“Are you doing at least a million dollars in sales?”
I’ve always admired bold interviewers. One particular one is Andrew Warner.
Andrew is the founder of Mixergy, a place where he interviews founders for their hard-earned lessons and tactics. Andrew has interviewed over 2000 entrepreneurs in the last ten years.
He has interviewed the founders of Wikipedia, LinkedIn, Groupon, Pixar, and Sun Microsystems.
And Andrew asks the tough questions people want to know but are too timid to ask, including revenues, rumors, personal relationships, public failures, etc…
I’ve always wondered how Andrew cultivates trust so that he gets the answers he wants (without the founders hating him afterward)
Now, at last, Andrew has put all the interview mechanics into his new book Stop Asking Questions: How to Lead High-Impact Interviews and Learn Anything from Anyone
in episode 128, I flipped the script on Andrew and asked him the questions most would never ask him:
- (23:13) The atomic unit skills he uses to master in order to go from a white belt to a black belt as an interviewer (and build a good multi-million dollar podcasting business)
- (12:44) How 2000 deep conversations impact him, his network, his career, and his lifestyle
- (5:09) How podcasting as a lifestyle allowed him to do 7 marathons in all 7 continents in 1 year (while (while growing his podcast business))
- (60:50) What new tech stack and show format he would use starting today?
- (11:54) The inside-out approach Andrew recommends beginner podcast use?
- (16:16)The framework he uses to flush out the questions he finds valuable for himself while maintaining what’s valuable for the audience?
- (20:48) How Chris Rock gave Andrew Warner an idea that is at the heart of his craft as an interviewer?
- (23:30)How double-barrel questions enable him to ask edgier questions while giving guests a graceful out
- (39:43)Why being interviewed is a vulnerable experience for anyone and we offer 3 different styles of hosts can use encourage guests
- (43:34)How Andrew maintained his intrinsic motivation so every new guest is brand new and never gets repetitive
- (31:27)Which thread to follow: shoved facts or story arc?
- (45:35)Which strategy to follow: start new micro podcasts or stay within your brand?
- (49:04)How he stays connected with guests after the recording is over?
- (56:35)(bonus) A ninja technique Andrew uses to connect with all the VIPs at any conference
- (44:46)Why he started another podcast in the crypto space?
If you want to have high-impact conversations with anyone (especially your heroes), this episode is the episode you’d want to tune in.
- Stop Asking Questions the best book on interviewing money can buy
- 128 Andrew Warner: How to Win Friends (& Build a 7-Fig Business) With High Impact Conversations
- Listen to this podcast on Youtube
- Listen to this podcast in Overcast
- Download this episode
- Heidi Roizen on networking
Quotable QuotesWhen they try to create a podcast with all the infrastructure, I'll be honest, probably fail. But when they try to do themselves their own approach, they'll probably succeed. Click To Tweet Forget the fricking audience for a moment. In fact, for more than a moment and start with the basics: Who is it that I want to learn from? Who do I admire? Click To Tweet Use the technology that exists today. Don't try to duplicate what was invented years ago, and life will be so much easier. Click To Tweet The heart of interviewing is: Do I get the right guests on for my audience? Do I ask questions that matter? Do I get information that actually has an impact on someone's life? Click To Tweet When you help someone else out, you make you feel stronger. You feel like you're more in control than you realized of the world. Click To Tweet 128 Andrew Warner: How to Win Friends (& Build a 7-Fig Business) With High Impact Conversations Click To Tweet The art of a good conversation is not being afraid to talk about the topics that matter, not afraid to really bond with the person and go to what matters without ruining the relationship. Click To Tweet Going personal matters. And the way to go personal is you ask double-barrel questions. Click To Tweet When you get good at something, I think you really enjoy it. Click To Tweet When you're interviewing someone to then say, who else should I be interviewing is killer good. Click To Tweet I see the smartest people in the world are putting their attention into it. And when the smartest people in there in the world put their attention to something it's going to do, it's going to do gangbusters. Click To Tweet The best reason to get a computer is to learn about computers. Get to know it because it it's important to get to know it. And we'll see where it goes. I think crypto is in that world right now. Click To Tweet
Transcript by AI
Welcome to noble warrior. My name is see KLN noble warriors, where I interview entrepreneurs about their journey from the first mountain of success and achievement to the second mountain of impact and fulfillment. So you, as the listener can go on and navigate your own journey from the first mountain does the second mountain.
If you have any friends who could use more inspiration and permission to take that leap of faith, go ahead and share this episode with them. They really thank you for it.
Today. I have someone really special. I've always admire a bull interviewers. One particular one is Andrew. Andrew is the founder of Mixergy, a place where interviews, founders for their hard earned lessons and tactics.
Andrew has interview over 2000 entrepreneurs in the last 10 years. He has had the founder of Wikipedia, LinkedIn Groupon, Pixar, and sun Microsystems. And Andrew goes after questions that people really want to know about are too afraid to Tim it, to. Including revenues, rumors, personal relationships, public failures, et cetera.
I've always wonder how Andrew cultivates trust so that he gets the answers that he wants without a founders hating him afterward.
Now I last, Andrew has put all the interview mechanics into his new book. Stop asking questions, how to lead high impact interviews and learn anything from anyone
in our conversation. Uh, asking the Atomics unit skills that he uses to master in order to go from a white belt to a black belt, as an interviewer and built a good multi million dollar business in between. And how 2000 deep conversations impacts him, his network, his career in his life. And how podcasting as a lifestyle allow him to do seven marathons in all seven continents in one year while interviewing and growing his podcasting business.
And what new tech stack and new shore format he will use starting. The inside out approach he uses, he recommends beginner, podcasters use the framework. He uses to flush out all the questions that he finds valuable for himself while satisfying and maintaining.
It was valuable for the audience. How Chris rock gave Andrew Warner an idea that's at the heart of his craft as an. And how double-barrel questions enable him to ask NGO questions while giving guests a gristle outs
and why being interview as a guest is a vulnerable experience for anyone and Andrew.
And I would discuss it three different styles that you could use so that you can encourage guest. And how Andrew maintained his intrinsic motivation. So then every new guest is brand new and never repetitive. And which thread to follow, shoved facts or story arc, and which strategy to follow starting new micro podcast for every single one of your interests or stay within your brand under your.
And how he stays connected with guests after the recording's over. And here's a bonus one and ninja technique that Andrew uses to connect with all of the VIP's at any conference that he goes to and why he's started another podcast in the crypto space.
So, if you want to have high-impact conversations with anyone, especially your heroes, this episode is the episode you want to tune in. Please welcome Andrew Warner, the founder, a Mixergy.
Hey, thanks man. It's good to talk to you again. So as a pleasure. So this book that you had created is a book that I wish existed when I first started podcasting. Um, I wanted to open up this conversation with a passage from this book you had said, I asked myself what brought me here.
It all started. When I look for an old note for my computer and discover a list of goals. Instead, there were goals I wanted to achieve within 10 years. I felt like a failure when I read it 10 years, we're nearly up and I hadn't achieved any of them. And even though I misplaced the list in the year, since I wrote it, you lived somewhere in the back of my mind, haunting me the next day I set in what felt like and went through my list of goals.
