you know, this life skill that's so important.

[00:23:08] Is there anything that you see come across? Yeah. Can immerse yourself in different ways. First of all, so subscribe to our newsletter. A newsletter is, is complimentary. He comes out on Tuesday mornings. It's concise, you know, the thing that makes it even more valuable than the fact that it's free is the fact that it's actionable and it's concise.

[00:23:30] I mean, every day I get the daily ten-point briefing from the wall street journal. Like if I don't have a half an hour, 45 minutes to go through that baby, and then I need 15 to 20 minutes afterwards to absorb, but I ain't doing it. I need an hour for that. It's not that concise and actionable. It's good information, but it's too much there.

[00:23:50] Our newsletter is concise. I mean, you're going to get through it. And just a few minutes, 750 words may be actionable implemented today. So that's part of your immersion, if you will. And by the way, the best way to subscribe to the newsletter. If I may. Is a, we got a Texas sign up function. The number you text to is 33 triple seven.

[00:24:12] That's three three seven seven seven. The message you send the 33 triple seven is black Swan method. Three words, lowercase spaces between awards. You get a text back asking for your email. We'll sign you up. We got a lot of free stuff. Take the free stuff. Now there are. Facebook groups and there's actually, and I haven't seen it on Slack.

[00:24:38] I think there's a Slack group that one of the people that huge into our stuff, there have been some communities that have sprung up on their own because the stuff is so powerful. And then you get a practice with people who are like-minded and that's a really cool thing. When, when you know the cultures.

[00:25:01] Beginning to spring up on its own. Uh, we nurtured it, but we, we didn't, you know, we didn't have to grow it. Yeah. I mean, one thing that, I mean, so it's my impression of interacting with you is, you know, you give you summarized slide lifetimes that Gates have. Real on the field practices into something that's really easy to practice and, and operationalize, you know?

[00:25:31] And that's that to me is, is really, really precious. Yeah. Yeah. We, we work on making it usable. So one thing that, that I'm a very curious about is you had said it, I think in your book or somewhere the ultimate negotiator, uh, is Oprah Winfrey that you've come across.

[00:25:53] Yeah. Opera she's superstar. Yeah. I mean, there's so many reasons, so many reasons. So are there other, uh, places or people that you look at it cause you're a student of a teacher as well as students of human nature. Are there other people when you look and watch to really dive deeper into human nature as well?

[00:26:16] In addition to Oprah? Wow. Uh, well, you know, w we're constantly reading constantly picking stuff up. Um, I, you know, I love the human nature stuff. Bob buyer's book taken for a ride. What he did is crazy, and it was a relentless application of empathy, wherever you went. One of the cool things about Bob biker, former CEO of Disney, he was in company after company.

[00:26:43] They got taken over by other companies. And what happens normally to the executives in a company they got taken over, not that took over, but got taken over. All the other guys and the company get taken over. They get thrown out, they get shown the door. They don't last Iger Rose to the top. Every single time his company got taken over, uh, ABC taken over by cap cities, massive culture shifts to go from ABC to cap cities, as I recall, and then being taken over by Disney, like drastic, drastic culture shifts.

[00:27:19] But he employed empathy the whole time and Rose to the top before became CEO of Disney. He was the number two guy at Disney. They told him he was never going to be CEO. Most of the board told them in advance. Yeah, you've been a great number two. You're not going to be CEO. We get, we need to change. He becomes CEO.

[00:27:39] They tell them, okay, she's a CEO. You're not going to be CEO for that long. He's there 15 years. Relentless application of empathy. So I look for people who were applying it in their world successfully, they tend to be quiet and they tend to over a period of years, have people say, well, where did, how did they become so successful?

[00:28:06] How did they get so much? Now they have failures too. And another one that I've looked at real hard as Clive Davis. Um, uh, is a great, um, documentary out of bottom. I think it's called the soundtrack of our lives is autobiography by the same, same name. Like he's got some failures, he got kicked out of a couple of places, but he is got relationships that everyone is envious of success that everybody's envious.

[00:28:35] So how did he get this way? I'm reading this book. He's real good. And being able to lay out where the people that were against him are coming from, or the people that disagreed with it's easy to lay out who, the people that are on your side, what they, where they're coming from, what they feel, look for the guy that kind of lay out what the opposition is thinking.

[00:29:00] And you'll find that they have a tendency to have great relationships and their success accumulates year after year after year. I like that a lot. It kind of reminds me of, um, in political campaigns, there's a phrase called opposition research. Basically, you need to argue the other side better than the other side could argue it.

[00:29:23] So that way you understand both sides, then you can actually really show that empathy that you have talked about. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and one of the, one of the greatest, one of my, my favorite politician and I would never have voted for him. I never had the opportunity to Mario Cuomo. Andrew Cuomo's father was in New York when Mario Cuomo was governor huge fan of how he conducted himself as a, as a politician.