Again, I realized I didn't really care about them. And one of the biggest items on that list was grow my online invitation site. I closed that business years before interviewing became my business and I loved it so much more than running an invitation site. So I decided to liberate myself from the demand of that list and I was free to enjoy life and pursue new interests.
So I'm curious, Andrew, how has interviewing 2000 entrepreneurs change your life
so one of the things that happened was it was, it was a list that included a bunch of work, things that didn't really matter anymore, but in my, they were in the back of my mind, the one thing that stood out for me on that list was run a marathon on every continent.
And that's the one that I wanted to achieve the most. But also the one that made me feel like the biggest loser, because I said, wait, running a marathon on every continent does not depend on the economy doing this or that on people loving my product on product market fit on any of it. I just should get on a plane and go run a marathon on every continent.
And so I said, I can't even look at the rest of the list. I'm just going to find a way to run a marathon on every continent. And I told a friend of mine who I know because he'd listen to my podcast because he'd known of my work, uh, because his friends were interviewed on the podcast, Brad Weimer. I said, I've decided I'm going to go and do this again.
And I'll start by doing one this year and then another one the next year and so on. And Brad sat me down and he said, that's not the way to do it. I said, what do you mean? Just go and do it because I think you should run all seven marathons, maybe in like seven days, do it faster. Do it more now, most people would say, yeah, right.
Most people would just say, you know, Andrew, that was a goal for before you shouldn't do that. Now you shouldn't do it ever come on, it's a marathon. Just forgive yourself, let that go. He said, do more of it. And I love that. I get to be surrounded by people like that. And so I told them doing seven and seven days didn't make sense for me because part of the goal was not just running a marathon on every continent was, it was exploring the world, talking to people, getting to know people on every continent.
And so through that conversation with them, we decided I would do it. Uh, A marathon on every continent within a year. And then I also wanted to interview entrepreneurs on every continent as I was going around. I wanted to eat the food, see the people and sit down and do an in-depth interview. And that's what I did.
And I'm so glad that I did it all in one year. It was freaking challenging, but I got all seven down in a year and it happened months before COVID hit the world. So I'm really glad that he pushed me to do it. And then on one of the last ones, I was in Estonia, uh, running my marathon in Europe and I said, okay, I'm ready to confront the rest of the list.
And that's when I sat down and looked at the rest of my goal is that I may 10 years before. And I said, this is just not stuff. I, I want to do it all. I killed the, the invitation site that's on the list. And so I was able to just get rid of that list and start a life that wasn't haunted by that. Um, so, so I'm curious, so noble warrior, so about first mountain to a second.
Was that accidental that you stumble upon interviewing? Or was it more intentional sort of, you know, it was accidental. It was, I should have, I would have loved to have done this. If I knew this existed, the idea of interviewing people and finding out how they built their companies, getting to know people, I admire, that's a freaking dream that we now all have.
Um, but I, I didn't think about it. People weren't podcasting back then. Uh, when I started, I, I think the iPhone didn't even, I know the iPhone didn't even have a podcasting app. But I was doing these events in Santa Monica and other parts of Los Angeles and Microsoft decided to sponsor it, which was great.
And Lynn Langan, who worked for Microsoft as their developer evangelists, that, um, I love the people who were here. I think you should actually start telling people beyond this, who's coming to the events and about the events. And naturally it would be good for Microsoft. It'd be great for me, for people to see who was there.
And it would also help her justify the expense that she put into sponsoring my events, because then people at Microsoft would see who was coming to the events. Anyway, she pushed me and I said, all right, I don't want to just tweet about the events. What can I do? And I thought that amazing people coming.
I just want to get to know them better. And I want to show who's coming, I'll interview them. And I started interviewing them. The first interview was with this guy, Mike, he was a chiropractor in Los Angeles who happened to be great at search engine optimization, who happened to be building a business based on that, I interviewed him to show how search engine optimization was helping businesses grow back at a time when no one believed in SEO and also to just show how, how businesses are built in a very basic level.
And then I kept going from there and there and there, and before I knew it, the founders of Airbnb were listening and they asked to be on and I interviewed them and then founders of Dropbox and so on and so forth. And the whole thing just grew. So, so let me fast forward to today, right? 20, 21, 10 plus years later, you give us a picture of what's a like to be this full-time interview or.
Lifestyle-wise revenue wise, you know, all that stuff. So that way people can get a taste of what's possible. And the context of this question is this for most people, podcasting is a very expensive hobby. They love it, but they couldn't quite make it work right. Doing what they love while banking a full-time living.
So if you can give us yes, because I think the problem is people are trying to do what I did, which is stupid. I did not try to do what Larry King did. I did not try to do what Charlie rose did by saying, how do I get on a network? And then feel like an idiot because getting on a network is too hard, especially for someone who looks like me, look at my hair.
There's no way this getting on a network. Right. So. I didn't try to do them. They shouldn't try to copy me. There's beauty in the way that the world exists today. That's so much more superior to the way the world worked before. And what I mean by that is I had to figure out how to plug a microphone into my computer.
I had to plug a microphone as easy to get the computer, to understand it, to get to computer, to record a Skype call. It was nearly impossible to it's easy, but more than that, you don't have to do it in podcast form. There's all these other platforms available. There's uh, doing it on, on Instagram live.
There's doing it on Twitter spaces, which is amazing. There's an app called email@example.com, which makes it super easy. Nothing to install, nothing to do. You just give somebody a link and they could get on and have a conversation with you. And there's a timer that you both see after nine minutes, the whole thing's done.
So it doesn't even have to be an hour long conversation. When they try to create a podcast with all the infrastructure, with the software and the microphone and the everything else they're going to, I'll be honest, probably fail. But when, instead of trying to do Andrew Warner, they try to do, they try to do themselves their own approach.
They're absolutely going to succeed. And maybe that evolves into doing the podcast. Maybe it evolves into doing broadcast television. I don't know, but it's just start with what's available today with the beauty of today. And that's what I recommend. I recommend that people start with the basics of saying, who do I admire?
Who do I want to learn from? Forget the fricking audience for a moment. In fact, for more than a moment to say, who is it that I want to learn from? What I'm going to do is I'm going to ask them and I'm going to expect accepted in the world today. People are curious about new technology and they, that if I knew interviewer figured out racket, and I could say to somebody, would you do an interview with me on this new platform?
It's amazing. I think it has legs. I think that a lot of people go, I don't have to learn this thing. They're just going to teach me basically in nine minutes, how to do an interview on racket. Great. Yes, let's do an interview. They'll teach me about racket. I'll teach them about, um, about the, uh, about my business, about my life, whatever they want to know.
So that's the beauty, keep it simple. Use the technology that exists today. Don't try to duplicate what was invented years ago, and life will be so much easier. So, so I appreciate that. How to break it down and make it relevant to the current technologies today. Right? The question was what's the lifestyle like doing and this full time.