[00:29:50] Um, I'd never lived in New York. I lived in New Jersey. If I lived in New York, I don't know where that I voted for him in that cause. I don't normally vote Democrat, but I'm a massive admirer of his ability to articulate where the other side was coming from. I heard him on a talk show one time and you know, the Democrats are perceived to tax a middle-class hard proceed.

[00:30:16] And so the talk show, uh, calling guesses, well I'm from the middle class and the reason I'm against a high tax. Democrats and Cuomo says, you know, I grew up in a middle-class trembling when I grew up, that meant that we always had enough money to pay our taxes, but never enough money to take a decent vacation.

[00:30:36] And the guy went like, wow, wow. Yeah, you do get where I'm coming from. You just articulated it. And that, that was why he was governor for so long. They would pull the state of New York. The majority of the state of New York is outside of New York city. The majority of the state of New York disagreed with his policies and they put them back in the governor's office term.

[00:31:04] After time, after time, he was governor for as long as he felt like it, because he demonstrated understanding on a consistent or regular basis. And even if people that disagreed with his policies trusted him because of his empathy. Yeah, thank you for that. So I'm actually curious, because we had talked to your, your professional negotiator.

[00:31:27] You're you're the guru of negotiator. Let me put refined point on it. Myself and my companies were more negotiation coaches. Got it. Negotiated. Let me, let me correct back then, because you had used this a few times, you said a micro Jordans. Uh, you know, needed, feel judged, right? You win the championships and then you're the field Jackson of negotiation, right?

[00:31:52] So you coach other. People to get into win in high stakes negotiation. I'm curious as someone who does that for a living, and this is also a family business, right? So curious to know within, within a family of negotiators, how Westside family dynamic, like, cause you guys all have the skill set to. How do you relate to each other? And then also you're known as a, you know, highly skilled negotiator. So when you go places and in a social setting, how do people interact with you? Okay, well, great, great questions. Um, negotiations. This is a tool set. Which means it's neutral.

[00:32:38] It's neither good, nor bad. It depends upon what you're using it for now. We're all collaborative. We all believe in long-term success. We want to build something with people. You know, we want the people that work for our company to be happy. Happier than they'd been working anywhere else. So, yeah, we, we use these skills on each other all the time, constantly.

[00:33:01] As a matter of fact, we reinforce them because we're on each other's side. We're not trying to, we're not trying to get the advantage over anybody. We're trying to collaboratively create the best deal and stay open to the possibility that we're not a hundred percent right. So as long as you're open and open to being corrected, open to a better way, we negotiate with each other all the time,

[00:33:30] I guess, in my, my, the, the refrain. And thank you for answering that way. In my mind, there's some evaluation judgment assessment about the word negotiation, because I still adversarial, but really in your mind is collaboration. Right? Right. Collaboration and navigation. Got it. So, so that way, you know, of course, you know, we use negotiation on everyone.

[00:33:54] I get it. I appreciate you answering that. Thank you. To be Frank, um, I was a little nervous actually coming to do the podcast with you. Well, mainly because of you are a world-class practitioner, right? So I feel a little like, wow, you know, this guy is, uh, you know, way better at watching the micro expressions and the human, you know, and the interaction and the communication style.

[00:34:17] So, so I, I needed to. You know, calm myself down as I'm speaking to you. So you did a great job and good for you, man, because you know, everybody gets nervous, you know, just go ahead and do it anyway. You mean that a lot of them have podcasts? Yes. Right. So some podcasts that you are able to relax yourself and just, you know, have a good time and some kind of has a little bit more stilted and, um, not so good of a podcast.

[00:34:43] So I'm curious to know, from your perspective  what have you seen as. Good skills to what made you most comfortable as a podcast guest? Well, uh, wow. Um, I can't think of any that I thought were bad. I mean, uh, an awful lot of it is, you know, what's my approach, you know, once we get started, um, what's my approach and, you know, I'm, I'm kind of relentlessly collaborative, you know, Once, you know, I like being playful.

[00:35:20] I like, I like it being enjoyable. It's really hard for somebody to not drop into that. If, you know, maybe if, if I have an, a tough day, you may hit them with good naturedness, more than once. But generally speaking, even somebody who's having a bad day of somebody on a wrong track, you hit them with a good nature response three times.