Here's what it is, how right? I I'll tell you one of the, one of the best things about it is you said you're not in, um, you're, you're not in Argentina when I wanted to sit and focus on interviewing and just get out of the day-to-day life of frankly, I think there was a week there where I gotten a ticket because in LA you always have to drive.
I had gotten a registration request for my car. I had all these. Things that had to get done that were distracting me from the things I wanted to get done, which was doing interviews. I just got, uh, with my wife, we got on an airplane. We moved our dog and cat to Argentina and I recorded interviews from there.
Cause it doesn't matter where you are. You get to be wherever you'd like to be. And so lifestyle wise, it's beauty, you can go to anywhere in the world, as long as there is internet connection and record, or you could do what I did there places like Antarctica, there was no internet connection on Antarctica.
I took a small tape recorder with me, a digital recorder, and I sat down and I recorded interviews with entrepreneurs who happen to be on Antarctica, to do some kind of expedition, to satisfy a deep, personal yearning in their lives. So that's the lifestyle, wherever it is that you are, you get to interview and learn from the people that you're curious about.
But the other question you asked is about revenue. I'll tell you that revenue over the last five years has been anywhere from seven 50 to one and a half from, uh, from the podcast business. So is it set in the world on fire? No, but are they expenses big also? No. Right. What is it that takes to go into this.
Uh, software for podcasting, maybe you say is expensive. I happen to be using service that I don't recommend, but it's, it's done well for me, Libsyn 50 bucks, um, 50 bucks a month for Libsyn hosting, a webpage costs maybe 1200 a year. So about a hundred a month, right? Nothing much for that. Um, zoom cost me a few bucks, but at this point we're all paying for zoom.
We're not talking about big expenses. There are two people on my team who work. Part-time, there's an assistant who helps book guests. And then there's a producer who does pre-interviews with guests and helps edit the interviews and our edits, the interviews and puts them up on the site. It's a pretty straightforward operation, but at the heart of it, it doesn't matter whether I have more people or fewer people at the heart of it is do I get the right guests on for my audience?
Do I ask questions that matter? Do I get information that that actually has an impact on someone's life? Or am I just another person yapping on the. I so appreciate the, um, you know, thank you for sharing your, your numbers cause I'm wanna to get into, you know, inspiring people of what's possible. Right.
Cause you know, after all, you know, you may have, you're a family of no new kids. Congratulations. Thanks. What does it take to actually cause he, my, my Nobel warrior is all about freedom liberation, both inner and outer. So this thank you so much for sharing that. So, so speaking of freedom, I have a question for you.
How do you be more of yourself at the same time while satisfying your audience? Because one thing I love about you is you just ask really tough and edgy questions and I'm like, wow, he really went there. Right. And so, so I'm curious, was it like, can you share with us a little bit of process of how do you be more and more of your.
Uh, I love by the way, the new Yorker came out like a freaking this and that. Like, if I love that. So yeah,
I do try to understand what is it that I care about really, and not to be honest with you, what does the audience care about? So how do I keep the audience in mind and not make it's totally selfish by occasionally reaching out to people in the audience and saying, if you need any help with anything, get on a call with me and talk to me about what you're going through and I'll help you out.
What I've discovered is when you help someone else out, you make you feel stronger. Personally, you feel like you're more in control than you realized of the world that you can analyze things much better than you thought you could when you were just thinking about your own problems. And so I try to do that as often as I can.
And by doing that, I naturally internalize other people's problems. I see my own. Issues my own challenges and their problems. And then when to have a conversation, I don't have to fake it and say, I've got an audience of people who are trying to do something. How do I help them? I just naturally am empathic of the problems and the, and the goals that people in the audience have.
And I bring that up. Okay. Um, so, so I'll, I'll make it personal, right? The reason why I ask that question is this I'm very intense as, as you, could you experienced me before I asked the questions and some of the criticisms I get is, oh my God, it's so boring. Right. Cause my have a particular tone. Right.
It's it's very, anyways, I will do that. So, so versus injecting myself, being like Gary Vaynerchuk and super excited and like, that's just not me. So I'm curious to know stylistically, how do you, how have you over the last 10 years. Um, find your own style that works for you as well as people that listen to your, there was a period there where I plugged in, whatever Mike I had into, you know, there's the earphone Jack.
And then there's there used to be a microphone Jack on every computer. I used to just plug a microphone that I had into the microphone, Jack. I, it was called the microphone. Jack, why wouldn't I just plug a microphone in there to start recording? What I didn't realize is there's a hum that comes with plugging a microphone in there, especially if it's a cheap microphone.
And I started recording interviews with people in the hum would make it on. It would be like this
I just didn't know how to get rid of that. Hum. You could see it in the early interviews. I'm talking as mm. I just assume that every podcast or every, there were no podcasts, but I just assumed every recording had that. And that's just the way life is. And maybe I hadn't noticed it before, just like, I didn't notice how many people said, um, before I started recording my own interviews and noticing that I say I'm a lot, right.
Just assume that was what was there. But I also knew it was bothersome and that I don't know what to do about it. And so I said, you know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna focus on what I could do, which is I could ask questions that are so good that despite the hum, despite that problem, people will have to listen.
What is the thing that's so, so important. And so I just kept pushing myself to ask those questions. When I moved to San Francisco about almost a decade ago, one of the first things I did is I found a local winemaker who had this beautiful spot in Dogpatch. And I said, can I host a party here? And he said, sure, I said anyone who's listening to the podcast or who knows me, or is on the internet and can see my tweet, anyone.
I want you to come to this winery in Dogpatch, I'll buy you wine. We'll have a conversation. Let's, let's get to know each other. And people came over and they gave me gifts that were like that for years, I used with my kids, uh, like these books and things like that. But the best gift of all was this one guy who introduced me to his wife.
He said, I can't believe I'm listening to your voice. My wife and I hear you on long car rides to Napa valley all the time. And then he started laughing and he said, my wife, my wife doesn't believe I could listen for so long. When every time you talk, I have to raise the volume. And when your guests talk, I have to lower the volume.
And I realized, oh, I don't know how to level audio. I just assumed the podcast app did that. I don't know how to do that. I've got to figure out how to solve that, so it doesn't have to do it. But the point is he was doing it despite the fact that the audio sucked and why was he doing it? Because I addressed the problems that really mattered.
And to do that, I keep channeling, um, oh shoot. This is comedian who said that he, the world had given him all the tries possible. Uh, Chris rock. He said the world had given him an opportunity to be on Saturday night, live and opportunity to, to be in movies and opportunity to do all this stuff. And he felt like he blew it.
He was going to die in obscurity, despite all those shots. And he said the only way that he could make it was if he could bring the pain, if you can actually create one last standup act that is so painful to create that is so painful to speak out, that he, that he suffers almost through the creation of it and is in pain delivering it because it's so hard to get this stuff out and he sat down and he did that and his life changed.
And that's what I try to do with the, with the interviews. I say, I want it to be so good that I'm almost suffering going, how did I ask this person about his pain, but I've got to, and you could see that if you look at the interview that I did with, uh, one of the founders of Zendesk, I'm asking him about whether working too hard, broke up his relationship with his wife.
And you could, if you look at the video, I swear to you, dude, you look at the video, you see pain in his eyes. I'm feeling pain, bringing that up for him, but I committed that. I'm willing to go there. When I see that there's an issue there. When I'm, when I see that someone says you have to work so hard, that it could even damage your family.
I'm willing to go through the pain. Of asking it. Now, if you're going to do that, you can't just make it awkward for the other person and painful for them and leave them there. You have to figure out how to do it so that even if they don't want to answer, the person feels good about you and feels generous about the rest of the conversation and wants to take your calls in the future.
And the rest of the conversation is useful to the audience. And how do you do that? Well, that's been my quest for the last 10 plus years of every time I do an interview and I figured out, how do I get somebody to be more open? I write that system down. If it works, if it doesn't work, I go back with the transcript to my producer, to my coaches, do whoever.
And I say, why didn't this work? What could I have done better next time? And then we experiment next time. And if it does work, I write it in my Google doc. And if it doesn't work, I say, come on. This sucks. It's an awkward conversation. The person hates me. The person yelled at me afterwards. What do Y what was it about this?
What are we trying to X? And then that Google doc is what became the book. Stop asking questions. Beautiful book again, recommend the highly, um, so, so specifically, cause interviewing it's about yes, as you said, give and take, right. And, and, and then get to the core, the heart of the question, and then go directly there.
Did you come up with that question specifically beforehand? Or is it just on the spot on the spot? You see it? I, I, I've got all these clips. I wish I could put audio fricking clips into, into the, uh, books. So you could see it. I have these clips where I'm asking people the tough, personal questions, personal about finances and personal about their lives to tough ones.
And the way that I do it is a technique that you see me using over and over again. So I had this one woman on who said that, uh, she and her husband broke up and I want to understand are entrepreneurs protecting this business that they created from, from, uh, from divorce? How do I ask it when she just admitted for the first time in public that she had gotten a divorce.
Right. It was super painful and it was already tough. And so the way that I said it was, I said, is it inappropriate to ask if Keith gets half of your business, right. Is it inappropriate to ask if Keith gets half of your business, I'm asking two questions in one, it's something called a double-barreled question.
And if you look up double-barrel question in Google right now, you will see survey company after survey company, survey monkey, P pick Fu all these, they all have blog, post explicitly warning. Their users do not ask double-barrel questions. Why? Because if you ask people two questions in one double-barreled questions, they will pick the easy question and avoid the hard one.
The easy one that you didn't necessarily care about. And the hard one that you did care about they'll avoid. And so by saying, Catherine, does Keith get half your business? I didn't mean to actually say her name specifically, but it's in the transcript. So I say, Catherine, did Keith get happier? Is it inappropriate to ask if Keith got half your business, I'm giving her an opportunity to say yes, it is inappropriate to ask.
And we now side stepped it and moved on. She's taking that one easy question and moving on. Or if she says, you know what, it's actually easy enough for me to say, keep this and get half the business. Then, uh, she can answer that, which is what she said. And you could see that in the transcript, you can see it in the video over and over, not just in that interview, but hundreds of interviews.
Now this anyone ever say, actually it is inappropriate. I don't feel comfortable. Absolutely. I mentioned the founder of Zendesk. I asked him, is it inappropriate to ask if you're still with your wife or if your business hurt your relationship with your wife and he explicitly says, yes, it isn't appropriate to ask.
You could see in his eyes that he's like uncomfortable. And then you could see us then say, okay, if it is, I transitioned to something personal about my life, and then we go into business and you can see him in under a minute, laughing and feeling good. And that's the art of a good conversation. I'm doing this with a camera on me and thousands.
Millions of people listening, who knows the internet is out there forever. Right. And writing an indelible ink, right? That's what they say. The internet is ink. Not pencil. Most people are doing it over dinner. Most people are doing it over. One-on-one zoom call. It's much easier there, but if you have the right techniques, you can really take the things that, um, that I've learned in interviews and use them and have meaningful conversations with people where you're not afraid to ask the stuff you care about.
Not afraid to talk about the topics that matter, not afraid to really bond with the person and go to what matters without ruining the. I really appreciate you making it practical for anyone who may not be a podcast or interviewer, things like that. And who wants to just get better at the craft and the art, the artistry of having great conversations.
And then the visual that comes to mind as you're talking is it's about edging, right? You're pushing them towards the edge. Maybe a little bit more than ask for permission consents, right? Hey, would you become, are you comfortable with that? And reading them, Hey, I'm not comfortable, explicit or implicit.
Like they're extremely uncomfortable. And then back up and then to then that's beautifully said, it's how you deepen relationships. So that's a great segue to your approach, to having conversations as a craft. I love that you hire coaches, you study transcripts of others, yourself. You're very, very dedicated.
To this. Um, one thing I am curious. So in your book, you had talked about various approaches to hone your craft in conversations in interviews. Can you just in summary share with us some of the pillars or the building blocks of how you can, um, basically go from white belt to black belt, just to pillar conversations, conversations, interviewing.
The basic thing we've talked about, which is wonder, what am I genuinely curious about? People will respond to that. The second thing is to have a few techniques. So that's basically going for white to white, yellow belt. If you want to go a step beyond you need a handful of techniques, one of them is when you're trying to learn from someone, the natural instinct is to ask question after question after question, when we do, we come across as super needy and when we're needy, the other person doesn't respect us.
The other person doesn't want to give to someone who is so needy. And I know it's kind of weird, but most people when you're super needy, don't want to give you a lot because they're worried that then you're going to be clingy and want more information. So we don't want to sound like these needy Ang. I got another question.
Can you, how can, how did you, you don't want to do that? If you look at expert interviewers, expert conversationalists, they ask questions as questions, but often they sprinkle in questions, rephrase this as statements. So instead of how did you start your business? It's tell me how you started your business.
Now where'd you get your first customer, that little bit of guidance says to the other person, especially in interviews, I am going to direct this conversation to what's useful. Trust me, I've got this, I'm going to direct you. That's helpful. And so that's why I titled the book. Stop asking questions. We ask too many questions when we want to learn from someone and we flood them with this feeling of neediness that they want to back away from, and they don't respect you and they don't help you.
And they don't want to continue the conversation. So that's one thing we've talked a little bit about how going personal matters. And the reason that I know that going personal matters is because we bond with people that we know on a personal level, right? You don't bond with someone who you don't bond with your banker, who you're only borrowing money from you, bond with somebody who says to you, it's such a rough morning this morning.
My kids would just scream. And by the lake, do you know a way to record a zoom conversation? Because I've got to record my next call with my boss. He wants me to get a transcribed. Now you're helping the person out. You're hearing a little bit about their personal challenges. You care about them. So we want to go personal and the way to go personal is you ask double-barrel questions.
Is it inappropriate to ask about your kids is inappropriate, right? So those, those two things are, are, uh, are super helpful. Um, if I could add another one, I think we need to pay attention for shoved facts. The other day I was at dinner with someone and. We were talking about kids, even though it was a work conversation.
And I said, I've got these two kids here. It goes, wow. You're so lucky that you've got kids at the, um, who are five and seven. Those are easy, wonderful years hits much harder afterwards. Um, are they able to like keep quiet when you're recording your podcast interview? Now he moved from, he was saying something, he was saying, it gets a lot harder.