[00:35:47] I don't know that I can think of anybody that, that, that didn't bring them out of it. So I'm a nice guy. That's actually one thing that I really, um, drill in on me. Cause you actually, as said at some point. To be immovable. Immovable. Nice. Is one of the, Oh, I liked it. Who said that at sounds

[00:36:18] on this part? Yeah. On this podcast, we say, keep an open mind, open heart, open hand. But a straight spine. Right? So, and then you said being immovable, really nice. How do you cultivate? That was that cause right. It's just practice, man. It's everything else. I mean, and you're gonna, you're going to make mistakes.

[00:36:42] I mean, don't, you know, again, it's, you know, perfection is a fool's errand really. Because then you got always going to be disappointed and then there's no success model out there that says being always disappointed. It's good for you. So, you know, just everybody that I know is getting better, you know, Tony Robbins likes to talk about, get two millimeters better.

[00:37:09] You know, our God Derek likes to talk about, just get one degree better if you're just looking to get a, a little bit better. I mean, even if you're not going for perfection, But you still got a high standard then, you know, you're setting yourself up for feedback loop of disappoint. If you're just looking to get a little bit better, the stuff accumulates fast, I mean really fast.

[00:37:34] You get, you get, you get one degree better every day, over the course of a year, you're going to look back at the year and go like, wow, why don't capable of today is astonishing with what I was capable of a year ago. I mean, I don't even remember how I was thinking a year ago. So it's just, it's, it's really taking it easy on yourself, looking for, you know, be relentless on your improvement.

[00:38:00] And you know, if, if, if you got mad today and you weren't movable, I cool. You know, you get another shot tomorrow, you know, rehearse wherever you feel like you went bad. In your head re cut the videotape that you're running in your head and that's a practice session of doing it. Right. And then, you know, you get into the data mile.

[00:38:28] Yeah. You know, one of the, the thing that intrigued you to say yes to come into the podcast. Cause I had mentioned in passing that does. Podcast is about entrepreneurs getting real about the ups and downs of creating a life of their own design. And I also mentioned that we talked about spirituality and, you know, different types of things.

[00:38:50] Right. And then you're like, Oh, that's interesting. You never been asked. Yeah. So could you share with us. I'm sure you get asked a lot about the tactical question by negotiation all the time. I'm curious to know sort of your daily practice around, you know, uh, your own spirituality or, you know, ways to calm your mind, body, heart, and spirit.

[00:39:11] Anything that you could share with us. Yeah. You know, and I'm still experimenting with a lot of different things first thingin the morning, but the two things that, that ended up early in my, in my first hour every morning is, you know, I do a short gratitude journal. Um, I I've got a, there's a, um, some music from, um, uh, that I heard at a Tony Robbins seminar quite a few years ago.

[00:39:41] Flowers of the forest, I think is, is a song. You know, I do, I do short, what is it called him? Let me see if I can tell you real quick is a dial it up every morning for just a few minutes. When I try to connect with, you know, uh, the larger universe, depending upon what your on yeah. Flowers are, the forest, Michael Michael field.

[00:40:08] Um, I'll look it up. I, you know, I, I try, I try to dial in, um, to the larger universe and connect and with some gratitude. And then there are a couple of other exercises I'll do through the course of the day. But I am very much a believer in how you get out of the blocks is, um, is going to have an impact on the entire day.

[00:40:32] Not at times, you've got to reset. Also, you run out of gas, you know, there's decision fatigue. There's, there's a whole bunch of other reasons why you need and resets. You know, my, my workouts tend to be in the middle of the afternoon. Your body's physically at a circadian low there, you know, I'm, I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm trying to not fall into that abyss of the mid-afternoon and low.

[00:40:53] Um, but you know, I'm, I'm trying to start my day out in, and then I work on, you know, I believe it's an abundant world. If your basic core mindset is a grateful is to be grateful, um, that it's an abundant world. And it is, I mean, a point of fact, if the, if the universe, if the world wasn't actually on our side, we would have been extinct.

[00:41:19] You know, we noticed the negativity out there. But, you know, we're relatively, you know, we don't got arm or we don't got spikes, you know, we ain't get saber to talents or claws or any of that stuff. If the universe was in, basically on our side, we wouldn't be here at all. So, and then there, there are other ways to count your blessings.

[00:41:42] I mean, if, if you're in the, if you woke up within 10 feet running water and no shortage of people on this planet, many of whom I've dealt with in my past life, It then wake up within 10 feet of running water. I mean, you, you, you, you, you look at the data on the globe. If you woke up and you could walk over and get a drink of water without having to get dressed and go outside, you started the day better off than most of the world.

[00:42:12] Mm. I appreciate certain realizations like that. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Um, tell us a little bit, I saw this Sunday with the Lance Armstrong interview. So, you know, you normally don't share this with others, but so tell us a little bit more about project one 20 and also what, what, what are you, what have you learned since the time that you talked to your lens to now?