He's shoving a fact into the conversation that doesn't have to be there. He can just acknowledge that I've got kids. You can go back to the business that we were a conversation that we had, he shoved in the fact of it gets hard. And so I invited him to talk about it. What do you mean what happens afterwards?
And he started talking about his daughter and how, when she's 20 years old, she needs to find a goal in life. Now he has to have a conversation with her about what's the goal in life that she has without crowding or so much. She goes, daddy, leave me alone. You keep telling me what to do. Right? So another thing to look for is shoved facts.
And you'll notice it in conversations, people was shoving, something that matters to them. And if we don't pick it up, because we think it's just wrong or because we're prying, we're missing out on, on their screen to be heard about something that really matters. Like for him, it was, yes, he's a person who's doing.
Who's, who's a business person who has all these goals for the conversation. But he's also someone who has to go back home to a child that he needs to figure out what to do with, because he loves her more than he loves work. And if we could talk about that for a few minutes, it's liberating and helping.
So quick question there, um, I know you had talked about, he was journey as a general narrative template and then curiosity base or serendipity based conversation styles in the book. Um, the, my style is hero's journey as a generalized template, then I'll go into different rabbit holes, rice.
I think, I think you have similar styles as well. So in terms of creative choices is sometimes difficult because some let's say someone gives their shop fact it's sounds really interesting, but not may veer the whole conversation into a whole other rabbit hole. So how do you in that moment make creative decisions?
Cause I'm sure people are giving you shove fact after shelf fact all the time. How do you in the moment kind of think about navigate ways to drive this conversation so that it has some linear, logical progression rather than just bouncing all over the place. I hate to say it, but I choose to follow the shoved fact more often than I probably should.
Like we're here to record a podcast for an audience that cares about how someone built their business. They care more about where they're getting their customers, how they come up with their first idea. I just interviewed someone who runs a company called drift. You know how you go to 'em you go gas stations and you see that they've got these tree air fresheners that you can buy for two bucks.
We said those are kind of gaudy. I think I could make a business here. He created these blocks of wood that you could attach by magnet to the inside of your car. That look really beautiful and sells them on subscription. So you don't just buy one. As soon as you buy one, you're signing up for a subscription, um, like eight bucks a piece month, month, he's doing 6 million.
I should stay focused on har w I P how are people signing up? How are you getting subscriptions and all that. But as soon as he throws in a shove factor in the conversation, I go into that and follow up with the challenge that he had with his previous boss, about how he felt like he needed to do something, how he hated that his last boss wouldn't allow him to have a side hustle and how tough it was for him to, uh, to keep this on the wraps, because he was determined to build a business.
I go into those shove facts and it's my own personal style. And I've realized that I care more about the person lately than I care about the business, which is new for me, frankly, I, for most of my life, I didn't care about people. They were a means to an end. I cared about the business. Well, thanks for sharing that.
Yeah, you have to make a stylistic and personal. But, but at the same time. So, um, I want to get into that, but I want to put a pin on that. How has interviewing this journey shifted you as a person, transforming you as a person, put a pin on that. But I'm curious because usually people agree to a certain block of time, right?
45 minutes, an hour or two hours, whatever the time is. And then you get to co-create within that box. And then if you go into shelf after shop fact and it's, then, then it's beautiful because you surrender to what may come, but as unpredictable, sorry about the length of time, I have found that, um, for an interview, unless it's critical people, then give up whatever they have afterwards.
It's an incredible power that we don't have to draw within the lines. And. I just accept it and people will tell me if they absolutely have to run. And if it means that occasionally I'll miss out something because they have to run before the interview is done, it's a price I'm willing to pay. But I have to say it's rare that that happens.
That if something is really important, if the conversation is going well, people will push off just about anything. They won't push off heart surgery. They won't push up things that are critical to their business. But a lot of other things they will okay. Tactically, right. Because what I do is, Hey, you know, time's coming up.
Are you cool to say a couple more minutes like that? Unless you, unless you see that they're growing, you see that they're clearly anxious. Yeah. Keep going. Unless you see that they're clearly anxious and want to go. I don't think you should tell them that. And that doesn't just happen for interviews. If you get meetings with really important people who are much further ahead than you in life, there's a very good chance that they're going to time box you.
That the first moment when you sit down and they say, I'm really looking forward to talking to you, I should tell you I have a hard stop in an hour because I told my CFO that I'm going to go have a conversation. If the conversation is going well at an hour, I, unless you see the person feeling antsy, I don't think you should then be their minder.
They don't think you should then say, you know, it's been an hour. Do you need to write. I keep the conversation going. I trust that there are enough that they're adult enough to look at their watch and unless they're coaxed into leaving or signal that maybe they should be ending the conversation that they'll keep it going for as long as it's helpful and meaningful and they'll stop it whenever they feel that they need to stop it.
We're adults. We're not powerless. And the people that you're talking to are definitely not. Now, if you're talking to someone who's much junior than you, then you absolutely should write somebody who's brand new. Who's looking up to you who out of respect would probably not tell you that they have to go take their parents to the hospital at the end of the hour.
And the end of the is coming up at that point, you should say, I know you, you need to go in about two minutes. Is it okay if you continue or what? But if there are further ahead than you, if you're interviewing them, you keep going. Wow. Okay. Yeah. New perspective. So one of my technique as a way to ease, you know, put them at ease in the pre-interview is telling them, Hey, anytime you're not held hostage, you know, in our conversation, anytime, if I'm boring, you let me know and then you can get off.
Usually they laugh. And, but also let them know that they have full permission at any time to end this interview. Yeah. I think, I think that's right. I think they would know it totally. But I think when you say something like that, you also are signaled to them on your side and I care. So whatever it is, it's helpful to say something like that.
Some people before the interview say, I want you to know, if you say something you're not comfortable with, we can edit it out. So just let me know our, uh, I am aware that you have a hard stop at the end of the hour. I've set a timer, any little thing like that, that, that seems a little bit like you're serving them will help put them at ease and also signal overall.
I'm not a threatening person. I'm here to care about you. As much as myself, my way of doing it is saying what's a win for you. And the person will understand and say, oh, Andrew cares enough about me, whatever it is. I think that's helpful in all conversations, but I don't think we should be so, so, so much trying to cuddle them.
That we're unfortunately like I was with my four year old, my five-year-old now, uh, today the teacher sent a note saying it's going to get cold. Uh, kids should bring in long sleeves. My kid did not want to take a long sleeve in and at the last minute I put it into his lunch box. Anyway. I wish I hadn't. I wish I'd just let him accept it when we don't, when we try to overcall people in, in conversations, we're treating them the way that I unfortunately treated my five-year-old.
We don't need to do that. They're adults. They can tell us. Okay. Thanks for letting me know. I learned something. Well, I mean, I learned many, many things from your book, but this specific thing is a whole new perspective. Thank you. So, one thing I did notice that is a as a, as a, as a tick that I have, I'm wondering if you can help me address as a way to encourage my guest.
Right. I will do smile and I will nod silently that way they can continue to going. Right. But then afterwards, I look at my own image. I'm like, oh man, like so much like an idiot now, is there a way it helps? Is there a way, is there a way, cause you look like cool and collected you just, you know, very calmly, like, is there a way to encourage people to continue talking, you know, without being like a bubble head?
Yeah. Anything like anything you would say after 2000 interviews? Um, I think that. I th I don't think you should worry about it. I've been watching you. I don't think, I don't think it's an issue for you. And I think it helps people move forward. I think that I do that on, I signal it to people too. It's it's helpful.
We're in a very vulnerable spot when someone's interviewing us. We're in a very, it's a, it's a very warm and encouraging and strengthening spot to be interviewed because you feel great. Someone cares about what I have to say. This is wonderful. I'll keep on going. And it's not just interviews again. Talk to anyone at a dinner conversation.
You ask them about themselves. It's like, wow, this is great. They'll go. But it's also a vulnerable spot. You'll hear people sometimes they'll tell a story and they go, it's okay to say, am I going too long? And it just happens. And the more you could just encourage them and let them know this is what you're looking for, the better.
Um, and it doesn't have to be smiles. It could be just like this fierce. I I'm disagreeing with you. Now fight me back and let them fight you back. If that's your style, that's fine. But it needs to be some kind of encouragement. You need to know that they, they, as much as they're in control of the conversation or should feel in control, they don't Oprah Winfrey.
When she spoke to a students at Stanford university in an interview that one of the students conducted with her, she said, you know what, what people say at the end of every interview? And she says, Beyonce will twerk with me. She's basically shaking her butt on T on TV. That takes a lot of confidence. And at the end of that, Did I do.
Okay. And she said everybody does that from major movie stars and musicians to politicians and world leaders at the end of the interview, they go, did I do. Okay. And we all wonder that I'm going to wonder that at the end of this conversation, we all do. And the more you can within the conversation say, yeah, you're doing great.
The better it is. They'll keep on the coupon code. Well, you're doing great, Andrew. Thanks for really demonstrating and exemplifying. What's it like to be at ease and excellent conversations? I think 2000 interviews. All right. So what's going to go back to this. So 2000 interviews, how has it shifted who you are and transform who you are as a person?
Cause you talked about, you were a business guy. Now you care a lot more about the individuals. Is there anything else that I has shifted and transform who you are? Um, I've definitely cared more about people than before. I've enjoyed conversations and do so much more than I ever did before. It's when you get good at something, I think you really enjoy it.
And the thing about conversations, unlike anything else, is it changes with every conversation you have. So I'm a long distance runner. I've done a bunch of marathons and I have the persistence to keep on running, but truthfully, a run is a runners run. Your, your legs are just moving one foot in front of the other.
With an interview. If you do over and over and over again for the rest of your life, every person is different. Every topic is different and it's really hard to get tired of it. It's like we'll never get tired of reading books because you might get tired of one genre books, one author style, but you're not going to get tired of books in general.
If you enjoy reading, you're not going to get tired of all television. If you enjoy watching television, you might get tired of this one type of TV show. Maybe you hate sitcoms, cause they're not funny to you anymore, but you'll like these dramas, same thing with conversations. It's just, we'll never get tired of conversations will never, as long as they are satisfying a personal need.
And if they're not satisfying, a personal need, even one is going to be exhausting and. Um, thanks for that. Oh, I was going to ask you that question, because yet in the book you get really tactical about how do you keep going when there's self doubt and then your solution was to just have interviews the pipeline it's ongoing.
Right? So that's, to me, that's extrinsic motivation, which is great. And what you have alluded to just now it's more of the intrinsic motivation. Yeah. I didn't bring that up in the book. You're right. Yeah. So how do you keep your intrinsic motivation strong? So in your book you had said, for me, the mission is to learn to be a better entrepreneur.
So I let my audience learn along with me. And that's the context of you holding it every conversation, but after 2000 interviews, Sort of business conversations and so forth. I'm curious to know, like, how do you, how do you Andrew Warner keep your intrinsic motivation strong? So then every conversations is new, is fresh.
It's changing the topic to within this car, within the confines of who I am and who. My audience, um, is I think there are a lot of topics that matter. And so you've seen me at times get into how to systemize a business, because that was top of mind how to hire somebody to help me out, because that was top of mind, the times when I went down rabbit holes, like I really was fascinated by and still am with chatbots.
How do you add a chat bot to a business? I invested in a, in a couple of chat companies and I wanted to talk to people who were in the space to see what they were doing. And, and I did that. Then I got really excited about, um, this, uh, cryptocurrency crypto based, uh, um, community. I started a whole other podcast just for that, so that I can ask questions about that.
And then even within that, I started questions about it's called bitclout jam. I wanted to have conversations about big cloud, um, this, this, uh, decentralized social community. And currency. And I started asking questions about how it can be a part of it. I just recorded another episode of it yesterday that I'll publish in a little bit where I took it in a whole other direction.
I said, I think that maybe this whole big cloud thing is not working out. What can we take from this and go somewhere else? And where can we go with what we've learned? So I think within the confines of what you've decided to do and who you are, there's so many topics that matter. There's so many topics that matter and you have to just explore them.
So, okay. So tactically, right? Cause you had talked about, cause I have, I'm a polymath, how many interests and do I just keep it under the banner of noble warrior and then do a sub category of crypto or you know, personal development or relationships in just keep it going that way. Or you started a whole new podcast around this topic.
So in the world that's constantly ever expanding new technologies that are coming online. How do you navigate. Patrick knew George Jordan harbinger is so good at before starting an interview, setting up what his program is about and even saying the Jordan harbinger show is about personal growth and so on.
And if you want a guide to how we do things, go to my site and get the guide. He's so good at setting it. I think we need to do that. And it's totally fine to time say here's what my, my interviews are usually about. Thing that I'm so curious about that. I've got to ask a few questions. If you don't love it, you can go and listen to all the other interviews.
But if you, if you want to explore this thing with me, this is what today's interview is about. And I think that's perfectly fine. The audience will accept it. And if they don't love it after a few interviews and you love it so much, you can either choose to let go of them and focus on the new topic or create a new thing where all you do is talk about that one topic.
But I think they want to see you grow. I think they want to see you try something different. I think it's more than just about the topic at hand. I think when we look to somebody to teach us something, we also look for them to tell, tell us a little bit about themselves. And when we don't have that, we feel a little bit lost and feel a little disconnected from them.
Yeah. So we should be doing. Well, one of my personal evolution as a, as a, as a podcaster, as interviewers in the beginning is very much in student mode. Just like, just ask a bunch of questions and more and more as I'm on episode one 30, it's catching up to you, Andrew. Uh, one 30 a is then I get more and more comfortable in sharing part of myself.
My perspective. Yeah. In addition to obviously you have a great conversation asking quick questions without my audience. Um, that's, that's what, that's what people want to see. They want to be able to go back to the archives and see it. So that, so segue to a question I'm very curious about one. So you had, you have had 2000 interviews and, um, just that let's do some calculation, right?