[00:42:37] Whatever the new experiments you're running? Yeah. By the way, Lance Armstrong is a great guy. I mean, I like Lance Armstrong a lot and my first test on him. Cause I ended up next to him by accident and I got a mutual, we had a mutual friend. You may even know just Spencer. He's a member of the same group.

[00:42:58] We're a member of in LA. Jeff is the definition of a good people. And he talked about working with lamps. So I figured out I'm going to figure this out real quick. I said, Hey, it was the name Jeff Spencer mean anything to you. There he goes, Hey. Yeah, Jeff Spencer. He's he's a great guy. So then I cried so cool.

[00:43:18] We can talk. So I told Lance about project one 20 and you know, when I turned 60, I said, you know, I've, I've hit 30 for the second time. I want to hit 34 times. So that ends up to be one, two on it, you know, get, get to 64 times or 34 times. Actually I've expanded it out even further now. No kidding. Yeah, because you know, the medical breakthroughs these days are crazy.

[00:43:47] I mean, if, if you're keeping up on health data at all from a variety of sources, You know, five years ago, they said, all we got to do is live another 20 years and we're probably gonna get to the other side. We're going to clear a hundred would no trouble that they expect most of the medical problems that we face today to be solved sometime in the next 20 to 30 years, everything that we're aware of Nana is going to be new stuff.

[00:44:15] And that was five years ago. The S the stuff that they're coming up with almost daily is astonishing. And there, there are a lot of sources out there, like fasting, who to thought that you could consume the exact same amount of calories. Don't change your, your, the calories, the number of calories you consume, or even what they are.

[00:44:37] Don't change them at all. She just changed the gaps between your meals, and it's going to have a massive impact on your health. Stuff like that. So, uh, probably about a year and a half ago, I was thinking about the kind of changes that have occurred over the last hundred years. And then I thought, what are the next hundred being a break?

[00:44:59] And I thought. Why shouldn't I be there to say him, I'm at one 63 now I'm going to have to all right.  I love it. So, uh, if people are curious to know what Chris, uh, Chris Voss is point of view or, or were who he studies, is there any books around in meaning fasting that you direct people to. Well, uh, Mindy pelts is one of the P L Z is one of the people.

[00:45:30] I got an Instagram that I'm, I'm looking at. She's got a lot of data out there and a lot of information. Um, and there's several others that I pick up the daily feeds of on Instagram. I can't tell you off the top of the head who they are, but as soon as that's the nice thing about Instagram, it's going to funnel all this stuff at you, but by the way, I'm at the FBI negotiator on Instagram.

[00:45:52] But as soon as soon as you start looking for that stuff, Rhonda Patrick found my fitness. It's got a massive amount of, of health debt. Rhonda Patrick is a data freak. So when you read her stuff, she got a PhD herself, but sh she researches, something comes out of her mouth. It is well-researched. So her stuff is really good.

[00:46:21] When you start looking at people like many pelts and Rhonda, Patrick, and then the good thing about social media, they're going to, they're going to launch similar stuff at you, and then you can, you can pick and choose and get data from variety of sources. 

[00:46:34]I wanna read our, I wanna read a passage from your book as a way to drive home.

[00:46:40] Why you're so passionate about negotiation. And I think it is important that people hear this. You said in the book, negotiation is the heart of collaboration. Here's what makes conflicts potentially meaningful and productive for all parties. It can change your life as. Yeah changed my, I always thought of myself as a regular guy, hardworking and willing to learn.

[00:47:02] Yes, but not particularly talented. And I've always felt that life holds amazing possibilities in my much younger days. I just didn't know how to unlock these possibilities. But with the skills I've learned, I found myself doing extraordinary things and watching the people that I've taught achieve truly life-changing results.

[00:47:21] When I use what I've learned over the last 30 years, I know I actually have the power to change the course of where my life is going and to help others do that as well. 30 years ago, I felt like that could be done. I didn't know how now I do. Here's how 

[00:47:38] so I so appreciate you, Chris, for. Just packaging in, put your heart and soul into this book.

[00:47:48] A beautiful book, very practical, full of wisdom. And from my interaction, I've always felt like, wow, Chris is doing it. You know, he's living the life. He's being himself. And he'd been doing this for your first YouTube video was 11 years ago. Right? So overnight success. Then masterclass.com, top instructor million copies sold, you know, in the book.

[00:48:17] And I saw, I want to encourage everyone who's watching. Just go on and get the book. Watch masterclass. Uh, dot com course. And in practice what Chris is, was sharing, because this, this to me, a fundamental skill of what it means to be a human being, to ultimately collaborate and communicate with each other.

[00:48:37] Thank you for just being here and sharing your wisdom with all of us. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me on. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. It's been a, it's been very enjoyable conversation.

 

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