Maybe 1500, right. Are, you know, uh, singular, uh, guests. So you have had strong single conversations where at least 1500 people, and then obviously your audience members is really strong and. How do you cultivate and deepen your relationship with these very special people on the planet? It's hard. I wish I'd actually found a good way to do that.
It's hard that at the end of a great conversation, that's super meaningful. You'll say goodbye to somebody and be done. And I don't know what the answer to that is over the years, I've thought about maybe I can do retreats where I get to see these people in person, you know, go pick a country, we'll go have our isolated place.
We'll do stuff together that you can meet the other great people I've interviewed. I've considered that as an option. Um, I've considered and quickly discarded the idea of maybe there's some kind of slack group, but we all talk. I don't think there's anything to be done in talking together like that. Um, I don't know.
The only thing I could tell you is that. By doing nothing. I've still kept good relationships with a lot of the people that I've interviewed. And if you don't mind, I want to get into that because some of them have become lifelong friends. Some of them probably call you regularly text you regularly. Some of you may be returning.
Some of them may just be a one-time only thing. Right? So there's a whole spectrum. How did those people, how did you cultivate those people to be lifelong friends and. I don't cultivate. If it happens, it happens. I probably could cultivate better. One of my producers, Jeremy Weiss uses software that allows him to maintain relationships with people.
And so I can see that I must be on one of his like personal list of, uh, holiday people. And so every new year has been like 10 years now I will get a message from me and my new year's personal from him. It's not like he's automated me on a thing, but I don't think he's remembering. I think what he's doing is saying, show me all the people I want to get together with on holidays or send a message on holidays.
And I imagine for 15 minutes, because it's gotta be a big list by now. He's just sending personal messages to every one of them. And I could see it's totally personal to me. It's not at all written. There's no way he could have just copied, pasted every, every, maybe some holidays does, but I don't think that that's what he does.
And that's the system. He cultivates it for me. There's no cultivation for me. It's. I might completely forget about someone for five, 10 years, and then say, I've interviewed you a little while ago and I wanted to connect. I think, uh, Jeff Lawson from Twilio, I interviewed him a while back. I didn't even think that he would know me at all.
We ran into a party at a friend's house, um, a mutual friend's house. Actually, I went to a party at his house because it's something my wife was invited to. And there was a little bit of a background there. I don't know if we can, I don't know if he remembered or not, but it's to say, it's good to see you again.
Thanks for having this over to the house. We did an interview and I thought it was really funny how you talked about sending your people into everyone else's parties so that they could promote Twilio's. It's good. And then sometimes I'll just randomly send something, but there's no cultivating. I interviewed this woman, Heidi Roizen who Harvard, uh, did a Harvard business study on and it's because she's such a good network.
Uh, she's now a venture capitalist after, uh, being a, an entrepreneur for much of her life. And she said, you know, one of the worst things about being in that case study is that suddenly I get emails on a regular basis from students. And if I respond, they will keep writing into me. And she says, I don't want a pen pal.
All they're doing is like staying in touch with me. So they have a reason to contact me when they need me. I don't want a pen pal. And I think about that a lot. Most people don't want a pen pal. It's okay to let it go. But here's a weird thing. It'll just naturally happen without trying. It's like, there was a period in my life where I just wanted to go out and date women.
Um, I'm not kidding. I want to sleep with women. And I was being very, I was being very like, persistent about it in the sense that I was going out. And you could see in my eyes that I was just looking for something. And it wasn't working at all. And then when I finally said, you know what, I'm just going to chill out.
I'm going to be environment where women are. I'm going to talk to some because I'm interested, but I'm also not going to have a goal, like an end goal in the conversation and things worked out much better. And I think that, um, I think that that's true also for these interviews. Um, yeah, it was very, very, very much a taoist very naturalist type of approach.
I love that. I I'm very much like that as well, but at the same time, life gets busy and it's not because of the lack of intention rather. It's just, you know, bandwidth issue. So hence why I'm always kind of looking for like, is there a better way that we can better keep in touch? I don't know what it is. I I've searched so much.
I don't, I don't have a good answer. Sucks because it was still personal. We have such great conversation. Yeah. I mean, you know, we come across each other's as pathway. I mean, really? I don't, I mean, it sincerely is when I think about interviews and I think about how can it be better? I really look at you as like want man.
Andrew is asking these great questions is so composed is so cool. You know, asking me questions. So, so I love that you finally wrote a book about it can be too. So segue, how are you intentional about, okay. In the book you had talked tactically about booking marquee guest, and you know, how do you go about that?
And then tactically gave a lot of new perspectives and ideas. So thank you very much for that. And so let's say if you're interested in the crypto space or in the, you know, second mountain space, whatever the thing is, right. How do you be intentional about the specific kind of guest about a specific area that you're treating.
So I recorded another episode of big cloud jam yesterday. Like I told you, at the end of the interview, you could hear me in the interview, ask my guest, who else do you think I should interview? And as he was giving me a list of people I adjusted, you could hear me say, I would like to have one person who is making money from NFTs so that I can understand how NFTs are profitable on this platform.
I would like to have one person who is, and I just kept asking and you could hear it. I think when you're interviewing someone to then say, who else should I be interviewing is killer good. The other thing that helps is to look for when they have these moments, what I call motivated moments, and we all have them.
I'm doing this interview now in a motivated moment. I'm in an Airbnb. Everything is just really challenging about recording in here. But I'm, I'm making it happen. Um, clear them a lighting. I don't know what the hell is up with the lighting. Um, but it's all I don't. I like how you've got like nice skin tones I'm looking at right here.
It's like a weird, uh, we're gonna move out of this Airbnb in a, in a few days. Um, anyway, I'm making it happen here because I've got a book coming out and I've got a team of people who are counting on me to promote the book. And because I love talking about this topic and it's fun and it's necessary right now.
And so I'm doing it. It's a motivated moment. When I interviewed Justin Kahn, one of the creators of Twitch TV among other things, I got to interview him once when he was creating a new company called exact, which would send out a personal assistant in under 30 minutes, I think to your office to help. He was launching that business.
And I said, can I interview you about the new business? And also about what happened at Twitch and everything else? Boom. He said, yes. When you find these motivated moments, it's really powerful. People will say yes, much more. The second time I interviewed him was actually not an interview. I asked him to do a course for me to create a course for my audience.
And it was at a time when he was getting heavy into social media, he actually had hired somebody who was in his house and he said, come over to the house. I recorded from his house and where I saw the person who he hired to help him get into social media, to do social media more intentionally. It was one of his experiments.
And so I was part of that. And so you find these motivated moments and people will be much more generous, much more eager, much more approachable than they would have. That's what we have to look for. And another motivated moment, I mean, is I come to Austin. Somebody says to me, Andrew, if you ever need anybody to help you out or help you figure things out here in Austin, I'm here.
I had that. This guy, Charlie, he emails me. He says, I'm a lawyer. I'm not even a tech person, but if you want to know somebody in Austin, I'd love to, um, I'd love to tell you about the space. I emailed them right away. I said, let's get together. Let's have a drink. We got together. We had a great conversation.
Um, I don't, I think that that's really important as motivated moments. I'll give you another one conference. Somebody agrees to speak at a conference, you see them on the conference list. You know, the whole, you know, the attendees, it's a motivated moment. They came to the conference, not just to collect the paycheck, usually to speak at the event they came because they want to know the topic and they want to know the people.
They're right for you to do this. I will then message the person and say, if you want to get to know the people who are here, I've invited a few of the speakers to dinner and I'd love for you to come and join us. Here are the people who I've invited that you'll get to meet how you have seven, 10 people who are speakers all sitting around and you've helped put it together.
It's amazing. And because we're in the business space, I always want to pay somebody, inevitably will say, Andrew, thanks for putting this together. I will pay my company will cover it for you. Why did they do it? Because it's great for them. Great for me. Right? Those motivated moments. They're in town for three days, they flew in, they gave up their family life.
Why to meet all these people motivated moment. I love that. Thank you so much. Um, Hmm. So, so one thing that I'm curious about, cause you hadn't mentioned, this is you got into big cloud. You, you even started a whole new podcast about it, right? What, when you meet until you're excited about to leverage, to use your superpower. That's the interviewing skills and so forth. I think we're now fortunate where every medium is encouraging conversations. Every one of them, Facebook copied clubhouse, clubhouse got big with conversations.
We're now seeing Twitter spaces being so important to Twitter that they put it at the top of their app, right? If someone's doing the Twitter spaces, it's showing up at the top of their app, every medium now is encouraging conversations. At some point, maybe they all stop. Maybe we come up with something better.
I doubt it, but maybe we might as well do it on every platform that we do. Right, but is there a specific thing that you're really excited about? So for example, NFTE people are really excited about it because it helps, um, musicians and designers to essentially have a, they call it the investible layer.
Right? So that way people can continue to do that. I am interested in that there's no investible layer for conversations yet. So it was curious to know if you have any particular insights or sort of forward looking ideas that you're paying attention to. I don't see any real practical use for crypto. I haven't yet.
But I see the smartest people in the world are putting their attention into it. And when the smartest people in there in the world put their attention to something it's going to do, it's going to do gangbusters. And so I would say yeah, to the extent that it's, that it's feasible, pay attention to that and see where you can fit in and what makes sense and be okay with things just being junkie for awhile until something becomes great.
And you can think about like the early days of the internet. Um, there were people who would put their address books online. And then in order to make a phone call to someone, they would then have to a lot turn their computers on because the computer wasn't on all day. Well, first of all, walk over to where the computer was and turn it on because the computer wasn't on all day log into the internet and then go to the page where their phone numbers were.
And it made sense to them because nothing made sense only because it was new technology. And it was fun. There was an old article that I read with Steve jobs, where he said the best reason to get a computer is to learn about computers. He couldn't even make a real case for how there's one thing that you could do much better on a computer than you could anywhere.
Then spreadsheets came around and word processors to some degree and find it made sense for most people, they're not doing spreadsheets, they didn't need word processors. He was just saying the truth, which is just get to know it because it it's important to get to know it. And we'll see where it goes. I think crypto is in that world right now.
And so. I think I like big cloud the most, but if bit cloud doesn't make it, maybe something else will pick up on its technology and the people who are there are really interesting people who are worth getting to know. And the technology that's there is pioneering and it's worth getting to know what did you start at a big cloud jam, a separate one versus just being on the, the banner on Mixergy.
Um, I wanted to be much more specific about what I was doing there, and I wanted to learn new technology from scratch to just throw away every one of the things that I hold dear when it comes to podcasting and try brand new things, to see what's out there. And so every conversation on big cloud jam becomes so specific to bit cloud that I think a general audience would after a few episodes would tune out.
But also I wanted to see, can I edit the interviews myself on Mixergy? We don't edit for content. I want people's awkwardness to stay in it. Cloud jam. I wanted to edit just to see what is it like to use the new editing tools how's descript. We use descripted mixers. But how the script really used. If I wanted to go all out and use all their latest features and they keep adding them, let's try it.
I was with Libsyn, but I don't really like Libsyn at all. It's just inexpensive and it works and we've created our own software on top of it. Um, but I switched to, uh, Justin Jackson's company. Let me look that up because that company is phenomenal and it's making me see how bad Lipson is. Uh, Justin Jackson podcast software.
Let's see red circle. Um, no transistor, transistor.fm. It's so fricking good thing is I don't even know the name of it. I just know Justin Jackson. He's like good guy. I've known about him for years. Anyway, I get to see what new software is like by exploring it just on there. I get to see what, uh, co what it's like to create new cover art.
Now it's I want to be able to go and try it as a way of staying fresh and, uh, and playing around with. Um, I love it. So in the, in the world of short form content, you know, around Supreme take talk and, and all these things, you know, how do you keep the attention and captured the attention of potential audience members?
I know that one of your key Mo is by delving to the pain of, uh, of any startup entrepreneurs, founders. So that's your key thing. Is there any other ways that you can, uh, attenuate re capture potential audience? I think we're in a world of extremes and I think we've tapped the extreme short form, but I think we haven't yet tapped the extreme long form.
I think that there's room for extremes now, and people will, will gravitate to extremes and avoid the middle. And so when, when I think about it, I think that there is room for even more long form content. We're seeing that on, on YouTube. I remember years ago I interviewed an entrepreneur who's. He and his wife had created her hair extension, a hair extension company.
It was huge just because she would sit in front of her webcam in her bedroom and talk about makeup and beauty products. And occasionally talk about how she'd created this hair extension company. And I said to him, and he said to me, Andrew, why aren't you on YouTube? And I said, because people just don't have long attention span on YouTube.
He said, watch, it's going to happen. It's already starting a little bit. And sure enough, it's been a few years. You see now our long YouTube videos are not at all. Uncommon. People will even listen to it in the background. So the pay for YouTube, just to be able to listen to, to, um, long form content in the background.
So I think that we're in a world of extreme. We haven't even tapped into the extreme long form content. Have you looked into, by the way, speaking of cohort based courses, you're already doing courses. People are paying you 299 for annual. I've done it. I probably should do it again. I've done it. I created my stuff as long form course, uh, cohort live content, and then I recorded it and made it available to others.
But yeah, I think there's a lot of, yeah, this, I think there's a lot of potential there. And then as someone who's in this space who loved education, uh, cohort-based just provides more motivation for people to finish there's camaraderie. There is, um, there's, there's a lot near continuity and so forth. So, Hey man, I know that you've got to run.
Um, I really just wanted, let me just take a minute to really acknowledge you. For exemplifying what's possible for other people who would love deep conversations. I love that you always in the book throughout the book, you keep your context really clear. You had a, um, uh, your second company fail, therefore give you really strong motivation to understand how to do this by interviewing tons of successful people.
And you share tactical, both frameworks and also tactics to really help anyone who is interested in being better at this very esoteric topic of conversations and podcasting and so forth, to be better as a human being, and then just B to B become this black belt level conversationalist. So thank you so much for the work that you do.
Rex is being a great example. Thanks. It's been good knowing you over the years, and I'm glad to finally be on here.